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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9240 - May 30, 2020, 08:29 AM

    MVP thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1265724932413173762
    Quote
    Here's a very nice infographic on the development of the canonization of the Quran by @NaqadStudies. In the comments an interesting discussion developed on what "Semi-canonical Qurans" means and how they related to the reading traditions. Here's a small thread.


    Also: https://mobile.twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1266306526744100866
    Quote
    So now we've talked about the establishment of the canon of Quranic recitation, some questions arose about pre-Uthmanic recitations and written forms of the Quran arose. What were they like, how can we know?

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9241 - May 30, 2020, 08:44 AM

    Peter Webb - Cry me a Jāhiliyya: Muslim Reconstructions of Pre-Islamic Arabian Culture - A Case Study

    https://www.academia.edu/43191616/Cry_me_a_Jāhiliyya_Muslim_Reconstructions_of_Pre-Islamic_Arabian_Culture_-_A_Case_Study
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9242 - May 30, 2020, 05:58 PM


    Marijn van Putten

    "Therefore you cannot say that these manuscripts (which are definitely Syrian, based on some consonantal variants and verse divisions!) are written "in the reading of Ibn ʿĀmir". This is my main criticism with Yasin Dutton's work on these manuscripts (which is otherwise brilliant)"

    Dutton is Muslim and he's stuck with the narrative of an oral tradition of reading the rasm.



     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9243 - May 30, 2020, 09:35 PM

    Ahmad al-Jallad - Pre-Islamic Arabic and Contact-Induced Change

    https://www.academia.edu/43204497/Al-Jallad._2020._Pre-Islamic_Arabic_and_Contact-Induced_Change
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9244 - May 31, 2020, 08:51 AM


    Ahmad al-Jallad - Pre-Islamic Arabic and Contact-Induced Change:

    "A summary of the facts above show that Arabic was in
    most intense contact with Aramaic, a situation that persisted for over a millennium
    prior to the rise of Islam, which may explain the high number of Aramaic
    loanwords into Arabic, and indeed some striking structural parallels, such as the
    distribution of the sound change -at > -ah. At the same time, there is very little
    evidence for contact with Sabaic (Old South Arabian), a contact situation only
    represented by a small number of mixed texts. This nicely matches the absence
    of South Arabian influence on Old Arabic and later forms of the language, with
    the exception of those dialects spoken in southwest Arabia."
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9245 - May 31, 2020, 01:03 PM

    Quote

    Ahmad al-Jallad - Pre-Islamic Arabic and Contact-Induced Change:

    Quote
    "A summary of the facts above show that Arabic was in
    most intense contact with Aramaic, a situation that persisted for over a millennium
    prior to the rise of Islam, which may explain the high number of Aramaic
    loanwords into Arabic, and indeed some striking structural parallels, such as the
    distribution of the sound change -at > -ah. At the same time, there is very little
    evidence for contact with Sabaic (Old South Arabian), a contact situation only
    represented by a small number of mixed texts. This nicely matches the absence
    of South Arabian influence on Old Arabic and later forms of the language, with
    the exception of those dialects spoken in southwest Arabia."




    That is such an interesting publication .... I remember even  Altara saying ..Quran early manuscripts were the FIRST WRITTEN ARABIC MANUSCRIPTS   and before the year say  600 or even before the birth of  Classical Islam Prophet Muhammad (often dated as April 22, 571 AD) nothing as written in Arabic.,   ., MANY EXPERTS OF EARLY ISLAM ALSO ASSUMED THAT THERE WERE NO  MANUSCRIPTS.........NOTHING WAS WRITTEN IN ARABIC ...

     I think that is just an assumption and gave undue credit to Quran being the first Arabic manuscript... and that transferred it in to unquestionable word of allah/god whatever in the minds of faith heads ..

