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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9420 - June 15, 2020, 05:03 PM

    Altara,


    Yes.

    Quote
    You dont have proof of 2:125 being THE factor for the building either.


    I never said (TM) that I have proofs. I (just) say that the idea of Gallez (not me...) is (very) interesting and can be the reason of the building as I have not found any explications that could sufficiently convince me of the contrary. Did I make myself clear (at last)?
    Plus, this idea goes very well with my own work. I think that I would be arrived to the same idea without Gallez. But thanks to him. (For this, not the rest...)


    Quote
    The article I posted from Moshe Sharon shows how central this Temple Mount was for large groups.

     

    In 600-630 What groups apart the Jews? None.

    Quote
    You can't know if 2:125  or any other factor was decisive in the building. We do know that the contents of the Koran doesnt seem to ahve been of influence in other matters.


    I cannot know, for sure. But I have a brain. A brain that tell me that Mecca/Kaba did not exists, that Arabs who come to Yarmuk are not the people who have written down the Quranic texts. Therefore if they have it (not necessarily all) they have to understand what it says and follow what it induces to them: Abraham and Ishmael (themselves) built a house to God in the texts. They do the same/imitate/copy, whatever, what they have read in 2:125-127, because they felt compelled to do it as sons of Abraham and Ishmael, in Jerusalem, where there was a House of God before.
    I consider my brain is sufficient to take this idea seriously. You're not agree, Why not. Bring others factors. Not refutable like the Sharon article.

    Quote
    The contents seemed to be a side show. The content was also not revolutionary projecting shattering new ideas.

     

    This is not the topic here.

    Quote
    7 th C people were talking about the eschaton and the Temple Mount,


    The Jews were talking about the Temple Mount and nobody else or bring sources.

    The eschaton only was shared with the Christian.Christian eschaton contrary to the Jews has nothing to see with the rebuild of the Temple, but to the return of Jesus: it lasts since the beginning of Christianity. (I know it I was raised Catholic...) It is not a preoccupation which start in the 7th.c.


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9421 - June 15, 2020, 05:08 PM

    Altara,

    Yes

    Quote
    Why do you say I can't differentiate btw early and late sources? I think Sharon does that excellently. You don't need to agree with everything he says to find the article interesting.

    The article explains why there is a building in 637 with the Muslim narrative : 200 years later. It is irrelevant and frame people like you.

    Quote
    I think you are suffering of tunnel view. Whatever doesnt match your findings, you relate to incompetence.


    Nope to just not have sources (before Islam and concerning Arabs) which ground what you say. Not the 9thc. sources. Sharon bring the Muslim narrative, nothing else. One cannot take the 9thc. sources to explain what happened in the 7th.c concerning Islam.


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9422 - June 15, 2020, 06:29 PM

    The Temple Mount has been a huge problem for all the Empires around there. One Roman Emperor tried to solve it by allowing a Temple to be built, another razed the lot.

    Is the Islamic one a third imperial attempt, install another religion?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9423 - June 15, 2020, 09:05 PM

    Quote
    One Roman Emperor tried to solve it by allowing a Temple to be built


    Yes, he would have been the Messiah.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9424 - June 16, 2020, 12:23 PM

    mundi points out to me ...
    1). Moshe recognises the lateness of the sources..

    2). . But he mentions Sophronius who is an eye-witness.

    3). You ahve to deal with what there is, not with what you wish you had.

    4). The article is not about the genesis of the Quran.

    5). I placed it here to show there is no need for 2;125 to have been read and acted upon seen the LA context.

    Well   Moshe Sharon did exactly what you did in point 5 of your post dear mundi .,  He took Sophronius words that were published by some one else and he  took Islamic stories from  9th/10th/11th centuries and wrote his paper .,

    The difference between you and Moshe Sharon is ., you came to the right conclusion that  2;125 is NOT necessary to build a building by SO_CALLED MUSLIMS.. and Moshe Sharon is trying to show Early Islamic onslaughts (BEFORE SAY YEAR 700) were brutal and Arabic nomads  who came from Mecca/Medina ran over all of middle east from Arabia , Syria, Jerusalem, Jordan, Iraq.. all those lands using the book Quran..,, actually No..No Hadith stories....

    please read carefully the story that Moshe Sharon tells about Sophronius, in the publication itself.. for e.g.,
    Quote
    Sophronius, the Patriarch of Jerusalem, had by then lost all hope of relief from Constantinople, seeing that all the major cities of Syria, Damascus included, hadopened their gates to the invading Muslim armies. (See Busse 1986: 150 and n. 2 for bibliography; Sharon 2007: 300–301.) Most of these armies had already moved either to the north or to the south, subjugating whatever remained of the Syrian and African provinces of the Byzantine – East Roman Empire. The Arabic sources report that Caesarea remained the only city on the Syrian littoral that refused for along time to follow the example of the other major urban centres of Syria, and was brought under siege. This cut it off from the Palestinian hinterland but not from the marine lines of communication with the centre of the empire. It was, however, only a question of time before it fell into Muslim hands....

