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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9720 - August 24, 2020, 12:49 PM

    To my knowledge, nope.

     thank you....


    Quote
    References

    [1] Nāṣir b. Alī Al-Hārithī, "Naqsh Kitābī Nadar Yuʾarrikhu ʿImarah Al-Khalifah Al-Umawī ʿAbd Al-Malik B. Marwān Lil-Masjid Al-Ḥarām ʿĀm 78 AH", ʿĀlam Al-Makhṭūṭāt Wa Al-Nawādir, 2007, Volume 12, No. 2, pp. 533-543.

    [2]    The verb used in the inscription (line Cool is banā (to build). This does not necessarily mean something newly built.  Similar usage is also recorded in the literary sources describing the construction activities of other mosques such as al-Aqsa, Damascus and al-Madinah.See A. Elad, Medieval Jerusalem and Islamic Worship: Holy Places, Ceremonies, Pilgrimage, 1999, Second Edition, Koninklijke Brill NV, Leiden: The Netherlands, p. 39.

    [3] The events of the second civil war are attested in a contemporary Syriac Christian source, John bar Penkaye, written c. 687 CE, where there is mention of the ‘sanctuary’ (i.e., al-Masjid al-Ḥarām) where some of the fighting occurred. Another contemporary Syriac Christian source, Letters of Jacob of Edessa, written sometime between 684 and 708 CE, further identifies the Muslim direction of prayer toward the Ka’ba, noting it was not the same direction to which the Jews faced in prayer, namely Jerusalem. See, M. P. Penn, When Christian First Met Muslims: A Sourcebook Of The Earliest Syriac Writings On Islam, 2015, University of California Press (USA), p. 98 & pp. 172-173.

    [4] One must tread very carefully when attempting to extrapolate historical antecedents solely on the basis of an incomplete, understudied archaeological record, especially when imagining extravagant hypothesis or fantastical historical reconstructions. For example, according to Yehuda Nevo and Judith Koran there were no popular rock inscriptions mentioning Prophet Muḥammad dated before the midpoint (112 AH / 730-31 CE) of the reign of Hishām ibn ʿAbd al-Malik (r. 724 - 743 CE) - and from this small seed emerged a jungle of strained interpretation. See, Y. D. Nevo & J. Koren, "The Origins of the Muslim Descriptions of the Jāhilī Meccan Sanctuary", Journal Of Near Eastern Studies, 1990, Volume. 49, Number 1, p. 39; idem., Crossroads To Islam: The Origins Of The Arab Religion And The Arab State, 2003, Prometheus Books: New York (USA), pp. 199, 259, 326.

    For a careful, reasoned and balanced investigation of the early epigraphic record, see R. G. Hoyland, "The Content And Context Of Early Arabic Inscriptions", Jerusalem Studies In Arabic And Islam, 1997, Volume 21, Number 3, pp. 77-102; idem., Seeing Islam As Others Saw It: A Survey And Evaluation Of Christian, Jewish And Zoroastrian Writings On Early Islam, 1997, Studies in Late Antiquity and Early Islam - 13, The Darwin Press, Inc.: Princeton (NJ), pp. 687-703; idem., "New Documentary Texts And The Early Islamic State", Bulletin Of The School Of Oriental And African Studies, 2006, Volume 69, Number 3, pp. 395-416.

    The images above are reproduced from the stated sources under the provisions of the copyright law. This allows for the reproduction of portions of copyrighted material for non-commercial, educational purposes.


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9721 - August 24, 2020, 03:44 PM

      1. Ridda wars Islam, Politics and Arab Elites  June 2020 ....by..Stanley Wilkin   University of London

    Quote
    Quote
    Preprints and early-stage research may not have been peer reviewed yet.....

    Did the Ridda Wars indicate the rise of an Arab elite that assumed control of Islam? This paper considers The Life of Muhammad to involve both a theological and political treatise preceding the Arab conquests. It deals with other prophets of the time besides Muhammad.


    .....The Ridda Wars concerned the nature of Islam in its earliest stages as a state rather than a  religion,  and  its  fundamental  connection  to  an Arab  elite.  If  the  connection  with religion   is   removed,   this   episode   resembles   a   gathering   of  clans  for  an  imperial adventure. Surely that is what it was? Fred Donner writes that it is difficult to separate civilian   and   military  aspects   in   early   Islam  but   that   was   because  there   was   little separation, the military aspects reinforced the Arab identity which was essential for the construction of Islamic identity. Fred M Donner remarks that if the Medina episode is considered,  the  evidence in  the Life  of  Muhammad  indicates  that  the entire  Medina community was structured for war and that therefore in its early stages war and Islam were inseparable. Again it is not necessary to assume the close truth of the Muhammad biographies as later redaction may have occurred....


    Quote
    2. Locating sacredness in early Islam by Mattia Guidetti

    Abstract: The article discusses the articulation of sacredness in spatial and topographical terms in the
    early period of Islam. It scrutinizes the memory of the Prophet Muhammad in Medina and Jerusalem
    and deals with the possible rationale for the location of mosques in the early period. Finally it discusses the case of the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem, a good case study for analyzing the rise of an Islamic sacred landscape within the time frame of the early middle ages.