    I questioned that assumption very often., I still think a unique book like Quran with a wonderful literary style could not have been the first Arabic prose/poetry book. Quarn verses if we put together in a proper order are  like that  George Bernard Shaw's play " Doctor's Dilemma" ..............    A dialogue between Allah/God and a man/messenger/prophet whatever ........................


    So my point was/is  "Quarn manuscripts COULD NOT HAVE BEEN THE FIRST WRITTEN ARABIC MANUSCRIPTS..  there must have been prose/poetry written in Arabic before Quran .." may have been  written in Old Hejazi or other old Arabic scripts...


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9246 - May 31, 2020, 01:21 PM


    Quote
    Chapter 1:  Introduction   by Christopher Lucas, Stefano Manfredi

    Chapter 2: Pre-Islamic Arabic by Ahmad Al-Jallad

    Chapter 3: Classical and Modern Standard Arabic by Marijn van Putten

    Chapter 4:  Arabic in Iraq, Syria, and southern Turkey by Stephan Procházka

    Chapter 5: Khuzestan Arabic by Bettina Leitner

    Chapter 6: Anatolian Arabic by Faruk Akkuş

    Chapter 7: Cypriot Maronite Arabic by Mary Ann Walter

    Chapter 8: Nigerian Arabic by Jonathan Owens

    Chapter 9: Maghrebi Arabic by Adam Benkato

    Chapter 10: Moroccan Arabic by Jeffrey Heath

    Chapter 11: Andalusi Arabic by Ángeles Vicente

    Chapter 12: Ḥassāniyya Arabic by Catherine Taine-Cheikh

    Chapter 13: Maltese by Christopher Lucas, Slavomír Čéplö

    Chapter 14: Arabic in the diaspora by Luca D’Anna

    Chapter 15: Arabic pidgins and creoles byAndrei Avram

    Chapter 16: Modern South Arabian languages by Simone Bettega, Fabio Gasparini

    Chapter 17: Neo-Aramaic by Eleanor Coghill

    Chapter 18: Berber by Lameen Souag

    Chapter 19: Beja by Martine Vanhove

    Chapter 20: Iranian languages by Dénes Gazsi

    Chapter 21: Kurdish by Ergin Öpengin

    Chapter 22: Northern Domari by Bruno Herin

    Chapter 23: Jerusalem Domari by Yaron Matras

    Chapter 24: Mediterranean Lingua Franca by Joanna Nolan

    Chapter 25: New-dialect formation: The Amman dialect by Enam Al-Wer

    Chapter 26: Dialect contact and phonological change by William M. Cotter

    Chapter 27: Contact and variation in Arabic intonation by Sam Hellmuth

    Chapter 28: Contact-induced grammaticalization between Arabic dialects by Thomas Leddy-Cecere

    Chapter 29: Contact and calquing by Stefano Manfredi

    Chapter 30: Contact and the expression of negation by Christopher Lucas


    well that book has interesting reviews to explore the progress of early Arabic language written scripts

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9247 - May 31, 2020, 10:41 PM

    Quote
    Quarn manuscripts COULD NOT HAVE BEEN THE FIRST WRITTEN ARABIC MANUSCRIPTS..


    You're confusing literature and inscription. There is no literature in Arabic before the Quran. There are (only) inscriptions (which are not literature).
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9248 - June 01, 2020, 12:10 AM

    https://mobile.twitter.com/GabrielSaidR/status/1265979951465054208
    Quote
    Reading "Muhammad the Empires of Faith" now by @shahanSean in which he carefully discusses why the Doctrina Jacobi has the new prophet possess "keys to paradise." He carefully shows that while this motif is not Qur'anic it is found in hadith (usually connected to jihad/sword).

    Meaning, perhaps, that the Doctrina Jacobi does not date as early as 634 after all.

