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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8700 - December 30, 2019, 12:42 PM

    The text is not available yet but seems interesting.

    These small Palestine towns (eg in Negev) often had 5- 6 churches for a a seemingly limited population. Who paid for all that? Who paid for the monasteries?

    Did the financing change and maybe alleviate the burden on some communities with the Arabic conquests? Would that be a possible contribution to the success of the new religion in making?


    I’d assume there was a pilgrimage industry - to Jerusalem and around - that played a part in financing monasteries. One question might be how much of this survived the Persian and then Arabic conquests.

    There might be a motive there for conversion, or just working with the new regime, if the economic basis for monasticism was disrupted.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8701 - December 30, 2019, 05:18 PM

    Thinking about the above I wonder when it makes sense to start talking of conversion. There must have come a point when someone adopting the beliefs of the new rulers would have been seen by everyone as converting to another faith. But would this have been the case from the start? and if not when would it have become true?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8702 - December 30, 2019, 06:25 PM

    conversion and economy

    Let's look at the Hawara case in Jordan. https://web.uvic.ca/~jpoleson/Humayma/HumaymaDesc.html
    5 churches for 650 inhabitants. Apparently Christianity  in Hawara went quickly in decline after the Arab conquests.
    An Abassid family bought the town end 7th C.

    If the economics to maintain the churches and clergy didn't add up anymore, the population probably quickly turned to the new order that did pay the bills. I think conversion was quite clear from the start.

    Note in the article the direction of the Qibla: due South. Not Mecca, not Petra.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8703 - December 30, 2019, 06:35 PM

    1).  ..... But would this have been the case from the start?

    2). ...and if not when would it have become true?..........................


    two good questions from zeca....., well for 1st question you have to give that start time for a given land/country of that time...

    and when i say starting time...  here is an example., assuming  Islamic narration is true
    Quote
    610: The first revelation in the cave at Mt. Hira. The Holy Prophet is commissioned as the Messenger of God.
    613: Declaration at Mt. Sara inviting the general public to Islam.

    614: Invitation to the Hashimites to accept Islam.
    615: Persecution of the Muslims by the Quraish. A party of Muslims leaves for Abyssinia.
    616: Second Hijrah to Abysinnia.
    617: Social boycott of the Hashimites and the Holy Prophet by the Quraish. The Hashimites are shut up in a glen outside Makkah.
    619: Lifting of the boycott. Deaths of Abu Talib and Hadrat Khadija. Year of sorrow.

    would you consider 610 is starting time of Islamic conversion?.. are you start from the day Prophet of Islam died??
    Quote
    632: Death of the Holy Prophet.Election of Hadrat Abu Bakr as the Caliph. Usamah leads expedition to Syria. Battles of Zu Qissa and Abraq. Battles of Buzakha, Zafar and Naqra. Campaigns against Bani Tamim and Musailima, the Liar

    or  would you like to consider starting time of Islam is NOT when those four  rightly guided Caliphs ((the Two father in-laws of prophet and two son in-laws of prophet))were alive but Islam starts from Umayyad Caliphate and/or  Abbasid caliphs?

    where do you start Islam??  2nd question is simple....

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8704 - December 30, 2019, 06:53 PM

    I could imagine a situation where Arabic speaking monks and clergy from relatively marginal communities could find themselves facing new opportunities as scribes and theologians for the new rulers.

    Would the inhabitants of somewhere like Hawara or Nessana have been seen, or seen themselves, as Saracens or Tayyaye? Or is the sense of a shared identity with the new rulers (as Arabs) something that would have developed over time?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8705 - December 30, 2019, 07:00 PM

    two good questions from zeca....., well for 1st question you have to give that start time for a given land/country of that time...


    I was thinking really in terms of the conquest of Palestine - so the mid-630s. If you accept the traditional narrative then clearly it would be meaningful to talk about conversion at this date. If you assume that Islam is something that develops out of the new conquest society then the answer seems less obvious.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8706 - December 30, 2019, 07:36 PM

    1). I was thinking really in terms of the conquest of Palestine - so the mid-630s. If you accept the traditional narrative then clearly it would be meaningful to talk about conversion at this date.

     2).  If you assume that Islam is something that develops out of the new conquest society then the answer seems less obvious.