    3. JERUSALEM STUDIES IN ARABIC AND ISLAM by Uri Rubin

    Quote
    Between Arabia and the Holy Land:a Mecca-Jerusalem axis of sanctity

    The present article offers a new reading of some key passages found in the Quran as well as in the earliest available Islamic historiographic sources. Reading these passages along the lines suggested here reveals what may be called a \Mecca-Jerusalem axis of sanctity." Unveiling this axis will shed light on the earliest origins of the Islamic sanctity of Mecca on the one hand, and that of Jerusalem on the other. This will lead to a reassessment of some views of modern scholars of Islam
    concerning the status of these two cities in early Islam.


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9722 - August 24, 2020, 04:21 PM

    Islam’s Origins: Myth and Material Evidence by dr. Fred M. Donner  lecture.. Apr 3, 2019

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koVaxbWBlr4


    Quote
    The traditional narrative of Islam’s origins centers on the career of the prophet Muhammad (d. 632 CE) in Arabia and the rapid spread of his movement throughout the Near East immediately after his death. Over the past half-century, however, scholars have come to realize that this picture is the product of the Islamic community of the eighth, ninth, and later centuries and that its goal of providing a satisfying narrative may not accurately reflect how Islam actually began and grew into the major world religion we know today. In this lecture, Fred M. Donner argues that a more historically accurate view of Islam’s origins has been hindered by the scarcity of documentary evidence from the seventh century and considers some of the key sources that may help us understand these momentous events in Islamic history.



    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9723 - August 24, 2020, 09:10 PM


            Amen. This was written in
            the year the Masjid al-Ḥarām was built
            in the seventy eighth year.

    https://www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/inscriptions/haram1.html


     Huh? Huh? Huh? Huh? 50 years before the oldest date of my own assumptions  Huh? Huh? Huh? Huh? Huh?

    And some even say that, in arabic, the verb rebuild doesn't exist so it could be here translated as build or rebuild.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9724 - August 24, 2020, 09:24 PM

    Couple of months back., Gabriel Said Reynolds. Professor of Islamic Studies and Theology. University of Notre Dame wrote an article on  Is Allah a Different God Than the Biblical God?

    well let me put some snippets from it...
    Quote
    Islam is on the rise in the United States. According to a 2017 Pew Study, the Muslim American population is “growing rapidly” through a combination of immigration, conversion, and a high fertility rate. The growth of Islam in America means that Christians are interacting with Muslims more than ever before. How are Christians responding? The media often suggests that American Christians (especially Evangelicals) have turned Islamophobic, but at the talks I give around the country I encounter more curiosity about Islam than hatred or fear. Most questions I address are not about jihad or sharia, but about Allah. Christians regularly ask whether the God of Islam is the God of Christianity. Should Muslims, like Jews, be counted as fellow believers? Or is Allah a different God, the creation of Muhammad and fundamentally unlike the God of the Bible?

    Quote
    In his 1984 book Muhammad and the Christian the Anglican bishop Kenneth Cragg writes, “The answer to the vexed question, ‘Is the God of Islam and the God of the Gospel the same?’ can only rightly be ‘Yes!’ and ‘No!’.” The concern that led Cragg to this answer, or rather this failure to answer, is one shared by many orthodox Christians interested in friendship with Muslims. Muslims disagree with Christians on a number of things, including the Trinity, the nature of Christ, and the authority of the Bible. Yet many Christians are eager to emphasize what we hold in common with Muslims. Many hold up the piety of Muslims, particularly in their fidelity to prayer, as an example to be emulated.

    The urge to recognize commonality with Muslims is felt more strongly by many Christians these days in the West, as the number of “nones” continues to grow and religion is pushed out of the public sphere. During a recent seminar on Islamic Origins at Notre Dame a Christian student raised some concern with “ideas that will inevitably antagonize Muslims,” adding, “Muslims are our allies against secularism.”


    Yet other Christians feel the challenge from Muslims more acutely than they do the challenge of the nones. The God of Islam cannot be the true God, they hold, and the spread of Islam is necessarily a threat to the Church. Nabeel Qureshi, a Muslim-background Christian believer and author of Seeking Allah Finding Jesus, argues that the problem begins with the Qur’an’s position on Jesus:

    Let’s start with the obvious: Christians believe Jesus is God, but the Quran is so opposed to this belief that it condemns Jesus worshipers to Hell ([Qur’an] 5.72). For Christians, Jesus is certainly God, and for Muslims Jesus is certainly not God. How can it be said that Christians and Muslims worship the same God?

    Quote
    Qureshi (who died at the age of 34) was responding to a controversy that started with a Facebook post by Larycia Hawkins, the first female African-American tenured professor at evangelical Wheaton College. On December 10, 2015, Hawkins posted a picture of herself wearing an Islamic headscarf and wrote: “I stand in religious solidarity with Muslims because they, like me, a Christian, are people of the book. And as Pope Francis stated last week, we worship the same God.”

    Now, Muslims generally do not consider themselves “People of the Book,” but instead reserve this title for Jews and Christians. And Christians usually do not adopt this title. For Christians, in fact, the center of the religion is Christ, not any book. It is also not clear what statement of Pope Francis Hawkins was referring to, although she was right about his belief that Christians and Muslims worship the same God.
    ......................................................................