    ..Sophronius was witness to the new situation where Bedouin and their flocks were scattered all over the environs of Jerusalem and even the journey to nearby Bethlehem was fraught with danger. His sermon was, perhaps, one  final plea to the Emperor to come to the aid of the Holy Land and the Holy City in repulsing the nomad invaders. It is clear from both his testimonies however, that the Arab presence around the city was not a real siege, and that the decision to capitulate was made not out of distress but rather out of despair. There was no point in refusing to follow the lead of the other major Syrian cities that sometimes even welcomed the invaders.When the decision to capitulate was taken, Sophronius had only this one minor Arab commander on the spot to whom he could offer the Holy City. (The story reminds us of a similar event that occurred in 1917 when the keys of the city of Jerusalem were offered to two cooks from General Allenby’s  army, whom thenotables of Jerusalem mistook to be the representatives of the victorious British army.)


    Look at those highlighted words at the end... that is silly comparison... please read that publication carefully .,  Any way you are right here

    Quote
    3). You  have to deal with what there is, not with what you wish you had.

    Off course we have to deal with what you have  dear mundi.. but we can put  little more detailed investigation and little more thought process in to what happened in those early Islamic times  by  negating unanswered questions ((or those questions that are difficult to answer)) by  our own self generated questions  using the same existing ancient literature,   archaeology  and other proofs...

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9425 - June 16, 2020, 12:27 PM

    well let me watch Moshe Sharon carefully....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCC_3do-InI

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INAnWZdUk84

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rr9uKTqoKhw


    He is a great guy....but


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9426 - June 16, 2020, 12:42 PM

    And dear mundi & friends.. those of your interested in the early publications (19th and 20th century)  by various authors on the  history of Islam/Christianity/ Judaism .. I want you guys to scan through this book of  Alban Butler



    The Lives of the Fathers, Martyrs, and Other Principal Saints :
    Compiled from Original Monuments and Other Authentic Records,
    Illustrated with the Remarks of Judicious Modern Critics and Historians, 

    Quote
    Alban Butler (13 October 1710 – 15 May 1773) was an English Roman Catholic priest and hagiographer. Butler's great work, The Lives of the Fathers, Martyrs and Other Principal Saints ("Butler's Lives"), the result of thirty years' study, was first published in four volumes in London, 1756–1759. It is a popular and compendious reproduction of the Acta Sanctorum, exhibiting great industry and research, and is in all respects the best compendium of Acta in English.[5] Butler's magnum opus has passed many editions and translations


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9427 - June 16, 2020, 08:34 PM

    Yeez,

    Moshe Sharon's views on the ME are not relevant here. Of course according to him, no ME state is legitimate except his own. Not important when discussing his paper.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9428 - June 16, 2020, 11:18 PM

    Yeez,

    Moshe Sharon's views on the ME are not relevant here. Of course according to him, no ME state is legitimate except his own. Not important when discussing his paper.


    dear mundi It is true that his views...................political/religious/personal ................are not relevant to his publication., but you are  wrong in saying  "according to him, no ME state is legitimate except his own."..

    He is comparing democracy means it has to be like in US of A.. And and I did not say .. "Watch his videos and read his papers to get his mindset"   ..

    what all I am saying is   "his publication is NOT relevant to early Islamic history  that starts with birth of Prophet of Islam in the year 571 to the next~ 100  years.,  that is year 680 where this  Death of Muawiyah. Accession of Yazid. Tragedy of Kerbala and martyrdom of Hadrat Hussain occurs. in Islamic stories.

    That is all what all I am saying. 

    But but his work becomes very relevant if you couple Islamic stories written in 9th/10th/11 th centuries on the "life Prophet of Islam plus that  Rashidun Caliphate time.,the early four  Islamic rulers  the  Two son in-laws and two father in-laws of Prophet of Islam "  and explain Islam in the years  from 571 to 680.

    Incidentally I was putting those videos on the board of because of that first video  by Prof. Michael Cook .. NOT FOR SHOWING Moshe Sharon's views

    the lecture is   on  " The Spread of Islam around the Indian Ocean - Prof. Michael Cook" ..  and I am sure you know who he is..

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9429 - June 16, 2020, 11:38 PM

    Well on that word   Prof. Michael Cook  lecture .. Let me watch/hear   lecture of his contemporary.,  whom our Altara does not like..

