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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9030 - April 03, 2020, 03:40 PM

    Yeez,

    Well, why don't you tell me in eg maximum a 10 line paragraph what I am missing?

     well your Question was


    What am I missing here?

      And I GAVE ANSWER  FOR THAT QUESTION .. Cheesy  ..........answer is   "yes you are missing something "  ...... Cheesy


    So are you writing a book? A review or a paper on that subject dear mundi?

    I am surprised why Kevin did not publish anything on that though he has many publication about Middle eastern languages and cultures ..  You answer my question and I will answer yours.., lol... Question to you.,  Did any one publish books or  publications on    Economic loot booty model of Islam.. especially on early Islam  similar to that write-up of Kevin  Van Bladel??

    The Death of a Prophet. PDF by  Stephen J. Shoemaker

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9031 - April 03, 2020, 06:12 PM

    Quote
    Economic loot booty model of Islam


    Just my summary of what I read in Van Bladel's review. But that would correspond a bit with how the Islamic tradition portrays itself. And what I read in archeology reports doesn't match that model.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9032 - April 04, 2020, 12:41 PM

    Statement 1:   Just my summary of what I read in Van Bladel's review. But that would correspond a bit with how the Islamic tradition portrays itself.

    Statement 2: And what I read in archeology reports doesn't match that model.

    you add very good discussion  pointers to your posts but the problem is they have very little or  NO DETAILS of what you are  saying dear mundi.., for .e.g

    Statement 1: Kevin  Bladel' made NO CONTRIBUTION and did not explain clearly what he is trying to say., except using ONE VERSE OF QURAN.. and that is  (Q 8:41) ., please go to this post to read again what he is saying .. There I took his ECONOMIC LOOT BOOTY MODEL in its entirety and  made in to three parts.. Now the first part..

    Quote
    Quote


    well  as mundi mentioned an economic model of Kevin   in reviewing that book., So   I must carefully read this "LOOT BOOTY" economic model of Islam that Kevin added in his review., Let me separate that part of his review from rest of it to read it carefully 

    Quote
    ...........When a historian explains social events to me through the factor of ideology, I still want to follow the money. Ideological organization is one of several effective means of imperialism, but apocalyptic warfare cannot sustain decades of enthusiasm without victories and God-given cash. It is not cynical to acknowledge that the religiously tinged fervor for annual raids and territorial conquest was sustained by sensational material revenues based on plunder (fayʾ) for God. What is missing from this book's profound account of the apocalypticism of this empire of conquest is the worldly elation of men who emigrated from arid lands to subjugate richer nations, when God “opened” the land to them, and found themselves hauling off vast quantities of treasure, livestock, and innumerable human captives enslaved for labor and sex. For several generations, the fighting men continued to demand their customary share of four fifths of all the booty they took, which they understood to have been guaranteed to them by Go, who wanted only one fifth for Himself (Q 8:41). That portion was forwarded to the caliph, who was expected to redistribute it to the needy . Caliphs who found ways to extract more than that share were deemed impious by the fighting men whose personal allotments were thereby lessened. The growing mismatch between the financial exigencies of Umayyad government, on the one hand, and Muslim warriors’ demands for customary shares of the righteous spoils of the End Time, on the other, appears also to have been a struggle between the needs and desires of the caliphs to govern as monarchs, as decades passed and the Hour had still not yet come, and the material rewards for militancy that had been prescribed during the earliest years of conquest, when the fight was still vividly apocalyptic for many of the participants. ..........



    He has written all that stuff JUST WITH ONE VERSE.. Question is about the timing of that verse

    1). When it entered in to Quran manuscripts .. what date ? what year ? 

    2). Did alleged Prophet of Islam really say those words??

    Now., Assume Prophet of Muhammad was real .. Allah/god really  revealed  that verse and whole  surah-8 in Medina and Everything in Islamic conquest started with that from that year and that is  because that whole surah-8 was allegedly reveled when Prophet of Islam was in Medina ..  Now when we look at Prophet's life time   from classical Islamic stories  this is what we have during that time..
    Quote
    622: Second pledge at Aqaba. The Holy Prophet and the Muslims migrate to Yathrib.
    623: Nakhla expedition.
    624: Battle of Badr. Expulsion of the Bani Qainuqa Jews from Madina.
    625: Battle of Uhud. Massacre of 70 Muslims at Bir Mauna. Expulsion of Banu Nadir Jews from Madina. Second expedition of Badr.
    626: Expedition of Banu Mustaliq.
    627: Battle of the Trench. Expulsion of Banu Quraiza Jews.
    628: Truce of Hudaibiya. Expedition to Khyber. The Holy Prophet addresses letters to various heads of states.
    629: The Holy Prophet performs the pilgrimage at Makkah. Expedition to Muta (Romans).
    630: Conquest of Makkah. Battles of Hunsin, Auras, and Taif.
    631: Expedition to Tabuk. Year of Deputations.
    632: Farewell pilgrimage at Makkah.
    632: Death of the Holy Prophet.Election of Hadrat Abu Bakr as the Caliph