    Quote
    ...............................” Pope Saint John Paul II, speaking in front of a soccer stadium filled with young Muslims in Casablanca, Morocco, in 1985, famously declared:

    We believe in the same God, the one God, the living God, the God who created the world and brings his creatures to their perfection.....................

    More recently Pope Francis implied as much when he signed the Declaration on Human Fraternity in early 2019, together with the grand imam of Al-Azhar, in Abu Dhabi. Therein the two religious leaders mutually declare: “We, who believe in God and in the final meeting with Him and His judgment.”

    Yet while the Church has affirmed that Muslims and Christians worship the same God it has never explained clearly its reasoning. Just as it is not enough to point to the case of the Jews, it is not enough simply to affirm that both Muslims and Christians worship one God. A question lies before us: does the Islamic understanding of that one God correspond closely enough to how God has revealed himself to Israel and the Church?

    Quote
    A thought experiment might prove this point: Suppose I were to start a new religion today, teaching a 21st version of Marcionism, that the one God is evil and created the world because he enjoys watching humans suffer? Or, perhaps, that the one God is a physical being who lives in the next solar system? Most Christians (and Muslims) would deny that my god is their God, even though we both believe in one God.

    Yet believers do not have to agree on everything about God to affirm that we share belief in him. My wife’s understanding of God is no doubt different from mine in certain ways although we are both Catholics. Nevertheless, we hold so much in common in regard to God that neither of us doubt that we worship the same God. The relationship of Christian and Islamic conceptions of God presumably lies somewhere in between these two cases. But which does it resemble more? Is there enough in common between Islamic and Christian conceptions of God to affirm that we worship him together?

    The first step is to examine the presentation of God in the Qur’an, and the first thing a curious reader will find is how the Islamic scripture repeatedly emphasizes the mercy of God. Every chapter, or Sura, of the Qur’an (except for one, Sura 9), begins with the invocation (known as the basmala in Islamic tradition): “In the name of God, the compassionate, the merciful.” In four passages (all involving Biblical characters: Q 7:151; 12:64; 12:92; 21:83), God is described in the Qur’an as “most merciful of the merciful.” And on 56 occasions the Qur’an simply names God “The Merciful One” (in Arabic, al-Rahman, a name that was used already in Ancient South Arabian to refer to God).

    Quote
    A number of scholars have argued that mercy is the primary or fundamental attribute of the Qur’anic God. In a recent article the Pakistani-American scholar Mustansir Mir writes, “I would like to begin by making a statement that, I hope, will not be taken as too radical, namely, that the God of the Qurʾān has, essentially, only one attribute—that of mercy.” Another Pakistani-American scholar who taught at the University of Chicago in an earlier generation, Fazlur Rahman, similarly once commented: “The immediate impression from a cursory reading of the Qurʾan is that of the infinite majesty of God and His equally infinite mercy.”


    A careful reading of the Qur’an, however, suggests that God’s mercy may not be infinite after all. A phrase in Qur’an 7:156 famously has God declare: “My mercy embraces all things.” Rahman, like many others, cites this phrase to make a case for the mercifulness of the Qur’an’s God. In so doing, however, he leaves out what God says just before: “I visit My punishment on whomever I wish.” The Qur’anic God is thus more complicated (and more interesting). Divine mercy does not exclude divine punishment. Indeed, Q 7:156 suggests that God can act in an inscrutable manner. He punishes “whomever” he wishes.

    Quote
    Even Pope Francis has emphasized divine mercy in the Qur’an. In his papal bull, Misericordiae Vultus, which announced a Jubilee year in the Catholic Church (from December 8, 2015 to November 20, 2016) dedicated to the theme of mercy, he wrote:

    Among the privileged names that Islam attributes to the Creator are “Merciful and Kind.” This invocation is often on the lips of faithful Muslims who feel themselves accompanied and sustained by mercy in their daily weakness. They too believe that no one can place a limit on divine mercy because its doors are always open.


    A closer look at the Qur’an, however, suggests that there are times when the doors of mercy are closed. The Qur’an speaks of a God who is unpredictable, who is both merciful and vengeful. On four occasions (3:4; 5:95; 14:47; 39:37) the Qurʾan describes God as “avenger” or “vengeful,” in Arabic, dhu intiqam. It is true that God guides humans by sending them prophets in the Qur’an. But he also destroys people who deny those prophets. In a number of Suras (notably 7, 11, 26, 37, and 54) the Qur’an tells tales—known to scholars as “punishment stories”—of Biblical (Noah, Lot, Moses) and non-Biblical (Hud, Salih, Shuʿayb) prophets whom God sends to offer instruction to their peoples on proper faith. Every time, however, the people disbelieve, and every time they are destroyed by a flood, by a rain of stones, or by a cosmic “shout.”

