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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8670 - December 25, 2019, 06:24 PM

    17:1

    DAM 01-29.1 has it (Corpus C, no picture). It is C14' ed 640-660
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8671 - December 25, 2019, 07:19 PM

    From Zoroastrian to Islamic Iran: A Note on the Christian Intermezzo
    Quote
    This essay discusses several Iranian copper coins with Christian symbols and slogans in the context of the transition period from Sasanian to Islamic Iran in the 7 th century CE. It is suggested that these coins demonstrate the power of the local Christian community in the province of Pārs and their ability to mint these coins which were circulated in the local economy. It appears that the Christians were able to mint coins, either with the invasion of the Roman Emperor, Heraclius in the late 620s, or during the period of Arab Muslim conquest. While the first possibility would suggest the capability of the Christians to mint coins in a time of chaos in Ērānšahr, the latter choice suggests the working of the local Christian community with the conquerors in the province of Pārs.


    https://www.academia.edu/41411281/From_Zoroastrian_to_Islamic_Iran_A_Note_on_the_Christian_Intermezzo?fs=bw-1248638177
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8672 - December 25, 2019, 07:24 PM

    17:1

    DAM 01-29.1 has it (Corpus C, no picture). It is C14' ed 640-660




    DAM 01-29.1 in French:
    https://www.academia.edu/38824798/Un_nouveau_t%C3%A9moignage_sur_la_fixation_du_canon_coranique_dans_les_d%C3%A9buts_de_lIslam_le_manuscrit_%E1%B9%A2an_%C4%81_DAM_01-29.1._CRAI_2018-II_avril-juin_%C3%A0_para%C3%AEtre

    Quote
    the DAM 01-29.1, both with material and graphical characteristics attributable to the early period (late 7th - early 8th century AD).
    The different types of writing used in this manuscript - all tending towards B.Ia of F. Deroche's classification20 - are chronologically consistent: they were probably used during the first half of the 8th century. Moreover, these writings share common points with the types of writing used by the lower layer of the palimpsest DAM 01-27.1: in addition to the inclination and elongation of the vertical hastes, several letters have a similar layout21. The number of lines on the page, varying between sixteen and fifty lines, is also a common point between these fragments.