    In other words year 622 he entered in to Medina and in the year 632 he died in Medina ? Mecca?.. wherever..  that is the story you have .,

    We must realize here that Quranic manuscripts might have been present during Prophet't time  BUT THIS PRESENT BOOK QURAN WAS NOT THERE., NEITHER THE STUPID VOLUMES AND VOLUMES OF HADITH were there in the year 632.,   The another  question one must ask  here is

    1)  What conquests, what towns,  what countries   and in what killing did Prophet of Islam " The  QURANIC Muhammad"  participated ??  .. and what archaeology proof do we have before Prophet Islam conquered those cities or and what happened to those towns/cities  archaeological monuments  after Prophet of Islam conquered?

    Again we are talking about  QURANIC MUHAMMAD ((NOT MUHAMMAD OF STUPID SILLY HADITH )) .,  you give me the answer to that because you are good in that Archaeology of early Islamic period

    So the point is ., There is no  point of talking about archaeology that is coupled to early Islamic expansion during the life time of QURANIC MUHAMMAD., 

    YES ROGUES THAT CONVERTED AND JOINED ISLAM AT LATER TIMES say 8, 9 10th.. centuries and  further down did destroy Archaeological proof of earlier cultures., but that is NOTHING TO DO WITH QURANIC MUHAMMAD...  who was a good man . On whose name ROGUES OF ISLAM  WHO CONVERTED IN TO ISLAM used that loot booty economic model to expand  their Islam ., and that is  not the Islam of Quranic manuscripts.,   Let me say this again we must differentiate between Quranic manuscripts and the   THE PRESENT BOOK QURAN from Egyptian  Muslim morons of 18th century

    Well we can discuss further on that  but that is enough for now.. because there is lot more in that surah-8th than  just that verse Kevin picked up to initiate his "Loot booty economic model of Islamic expansion" ., In fact Kevin is right to say that when you move-up in time say 8th, 9th, 10th or further up in timeline   but that is NOT true during the time of those QURANIC MANUSCRIPTS

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9033 - April 04, 2020, 06:07 PM

    Yeez,

    On 8:41

    The verse says 1/5 is for Allah, Prophet and his family and the rest. Doesnt specify how much is for the fighters. Bc it can be 1/5 for Allah, 1/5 for the prophet, 1/5 for the family, 1/5 for the needy....

    But it does seem to be written for a community going to war. I give Kevin that.

    The traditional time line is uncertain. I don't really focus on it. I know that by 630 Mohammed was said to be in Ayla (but that is not sure either).

    i agree Yeez, not really productive on focussing on Quran to explain actions of Arabs. Altara convinced me about 2:127, building the house was probably the reason for their action on the Temple Mount.

    But apart  from some extracts here or there, I don't have impression Quran played a big role.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9034 - April 04, 2020, 07:09 PM

    If I convinced you about that (2:127, building the house was probably the reason for their action on the Temple Mount.) It is possible that I convince you about the rest when you read it.At the very least , you'll get another landscape of the stuff.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9035 - April 04, 2020, 10:04 PM

    Yeez,

    On 8:41

    The verse says 1/5 is for Allah, Prophet and his family and the rest. Doesnt specify how much is for the fighters. Bc it can be 1/5 for Allah, 1/5 for the prophet, 1/5 for the family, 1/5 for the needy....

    But it does seem to be written for a community going to war. I give Kevin that.