    Quote
    There is something more interesting, too, about the Qur’anic God’s enmity towards unbelievers. He does not simply judge them. He does not simply punish them. He actively leads them astray. In Q 13:27 the Qur’an explains, “Surely God leads astray whomever He pleases and guides to Himself whoever turns (to Him).” Elsewhere the Qur’an declares: “Those who deny Our signs are deaf and dumb, in a manifold darkness. Allah leads into error whomever He wishes, and whomever He wishes He puts him on a straight path” (Q 6:39). The first Sura of the Qur'an has the believer pray to God, “Guide us on the straight path (sirat)” (Q 1:6). This prayer makes sense because God is capable of guiding humans elsewhere. In fact in Sura 37 we find God (speaking of the wrongdoers—and their wives) telling the angels, “Guide them on the path (sirat) of hell” (Q 37:23).


    The God of the Qur’an is also not above using tricks. In its third Sura the Qur’an alludes to some enmity among the Israelites surrounding Jesus and declares, “They plotted and God plotted. God is the best of plotters” (Q 3:54). This cryptic declaration is usually explained with a story connected to the famous Crucifixion verse of the Qur’an (Q 4:157), which speaks of something “appearing” to the Israelites on the day of the Crucifixion.

    Muslim commentators tie these verses together by explaining that when God saw Jews “plotting” to kill Jesus he transformed someone else into a likeness of Jesus (some traditions make this a friend, even Peter, while other traditions make this an enemy of Jesus: Judas). This “someone else” was crucified while God raised Jesus through a hole in the roof of the house where he was staying up to him in heaven. This was God’s “counter-plot” against the Israelite enemies of Jesus.

    Quote
    The Qur’an also speaks of how God and Satan “adorn” or “decorate” (the Arabic verb is zayyana) bad works to make them look good. A number of passages have Satan responsible for this sort of deception. In Sura 6:43 the divine voice of the Qurʾan asks why the unbelievers do not turn to God, and then gives the answer: “Then why did they not entreat when Our punishment overtook them! But their hearts had hardened and Satan had made what they had been doing seem decorous (zayyana) to them.”


    But God can “decorate” evil deeds too: In Qurʾan 27:4 it is God who declares: “As for those who do not believe in the Hereafter, We have made their deeds seem decorous (zayyanna) to them, and so they are bewildered.” He purposefully deceives them, for He does not love them: “God does not love any sinful unbeliever” (Q 2:276) and “God does not love the faithless” (Q 3:32). One passage (Q 40:10) even suggests that God hates the unbelievers (depending on how one interprets the Arabic word maqt).

    In thinking through this jarring language, however, readers should keep two things in mind. First, it is important to distinguish between the fundamental disposition which the God of the Qur’an manifests towards humanity: first, in creation itself, and, second, in the sending of prophets. Time and again the Qur’an speaks of the goodness of creation, describing that goodness as a gift from God that should provoke gratitude (tellingly, the Arabic word for an unbeliever, kafir, can also mean an “ingrate”). The Qur’an’s job is to call attention to this goodness. In one passage it does this simply by asking man to think about where his food comes from:

    “Let man consider his food: We pour down plenteous water [from the sky], then We split the earth making fissures in it and make the grain grow in it, as well as vines and vegetables, olives and date palms, and densely-planted gardens, fruits and pastures, as a sustenance for you and your livestock” (Q 80:24-32).

    Creation itself is thus an act of divine beneficence, and so is the act of reminding forgetful humans of creation’s goodness. In a class I once taught in an Indiana state prison, a Muslim inmate explained why he believed in God by pointing out the barred window and exclaiming, “God made everything in the world for us.”

    Islamic tradition makes an interesting distinction between the two words which describe God in the opening invocation of the Qur’an: “compassionate [rahman]” and “merciful [rahim].” According to some theologians God is compassionate (rahman) in extending to all of humanity the gifts of creation. God is merciful (rahim), meanwhile, in forgiving believers (and believers alone).

    Second, the wrath of the God of Islam is not so different from the wrath of the God of the Bible, who, too, can be vengeful and carry out plots against unbelievers. As Ulrich Lehner has recently put it in the title of his book . . . God is Not Nice. How else is one to understand the hardening of Pharaoh’s heart and the drowning of the Egyptians in the Sea? True, the New Testament communicates clearly the tender love of God for all of the world (“For God so loved the world,” John 3:16 says, not “For God loved some people in the world”). But the New Testament certainly leaves a place for divine vengeance. Quoting Deuteronomy, Paul warns the Romans, “Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God; for it is written, ‘Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord’” (Rom 12: 19).

    It is a common belief in divine goodness, however, that best supports the same-God position. Alluding to certain Qur’anic turns of phrase, Nostra Aetate says of Muslim, “They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men.” The Council Fathers were right to emphasize these divine attributes that Muslims hold in common with Christians, but the attribute of goodness stands highest. Among the ninety-nine names of God in Islamic tradition is latif, “kind,” “gracious,” or “good” (another is al-malik, “the king”). It is the fundamental aspect of divine goodness, of divine mercy manifested in the gifts of creation and the sending of prophets, that allows us to answer “yes” to the same God question.

    This is not to mean that theological controversy will or should end. Muslims through the years have attacked Christian doctrines of the Trinity and the Incarnation. It did not prevent the high court of Malaysia in 2014 from banning the use of the word “Allah” by Christians. Still, while it is none of my business to make theological propositions on behalf of Muslims, it is right to point out that the Qur’an itself agrees that we worship the same God. In Q 29:46 the Qur’an has God announce: “Say: 'We believe in what has been sent down to us, and what has been sent down to you; our God and your God is One, and to Him we have surrendered.”