    Oh I see.,on that  year 635 or so.. Is it not too early as a starting date of Islam?  and that means you are accepting everything from traditional Islam   and you are extending it as this as true Islamic story  of conquest of Palestine

    Quote
    The Muslim Arab army attacked Jerusalem, held by the Byzantine Romans, in November, 636. For four months the siege continued. Ultimately, the Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem, Sophronius, agreed to surrender Jerusalem to Caliph Umar in person. Caliph Umar, then at Medina, agreed to these terms and traveled to Jerusalem to sign the capitulation in the spring of 637. Sophronius also negotiated a pact with Caliph Umar, known as the Umariyya Covenant or Covenant of Omar, allowing for religious freedom for Christians in exchange for jizyah (Arabic: جِـزْيَـة‎), a tax to be paid by conquered non-Muslims, called "dhimmis." Under Muslim Rule, the Christian and Jewish population of Jerusalem in this period enjoyed the usual tolerance given to non-Muslim theists

    So you are accepting the fact that Caliph Umar WHO WAS MUCH YOUNGER TO PROPHET AND WAS PROPHET'S FATHER IN-Law.... and you are accepting the traditional  Islamic fact that    Abu Bakhra ((Bakr),, I call him as Bakhra)) was father of Aisha and father in-law of prophet of Islam.,   Hence you accept present Mecca and Medina are the Towns where Islam actually started ...

    correct me if understood you wrong dear zeca....,

    Then you have to give me something about Caliph Omer... So what did we know from Non-Islamic sources on that guy??  after all that area was full of scribes from various languages...

    me thinks 2nd one far better idea.. as Islam is a religion of converts ... and you can see that in every country  that is islamized from Islamic story narrations .,  you can begin from year 790 or so from Iran,  Somalia.. Nigeria.. Indonesia.. Pakistan... Bangladesh Malaysia .. etc etc nations where  nations of recent converts starts using Islamic narrative to gain politcal and economic military superiority using Islamic rules/sharia laws and push others out of their faith or  pay something for their safety .. I mean this  is after the year 1200 or so..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8707 - December 30, 2019, 07:58 PM

    I’m not suggesting accepting the traditional narrative, just saying that my question wouldn’t be relevant if you did accept it.

    The pact of Umar is clearly apocryphal. For the development of the status of dhimmis see this article by Arietta Papaconstantinou - which has been posted before.

    Between umma and dhimma. The Christians of the Middle East under the Umayyads
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8708 - December 30, 2019, 09:33 PM

    Earlier I asked in this forum if the authors of the Quran knew the biblical traditions and changed it by will or if they just knew it through  oral sources an just wrote what they thought it should be. Altara said I should ask Reynolds about it, since I refereed to him. I said that Reynolds seldom answers questions, but in spite of that, I tried. But in vain. He didn't answer but Ghilene Hazem responded and wrote that I should read an article by Isaac W. Oliver/de Oliveira, and I did.

    From the article:

    "With respect to the New Testament parallels, Reynolds first presents two possibilities: either the Bible was not well known to the author of the Quran or the author of the Quran had access to written texts and then radically rewrote them. The form scenario envisages an author who only learned about the New Testament through hearsay or eventually forgot or was even confused about its contents. The latter scenario envisions an author quite at home with an inherited tradition, set on creating an original text that departed from previous ones.Reynolds discusses these two possibilities by speaking of the author  of the Quran in the singular.Yet given the diversity, number, and repetitions of traditions attested in Jewish and Christian sources, how viable is it in this case to speak of a singular author when discussing the milieu in which such a complex, eclectic text as the Quran was composed? If we are speaking of one individual, me must admit that this author heard or read many things.
    But perhaps this is an unhelpful comment that unfairly focuses on authorship and detracts from appreciating the
    milieu of the Quran. I would like to balance, therefore, my probing with a consideration that might strengthen the hypothesis that I gather Reynolds seems ultimately to have favored, a middle path lying between a superficial, oral acquaintance with scripture and a careful consultation of written  sources."

    So Reynolds seems to favor a "middle path", lying between a superficial oral acquaintance  with scripture and a consultation with the written sources.
    Interesting, it says in the article that the bible isn't quoted in the Quran, but the Jewish text, the Mishnah is. Does anybody knows why?

    https://www.academia.edu/40629355/Response_to_Gabriel_Said_Reynolds_Biblical_Turns_of_Phrase_in_the_Qur_%C4%81n._
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8709 - December 30, 2019, 11:15 PM

    Quote
    Earlier I asked in this forum if the authors of the Quran knew the biblical traditions and changed it by will or if they just knew it through oral sources an just wrote what they thought it should be.

    Altara said I should ask Reynolds about it, since I refereed to him. I said that Reynolds seldom answers questions, but in spite of that, I tried. But in vain. He didn't answer.


    Well...