    I am not really interested in discussing the stuff that you have written below of that above statement . because I know what it is.,  and that is NOT from Quran., 

    But what is your opinion on these articles.. please read them

     1. Dark passages., Does the harsh language in the Koran explain Islamic violence? Don't answer till you've taken a look inside the Bible., By dr. Philip Jenkins   


    Philip Jenkins wrote that book.. JESUS WARS: HOW FOUR PATRIARCHS, THREE QUEENS, AND TWO EMPERORS DECIDED WHAT CHRISTIANS WOULD BELIEVE FOR THE NEXT 1,500 YEARS  BY PHILIP JENKINS

    Quote
    Philip Jenkins  is a professor of history at Baylor University in the United States, and co-director for Baylor's Program on Historical Studies of Religion in the Institute for Studies of Religion.[  He is also the Edwin Erle Sparks Professor of Humanities Emeritus at Pennsylvania State University (PSU). He was professor (from 1993) and a distinguished professor (from 1997) of history and religious studies at the same institution; and also assistant, associate and then full professor of criminal justice and American studies at PSU, 1980–93.

     
     
    2. Is The Bible More Violent Than The Quran?  by BARBARA BRADLEY HAGERTY

    Quote
    mundi: The traditional time line is uncertain. I don't really focus on it. I know that by 630 Mohammed was said to be in Ayla (but that is not sure either).

    WHICH MUHAMMAD? WHICH AYLA? Where is it ?  and how do you know that Quranic Mohammed was in Ayla in the year 630?.. LINK PLEASE

    Quote
    i agree Yeez, not really productive on focussing on Quran to explain actions of Arabs.

    Arabs ... well Arab folks of that time were fools.. they were simple nomadic folks.,  they were in fact victims of  Islam that spilled out of hadith.

    ... THAT IS NOTHING TO DO WITH  QURAN  FROM QURANIC MANUSCRIPTS

    Quote
    Altara convinced me about 2:127, building the house was probably the reason for their action on the Temple Mount.

    But apart  from some extracts here or there, I don't have impression Quran played a big role.

    well that  2:127 uttering/mutterings  are  different from 8:41,  and it is a different game ...

    I am willing to talk about Quran and Quranic Muhammad from Quranic manuscripts., But Not interested in  present Arabic Islam  that stems from  Arabic hadith  and along with those cartoon characters.    Muhammads that indeed come from hadith.

    Talking about  many cartoon Muhammad characters that come from hadith is nothing but  exploring early Islamic history by  running in circles.  We can not even move a meter  from the starting point by running in circles.

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9036 - April 05, 2020, 09:18 AM

    Yeez,


    I agree that you can do with a text what you want. And I have the impression that in 7th C, not much was being done with the Quranic text. I don't see it in anything Arabs do (except 2:127?).

    And I agree, if you take the OldTestament and make it a guideline for perfect behavior, probably you will end up with a state like ISIS 4.0. And I think there are such people...

    But luckily, there are plenty of Christian churches whose official doctrine (as far as I can judge) is not that that OT is this perfect guideline. Just as I am sure that  99 % of muslims  do not consider the Quran as a perfect guideline for their lives anno 2020.

    Quote
    I am willing to talk about Quran and Quranic Muhammad from Quranic manuscripts., But Not interested in  present Arabic Islam

    That's my intention too Yeez, but imo it is you who is expanding the scope...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9037 - April 05, 2020, 12:22 PM

     
    Quote
    And I have the impression that in 7th C, not much was being done with the Quranic text.


    Yes.


    Quote
    I don't see it in anything Arabs do (except 2:127?).


    Yes.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9038 - April 05, 2020, 01:44 PM

    Oops ., dear mundi  I hope you understand  that I am not writing anything against you or your line of thinking ., I actually like your posts., because your post pointers argue  folks to put on that "THINKING CAP" ., again let me answer point by point here 
    Yeez,


    1).  I agree that you can do with a text what you want. And I have the impression that in 7th C, not much was being done with the Quranic text. I don't see it in anything Arabs do (except 2:127?).


    well I am not sure about that ., but why are you using question mark there next to 2:127 ?  And What is that 2:127 to do with Arab folks of that time living around nomadic places  like  the present Mecca or Medina?  any way  let us read that verse .. let me put that verse in different translations  here..

    Quote

    وَإِذْ يَرْفَعُ إِبْرَاهِيمُ الْقَوَاعِدَ مِنَ الْبَيْتِ وَإِسْمَاعِيلُ رَبَّنَا تَقَبَّلْ مِنَّا ۖ إِنَّكَ أَنتَ السَّمِيعُ الْعَلِيمُ


    Transliteration:    Waith yarfaAAu ibraheemu alqawaAAida mina albayti waismaAAeelu rabbana taqabbal minna innaka anta alssameeAAu alAAaleemu

    Yusuf Ali:    And remember Abraham and Isma'il raised the foundations of the House "Our Lord! Accept (this service) from us: For Thou art the All-Hearing, the All-knowing.