    Nor should this “yes” answer compromise the missionary impulse that Jesus gave to the Church in the Great Commission. Christians rightly hold that the Church has something to teach Muslims. God has revealed his nature in a special way through the course of salvation history. In a special way he has humbled himself to be “God with us” in the Incarnation. Yet, we can also recognize that the Qur’anic description of God fundamentally agrees with what the Church knows of the goodness and sovereignty of God. For this reason Saint John Paul II proclaimed in front of that crowded Moroccan soccer stadium, “We believe in the same God!” For this reason Christians can rightly see Muslims as brothers and sisters, and, yes, allies in a struggle with aggressive secularism. We are brothers and sisters not only because of our shared humanity, but also because of our shared faith in God.


    well read it all the link.. Bottom line is .. god deceives as well as Satan deceives as Quran says    according to  dr. Gabriel Said Reynolds  verse 6.43  ....  my goodness that is big article.. i need to read again and edit it..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9725 - August 25, 2020, 08:20 AM


    Amen. This was written in
            the year the Masjid al-Ḥarām was built
            in the seventy eighth year.
     Huh? Huh? Huh? Huh? 50 years before the oldest date of my own assumptions  Huh? Huh? Huh? Huh? Huh?

    And some even say that, in arabic, the verb rebuild doesn't exist so it could be here translated as build or rebuild.


    It is the Dome.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9726 - August 25, 2020, 09:33 AM

    It is the Dome.


    That is my thinking too...........................

    Otherwise,

    Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

    Hadith 223 of the "'Sunna" book of Abdallah Ibn Ahmad :

    "According to my father (Ahmad Ibn Hanbal) / Mou'ml ibn Ismael / Sufiane / ibn Kathir following Amrou Obayd : Abou Hanifa (founder of the Hanafi School one of the 4th main Schools of Islamic Law among Sunnis) was asked about the faith of a man who knows that the Ka'aba is the truth and that it is the House of God but who has doubts about its location, between Mecca or Khorassan ? Abou Hanifa sates that his faith is valid. The same goes for the one who believes in the prophethood of Muhammad but who doubts between the Muhammad of Medina or other Muhammads"

    Very weird hadith.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9727 - August 25, 2020, 12:08 PM

    It could attest the fact that at early times there was an issue with the place of the  Kaba. In my view, this hadith validate this. This issue is rationale and logic as the Kaba was (from the Quranic text he owns) for me ... discovered/invented by Zubayr and serves him as a propaganda stuff against Abd al Malik.
    The fact that the Dome of the Rock was taken for the Masjid al-Ḥarām  attested by the inscription: "Amen. This was written in  the year the Masjid al-Ḥarām was built  in the seventy eighth year", attests even more that there was a confusion in 700 about where was the Kaba of the Prophet and the name attached to it.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9728 - August 25, 2020, 12:21 PM

    It could attest the fact that at early times there was an issue with the place of the  Kaba. In my view, this hadith validate this.

     
    "Masjid al-Ḥarām .".... that word is not in Arabic Quran the book .. neither in those  in Arabic Quran manuscripts before it became a book ...  Or am I wrong?? ..

     if it is NOT there in Quran..then why worry about this hadith that is allegedly said by some son of  "Ahmad ibn Hanbal"  ...??

    That guy grandfather was NOT EVEN THERE IN LIQUID FORM when Quran manuscripts were written..  I mean he lived  during the years .....780–855 .....

    Quote
    This issue is rationale and logic as the Kaba was (from the Quranic text he owns) discovered/invented by Zubayr and serves him as a propaganda stuff against Abd al Malik. 


    So ...you consider  Islam of Umayyad Caliphate and Abbasid Caliphate in the present Saudi Arabia is nothing but the extension of those Ridda wars of  earlier Islam /proto Islam of so-called rightly guided Caliphs??  .. whom you some times call them as Templar knights or Templar thugs((depending upon whose side you are in)) of Islam/proto Islam .,
      that is before these two guys Abd Allah ibn al-Zubayr and Abd al Malik came on the scene??

    I guess it makes sense as Christianity .. as in "CHRIST AS SON OF GOD" is not accepted by many Christian sects  of that time around the Present geographical area of  Syria... Israel.. Jordan....

    but is it not difficult to explain those rock inscriptions in Arabic that couples to proto-Islam near the town Taif  .. which is  close to present Mecca?? 

    This actually makes me wonder Islam is the product of elite Arab Christians and Arab Jews of that time ... one kind of Islam is from Umayyad Caliphate and the other one from Abbasid Caliphate.. the so-called shia-sunni split..

    Quote
    The fact that the Dome of the Rock was taken for the Masjid al-Ḥarām (attested by the inscription) attests  even more that there was a confusion about where was the Kaba of the Prophet.


    what confusion ?? you said yourself "that they just used it as their Propaganda to loot and booty  and to become rulers/Caliphs in the name of Prophet ... "

    I hope I am making some sense by saying all that dear Altara...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9729 - August 25, 2020, 04:33 PM

    Quote
    So ...you consider  Islam of Umayyad Caliphate and Abbasid Caliphate in the present Saudi Arabia is nothing but the extension of those Ridda wars of  earlier Islam /proto Islam of so-called rightly guided Caliphs??... that is before these two guys Abd Allah ibn al-Zubayr and Abd al Malik came on the scene??