    The Acculturated Native Who Rebels

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyQt1bCnDm4


    that is  Patricia Crone.. let me hear her.....

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9430 - June 18, 2020, 11:10 AM

    Jay Smith poses some good questions

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXdfjqFeFJw
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9431 - June 18, 2020, 03:08 PM

    Jay Smith poses some good questions

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXdfjqFeFJw


    one should watch that with this

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61gebPHBqfw

    and that "How Prophet of Islam received the revelation from angle??    .. good question.., and Dr. Shabir Ally spits out a cock and bull  crock pot story as an answer to her question

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9432 - June 18, 2020, 06:19 PM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMa5tqfdNzw
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9433 - June 18, 2020, 09:02 PM

    Missing Words In A Quran Manuscript..  d. Daniel Alan  Brubaker  video....

    Just curious here .. do you trust his work dear Altara..  and I wonder whether you read his book


    or ...........Daniel Alan Brubaker, Corrections in Early Qurʾānic Manuscripts: Twenty Examples..........his 2004 Ph. D. dissertation  from Rice University  ??

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gjB-hMZXBc

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9434 - June 19, 2020, 05:38 AM

    One Muhammad or Many Muhammads?What Stylometry Can and Can't Tell UsAbout Quranic Authorship....by    
    Hythem Sidky   2019


    well interesting pub/lecture..


    Reacting to Muḥammad: Three Early Islamic Poets in the Kitāb al-Aghānī by Pamela Klasova Bowdoin College  2019

    Quote
    This article investigates how the secular Arabic poetic tradition interacted with the new religious rhetoric of emergent Islam. Concretely, it deals with the verses and legacies of three poets contemporary to Muḥammad who converted to Islam, yet protested its pietistic rhetoric. Abū Khirāsh al-Hudhalī, Abū Miḥjan al-Thaqafī, and Suḥaym, the slave of the Banū al-Ḥasḥās, all lived in the Ḥijāz and witnessed the formation of Muḥammad’s movement up close


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9435 - June 19, 2020, 07:19 AM

    AL-ʿUṢŪR AL-WUSṬĀ 27 (2019)
    https://www.middleeastmedievalists.com/al-usur-al-wusta/current-issue/

    Book Review: Daniel Alan Brubaker, Corrections in Early Qurʾānic Manuscripts:
    Twenty Examples (Lovettsville: Think and Tell Press, 2019), xxv + 102 pp.
    ISBN 978-1-949123-03-6. Price: $35 (paper).
    Hythem Sidky
    University of Chicago
    This book is a popular-level publication containing material from Daniel Alan Brubaker’s PhD dissertation
    (Rice University, 2014); it is aimed at both the general reader and the scholar. Its stated purpose is to introduce the audience to a facet of textual criticism of the Quran, namely scribal corrections,
    through a series of examples from early Quranic manuscripts. The first of its kind, Brubaker’s book represents the sole accessible work on scribal changes in manuscripts and one of only a few on Quranic
    manuscripts as a whole. It is therefore frustrating that it suffers from a number of critical flaws in methodology, analysis, and discussion.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9436 - June 19, 2020, 02:50 PM

         https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ED7Z4qOQquQ

    The Sanaa Manuscript: Was the Quran Preserved Accurately?  Dr. Shabir Ally

       

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9437 - June 19, 2020, 10:53 PM

    David Powers - The Qur'an and its Legal Environment

    https://www.academia.edu/43308856/The_Quran_and_its_Legal_Environment
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9438 - June 20, 2020, 12:39 PM

    A  factual compendium of information. Thanks Zeca!
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9439 - June 20, 2020, 10:20 PM

    Ahmad Al-Jallad - The pre-Islamic basmala: Reflections on its first epigraphic attestation and its original significance

    https://www.academia.edu/43388891/Al-Jallad_draft_The_pre-Islamic_basmala_Reflections_on_its_first_epigraphic_attestation_and_its_original_significance

    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/Safaitic/status/1274335467656351745
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9440 - June 20, 2020, 10:58 PM

    Thread referencing Patricia Crone: https://mobile.twitter.com/tom47748/status/1239631760490729472
    Quote from: Michael Pregill
    PC had planned to develop her ideas about the quranic references to agriculture in publications towards the end of her life, but did not have the chance. I know that she believed the Quran trialogues between three localities, not just the two of Mecca and Medina...

    And the third site, effaced in the historical tradition but dimly visible in the Quran itself, is someplace in the north, Syria or Transjordan. Thus olives, cattle, etc. I don't think any of her late writings really articulate her thoughts on this clearly and systematically.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9441 - June 21, 2020, 09:22 AM

    Quote
    I know that she believed the Quran trialogues between three localities, not just the two of Mecca and Medina...
    And the third site, effaced in the historical tradition but dimly visible in the Quran itself, is some place in the north, Syria or Transjordan.