    Shakir:   And when Ibrahim and Ismail raised the foundations of the House: Our Lord! accept from us; surely Thou art the Hearing, the Knowing:

    Pickthall:   And when Abraham and Ishmael were raising the foundations of the House, : Our Lord! Accept from us. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Hearer, the Knower.

    Mohsin Khan:   And  when Ibrahim   and   Isma'il  were raising the foundations of the House (the Ka'bah at Makkah),   "Our Lord! Accept  from us. Verily! You are the All-Hearer, the All-Knower."

    Saheeh:   And when Abraham was raising the foundations of the House and [with him] Ishmael, [saying], "Our Lord, accept [this] from us. Indeed You are the Hearing, the Knowing.

    I am not sure Arab folks of that time need to add that verse in to Quran manuscripts to initiate their  Islam

    Quote
    And I agree, if you take the Old Testament and make it a guideline for perfect behavior, probably you will end up with a state like ISIS 4.0. And I think there are such people...

    NOPE.. YOU ARE WRONG... you already said that., bookish stuff is no use to advance faiths ., and I agree with that . Now who is actually the hero of OT?  you know the name of that person..  What is the story around him??

    Quote
    But luckily, there are plenty of Christian churches whose official doctrine (as far as I can judge) is not that that OT is this perfect guideline. Just as I am sure that  99 % of muslims  do not consider the Quran as a perfect guideline for their lives anno 2020.

     NOPE you are wrong again., same answer as above .,  Who is  the hero of Christian churches?  you know the name of that person..  What is the story around him??

    Quote
    That's my intention too Yeez, but imo it is you who is expanding the scope...

    Well I am  really sorry dear mundi.  , I am forced to expand  not directly because of you but due to that book  review write up of Kevin  Van Bladel.

    again your way of thinking and asking questions and  arguing is very important to understand early Islamic history ..


    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9039 - April 05, 2020, 11:19 PM

    It appears I am going to repeat the posts I remember Zaotor mentioning a book on  Quran and its relation with  The Didascalia apostolorum ..

    and searching the web makes me to run in circles.. and takes me to that Princetonian   dr. Holger Michael Zellentin  work ..

     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efrgAWl9gT8


    that must be interesting book ..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9040 - April 06, 2020, 01:11 AM

    Among the Ruins  - Christian Sahner talk

    that is a video link of  Christian Sahner, he  talked about his book, Among the Ruins: Syria Past and Present. in which he discusses the civil war in Syria and the U.S. fight against militants in the region. He spoke at the Woodrow Wilson Center in Washington, D.C.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b04Z_sHFnmM

    DCC Lecture Series | Christian Sahner, Ph.D. - The End of Christianity in Syria?
     
    Christian Sahner, a Rhodes Scholar,  did his doctorate in History at Princeton University. In May 2009, he worked with Tariq Ramadan on a symposium on religion and politics at the University of Oxford.

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9041 - April 06, 2020, 02:59 PM

    2020-  Cellard- Un nouveau témoignage sur la fixation du canon coranique dans les débuts de l'Islam : le manuscrit Ṣan‘ā’ DAM 01-29.1

    "The history of the elaboration of the Koranic Vulgate still remains today essentially dependent on the orthodox Islamic tradition... The latter places the fixation of the Koranic Vulgate at  the time of the Caliph 'Uṯmān ibn 'Affān (reign from 644 to 656 AD),The latter places the fixation of the Koranic Vulgate at  At the time of the Caliph 'Uṯmān ibn 'Affān (reign from 644 to 656 AD),  some 20 years after the death of Muḥammad (570-632). So it is to the Caliph 'Uṯmān that we owe the establishment... of the official and definitive review of the Quran as we have it today. In detail, the business of 'Uṯmān is more obscure, given the discrepancies between the stories. What were the members of the committee in charge of the work? From what materials was the cannon made of? Was there a census what were the criteria for including or rejecting a particular or previous such a verse? Has this review been circulated and if so, in which regions of the empire?"
    DeepL is your friend.
    https://www.academia.edu/38824798/_Un_nouveau_t%C3%A9moignage_sur_la_fixation_du_canon_coranique_dans_les_d%C3%A9buts_de_lIslam_le_manuscrit_%E1%B9%A2an_%C4%81_DAM_01-29.1_in_CRAI_2018-II_avril_2020
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9042 - April 06, 2020, 07:35 PM



    that jpeg, contains pdf file of that book,.   click the pic to download pdf file of it...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VD7hm1kBZ_c

    that is  Farid Esack: Speaking about th Qur'an and Violence with Your Back Against the Wall.,  well let me scan trough it...