     "Ridda wars" has never existed as such. The conflict between Malik and Zubayr  has nothing to see with what recounts the Muslim narrative and  is for the rule of Iraq  which has never accepted the Damascus rule

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9730 - August 26, 2020, 10:14 AM

    "Ridda wars" has never existed as such.

    you mean to say., there were NO ridda wars., or  there were some sort of conflict with in the converted community and some became apostates hence there were intra-Muslim fights between Muslim/proto-Muslim community??

    you are shocking & shaking  me and my roots of Islam dear Altara..    Are you working in a  university  and  written publications and also writing on early Islam/Islamic history??

    or are you just waiting for your thought/Ideas  on  early Islamic history to become a book  from Allah or any other your God .. DID YOU PUBLISH ANYTHING?? ANY BLOGS??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9731 - August 26, 2020, 10:32 AM

    Quote
    you mean to say., there were NO ridda wars.,

    I mean "Ridda wars" as portrayed by the narrative has never existed.
    Quote
    or  there were some sort of conflict with in the converted community and some became apostates hence there were intra-Muslim fights between Muslim/proto-Muslim community??


    What you write is the Muslim narrative. I think it is wrong: there was no "converted community" therefore no "apostates" of any sort.
    Quote
    you are shocking & shaking  me and my roots of Islam dear Altara..   


    All what you've been taught is historically  wrong/false whatever the term. Nevertheless it is what the Muslim thinks it historically happened.
    Quote
    Are you working in a  university  and  written publications and also writing on early Islam/Islamic history??

    Nope.

    Quote
    or are you just waiting for your thought/Ideas  on  early Islamic history to become a book  from Allah or any other your God ..

     

    From me.
    Quote
    DID YOU PUBLISH ANYTHING?? ANY BLOGS??


    Nope.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9732 - August 26, 2020, 07:07 PM

    I mean "Ridda wars" as portrayed by the narrative has never existed.

    I guess your thoughts are similar to what is written here in this publication .. it is not even published...
    Quote
    ..Ridda wars Islam, Politics and Arab Elites by Stanley Wilkin  ..

    The Ridda Wars concerned the nature of Islam in its earliest stages as a state rather than.a  religion,  and  its  fundamental  connection  to  an Arab  elite.  If  the  connection  with.religion   is   removed,   this   episode   resembles   a   gathering   of  clans  for  an  imperial adventure ..............

    .........The followers of a holy figure tend to exaggerate their hero, seen also in the story of Jesus. Apart from the claims of his followers there is no reason to believe that Jesus had any.great importance during the time he lived. Both Jesus and Muhammad were constructed.by literary products, with  endless  doubt placed   on  their   careers..........


    that is a pre-publication .. please read it..

    Quote
    What you write is the Muslim narrative. I think it is wrong: there was no "converted community" therefore no "apostates" of any sort.

    All what you've been taught is historically  wrong/false whatever the term. Nevertheless it is what the Muslim thinks it historically happened.Nope.

    well in absence of any other history .. what people taught is what they believe., it is not their fault..
     
    Quote
    From me.
    Nope.

    this really does not make sense to me ., you joined the forum on June 23, 2016.. four years ago.,..  your thoughts on the subject are quite different and unique .. by this time you could have written them., 

    why are you not pubing them??
    what is the problem  of you telling your understanding of origins of Islam?? 
    WHY ARE YOU NOT WRITING IT??   
    Are you afraid of something??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9733 - August 27, 2020, 06:17 AM

    Quote
    that is a pre-publication .. please read it..


    As I already said all this history of early Islam has to be disconnected from the "Islamic"context  recounted by the narrative; this is not the case in this paper.

    Quote
    well in absence of any other history .. what people taught is what they believe., it is not their fault..


    I did not say the contrary.

    Quote
    this really does not make sense to me ., you joined the forum on June 23, 2016.. four years ago.,..  your thoughts on the subject are quite different and unique .. by this time you could have written them., 


    It's not as simple as you describe it (yawn...)
    Quote
    why are you not pubing them??
    what is the problem  of you telling your understanding of origins of Islam??
    WHY ARE YOU NOT WRITING IT??   
    Are you afraid of something??


    1/It is not finished
    2/ There is no problem
    3/I'm writing it
    4/Nope.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9734 - August 27, 2020, 11:02 AM

    It could attest the fact that at early times there was an issue with the place of the  Kaba. In my view, this hadith validate this. This issue is rationale and logic as the Kaba was (from the Quranic text he owns) for me ... discovered/invented by Zubayr and serves him as a propaganda stuff against Abd al Malik.
    The fact that the Dome of the Rock was taken for the Masjid al-Ḥarām  attested by the inscription: "Amen. This was written in  the year the Masjid al-Ḥarām was built  in the seventy eighth year", attests even more that there was a confusion in 700 about where was the Kaba of the Prophet and the name attached to it.