    In effect, she did not go forth. She should have did it after Meccan trade.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9442 - June 21, 2020, 10:18 AM

    Mecca:

    What are the quranic verses that give an undeniable link to Mecca?
    We know quite a lot that give an undeniable link to the North.

    Does anyone have a reference to an article linking the Quran to Mecca?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9443 - June 21, 2020, 11:41 AM

    Mecca:

    What are the quranic verses that give an undeniable link to Mecca?


    Quran verses that use that word Mecca dear mundi..

    Quote
    We know quite a lot that give an undeniable link to the North.

    North of what Mecca?  ..  north of Mecca  ((between some angle  say 60 degrees)) could be anywhere between  Egypt and Jordan .. all the way to end of Russian borders eastern Siberian sea  Cheesy Cheesy

    well go to that pet website



    https://www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/dome_of_the_rock/qibla

    Quote
    Does anyone have a reference to an article linking the Quran to Mecca?

    100s of books and 1000s of articles mentioned that word Mecca linking to Muhammad (PBUH) and origins of Islam.

    well let me scan through this book


    by Siraj Sait and Hilary Lim

    Siraj Sait is a graduate of the University of Madras (India), London and the Harvard Law School and is Senior Lecturer in the School of Law at the University of East London. Hilary Lim is a Principal Lecturer in Law at the University of East London, where she teaches land law, equity and trusts and child law.

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9444 - June 21, 2020, 11:58 AM

    David Powers - The Qur'an and its Legal Environment

    https://www.academia.edu/43308856/The_Quran_and_its_Legal_Environment


    https://cornell.academia.edu/DavidPowers

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9445 - June 21, 2020, 11:08 PM

    The Nomadic Menace and Limes Arabicus
    Abstract
    This dissertation considers the Limes Arabicus c.  AD 290 – 363. The development of an extensive road network in the steppe/ pre-desert and construction of independent  praesdia and castra  along the strata Diocletiana and via Nova Traiana in Syria and Arabia in the late C3rd to early C4th appears to mark a significant change in Roman frontier policy when compared to the interior urban-based garrisons in the C1st and C2nd (Eadie 1995: 75)

    https://www.academia.edu/38552825/The_Nomadic_Menace_and_Limes_Arabicus
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9446 - June 22, 2020, 08:00 AM



    Important draft.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9447 - June 24, 2020, 03:57 PM

    Quote

    So I was interested in that David Powers publication  - The Qur'an and its Legal Environment .. because of that interesting introduction with catchy words .. he wrote
    Quote
    Although Quran is NOT a law book ., strictly speaking has some 500  verses that treat legal, moral, fasting , pilgrimage, marriage, divorce,  inheritance, adoption, trade and commerce , dress code , food drink and sexual relation...crime, punishment ., etc....and and  whole lot of enchiladas of how to live life for males and females ..


    Now I am interested in those verses ..so here first  let me add the list of verses that  David Powers uses from Quran to explain his publication.. and ..and read them again.. I like reading Quran.. so.. here is the list

    Quote
    Q 33:37.,  Q 2:219., Q 4:11., Q 5:90., Q 2:106., Q 16:101., Q 4:43 ., Q 61:06.,    Q 2:97. Q 6:92., Q 10:37. Q 12:111., Q 35:31., Q 46:12., Q 5:48., Q 2.41., Q 3:81., Q 4:47., Q 2:91., Q 17:22-39., Q 6:152-154.,  Q 2:182.,  Q 2:282.,  Q 4:22., Q 4:23., Q 24:30-31., Q 5:3-5., Q 4:12., 


    well let me edit the post again as it needs 500 verses... well those are the ALL VERSES that he quoted in his pub.,   clearly they are not 500 of them but some 45 to 50 verses he  used...   

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9448 - June 25, 2020, 08:53 PM

    David Power: https://www.academia.edu/43308856/The_Quran_and_its_Legal_Environment

    Yes, very strong article again showing the link of the Quran with northern Arabia/Levant.
    Powers ends with connecting the Quranic AUDIENCE with that area and that I dont understand. Who knows where the audience was or who it was. I think the verses he explains only link with certainty the author(s) of these verses, and only maybe, a supposed audience.

    PS: what kind of show was preformed with the Quranic text that "the audience" was read legal texts?
    Do law students today (the audience) who are reading Roman or Napoleonic law, necessarily have a connection with Italy or France? Of course not.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9449 - June 26, 2020, 03:16 PM


    A Quite Variant Quran Page
    Daniel Alan Brubaker
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmUEub1O5FU
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