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9043 - April 07, 2020, 07:27 PM

    Sean Anthony's book:

    https://www.google.com/books/edition/Muhammad_and_the_Empires_of_Faith/RSzJDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA62&printsec=frontcover

    This is an extract on Jacob of Edessa as a late 7th C sources




    There is a lot in this paragraph to comment. So according to Jacob of Edessa (p62)

    1/The dominion of the Arabians (malkuta d-árabaye) was founded in 617-618 CE
    2/ Mohammed traded in provinces of Palestine, Arabias, Phoenicia and Tyre
    3/Mohammed becomes king in 622
    4) under note 13, SA mentions to Syriac NT's mention the Mhagrayye, sons of Ishmael, son of Hagar and Abraham



    Yeez, How do I present the pic on this comment without having to click on it?


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9044 - April 07, 2020, 07:46 PM

    Sean Anthony's book:

    https://www.google.com/books/edition/Muhammad_and_the_Empires_of_Faith/RSzJDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA62&printsec=frontcover

    This is an extract on Jacob of Edessa as a late 7th C sources

    (Clicky for piccy!)


    There is a lot in this paragraph to comment. So according to Jacob of Edessa (p62)

    1/The dominion of the Arabians (malkuta d-árabaye) was founded in 617-618 CE
    2/ Mohammed traded in provinces of Palestine, Arabias, Phoenicia and Tyre
    3/Mohammed becomes king in 622
    4) under note 13, SA mentions to Syriac NT's mention the Mhagrayye, sons of Ishmael, son of Hagar and Abraham


    thank you for that link mundi.....






    Quote
    In Muhammad and the Empires of Faith, Sean W. Anthony demonstrates how critical readings of non-Muslim and Muslim sources in tandem can breathe new life into the historical study of Muhammad and how his message transformed the world. By placing these sources within the intellectual and cultural world of Late Antiquity, Anthony offers a fresh assessment of the earliest sources for Muhammad’s life, taking readers on a grand tour of the available evidence, and suggests what new insights stand to be gained from the techniques and methods pioneered by countless scholars over the decades in a variety of fields. Muhammad and the Empires of Faith offers both an authoritative introduction to the multilayered traditions surrounding the life of Muhammad and a compelling exploration of how these traditions interacted with the broader landscape of Late Antiquity.

    reading Tandem is OK  but there should be a cut off year for reading stories of Muhammad alleged Prophet of Islam from 9th, 10th 11 th century and from 21st century ., Worse is people read ooold  stories and make/propagate new stories in 21st century

    you see dear mundi., in 21st century., On that  Syriac writers Jacob of Edessa (or James of Edessa) (Syriac: ܝܥܩܘܒ ܐܘܪܗܝܐ‎, romanized: Ya'qub Urhoy) (c. 640 – 5 June 708) sources are  same for every one ., We all can write our own understanding
     and our own imaginative stories on what Jacob of Edessa said.,    So I am not going to buy story Muhammad  from NON-MUSLIM SOURCES who heard from some other guys on Muhammad .. the guy was born in 640.....

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9045 - April 07, 2020, 07:54 PM

    Yeez,

    How do you post the pictures?

    Thanks!
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9046 - April 07, 2020, 08:02 PM

    Yeez,

    How do you post the pictures?

    Thanks!


      [img]COPY/PASTE IMAGE  LINK HERE[/img ]  .,

    I pasted  this link   from your post between [img]  ........paste your post link........ [/img ]

    https://i.postimg.cc/vTW2M837/Screen-Shot-2020-04-07-at-9-10-31-PM.png

     there is also image  button of this "post writing box" that you can click ., please notice I added extra space in that end bracket "]"   so you will see the script..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9047 - April 07, 2020, 08:15 PM

    Sean Anthony's book:

    https://www.google.com/books/edition/Muhammad_and_the_Empires_of_Faith/RSzJDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA62&printsec=frontcover

    This is an extract on Jacob of Edessa as a late 7th C sources




    There is a lot in this paragraph to comment. So according to Jacob of Edessa (p62)

    1/The dominion of the Arabians (malkuta d-árabaye) was founded in 617-618 CE
    2/ Mohammed traded in provinces of Palestine, Arabias, Phoenicia and Tyre
    3/Mohammed becomes king in 622
    4) under note 13, SA mentions to Syriac NT's mention the Mhagrayye, sons of Ishmael, son of Hagar and Abraham