    According to various material observations, this manuscript was probably copied at the beginning of the 8th century AD. The format and the writings used associate it with a set - whose writing is classified B.Ia - relatively well represented in the various collections that we know of. The similarities noted between our volume and the lower layer of the palimpsest DAM 01-27.1 assume that there is a close link between these two copies. A study of the text will make it possible to clarify the nature of these relationships.
    The Qur'anic text of DAM 01-29.1 is clearly related to the textual tradition 'uṯmānienne. There are, however, some variations of the consonant text. Some of them belong to the same types of variations found in other manuscripts belonging to the same tradition, such as the modification of a pronoun suffix23 , the addition of a conjunction or a particle24 or a pronoun25. However, other variations of DAM 01-29.1 are more unusual. In terms of spelling, this manuscript has the originality of frequently inserting the vowel attack (hamza), represented by the letter alif26. Other variants go beyond the orthographic framework: apart from the rather frequent omission of a word or a particle, which can be considered as a simple omission, two terms are sometimes inverted27, words are sometimes added28, chords in the masculine become feminine29.
    But it is to the order of the suras and the anomaly, encountered between suras 80 ('abasa) and 81 (at-takwīr), that we devote the following study. In DAM 01-29.1, the order observed for the twenty-four transitions between suras corresponds exactly to the review of 'Uṯmān, except for one time, on the front of f.33. There, between the end of sura 'abasa and the beginning of sura at-takwīr, there was a text of about a dozen lines.which was vigorously scraped and then rewritten. The damage caused by deleting the text makes deciphering it extremely difficult. Nevertheless, there are still some rare clues that can be seen. First, the basmala, the introductory formula of each sura, at the beginning of the first line, has remained intact; it attests that it was certainly a sura. Second, in the last line, the tail of a ya' (or maqsura alif) - a letter much less frequent than a simple nun - is identifiable three times. Finally, if we cross this data with the approximate calculation of the portion of text represented, only one Qur'anic passage seems to coincide: that of sura 75 (al-qiyāma).
    In short, this manuscript originally reflected a text relatively close to the Koranic canon embodied in the tradition 'uṯmānienne, much more so than is the palimpsest DAM 01-27.1. However, the preserved fragments show that, on at least two occasions, it underwent the same treatment: a substantial part of the text was deleted. On the one hand, the order of the suras was restored, on the other hand, divergent verses were rewritten. These variations are of the same nature as those already identified in the palimpsest31 ; but in the latter, they are more frequent and more pronounced: to give just one example, Suras 9 and 19 follow one another. No folio is free of textual variants involving transpositions, synonyms or omissions.
    According to Islamic sources, these types of variations would also characterize the competing codices, destroyed by 'Uṯmān. Some of these reviews seem to have survived several centuries, so that some information is available about their specificities, some of which coincide with our manuscript. In the codex of Ibn Mas'ūd, very popular in the city of Kūfa, the order of suras was different: suras 'abasa (80) and at-takwīr (81) were not consecutive, but were separated by a group of three or four suras, among them, sura al-qiyāma (75)32.
    which was vigorously scraped and then rewritten. The damage caused by deleting the text makes deciphering it extremely difficult. Nevertheless, there are still some rare clues that can be seen. First, the basmala, the introductory formula of each sura, at the beginning of the first line, has remained intact; it attests that it was certainly a sura. Second, in the last line, the tail of a ya' (or maqsura alif) - a letter much less frequent than a simple nun - is identifiable three times. Finally, if we cross this data with the approximate calculation of the portion of text represented, only one Qur'anic passage seems to coincide: that of sura 75 (al-qiyāma).
    In the same codex, exegetes mention variants relating to the consonant text. These variants are numerous and unevenly distributed throughout the Qur'an; some passages are particularly affected by the variation, notably between verses 21 and 25 of Sura seventy-one. This is the very place where the text has been erased. However, the variants of DAM 01-29.1 - like those of the palimpsest - do not completely coincide with the literary descriptions in the codices of the Companions. A reminiscence of these variants can still be found in f. 3v, Q. 3:49, where the sentence is given in feminine form, following the example of the codex of Ibn Mas'ūd33.
    Can we think, as for the palimpsest, that we have here a codex inherited from the recension of another Companion of Muḥammad? Its proximity to the canon suggests that such a recension does not represent another branch of the transmission, but rather an alteration of the official text, contaminated by another recension. Our manuscript certainly confirms the existence of these codices of the generation following that of the Companions,
    such as that of Sa'īd al-Jubayr (died in 692); codices that were openly eclectic34 but whose recollection in the texts is very imprecise.
    The manuscripts of Ṣan 'ā' - the palimpsest DAM 01-27.1, the DAM 01-29.1 and others no doubt35 - show, in any case, that the review of 'Uṯmān did not impose itself from the outset, but that it underwent a more nuanced phase of reception, and a more fluid transmission. A stage which we can reach today, thanks to the testimony of the manuscripts.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8673 - December 25, 2019, 08:27 PM

    Altara,

    Dam 01-29.01 has been C14'ed twice according to my notes.

    1/ by the lab in Lyon (seems to be unreliable): 95% between 603-662 AD
    2/ by Corpus Coranicum: 95% probability btw 640-660 AD

    I dont know why E. Cellard doesnt mention the C14 dates.
    And like I said, Corpus doesnt show the image of 17:1, just claims the manuscript contains it.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8674 - December 25, 2019, 08:41 PM



    Now dear Marc.. why would you need to assume those words "Sacred Mosque and  farthest Mosque" means .. the present Mosque  in Mecca and the one  Mosque in Jerusalem ??..



    I only said that verse was added AFTER the rest of this surah was written and by a different author. Scholars know this because the whole surah verses do rhyme and end in āan except for verse 1. The later addition is therefore not a possibility but a fact logically deducted  Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8675 - December 25, 2019, 09:24 PM

    Quote
    The later addition is therefore not a possibility but a fact logically deducted


    Rhyme for me is not an evidence of addition.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8676 - December 25, 2019, 10:14 PM

    Altara,

    Dam 01-29.01 has been C14'ed twice according to my notes.

    1/ by the lab in Lyon (seems to be unreliable): 95% between 603-662 AD
    2/ by Corpus Coranicum: 95% probability btw 640-660 AD

    I dont know why E. Cellard doesnt mention the C14 dates.
    And like I said, Corpus doesnt show the image of 17:1, just claims the manuscript contains it.

    Because she knows they are not reliable...

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8677 - December 26, 2019, 09:32 AM

    Altara,

    Quote
    Because she knows they are not reliable...