    Quote
    So Reynolds seems to favor a "middle path", lying between a superficial oral acquaintance  with scripture and a consultation with the written sources.
    Interesting, it says in the article that the bible isn't quoted in the Quran, but the Jewish text, the Mishnah is. Does anybody knows why?


    1/Reynolds always favors a "middle path"
    2/ I could respond to this but it would take (many) times and words. But I can give an indication : for the writers of the Mishnah, it is part of the Bible as the oral Law given by God to Moses.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8710 - December 31, 2019, 12:42 AM

    Thread from Juan Cole: https://mobile.twitter.com/jricole/status/1211698702688980992
    Quote
    My new BSOAS art. "Paradosis & monotheism" argues that al-Islam in the Qur'an, a calque on Greek, means 'tradition of prophetic monotheism,' not the religion of Muhammad

    I also put forward a theory of the high theological vocabulary of the Qur'an as from centuries of Neoplatonist & Christian Arabophone interaction with Greek & Aramaic in Near Eastern eparchies of Roman Empire but was used for oral sermons, and only survives in Q.

    I think the discovery of the Petra Papyri in 1990s, Greek letters by Arabophone Christian family, proves the late Fergus Millar right in his argument that koine Greek continued to be an urban standard in Roman Near East in 5th & 6th centuries--Gerasa, Philadelphia/Amman, Damascus

    And that therefore many Arabic words in the Qur'an are loanshifts from the Greek directly and not only via Aramaic.  I note that Qur'anic word for salvation, najāh, semantically parallels Greek sōtēría but has no Aramaic cognate.  Reading the Qur'an through Greek is a revolution


    Abstract of the article: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/bulletin-of-the-school-of-oriental-and-african-studies/article/paradosis-and-monotheism-a-late-antique-approach-to-the-meaning-of-islam-in-the-quran/72EDF7ACF4C4AEB7EBC43CCEFF89DBBB
    Quote
    Both the Muslim exegetical tradition and most Western scholarship have posited that the term islām in the Quran means “submission”, i.e. to God, and that it refers to the religion brought by the prophet Muhammad. This paper argues that neither of these assertions is correct. Rather, the abstract noun islām as used in the Quran means “tradition”. It is underlain by the Aramaic mashlmānūtā, which in turn was the term generally used to translate the Greek paradosis. That the Greek usage had a direct impact on Arabic is also considered. The wide range of meanings given paradosis by Greek and Syriac authors is surveyed. A close reading of Quran verses in which the word islām appears shows that it refers to the prophetic tradition of monotheism rather than the surrender of an individual to God. It is synonymous with the Logos of Abraham, in which all the monotheistic religions participate.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8711 - December 31, 2019, 12:47 AM

    An article recommended by Daniel Beck in that thread.

    Cornelia Horne - A chapter in the pre-history of the christological controversies in arabic: Readings from the works of John Rufus

    http://documents.irevues.inist.fr/bitstream/handle/2042/35390/po_2005_133.pdf?sequence=1
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8712 - December 31, 2019, 09:33 AM

    Juan Cole and the term Islam coming from Greek:


    I'll have to read the article when coming available but can't resist making a first uninformed comment.
    Some scholars have all the credit. They come with the wildest theories and get retweeted by scholars who are in the front line to call others like Luxenberg complete nut cases. But whatever j. Cole produces is taken seriously. Am I missing something?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8713 - December 31, 2019, 10:28 AM

    Juan Cole and the term Islam coming from Greek: ((GEEK NOT Greek))


    I'll have to read the article when coming available but can't resist making a first uninformed comment.
    Some scholars have all the credit. They come with the wildest theories and get retweeted by scholars who are in the front line to call others like Luxenberg complete nut cases. But whatever j. Cole produces is taken seriously. Am I missing something?

     Cheesy Cheesy  Hi mundi .. you sound upset  .. and yes you are missing something ., and I think  Juan Cole  used an  extra letter there which i deleted

    You see without doubt Islam comes out of early Quran texts  and no one can question that ., and My hypothesis is  Quran was written by GEEK SQUAD(not Greek).  They were simple folks singing songs and living in some monastery near around Jerusalem.,  they were  Christian/Jewish folks .. Arab or non Arab origins or with  mixed gene pool  with mixed religious cultural values of  their society.,

    they were just singing songs and telling people in their prayer times that  "Jesus was not son of God  or God but a prophet..."

    that is how harmless GEEK SQUAD stated Islam  .. that is my hypothesis   Cheesy Cheesy

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8714 - December 31, 2019, 10:42 AM

    Yeez,

    Not upset at all, but you made my laugh. Cole didnt manage that! Cheesy
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8715 - December 31, 2019, 02:47 PM

    Juan Cole and the term Islam coming from Greek:
    I'll have to read the article when coming available but can't resist making a first uninformed comment.
    Some scholars have all the credit. They come with the wildest theories and get retweeted by scholars who are in the front line to call others like Luxenberg complete nut cases. But whatever j. Cole produces is taken seriously. Am I missing something?