  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9048 - April 07, 2020, 08:18 PM


    Quote
    Thanks Yeez, it works with your link, but not with mine...


    here  https://www.phpbb.com/community/help/bbcode 

    please read through that BBcode .. it gives all the info you need for pics as well as other issues

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9049 - April 07, 2020, 09:12 PM

    Thanks again Yeez, I needed the "direct link"option, now it works!
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9050 - April 08, 2020, 07:44 AM

    Sean Anthony's book:

    https://www.google.com/books/edition/Muhammad_and_the_Empires_of_Faith/RSzJDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA62&printsec=frontcover

    This is an extract on Jacob of Edessa as a late 7th C sources
    There is a lot in this paragraph to comment. So according to Jacob of Edessa (p62)

    1/The dominion of the Arabians (malkuta d-árabaye) was founded in 617-618 CE
    2/ Mohammed traded in provinces of Palestine, Arabias, Phoenicia and Tyre
    3/Mohammed becomes king in 622
    4) under note 13, SA mentions to Syriac NT's mention the Mhagrayye, sons of Ishmael, son of Hagar and Abraham


    First example  (to my knowledge) of the skeleton of the Muslim narrative reported by a non Muslim to whom Muslims have recounted it.  Narrative started towards 698 by Jacob (de Prémare 1st ed. p.370) Therefore one can think it is early 8th c.
    617-618 being a key date, possibly the Dhu Qar defeat of the Persians, they do not control south Iraq and the East coast any more. At that time they are fully engaged against the Romans.
    No mention of Mecca/Kaba/Zem-zem, the Quran, Gabriel, etc.
    4/ Reference?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9051 - April 08, 2020, 09:49 AM

    Anthony book :
    Table of Contents

    List of Illustrations
    Acknowledgments
    The Caliphs, 632–809

    Introduction: The Making of the Historical Muhammad

    PART I. BEFORE THE SIRAH-MAGHAZI LITERATURE

    1. The Earliest Evidence
       Three Early Non-Muslim Testimonies to Muhammad
       Revisiting the Doctrina Iacobi
       The “Keys to Paradise” in Late Antique Religious Discourse
       The “Keys to Paradise” in Early Islamic Preaching
       The Doctrina Iacobi and the Historical Muhammad
     
    2. Muhammad the Merchant
       The Earliest Depictions of Muhammad as a Merchant
       Muhammad’s Occupation in the Hadith and Sirah-Maghazi Literature
       Muhammad as a Trader in Arabic Sources
       Muhammad and the Monk
       The Merchants of Mecca

    PART II. THE BEGINNINGS OF HTE SIRAH-MAGHAZI LITERATURE

    3. The Beginnings of the Corpus
       The Umayyads and the Beginnings of the Sirah-Maghazi Tradition
       ?Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan and ?Urwah ibn al-Zubayr
     
    4. The Letters of ?Urwah ibn al-Zubayr
       The Chains of Transmission for ?Urwah’s Letters
       A Translation of the Letters Attributed to ?Urwah ibn al-Zubayr
       Letter 1. From the Persecutions in Mecca to the Hijrah to Yathrib
       Letter 2. Khadijah’s death and the Prophet’s marriage to ?A?ishah
       Letter 3. The Battle of Badr
       Letter 4. On al-Hudaybiyah, a Gloss on Q. Mumtahinah 60:10–12
       Letter 5. The Conquest of Mecca and al-Ta?if
       Letter 6. On the Hums
       Letter 7. ?A?ishah’s Accusers
       Letter 8. On Khuwaylah, the wife of Aws ibn al-Samit, a Gloss on
          Q. Mujadalah 58:1–4
       Letter 9. On the Prophet’s Marriage to a Sister of al-Ash?ath ibn Qays
     
    5. The Court Impulse
       Ibn Shihab al-Zuhri and the Umayyads 132
       The Corpus of Ibn Shihab al-Zuhri 140
       Ibn Ish.aq and the Abbasids 150
       The Corpus of Ibn Ish.aq 158

    I add a translation (DeepL) of Parker's paper devoted (in part) about what one sees in the way how Antony address the topic in his content as Anthony starts in the same way as Crone to establish the existence of Muhammad:  the Doctrina Jacobi . Parker's paper was published in Academia before Anthony's book.