    Quote from: Averil Cameron
    Which would be important if true

    ...
    Quote from: Sean Anthony
    Yes, dating the keys to paradise motif is a different question from dating the text itself, albeit related. The temple keys, AFAIK, are never called “the keys to paradise” nor does this motif feature prominently in rabbinic literature. I assign it a terminus ante quem of 695


    (For the discussion on this click on second tweet in thread))
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9249 - June 01, 2020, 10:11 AM

    The Doctrina Jacobi  is a key text for our topic. It mobilizes many dimensions of it.
    Interestingly, Anthony does not answer to a (bad, i think, but ...) question asked :

    Question :
    (sorry, 3/3). The fact that Jacobi says it is incredible that the alleged prophet has the Keys of Paradise is potentially telling. If written during or after Nehemiah's brief reign over Jerusalem, as he was planning out the Temple, the prophet's keys would not be so incredible.

    Anthony :
    Nehemiah ben Hushiel is a fairy tale from Sefer Zerubbabel. He's not historical.

    Question : Hm. Maybe he is an entirely post-Islamic invention .. is your assessment that Persian Jews weren't involved in the administration of Jerusalem when Persia took it in the early 7th c? Given that this occurred roughly 552 years after 70 CE, a significant date Messianic expectation.

    Anthony :
    The evidence for Jewish administration of Jerusalem after the Persian conquest is very thin. Mostly it relies on questionable readings of SZ and a piyyut.

    Question: Ok thank you sir. So you also don't think that 552 years after 70 AD would have been significant to Jews in the early 7th c? It was significant in the minds of medieval Judaism enough to invent Nehemiah's Messianic status.

    Anthony : no response.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9250 - June 01, 2020, 06:43 PM

    Hi all, trying to get better at being involved here. Interesting discussions.
    Dr Sean Anthony's dismissal of Hezekiah ben Hushiel is important. I think that dismissing medieval Jewish literature about the 7th c because it contains fanciful elements is misguided. Hezekiah is debated but not dismissed by any means as a medieval invention by Late Antique scholars as far as I've read.

    The real issue I think is that medieval Jewish writers ascribed significant hope on a Messiah ben Joseph figure in the 7th c, one who would re-establish the Aaronic priesthood (the original holders of the Keys to the Temple, which returned to Paradise in 70 AD according to their literature). The idea that medieval writers would read Daniel 9:20-27 and put this intense expectation on the 7th c (490 + 62 years after the fall of 2nd Temple), but that Jewish messianists were *not* expecting this same eschatological salvation in their own time when reading the same Daniel texts, stretches credulity.

    7th c accounts of the Arab conquests are indeed disparate and often conflicting, but one consistent framework that arises from these texts (regardless of whether they were written in the early or late 7th c) is a specific Jewish messianic expectation, facilitating an Abrahamic ethnic confederation against 'idolatrous' Byzantium.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9251 - June 01, 2020, 06:50 PM

    That's correct. (Edit) Except that (for me...) the Quran as such has nothing to see with the conquests. The conquerors were not "Muslims", they had quranic texts that is all.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9252 - June 01, 2020, 06:57 PM

    Hello Naqad,

    Quote
    The idea that medieval writers would read Daniel 9:20-27 and put this intense expectation on the 7th c (490 + 62 years after the fall of 2nd Temple), but that Jewish messianists were *not* expecting this same eschatological salvation in their own time when reading the same Daniel texts, stretches credulity.


    I don't really get this. Can you expand somewhat?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9253 - June 01, 2020, 09:08 PM

    Mundi,

    Thanks and sorry for the overly complicated comment above.

    The idea is that Daniel 9 has been a fixture in Jewish imagination since the early 2nd Temple period. To acknowledge that it pointed to the 7th c in medieval imagination, but that 7th c Jews weren't making the same connections in their own chaotic period, is unbelievable. Especially when most the contemporary 7th c accounts describe this very scenario in broad terms.

    ~ Naqad
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9254 - June 02, 2020, 06:33 AM

    Naqad,

    Yes, I understand your point.