    She should address this issue then.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8678 - December 26, 2019, 12:42 PM

    It is not her job. Her job is to note that C14 is not able to give reliable dates regarding the early manuscripts that one have.Thereby to not use it. I think she's right.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8679 - December 26, 2019, 02:49 PM

    Interesting talk of Robin: "L'Arabie de Muhammad : variations dans la manière de nommer Dieu"

    https://www.college-de-france.fr/site/jean-noel-robert/symposium-2018-06-25-15h10.htm

    The thing that surprises me most is that Robin does not question the Mecca narrative. No question mark, no doubt: Mecca full blast (last 5 minutes)

    Any explanation?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8680 - December 26, 2019, 04:02 PM

     Robin plays on the two boards. Particularly visible in this article on academia  : L’ARABIE À LA VEILLE DE L’ISLAM dans l’ouvrage de Aziz al-Azmeh, The Emergence of Islam in Late Antiquity

    https://www.academia.edu/37672955/_LArabie_%C3%A0_la_veille_de_lIslam_dans_louvrage_de_Aziz_al-Azmeh_The_Emergence_of_Islam_in_Late_Antiquity_in_Topoi_21_2017_pp._291-320
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8681 - December 27, 2019, 05:45 PM

    Robin plays on the two boards. Particularly visible in this article on academia  : L’ARABIE À LA VEILLE DE L’ISLAM dans l’ouvrage de Aziz al-Azmeh, The Emergence of Islam in Late Antiquity

    https://www.academia.edu/37672955/_LArabie_%C3%A0_la_veille_de_lIslam_dans_louvrage_de_Aziz_al-Azmeh_The_Emergence_of_Islam_in_Late_Antiquity_in_Topoi_21_2017_pp._291-320

    well I guess .. how many boards and which board a person is playing the game depends upon the place where he is playing dear Altara

    Quote
    Muhammad's Arabia: Variations in the Name of God..Christian Robin
     
    http://www.college-de-france.fr/video/jean-noel-robert/2018/06-col-robert-robin-20180625.mp4


    Hmm..

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdEDn9-Lb3A

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQ0WIXS2IdE


    unlike Americans , French  & British  have different problems with Islam .. I wonder it is because of their COLONIAL LEGACY in Africa middle east and Asian subcontinents  .. America  being very young nation with guns  they do not have that baggage

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8682 - December 28, 2019, 11:31 PM

    I wasn’t aware of this but the British Library has a searchable online collection of phd theses.

    https://ethos.bl.uk/Home.do?new=1

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=emb_title&v=1HuFyeOM-94
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8683 - December 29, 2019, 12:15 AM

    Thanks Zeca.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8684 - December 29, 2019, 12:24 AM

    Patricia Crone’s thesis is available for example: https://ethos.bl.uk/OrderDetails.do?did=1&uin=uk.bl.ethos.337480
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8685 - December 29, 2019, 12:51 AM

    Alba Fedeli: https://ethos.bl.uk/OrderDetails.do?did=1&uin=uk.bl.ethos.646219
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8686 - December 29, 2019, 05:28 PM

     Gibson's Al Aqsa : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHSlbNbYXIw
     Gibson's  Abraha : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAElTI09eZU surely Alien elephants...

    The green desert... with Roman mosaics... I think he starts slowly to become crazy... I'm sad...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8687 - December 29, 2019, 08:23 PM

    Gibson:

    I think the first video pointing out the location problems concerning Al Aqsa and Masjid al Haram quite good and useful.

    His second video concerning Abraha is indeed not his greatest... His adherence to the islamic tradition is sometimes just too much.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8688 - December 29, 2019, 08:59 PM

    Even the 1st video is problematic...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8689 - December 29, 2019, 09:23 PM

    Gibson:

    I think the first video pointing out the location problems concerning Al Aqsa and Masjid al Haram quite good and useful.

    His second video concerning Abraha is indeed not his greatest... His adherence to the islamic tradition is sometimes just too much.

    Hi mundi .... what is quite good and what is so useful in these Gibson's tubes??
    Gibson's Al Aqsa : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHSlbNbYXIw
     Gibson's  Abraha : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAElTI09eZU surely Alien elephants...
    . I'm sad...

     
    and  Altara says   "Altara is sad and Even the 1st video is problematic..."
    Even the 1st video is problematic...

    dear Alatra ., no need to be sad., Gibson must have freedom to explore his ideas  however crazy they are   but what I say about Gibson's work  is ........... "when  it comes true  early History of Islam and origins of Quran (before says year 650)....  whatever Gibson wrote is problematic "., The only thing that is good  in what he says is..........  "American Hollywood can make movies based on his stories"

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8690 - December 29, 2019, 09:35 PM

    Gibson and Al Aqsa:

    What is a good theory for the location of these places? Altara, I assume we agree they are not where the Islamic tradition says they are.

