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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8640 - December 22, 2019, 04:53 PM

    Marc and Altara,
    That might be enough for the Jewish inspired author of this part of the Quran or the followers to associate 2:125 with that location. Seems possible to me now.

    Me too ( Wink )


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8641 - December 22, 2019, 05:38 PM

    .......................That might be enough for the Jewish inspired author of this part of the Quran or the followers to associate 2:125 with that location. Seems possible to me now...


    "author of this part of the Quran "?  what is that supposed to mean dear mundi?..  Different parts Quran has different authors??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8642 - December 22, 2019, 05:55 PM

    Yeez,

    Yes, I think it is likely that there are different Quranic authors. Look at the hapaxes, the different styles...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8643 - December 22, 2019, 06:03 PM

    Yeez,

    Yes, I think it is likely that there are different Quranic authors. Look at the hapaxes, the different styles...

    dear mundi., you are too scientific to me in analyzing Quran................, common it is just a book of faith...

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8644 - December 22, 2019, 07:05 PM

    I dont understand your objection to the possibility Marc?


    Everything is possible even that aliens wrote the Quran. Is it likely ? Well I don't think so.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8645 - December 22, 2019, 07:12 PM

    Marc,

    It's reading Hollands Dominion that convinced me of the centrality of the Temple Mount forJews and Christians in the Palestine area in Late Antiquity...
    Maybe it is not verse 2:125 that triggered the building of "the house", maybe the zeitgeist did that, and 2:125 is a reflection/expression of that same spirit.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8646 - December 22, 2019, 10:51 PM

    Marc,

    It's reading Hollands Dominion that convinced me of the centrality of the Temple Mount forJews and Christians in the Palestine area in Late Antiquity...
    Maybe it is not verse 2:125 that triggered the building of "the house", maybe the zeitgeist did that, and 2:125 is a reflection/expression of that same spirit.

    ..

    I say when that verse/verses was added in to initial Quranic manuscripts .. THERE WAS NO ISLAM

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8647 - December 23, 2019, 01:25 AM

    Quote
    I say when that verse/verses was added in to initial Quranic manuscripts .. THERE WAS NO ISLAM

    There was no islam because there was no Mecca/Kaba/Muhammad/Zem zem.
    The people who had Quranic texts in hand in the 7 th c. are outside this frame.
    They do not know from where the texts were, they do not know who wrote them, they know nothing.
    All of this is evidenced by the fact that they do not understand these texts. Words, expressions, entire passages are not understood as attests the tafsir as it is remarked by many scholars.
    They were not with the Prophet at the Zem zem well near the Kaba, eating fruits, drinking wine, walking in the prairie.
    Because nothing of that exists in the Western peninsula where "Mecca" is.
    This aspect is confirmed by the facts that  Arabs who take over Syria Palestine and Egypt never attest in any way that they were in Mecca/Medina/Zem zem/Kaba before. And those who have observed and lived with them, never attest of that in their writings.
    And I think most of the scholars who deals with Early Islam know it Wink
    And they STFU. Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8648 - December 23, 2019, 08:11 AM

    Hmm.. Altara  throws some nuggets in response to this

    ..
    I say when that verse/verses was added in to initial Quranic manuscripts .. THERE WAS NO ISLAM

    That I said  to Quran verses that are around 2:126., and there are plenty of such verses in Quran.. ., And Altara responds with some important points., let me make his post as pointers

    1).  There was no Islam because there was no Mecca/Kaba/Muhammad/Zem zem. The people who had Quranic texts in hand in the 7 th c. are outside this frame. and They did not know from where the texts came from, they do not know who wrote them, they knew nothing.

    2),  All of this is evidenced by the fact that they did not understand these texts. Words, expressions, entire passages are not understood as attests the tafsir as it is remarked by many scholars. They were not with the Prophet at the Zem zem well near the Kaba, eating fruits, drinking wine, walking in the prairie.

    3).  Because nothing of that exists in the Western peninsula where "Mecca" is. This aspect is confirmed by the facts that  Arabs who take over Syria Palestine and Egypt never attest in any way that they were in Mecca/Medina/Zem zem/Kaba before. And those who have observed and lived with them, never attest of that in their writings.

    4). And I think most of the scholars who deals with Early Islam know it Wink And they STFU. Wink 

     
    That sounds good., now I wonder whether Marc considers those highlighted pointers as  gems or it is all just  drink and piss   zem...zem  water??   

    so dear Altara let me frame some questions on those pointers ., well let me go backward

    4).   What  is STFU?  sounds like an angry outburst .. and why all these "Students of Islamic Theology Fucked Up," when it comes to inquiring Islamic history objectively? what good reason could you think for that? I means there are/were thousands of them with 1000s of books/publications..