    "Actually, not really. "The only way ..." would have been to question, first of all, the foundation of this tradition: the existence, in the supposed historical framework of "Mecca/Medina/Prophet Muhammad", of the figure presented as having produced the Koranic corpus in a specific place and time. And according to it, none other. Having fully understood the problem, that she [Crone] is in fact only "starting over" in part, she is working to resolve it following this explanatory memorandum.
    She  does so by exhorting from an external source (the Doctrina Jacobi nuper baptizati/ The Teaching of Jacob, the Newly Baptized) accepted as contemporary to the events of the 7th century and featuring a prophetic figure accompanying arriving Arabs. From the research that knows the rest of the story, the link is made with the figure that produces the Koranic corpus presented by the - later - Muslim narrative. Who else could it be? These events of the 7th century in Palestine-Syria obviously reflect the jihād ordered by the Prophet Muḥammad as narrated by Muslim historiography.
    It turns out that it can be difficult to pass such a source to a rigorous examination when it allows us to evacuate the thorny subject of the historical existence of Muhammad by identifying him with the prophetic figure of the  Doctrina Jacobi. So intense is the significance of the framework "Mecca/Medina/Prophet Muḥammad" that this identification is recorded: Muḥammad, the producer of the Koran, (or putative author of "prophetic logia" intended to be rewritten and completed and giving the current Koran according to some researchers), in Mecca/Medina, is a historical figure. Confers what Antoine Borrut says: "This rejection of Arab-Muslim sources has been accompanied by a new interest in non-Muslim sources, primarily Christian and Jewish. Some of these texts are indeed interesting because they are contemporary to the first decades of Islam, and in particular make it possible to establish the existence of a historical Muḥammad. ».
    However, to these two theories which present the Muhammad of Mecca as an author of all or part of the Koranic corpus, and as soon as he is identified by research with the prophetic figure of the Doctrina Jacobi, two objections will be raised. One is that the Qur'an abundantly describes an end of the world and does not present,2 nor does it announce, any "return of a Messiah". Yet the Doctrina Jacobi (remarkably) does the opposite. Another objection is that it is the only text (there are many) relating the conflicting events of the 7th century that testifies, on the Arab side, to a messianic proclamation. If this idea was common to the Arabs of the time, one would expect to find it in other authors of the 7th century. This is (obviously) not the case. This is why we will rule out the identification of the prophetic figure of the Doctrina Jacobi  with the one who would be the author of "logia" from Mecca and the Muslim narrative.
    So what about the messianic announcement of the Doctrina Jacobi ? It may have come from another agenda. It would not be the first time that the rhetorical procedure of putting into the mouths of some people a discourse that does not belong to them would be used. [...]
    In conclusion, contrary to what A. Borrut says and before him P. Crone, no text from the 7th century, including the  Doctrina Jacobi , attests to the existence of a historical Muḥammad belonging to the "Mecca/Medina/Kaʿba/Ḥijāz" framework identified as the author of all or part of the Koran. "

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9052 - April 08, 2020, 12:45 PM

    Quote
    1/The dominion of the Arabians (malkuta d-árabaye) was founded in 617-618 CE
    2/ Mohammed traded in provinces of Palestine, Arabias, Phoenicia and Tyre
    3/Mohammed becomes king in 622
    4) under note 13, SA mentions to Syriac NT's mention the Mhagrayye, sons of Ishmael, son of Hagar and Abraham


    Sean Anthony uses this material to prove that the tradition is correct (including Mecca-Medina). I suggest we take this info and take it at face value.

    1/ Jacob of Edessa mentions Mohammed as a King, not as a prophet.

    2/Before that M was a trader also in Arabia. What was Arabia at the time? I guess it was the Arabiae Petraea region, maybe together with Arabia Nova in N. Egypt (Late Antique map cfr Treadgold hereunder?



    No reason to get Mecca involved because of what Jacob of Edessa writes.

    3/ 622 is associated with the rule of Mohammed. Not with an emigration. We know it was common to start dating according to a new King. So why imagine a higra if not for the later tradition?

    4/ Apparently atogether with Ismael and Hagar, the term Mhagrayye was used. Is it realistic that the Christians took this term from Mujahirun, mimicking the Arabs using this? A term in opposition with the earlier Hagrayye which had a clear link with Hagar.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9053 - April 08, 2020, 01:50 PM

    1). Sean Anthony uses this material to prove that the tradition is correct (including Mecca-Medina).

    2). I suggest we take this info and take it at face value.


    1). what material did he use ?  was it not already published and discussed and debated by many people ?  including Robert G. Hoyland' book/work??
     
    2). why would you say that dear mundi?   why should any one take that on its face value and believe in what Sean Anthony  writes from his collected stories on Muhammad.. Prophet of Islam and his life??