    B-E says masjid al Haram is in Jerusalem (temple Mount).  Gibson says it is in Petra. Until now, B-E makes most sense to me. Anyone another suggestion? A beer for the one who changes my mind by his/her good arguments.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8691 - December 29, 2019, 10:25 PM

    There is no place of al Aqsa. The Temple mosque has been named like this because of the interpretation of the verse.Masjid al Haram is evidently the Temple in Jerusalem.








  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8692 - December 29, 2019, 10:28 PM

    Altara,

    Makes sense. So still B-E, he was first. No beer for you Altara.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8693 - December 29, 2019, 11:53 PM

    I prefer wine Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8694 - December 30, 2019, 02:48 AM

    Funny that Gibson doesnt quote this (or maybe I missed it)  ; you need to scroll down almost to the end of the article.

    http://nabataea.net/elephants.html
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8695 - December 30, 2019, 07:01 AM

    Funny that Gibson doesnt quote this (or maybe I missed it)  ;  you need to scroll down almost to the end of the article.

    http://nabataea.net/elephants.html

    Hellu Marc.,   all that what Gibson writes is OK., and he must have freedom to write and tell stories but what has that has to do with early Islam? is that because of that silly verse in Quran mentions "Elephant"??    what is the big deal about it ...
    Surah  Al-Fil ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,the  5 verses surah....
    Quote
    1.   Have you not considered how your Lord dealt with the possessors of the elephant?
    2.   Did He not cause their war to end in confusion,
    3.   And send down (to prey) upon them birds in flocks,
    4.   Casting against them stones of baked clay,
    5.    So He rendered them like straw eaten up?


    Gibson or anyone else can write as many stories as they like but why that surah, that elephant in it  has to do with anything with those Nabataeans??   I mean any Arabic song writer/story teller could have written those few rhyming statements

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8696 - December 30, 2019, 07:42 AM

    Yeez and Marc,

    On the elephant and Surah Al-Fil

    I agree Yeez that probably Abraha had nothing to do with elephants. The depicted Nabatean elephants might have as much historical value as the omnipresent lions depicted in medieval Northern Europe?

    Gibson in his video misses the chance to point out the inconsistency between the Abraha of history and the Abraha of the Islamic tradition. I guess it is easier to stick with that tradition and letting an elephant march from Yemen to Petra?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8697 - December 30, 2019, 09:14 AM

    Quote
    I guess it is easier to stick with that tradition and letting an elephant march from Yemen to Petra?


    Yes. As time goes by, he is less and less credible...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8698 - December 30, 2019, 11:11 AM

    Forthcoming thesis.

    Daniel Paul Neary - Doctrinal controversy and the Church economy of post-Chalcedon Palestine

    https://ethos.bl.uk/OrderDetails.do?did=3&uin=uk.bl.ethos.767725
    Quote
    The Fourth Ecumenical Council, held at Chalcedon in 451, began a period of extraordinary social and political crisis across the Eastern Mediterranean. In Palestine, as elsewhere, the centuries that followed were characterised by internecine conflict between local Christians, persisting until the collapse of Roman authority in the region during the reign of the emperor Heraclius. Since Edward Gibbon, historians have struggled to contextualise this debate, ostensibly an argument between proponents of rival, but also substantially identical, Christologies. This thesis considers what role socio-economic factors may have played in shaping contemporary accounts of the Council's fraught reception. It asks whether this may have distorted our understanding of a defining Late Antique debate. Chalcedon's reforms had wide-reaching consequences, not only for the Empire's official Christological policy, but for the broader structure of the 'Church economy,' the systems through which Christian institutions were financed and maintained, referred to at length in the Council's disciplinary canons. Its rulings held particular significance for Palestine in its status as the Christian 'Holy Land.' Here I explore this facet of Chalcedon's legacy, whilst considering how the language of doctrinal controversy generated by the Council served to frame episodes of material competition between rival communities of clerics and monks. The thesis offers a new reading of the texts produced by key actors in these confrontations, many of which have been historically neglected. It follows in the wake of recent attempts to analyse other religious conflicts of this period in light of contemporary social or political conditions, or through reference to 'networks' of influence and patronage. I apply this methodology to the study of the Palestinian partisans in the antagonism which followed Chalcedon, whilst also drawing upon the archaeologically-grounded study of material culture which has influenced so many other areas of early medieval history.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8699 - December 30, 2019, 12:26 PM

    Quote
    Church economy


    The text is not available yet but seems interesting.

    These small Palestine towns (eg in Negev) often had 5- 6 churches for a a seemingly limited population. Who paid for all that? Who paid for the monasteries?

    Did the financing change and maybe alleviate the burden on some communities with the Arabic conquests? Would that be a possible contribution to the success of the new religion in making?
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