    Further you write:

    Quote
    Especially when most the contemporary 7th c accounts describe this very scenario in broad terms.


    Which accounts are you thinking of? The doctrina Jacobi I guess, but are there others?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9255 - June 02, 2020, 08:59 AM

    Daniel and the Quran:

    Silverstein has convincingly shown that a lot of the Quranic material stems from Daniel. Here is Anthony tweeting it out:

    https://twitter.com/shahansean/status/1182285685383974915?lang=en

    Naqad,
    I'm not so in to this biblical material. Is this "Daniel  3"Silverstein is referring to the same Daniel you referred to when you calculate the 7th C for the rebuilding of the temple?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9256 - June 02, 2020, 09:07 AM


    well that book has interesting reviews to explore the progress of early Arabic language written scripts



    It’s open access - link here: https://langsci-press.org/catalog/book/235
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9257 - June 02, 2020, 01:21 PM

    It’s open access - link here: https://langsci-press.org/catalog/book/235


    Thank you zeca .. I am downloading some those pdf file ... and I will read them..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9258 - June 02, 2020, 01:30 PM

    well this is important
    Daniel and the Quran:

    Silverstein has convincingly shown that a lot of the Quranic material stems from Daniel. Here is Anthony tweeting it out:

    https://twitter.com/shahansean/status/1182285685383974915?lang=en

    Naqad,
    I'm not so in to this biblical material. Is this "Daniel  3"Silverstein is referring to the same Daniel you referred to when you calculate the 7th C for the rebuilding of the temple?


    So there Sean W. Anthony says


     
     
    and that Abstract Image he gets from this article of Adam Silverstein 
    Quote
    Der Islam | Volume 96: Issue 2 “Who are the Aṣḥāb al-Ukhdūd? Q 85:4‒10 in Near Eastern Context.”

    Abstract; This article seeks to contribute to our understanding of a short Qurʾānic passage, Q 85:4‒10, which concerns the fate of the enigmatic Aṣḥāb al-Ukhdūd. It is argued that the ‘eschatological’ and ‘historical’ readings of this passage, which have generally been taken to be mutually exclusive options for its interpretation, are both indispensable for a full contextualization of the verses in question. Furthermore, regarding the historical reading of the passage, it is argued that the verses refer to the events recorded in Daniel 3, rather than to the Martyrs of Najrān episode that most exegetes (and many modern scholars) opt for. Finally, a new etymology for the word Ukhdūd is proposed.


    well first thing is read Quran again..  aftre all that chapter 85 a very simple and has only 22 verses

    Quote
    1.   I swear by the mansions of the stars,
    2.   And the promised day,
    3.   And the bearer of witness and those against whom the witness is borne.
    Quote
    4.   Cursed be the makers of the pit,
    5.   Of the fire (kept burning) with fuel,
    6.   When they sat by it,
    7.   And they were witnesses of what they did with the believers.
    8.   And they did not take vengeance on them for aught except that they believed in Allah, the Mighty, the Praised,
    9.   Whose is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth; and Allah is a Witness of all things.
    10.   Surely (as for) those who persecute the believing men and the believing women, then do not repent, they shall have the chastisement of hell, and they shall have the chastisement of burning
    .

    11.   Surely (as for) [those who believe and do good, they shall have gardens beneath which rivers flow, that is the great achievement.
    12.   Surely the might of your Lord is great.
    13.   Surely He it is Who originates and reproduces,
    14.   And He is the Forgiving, the Loving,
    15.   Lord of the Arsh, the Glorious,
    16.   The great doer of what He will.
    17.   Has not there come to you the story of the hosts,
    18.   Of Firon and Samood?
    19.   Nay! those who disbelieve are in (the act of) giving the lie to the truth.
    20.   And Allah encompasses them on every side.
    21.   Nay! it is a glorious Quran,
    22.    In a guarded tablet.

     well those  highlighted verses 4-10 .. that is  6 verses....... on which that paper is published.. well  whole chapter is good song.. sonnet to sing....that is all what that chapter  says ., not sure one need a whole research publication on those six verses

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9259 - June 02, 2020, 03:03 PM

    Daniel and the Quran:

    .................