    3). well I  fully agree with point three., the fact ..there is no archaeological evidence of big city in the area around present Mecca should have started people to think origins of Islam in a different way than what is normally assumed in the school books. 

     It  is extremely important for these FUCKED UP STUDENTS OF ISLAMIC THEOLOGY INQUIRERS  who write tons of book/publication to rethink on that point again.. well some folks already started penning and questioning hadith literature and its connection to Quran  but much more need to be done with clear cut proofs

    2). Now on this point 2.,  when you say.,  ..... they did not understand these texts. Words, expressions, entire passages are not understood as attests the tafsir.....

    Whom are you referring in that word "they"?  those "They Guys".    Are you talking about writers of Quran manuscripts or those Arabs who conquered Syria Palestine and Egypt ?  those Abbasid ...... Umayyad caliph regimes

    1).  Again on point 1.,  whne you say., .......The people who had Quranic texts in hand in the 7 th c. are outside this frame. and They did not know from where the texts came from, they did not know who wrote them, they knew nothing....

    Are you talking about Authors of early Arabic Quranic manuscripts or those Arab folks who got hold of those manuscripts who could read Arabic language  but  were not proficient enough to write  such intelligent movie/drama scripts  as present Quran  which looks like Bernard Shaw book... ............The dialogues  with Allah in Arabic.......'   

     'clearly  many of these early  Quran manuscripts must  have  been there  in other language before they got published in Arabic and they became famous because of those  Abbasid and . Umayyad caliph regimes

    well anyways. STUDENT is a better word to use than that word "SCHOLARS"

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8649 - December 23, 2019, 10:49 AM

    4/ https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/STFU
    3/ to rethink on that point again.. : They will not do it. Personal stakes (career).
    2/  those Arabs who conquered Syria Palestine and Egypt
    1/ those Arab folks who got hold of those manuscripts  in the 7th c. who could read Arabic language.
    Quote
    'clearly  many of these early  Quran manuscripts must  have  been there  in other language

    Nope.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8650 - December 23, 2019, 07:01 PM

    https://mobile.twitter.com/NaqadStudies/status/1208951649018011649
    Quote
    There are several 7th c non-Muslim accounts that are thought to describe contemporary assessments of Muhammad during his lifetime. One of these is the "Doctrina Jacobi nuper baptizati."

    Let's look at a well-known theory by Crone and Cook, and a counter-theory by Yehûdā Nevô.

    Doctrina Jacobi (D. Jacobi) is set in the year 634 CE, and probably written within a few years of this date. The relevant passage purports to be a letter from a Palestinian Jew named Abraham:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teaching_of_Jacob

    Crone and Cook (1977) accept this as a reference to Muḥammad - or rather, that it preserves an older, more historical set of facts about Muḥammad, which later Islam suppressed because of its Judeo-Messianism.

    Specifically, they point out this Saracen prophet was alive at the time of the invasion, personally led it, proclaimed himself to be the herald of the (Jewish) Messiah, and claimed to hold the keys of Paradise.

    Nevô (2003) asks, why should one identify the reference in D. Jacobi with Muḥammad? If this prophet in question existed, he fit the general Judaic and Christian monotheistic background.

    Moreover, it is more likely that this message was proclaimed in Aramaic than in Arabic, for if his proclamations worried people they must have been in a language widely understood by both the Jews and Christians in the area.

    Any widely known theological message behind a conquering prophet would likely be in the language of the conquered. If so, the group he was associated with had arisen in an Aramaic speaking community - which would mean a local (not Hijazi) one.

    Thirdly, D. Jacobi tells us little about the group's religion. It could have been any form of monotheism; and indeed it accords much more with Jewish, Judeo-Christian, or even Christian belief than it does with Islam.

    On all these counts, argues Nevô, D. Jacobi provides no support for the identification of this prophet with Muḥammad. In fact if one thing is clear, it is that the account in the D. Jacobi does not describe the Muḥammad we know from any other tradition.

    Crone and Cook acknowledge that "this testimony is of course irreconcilable with the Islamic account of the Prophet's career" - and conclude from this fact that we have here older material - "a stratum of belief older than the Islamic tradition itself" ..

    .. which "proves" that the true, historical Muḥammad led the invading Arabs, proclaimed the advent of the Messiah, and claimed to hold the keys of Paradise.

    However, the only reason for regarding this material as the original, true version of Islamic history is the a priori identification of the prophet here mentioned as Muḥammad.

    Yet if this material proves anything, says Nevô, it is that the prophet of the D. Jacobi can easily be almost anybody other than Muḥammad. Prophethood was, to use Wansbrough's  (1987) term, a monotheistic constant.

    In those troubled years of Late Antiquity and into the 7th c, contemporary accounts reveal that there was no shortage of such prophets, appealing to the various Christian and Jewish sects.