    What is funny from this hadith is :

    - it talks about Khorassan as an alternative location for the Kaa'ba ; this is interesting given the link with this region and the Abassids and Abu Muslim ; however, this is confusing with Jacob of Edessa chronicle that mention a Kaa'ba in the Sham region

    - it talks about different Muhammad just like Muhammad is not a proper name but a surname, knowing it was a tradition in the SDassanian empire to bear surname, and Mu'awiya for example had a surname as it wasn't his real name as the muslim tradition wrongly says
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9735 - August 27, 2020, 11:33 AM

    Quote
    - it talks about Khorassan as an alternative location for the Kaa'ba ;


    This idea is older, one can find it in some 6th c. chronicle (Stephanus of Byzantium, (I did not check...) about an Abraham dome) it is not Khorassan but Kirman, in any case, the East.

    Quote
    however, this is confusing with Jacob of Edessa chronicle that mention a Kaa'ba in the Sham region


    It could be the Dome to which Muslims at that time prayed.

    Quote
    - it talks about different Muhammad just like Muhammad is not a proper name but a surname, knowing it was a tradition in the SDassanian empire to bear surname, and Mu'awiya for example had a surname as it wasn't his real name as the muslim tradition wrongly says


    I am dubious about all this stuff of true/false Muhammad, etc. For me, this stuff has not relation with the the author(s) of the Quran (which is my topic... the rest, I do not care...)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9736 - August 27, 2020, 12:45 PM

    .....................................

    It's not as simple as you describe it (yawn...)
    1/It is not finished
    2/ There is no problem
    3/I'm writing it
    4/Nope.
    .............................................................

    No...Noooo.. no Yawning., Just slug it away.,  I fully understand your 1 to 4 points .. yes it does take time to research.. write.. rewrite.. re-edit .. costs money drains time & energy...specially  if you are writing a ground breaking book on early Islamic history ((which I THINK YOU WILL)) that simplifies early Islam and origins of Quran ...  unlike   1000s  of books and publications   that run in circles  taking some silly hadith or few Quran verses here and or there or following Islamic stories starting with Ibn Ishaq.....    BUT I CAN NOT AGREE  WITH THAT  FIRST STATEMENT.., because of following reason.,

    by now you should have written a critical review of 20 pages or so.,   that  questions almost 98% of early Islamic publications from academics  on Quran as well as history of caliphate Islam., more importantly that  puts stamp of your name....  that that your thinking is way different from others in the field  and it is original., 

    in fact That 20 page critical review you can easily write by putting together some posts of your 2500 or posts THAT YOU WROTE IN TO THIS FORUM.......

    anyway  my good wishes to you .. and I do hope I will read your book..
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9737 - August 27, 2020, 04:21 PM

    Quote
    by now you should have written a critical review of 20 pages or so., ...that that your thinking is way different from others in the field  and it is original., 


    Academics do not care (at all) of this kind of things. Especially (but not only) in Quranic Studies.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9738 - August 27, 2020, 07:48 PM

    This idea is older, one can find it in some 6th c. chronicle (Stephanus of Byzantium, (I did not check...) about an Abraham dome) it is not Khorassan but Kirman, in any case, the East.


    The Dome of Abraham is mentionned in the Khuzistan Chronicle but htere is no information about the location (probably the Sinai desert though given the Bible narrative) so no link with Khorassan.

    Quote
    I am dubious about all this stuff of true/false Muhammad, etc. For me, this stuff has not relation with the the author(s) of the Quran (which is my topic... the rest, I do not care...)


    I agree that Muhammad and the Quran are not connected but I am interested in the whole puzzle so ; now, reading armenian sources from diofferent centuries, we see a different story about Muhammad and especially different geographical locations where he alledgedy lived ; this is probably a consequence of an evolution of his life in the muslim narrative and that narrative probably evolved after Ibn Hisham contrary to the muslim fairy tales.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9739 - August 27, 2020, 08:13 PM

    Daniel Brubaker - How similar are early Quran manuscripts to each other?
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=6s&v=kGGSTzc-5YE
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9740 - August 27, 2020, 09:10 PM

    Daniel Brubaker - How similar are early Quran manuscripts to each other?
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=6s&v=kGGSTzc-5YE

    thank  you  for that link dear zeca.. I wonder whether you have links to  any of his  publications  on that subject.. similar to this book



      A review of that book

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9741 - August 27, 2020, 09:22 PM

    Juan Cole - Hijazi Rock Inscriptions, Love of the Prophet, and Very Early Islam: Essays from Informed Comment

    https://www.academia.edu/43816376/Hijazi_Rock_Inscriptions_Love_of_the_Prophet_and_Very_Early_Islam_Essays_from_Informed_Comment
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9742 - August 27, 2020, 09:24 PM

    thank  you  for that link dear zeca.. I wonder whether you have links to  any of his  publications  on that subject..


    Not publications but you can find his other videos here: https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCP-g6LEOwXpMwu5PhMCIxhw/videos
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9743 - August 27, 2020, 10:13 PM

    Quote
    I agree that Muhammad and the Quran are not connected but I am interested in the whole puzzle


    Quran author(s)  puzzle is sufficient for me ; I do not care about the narration of thousand figures whose the narrative recounts the story which is wrong as it recount it from a context which have never existed: Mecca/Kaba. The men are real for some but their Islamic context is wrong since it never existed.