    Luxenberg is not an academic and nobody knows who he is as it is a pseudonym. Cole is. Better, he was semi Muslim (Bahai). It is enough to be praised by (some) of his Anglo-Saxon colleagues.
    Besides, of course, the author(s) of the Quran know Greek perfectly. Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8716 - December 31, 2019, 03:26 PM

    An article recommended by Daniel Beck in that thread.

    Cornelia Horne - A chapter in the pre-history of the christological controversies in arabic: Readings from the works of John Rufus

    http://documents.irevues.inist.fr/bitstream/handle/2042/35390/po_2005_133.pdf?sequence=1


    Interesting.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8717 - December 31, 2019, 06:09 PM

    Luxenberg is not an academic and nobody knows who he is ........ Cole is. Better, ...........

     Hmm  you mean to say .. Mr. Cole has done better work on "Origins of Islam " than that Christoph Luxenberg??

    Hoffff... is is from 2002
     
    Quote
    .....................'It is serious and exciting work,'' Ms. Crone said of Mr. Luxenberg's work. Jane McAuliffe, a professor of Islamic studies at Georgetown University, has asked Mr. Luxenberg to contribute an essay to the Encyclopedia of the Koran, which she is editing.

    Mr. Puin would love to see a ''critical edition'' of the Koran produced, one based on recent philological work, but, he says, ''the word critical is misunderstood in the Islamic world -- it is seen as criticizing or attacking the text.''

    Some Muslim authors have begun to publish skeptical, revisionist work on the Koran as well. Several new volumes of revisionist scholarship, ''The Origins of the Koran,'' and ''The Quest for the Historical Muhammad,'' have been edited by a former Muslim who writes under the pen name Ibn Warraq. Mr. Warraq, who heads a group called the Institute for the Secularization of Islamic Society, makes no bones about having a political agenda. ''Biblical scholarship has made people less dogmatic, more open,'' he said, ''and I hope that happens to Muslim society as well.''............

    18 years passed by.. That wonderful lady(not so wonderful to you) left the planet and we are still struggling and running in circles on this Origins of Quran and early Islam dear Altara..

    I started questioning my faith loong loong time back..  when I left my home as kid...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8718 - December 31, 2019, 09:52 PM

    Quote
    Hmm  you mean to say .. Mr. Cole has done better work on "Origins of Islam " than that Christoph Luxenberg??


    Nope. I mean only what I say.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8719 - January 01, 2020, 05:04 AM

    Quote
    Nope. I mean only what I say.

     
    Luxenberg is not an academic and nobody knows who he is as it is a pseudonym. Cole is. Better, he was semi Muslim (Bahai). It is enough to be praised by (some) of his Anglo-Saxon colleagues.
    Besides, of course, the author(s) of the Quran know Greek perfectly. Wink



    well Altara then Cole is better for what?

    telling Islamic stories for children  on you tube??

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkXfXcKqKiI

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNvg6xtKri8

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFEM7dJGsU4


    Quote
    Cole is from a mixed Catholic and Protestant heritage, but was brought up a non-denominational Protestant on army bases. In the late 1960s and the 1970s, he became interested in Eastern religions, including Buddhism. Cole became a member of the Bahá'í Faith in 1972 as an undergraduate at Northwestern, and the religion later became a focus of his academic research. He resigned from the faith in 1996 after disputes with Bahá'í leadership concerning the Bahá'í system of administration, particularly the requirement to review works by Bahá'í authors when writing about the religion. He later became uninterested in organized religion as a personal matter.

    Cole married Shahin Malik in Lahore in 1982. The couple has a son, Arman, born in 1987


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8720 - January 01, 2020, 10:36 AM

    Quote
    Some scholars have all the credit. They come with the wildest theories and get retweeted by scholars who are in the front line to call others like Luxenberg complete nut cases. But whatever j. Cole produces is taken seriously. Am I missing something?