    Quote


      Introduction: The Making of the Historical Muhammad 

    that is 15 page introduction pdf file of that  Sean Anthony's book

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9054 - April 08, 2020, 02:06 PM

    Quote
    page15: ..............I contend that the utility and richness of the Qurʾan as a historical source has  been undersold.55 For one thing, the Qurʾan can be read historically even if one rejects the proposition that it may be mined for proof texts to confirm the historicity of this or that narrative of the sīrah-maghāzī tradition. Increasingly, reading the Qurʾan historically has come to mean enriching our understanding of its historical context................


    Quote
    page13-14 :   To illustrate this problem and its practical effects for historians, consider a famous example cited by the late Andrew Rippin, a short, early Meccan sūrah,  Q. D. uh. ā 93:

     
    Quote
    By the white forenoon
    and the brooding light!
    Thy Lord has neither forsaken thee nor hates thee
    and the Last shall be better for thee than the First.
    Thy Lord shall give thee, and thou shall be satisfied.
    Did He not find thee an orphan, and shelter thee?
    Did He not find thee erring, and guide thee?
    Did He not find thee needy, and suffice thee?
    As for the orphan, do not oppress him,
    and as for the beggar, scold him not;
    and as for the Lord’s blessing, declare it.

     

    How should the historian read this text as a historical text? The voice of this sūrah throughout addresses a singular “thee” (-ka) rather than a plural “you” (-kum). So is it addressing the individual to whom the sūrah is revealed or any believer who individually hears the message? The sīrah-maghāzī tradition used this sūrah to anchor its narratives of the Prophet’s early life in the qurʾanic text, and some modern historicizing readings of the sūrah have adopted this strategy too, thus claiming to find direct references to factual data about Muh. ammad’s early
    life in its verses ...............


    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9055 - April 08, 2020, 02:42 PM

    Quote
     Jacob of Edessa mentions Mohammed as a King, not as a prophet.


    Yes, and he knows perfectly well what is a prophet.

    Quote
    Before that M was a trader also in Arabia. What was Arabia at the time?


    "Arabia" was not the peninsula, it was a (small) jurisdictional province after the 5th c. In fact one does not know what was the meaning of this word by Jacob but it was not the peninsula as such.

    Quote
    I guess it was the Arabiae Petraea region, maybe together with Arabia Nova in N. Egypt (Late Antique map cfr Treadgold hereunder?


    All of this is was elaborated by the Arab literati  between 630 and 700 and reported by Jacob as "Arabia".

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9056 - April 08, 2020, 02:54 PM

    Quote
    So is it addressing the individual to whom the sūrah is revealed or any believer who individually hears the message?

     

    Haha, hahaha, hahahaha, hahahahaha (ad infinitum...)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9057 - April 08, 2020, 02:59 PM

    Yeez,

    I read the extract I gave from S Anthony's book together with the source from Michael Penn's "When Christian's met Muslims".

    I don't know who already discussed this material, but the idea is that we discuss it amongst us, no?

    To everybody,

     Jacob also mentions a slightly different timeline than the official narrative. Everything seems to be a bit earlier. That makes me think of Pourshariati's find that the events in Persia must have been earlier than in tradition. Does anyone know if she addressed Jacob of Edessa's chronology?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9058 - April 08, 2020, 03:14 PM

    Yeez,

    I read the extract I gave from S Anthony's book together with the source from Michael Penn's "When Christian's met Muslims".

    I don't know who already discussed this material, but the idea is that we discuss it amongst us, no?

    oh i see., OK., I was under the impression    .....you are asking folks to BELIEVE WHAT   SEAN WROTE AS TRUTH  and nothing but truth dear mundi., sorry i misunderstood., ... we can always discuss the subjects which we discussed before..  nothing wrong with that ., 

    Quote
    To everybody,

     Jacob also mentions a slightly different timeline than the official narrative. Everything seems to be a bit earlier. That makes me think of Pourshariati's find that the events in Persia must have been earlier than in tradition. Does anyone know if she addressed Jacob of Edessa's chronology?


    any way what actually you mean by "Jacob of Edessa's chronology?".. you mean his life time and what he wrote and when?

    Lives of the Saints

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9059 - April 08, 2020, 03:31 PM

    Michael Penn's "When Christians met Muslims"was linked on this site (by you?). The chronology of Jacob of Edessa is in there. The document itself seems fragmentary, but Penn reconstructs it somewhat...
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