    It should be noted that Nevô provides this counter-argument within a larger thesis about the transition from Byzantine to Arab rule in the 7th c. His theory was that the Arab conquest was a fiction, or rather a legendary redaction.

    This redaction was composed in the 2nd half of the 7th c by Arabs who merged 3rd hand memories of the Byzantine-Persian wars with 2nd hand memories of their peaceful  acquisition of Byzantine territory.

    So, any early account of a conquering prophet is particularly suspect by Nevô. All texts that fit this descriptive category, including Sebeus (661), Secrets of Rabbi Simon ben Yoḥay (mid 8th c), and D Jacobi (634) above, are evaluated and dismissed as redactions or mis-ID's.

    Furthermore, Brock (1982) reminds us that only a few late chronicles provide any details of Muḥammad's early career - those after the Traditional Account had already been formulated by Arab authorities.

    Christians who came into contact with the newcomers and lived side buy side with them did not, apparently, learn from them anything of Islam for more than two generations. Byzantine and Syrian literature displays no knowledge of Islamic teachings until the early 8th c.

    Syriac authors recognize Islam as a new religion only late in the day; as Brock points out, "it was perhaps only with Dionysios of Tellmaḥre (d. 231/845) that we really get a full awareness of Islam as a new religion."

    In fact, not one early Syriac or Greek source describes the Arabs of the early 7th c as Muslims, or in terms we can recognize as conclusively Islamic. Various reasons for this have been proposed, Crone and Cook providing the Jewish Messianic-to-Arabic Prophet theory.

    However, Nevô concludes that no theory fits the case as well as the simple proposition that the 7th c Jews and Christians did not discern Islam because it was not there to discern.

    Resources cited:

    Crone, Patricia, and Michael Cook. Hagarism: the Making of the Islamic World. Cambridge Univ. Press, 1977.

    Nevô Yehûdā D., and Judith Koren. Crossroads to Islam: the Origins of the Arab Religion and the Arab State. Prometheus Books, 2003.

    Brock, Sebastian P. (1982). "Syriac Views of Emergent Islam." In Studies on the First Century of Islamic Society, edited by J. Y. N. Boll. Carbondale, Ill.: Southern Illinois University Press, 1982.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8651 - December 23, 2019, 07:49 PM

    Quote
    On all these counts, argues Nevô, D. Jacobi provides no support for the identification of this prophet with Muḥammad. In fact if one thing is clear, it is that the account in the D. Jacobi does not describe the Muḥammad we know from any other tradition.


    Nevo is right.

     
    Quote
    Crone p.3-4. The only way out of the dilemma is thus to step outside the Islamic tradition altogether and to start again . If we choose to start again, we begin with the Doctrina Jacobi [...] But the really startling thing about the Doctrina is its report that the Prophet was preaching the advent of 'the anointed one who is to come.
    That is to say the core of the Prophet's message, in the earliest testimony
    available to us outside the Islamic tradition, appears as Judaic messianism.


    She start again anything.The Prophet  of DC is Muhammad of Mecca/Kaba. who preach Judaeo Messianism. Gallez has drawn heavily on this....
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8652 - December 24, 2019, 12:03 AM

    That sounds good., now I wonder whether Marc considers those highlighted pointers as  gems or it is all just  drink and piss   zem...zem  water??   


    Well this is easy to answer :

    Quote
    The people who had Quranic texts in hand in the 7 th c. are outside this frame.


    Yes because the Quran doesn't tell any of the stories developped later in the Sira.

    Quote
    and They did not know from where the texts came from, they do not know who wrote them, they knew nothing.


    This one is a harder one to sell (see below).

    Quote
    they did not understand these texts. Words, expressions, entire passages are not understood as attests the tafsir as it is remarked by many scholars.


    I don't know how to link the above with this "  in hand in the 7 th c" . This would mean that we have tafsirs from the 7th century ; as far as I know, tafsirs start along with the Sira so with the 9th century ; some people might argue on the 8th c though ; therefore, I don't see how one can make such assumptions about the people who had quranic texts in the 7th century.

    Assuming something regarding 7th century holders of the text based on the comments of people living 2 centuries after does seem far stretch to me, just like assuming that the arab invaders of the 7th c had the Quran with them.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8653 - December 24, 2019, 01:01 AM

    Quote
    Yes because the Quran doesn't tell any of the stories developed later in the Sira.


    It does, but you do not see.

    Quote
    I don't know how to link the above with this "  in hand in the 7 th c" .


    The people who had Quranic texts in hand in the 7 th c. are outside this frame.
    They do not know from where the texts were, they do not know who wrote them, they know nothing.
    All of this is evidenced by the fact that  they do not understand these texts. Words, expressions, entire passages are not understood as attests the tafsir as it is remarked by many scholars.
    It is yet simple.
    Quote
    I don't see how one can make such assumptions about the people who had quranic texts in the 7th century.