    Cole is an academic.Luxenberg is not, he is only a pen name that nobody knows and maybe a non Protestant (majority of Anglo-Saxon scholars in the field) Christian. Plus Cole is an open minded guy who has converted to Bahaism married a Pakistani girl, etc. That is why he gets praises and RTs for his work whereas Luxenberg got sarcasms for his. My two cents (of course... yawn...)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8721 - January 01, 2020, 11:59 AM

    Liesbeth Zack - review of Arabic in Context Celebrating 400 years of Arabic at Leiden University

    https://pure.uva.nl/ws/files/33291282/Zack_2019_BIOR7503_review_Al_Jallad.pdf
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8722 - January 01, 2020, 01:59 PM

    Liesbeth Zack - review of Arabic in Context Celebrating 400 years of Arabic at Leiden University

    https://pure.uva.nl/ws/files/33291282/Zack_2019_BIOR7503_review_Al_Jallad.pdf



    Quote
    http://400yearsarabic.weebly.com/uploads/1/5/7/7/15770682/arabic-in-context-program.pdf

    Ahmad Al-Jallad, Ph.D. (2012) Harvard University, is an Assistant Professor at Leiden University. He has published on the comparative grammar of the Semitic languages, the history of Arabic, and on the epigraphy of Ancient North Arabia, including An Outline of the Grammar of the Safaitic Inscriptions (Brill, 2015).

    Contributors are: Ahmad Al-Jallad, Martin F. J. Baasten, Johnny Cheung, Guillaume Dye, Lutz Edzard, Jordi Ferrer i Serra, Francesco Grande, John Huehnergard, Geoffrey Khan, Manfred Kropp, Alexander Magidow, Daniele Mascitelli, Laïla Nehmé, Na’ama Pat-El, and Andrzej Zaborski.


    that would be interesting collection of articles to read... it may throw some new ideas on origins of Arabic language ., I am still of the opinion that Arabic script was there before the year 500 or so .. way before Quran manuscripts were written  .. off course I  have no proof..

    So dear zeca do you believe in  Ahmad Al-Jallad's Archaeological story of Arabic language from those rocks /rock inscriptions??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8723 - January 01, 2020, 02:16 PM

    Quote
    I am still of the opinion that Arabic script was there before the year 500 or so


    Of course that statement is true. We have the epigraphic evidence with the dated Zebed inscription of 512 a.o.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8724 - January 01, 2020, 02:29 PM

    Of course that statement is true. We have the epigraphic evidence with the dated Zebed inscription of 512 a.o.

    I am NOT thinking about that islamic-awareness.org material  dear mundi

    I am thinking in terms of similar to that "Ancient Greek literature, Syriac literature, Latin literature, Indian literature, Ancient Hebrew writings, or that Avesta"., what I mean to say is., I question All folks and every Academic of Arabic literature  who thinks  "that  QURAN MANUSCRIPTS were the first Arabic scripts that were in written form and NOTHING WAS THERE BEFORE THAT..."

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8725 - January 01, 2020, 02:48 PM

    Yeez,

    I think the inscriptions are an indication that much more was circulating. You can't transmit a script by making an inscription every few decades. It is an indication that there was a transmission system teaching people (children?) how to write in  Arabic+ script and that it also had a useful purpose.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8726 - January 01, 2020, 02:53 PM

    Yeez,

    I think the inscriptions are an indication that much more was circulating. You can't transmit a script by making an inscription every few decades. It is an indication that there was a transmission system teaching people (children?) how to write in  Arabic+ script and that it also had a useful purpose.

    what does that mean? So you are agreeing with me??

     if that is so.,   be careful  Not only Marc., even Altara will attack you. Cheesy Cheesy.

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8727 - January 01, 2020, 03:18 PM

    Yeez,

    I think I agree with you. I don't know if there was any great Arabic literature in Arabic script pre-conquest, but it seems obvious to me that there was much more than an inscription here and there every half century.

    There is no extant literary work 7th C post conquest either we must remember. Improbable that all would be lost? So maybe there was no Arabic literature yet (except the Quran). But we do have plenty of extant papyri written in Quranic Arabic.

    So maybe pre-Islam there was commercial Arabic in Arabic script? Seems the minimum to explain the extant inscriptions. Was there more? no proof yet...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8728 - January 01, 2020, 05:00 PM

    Quote
    I am thinking in terms of similar to that "Ancient Greek literature, Syriac literature, Latin literature, Indian literature, Ancient Hebrew writings, or that Avesta".,


    There was nothing like this in (whatever) Arabic script Yeez before the Quran.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8729 - January 01, 2020, 07:33 PM

    Quote
    There was nothing like this in (whatever) Arabic script Yeez before the Quran.


    Yes Altara, seems probable. But what was there? There must have been something. I suggest commercial notes at minimum. Do you have other ideas?
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