    Quote
    so ; now, reading armenian sources from different centuries, we see a different story about Muhammad and especially different geographical locations where he alledgedy lived ; this is probably a consequence of an evolution of his life in the muslim narrative and that narrative probably evolved after Ibn Hisham contrary to the muslim fairy tales.


    The story of Muhammad was build and expanded through time.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9744 - August 28, 2020, 03:43 PM

    let me put Altara post in pointers
    1). Quran author(s)  puzzle is sufficient for me ;

    2).  I do not care about the narration of thousand figures whose the narrative recounts the story which is wrong as it recount it from a context which have never existed: Mecca/Kaba. The men are real for some but their Islamic context is wrong since it never existed.

    3). The story of Muhammad was build and expanded through time.

    I absolutely agree with you there..... reading Quran...Focusing on  Quran and Quran manuscripts is more important and  will tell us more information on origins of Islam... than this Mecca.. Medina.. Muhammad. Zam-zam story..

    6 years ago Zaotar wrote a post n this forum

    Quote
    I think it is possible to understand the earliest beginnings and the later period (the part Zimriel is interested in).  The middle part, I think may never be possible to disentangle.  In this, I think the emergence of Islam closely parallels the emergence of Christianity.  We can explain the environment it emerged in, and show how it is derivative of older features.  We can explain the later movements, when we have good texts.  But the transition is hidden because all of the texts which document it *are trying their best to obscure it* -- all we have is Heilsgeschichte.  So the historical Muhammad is no more accessible to us than the historical Jesus, sadly.

    The reason I have such a strong opinion against Mecca is because it makes the Qur'an's development incomprehensible.  And that is exactly what it is supposed to do!  The entire reason for the Meccan narrative is to make it impossible to understand how the Qur'an emerged, so that you will conclude that God has handed it down, isolated from any human society.  You are supposed to isolate the Qur'an from its late antique context, and situate it within a remote pagan valley.  Once the Meccan narrative is abandoned, and the Qur'an is analyzed within a late antique context, it becomes relatively easy to explain many of the most puzzling and complex aspects of the Qur'an and its development.  With the Meccan narrative in place as a bedrock assumption, by contrast, the Qur'an's origins and its earliest textual layers become essentially random and incoherent, which allows it to be used for theological speculations.

    Medina does not pose similar problems in understanding the Qur'an, and makes far better sense, so it is not nearly as problematic, and can be reasonably accepted as part of the historical background of the Qur'an's compilation (this does not mean it *was* the background, but just that it at least makes sense, which cannot be said for Mecca).


    it makes more sense to me now...  Now Altara .. on that 1st point .. you write..
    Quote
      1). Quran author(s) puzzle is sufficient for me ;


    Do you think there were multiple authors for those early Quran manuscripts..??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9745 - August 28, 2020, 05:46 PM

    Quote
    Do you think there were multiple authors for those early Quran manuscripts..??


    Yes. However, I will not go any further.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9746 - August 30, 2020, 09:17 AM

    Fred Donner - Some Early Arabic Inscriptions from Al-Ḥanākiyya, Saudi Arabia

    https://www.academia.edu/1013513/Some_Early_Arabic_Inscriptions_from_Al_Ḥanākiyya_Saudi_Arabia_1984_
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9747 - August 30, 2020, 09:22 AM

    Fred Donner - The Study of Islam’s Origins since W Montgomery Watt’s Publications

    Video: https://media.ed.ac.uk/media/The+Study+of+Islam+++s+Origins+since+W++Montgomery+Watt+s+Publications++Professor+Fred+Donner/1_1buy2o5q

    Transcription: https://www.ed.ac.uk/files/atoms/files/professor_fred_donner.pdf
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9748 - August 30, 2020, 09:31 AM

    Fred Donner - At the Origins of Islam
    Quote
    In this episode of Ventures, Fred Donner discusses the challenges of studying early Islam and the narratives of Islam’s emergence in the 7th century CE. Drawing on decades of research, Donner complicates the conventional historical account by raising questions about the boundaries of the early Muslim community, or as he calls it, the “Believers Movement,” and the Jews and Christians that may have constituted it.

    https://soundcloud.com/uchicago-cmes/fred-donner
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9749 - August 30, 2020, 09:37 AM

    Ilkka Lindstedt - Critical Approaches to Pre-Islamic Arabia and Early Islam

    https://www.religiousstudiesproject.com/podcast/critical-approaches-to-pre-islamic-arabia-and-early-islam/
    Quote
    Given the way in which many introductory courses present the history of early Islam and pre-Islamic Arabia, we may be tempted to think that the historical facts were well established and the narrative uncontested. However, this is far from the case. What evidence do we actually have from this period, and how may it challenge the conventional narratives that have become canonised in sacred and academic histories? What misconceptions might be challenged by modern epigraphic work, or the application of Social Identity theories to ancient texts? And why might this matter for contemporary Islam, contemporary Islamic Studies, and the critical study of religion more broadly? Joining Chris to discuss these questions, is Dr Ilkka Lindstedt of the University of Helsinki.

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