    So dear mundi.. forget that publication... but in your view where in the Quran  directly or indirectly   we find  that biblical figure Daniel ??

    you always make me to think on this comparative religious narratives ..

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9260 - June 02, 2020, 03:34 PM

    Daniel and the Quran:
    ...............

     
    ..............where in the Quran  directly or indirectly   we find  that biblical figure Daniel ??,,,


    well That is the question we need to answer..

    So we know where and what is the story of DANIEL in Old testament .. we have a book there with all these stories attached to Daniel
    Quote
    DANIEL
    1 Daniel’s Training in Babylon
    2 Nebuchadnezzar’s Dream · Daniel Interprets the Dream
    3 The Image of Gold and the Blazing Furnace
    4 Nebuchadnezzar’s Dream of a Tree · Daniel Interprets the Dream · The Dream Is Fulfilled
    5 The Writing on the Wall
    6 Daniel in the Den of Lions
    7 Daniel’s Dream of Four Beasts · The Interpretation of the Dream
    8 Daniel’s Vision of a Ram and a Goat · The Interpretation of the Vision
    9 Daniel’s Prayer · The Seventy “Sevens”
    10 Daniel’s Vision of a Man
    11 The Kings of the South and the North · The King Who Exalts Himself
    12 The End Times

    WHAT DO WE HAVE IN QURAN??

     I say Nothing.. Zero Zippo ..

    And what do we have inIslam??

    Quote
    Q: Can you shed some light on Messanger Daniel. I mean can u tell me something about him and what is he called in Arabic.


    Answer:

    Who was Prophet Daniel ?

    In the name of Allah, We praise Him, seek His help and ask for His forgiveness. Whoever Allah guides none can misguide, and whoever He allows to fall astray, none can guide them aright. We bear witness that there is no one (no idol, no person, no grave, no prophet, no imam, no dai, nobody!) worthy of worship but Allah Alone, and we bear witness that Muhammad(saws) is His slave-servant and the seal of His Messengers.

    There is no Messenger of Allah (saws) by the name of Daniel in the Glorious Quran. The Glorious Quran mentions only about 24 Prophets by name amongst the more than 124,000 Prophets Allah Subhanah sent to the earth over time, for the guidance of mankind.

    Quote
    Allah says in the Glorious Quran Chapter 4 Surah Nisaa verses 163-165:

    163 We have sent thee (O Mohamed) inspiration as We sent it to Noah, and the Messengers after him; We sent inspiration to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms.

    164 Of some Apostles We have already told thee the story; of others We have not; and to Moses Allah spoke direct.


    Apostles who gave good news as well as warning, that mankind after (the coming) of the Apostles should have no plea against Allah: for Allah is Exalted in Power Wise.

     Daniel is indeed mentioned in the Bible as a Prophet of Allah amongst the Bani-Israel. Since Daniel is not mentioned in the Glorious Quran, nor did the Messenger of Allah (saws) ever mention his name, we cannot confirm nor deny his Prophethood.

    There is no particular name for Daniel in the Arabic language, like Yousuf for Joseph, Yaqoob for Jacob, Ayyub for Job, etc. In the Arabic language Daniel is simply called Daa-nee-yaal.

     Whatever written of Truth and benefit is only due to Allahs Assistance and Guidance, and whatever of error is of me. Allah Alone Knows Best and He is the Only Source of Strength.


    Your Brother in Islam,

    Burhan

    That is from Burhan.. and I will agree with  Burhan...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9261 - June 02, 2020, 05:22 PM

    Yeez,

    Read the article of Silverstein. He seems to have a point that the referenced text is related to Daniel 3. Silverstein has several surah where he sees Daniel.

    Then comes Naqad, having a calculation based on "Daniel" for the rebuilding of the temple.  

    Maybe all this is connected?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9262 - June 02, 2020, 06:09 PM

    Quote
    Yeez, Read the article of Silverstein.He seems to have a point


    Of course he has.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9263 - June 02, 2020, 06:57 PM

    Yeez,

    Read the article of Silverstein. He seems to have a point that the referenced text is related to Daniel 3. Silverstein has several surah where he sees Daniel.............?

    dear mundi .. the link of that article says
    Quote
    PURCHASE ARTICLE
     
    $42.00
    ADD TO CART
     

    that is out of question and out of reach to a fellow like me..

     So if you read that article please prints  out the silent point of that article and the verses he uses to  connect Quran  to Daniel.,  Silverstein Article has the point in the sense that those verses are related to some bible character., Off course 99%  Quran stories are related to  OT/NT bible stories  and bit of here and there stories but You must note here that OT DANIEL IS NEVER MENTIONED IN QURAN....

    Hence  you can take those same verses that Adam Silverstein used to write that article  and attach them to any  of those names that you see in bible and make those verses to fit to that bible character ....

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9264 - June 02, 2020, 07:02 PM

    Yeez,

    You know there are alternatives to buying for most articles...

    https://www.academia.edu/40576544/_Who_Are_the_A%E1%B9%A3%E1%B8%A5%C4%81b_al-Ukhd%C5%ABd_Q_85_4-10_in_Near_Eastern_Context_

    https://www.academia.edu/42956572/Q_30_2-5_in_Near_Eastern_Context
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9265 - June 02, 2020, 07:05 PM

    You're confusing literature and inscription.

    Oops I missed that.,    .....I fully understand your point dear Altara and I am NOT confused with Stone /wall inscriptions with Arabic literature .. My Point of saying THERE MUST BE ARABIC PROSE /POETRY LITERATURE AS GOOD AS THE THOSE EARLY QURAN MANUSCRIPTS .. is slightly different..,

    Quote
    There is no literature in Arabic before the Quran. There are (only) inscriptions (which are not literature).

    well There is no Arabic literature found that are as good as Quran manuscripts .. True .. but that does not mean... There WAS no literature in Arabic before  Quran manuscripts ..

    Let me ask you Question.. in your words .."QURAN MEANS .. the present book.. or Quran manuscripts that were found here and there such as in Sana.. Yemen...??


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9266 - June 02, 2020, 07:07 PM


    Oh Thank you mundi .. well I did not know that article is on academia.edu...  let me go through it

    Adam Silverstein

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9267 - June 02, 2020, 08:00 PM

    Oops I missed that.,    .....I fully understand your point dear Altara


    I'm not really sure of that.

    Quote
    My Point of saying THERE MUST BE ARABIC PROSE /POETRY LITERATURE AS GOOD AS THE THOSE EARLY QURAN MANUSCRIPTS .. is slightly different..,


    Literature does not exist before the Quran. "THERE MUST BE " is not a scientific expression. It is your feeling and until it has no evidence, it remains a feeling with no scientific value.
    Quote
    well There is no Arabic literature found that are as good as Quran manuscripts .. True .. but that does not mean... There WAS no literature in Arabic before  Quran manuscripts ..


    There was no literature. One have no evidence for the moment of the contrary.

    Quote
    Let me ask you Question.. in your words .."QURAN MEANS .. the present book.. or Quran manuscripts that were found here and there such as in Sana.. Yemen...??


    Both.


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9268 - June 03, 2020, 12:03 AM

    Robert Hoyland

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ne39ZGzhujQ
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9269 - June 03, 2020, 12:17 PM

    Ilkka Lindstedt - The Last Roman Emperor, the Mahdi, and Jerusalem

    https://www.academia.edu/42115353/The_Last_Roman_Empreror_the_Mahdi_and_Jerusalem
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