    It's a fact, you do not see.

    Quote
    Assuming something regarding 7th century holders of the text based on the comments of people living 2 centuries after does seem far stretch to me


    I cannot do anything for you...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8654 - December 24, 2019, 01:03 AM

    Mars says  .. "easy to answer"  without really answering the question...
    Well this is easy to answer :

    ...

    Quote
    I don't know how to link the above with this "  in hand in the 7 th c" . This would mean that we have tafsirs from the 7th century ; as far as I know, tafsirs start along with the Sira so with the 9th century ;

    ........................

    dear Marc i do not understand that...  why would what Altars said mean  tafsirs of Quran are there from the 7th century??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8655 - December 24, 2019, 01:15 AM

    It does, but you do not see.


    Nope. The muslim scholars had to write a story and try & match it with the Quran  ; therefore, they built a framework and inserted references to the Quran in it but, in reality, those stories they made up were therefore not in the Quran ; they did the same with ahadith that they took from jewish or christian writings and put it on Muhammad. A good example, as I already explained on that forum is with sura al massad.

    Quote
    All of this is evidenced by the fact that  they do not understand these texts. Words, expressions, entire passages are not understood as attests the tafsir as it is remarked by many scholars.


    Which ones , from which century ?

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8656 - December 24, 2019, 01:25 AM

    Mars says  .. "easy to answer"  without really answering the question...........................
    dear Marc i do not understand that...  why would what Altars said mean  tafsirs of Quran are there from the 7th century??


    Well, it seems to me that if you wanna know about people from the 7th c then you should look at sources from the same era ; therefore as tafsirs are mentionned as a proof on those people understanding of the text then I am assuming this is a reference to 7th century tafsirs. If  it is in fact a reference to 9th century tafsirs writers and you think because those 9 c guys didn't understand the text then the 7th c people holding that text didn't neither then something is really wrong here.


    Same thing happened with Christianity.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8657 - December 24, 2019, 02:00 AM

    Quote
    Nope. The muslim scholars had to write a story and try & match it with the Quran


    It's the other way around.

    Quote
    therefore, they built a framework and inserted references to the Quran in it but, in reality, those stories they made up were therefore not in the Quran


    It is the amateur view of the  modern times you give. Unfortunately the way of think and  work of Late Antique Semitic people  has nothing to see with the one one have been trained.
    As I already said, you're not trained with ancient mentalities of the Mediterranean Basin.
    Quote
    they did the same with ahadith that they took from jewish or christian writings and put it on Muhammad. A good example, as I already explained on that forum is with sura al massad.


    I do not know any sura al massad. I only know the numbers...
    The hadiths are the same way of the Sira: elaborations from the Quran and the stories already drawn from it and embellished for the sake of the cause : the Law.

    Quote
    Which ones , from which century ?


    The Tabari one shows it as he is quoting many authors before him giving what they think of this or that.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8658 - December 24, 2019, 09:42 AM

    David Cook writes that there are a thousand of document-able texts that have been the sources for the Quran. If I remember correctly, he also writes that we should look to traders and travelers, not scholars, to find the origins of the Quran.
    Reynolds:
    "After all the Qur'an does not encounter the Bible (which was not translated into Arabic at the dawn of Islam) but rather the oral Biblical traditions of late antiquity. This is why references to Jesus' bringing a bird to life are next to his healing the blind and the leper."
    https://twitter.com/GabrielSaidR/status/1136248464462008320

    There are hardly one quotation from the bible in the Quran, but the bible seems to be "everywhere" in that book.
    My question is: Do you think that those who wrote/ compiled/ edited the quran, changed the bible by will, or did they just wrote what they have heard through oral traditions? Was the Quran created by laymen or by scholars having a complete bible which they read and changed, to fit into "The Believers movement"?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8659 - December 24, 2019, 12:34 PM

    Quote
    My question is: Do you think that those who wrote/ compiled/ edited the quran, changed the bible by will, or did they just wrote what they have heard through oral traditions? Was the Quran created by laymen or by scholars having a complete bible which they read and changed, to fit into "The Believers movement"?

    Dear Asbjoern1958
    Could you ask Reynolds about that?  I'll comment what he'll say.Wink
    Could be interesting as well  to ask MVP if it is mandatory to have an oral tradition to get different qiraat therefore to get the Quran Wink

    Quote
    There are hardly one quotation from the bible in the Quran, but the bible seems to be "everywhere" in that book.

    Yes. Everywhere and nowhere. Any ideas?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8660 - December 24, 2019, 01:13 PM

    Dear Altara. I can try to ask Reynolds about that, but he seldom answer questions.
    I am the least qualified in this forum to answer where in the Quran the Bible was used as a source.
    Btw,  merry Christmas to all in the forum. I am soon going to celebrate with my family.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8661 - December 24, 2019, 01:19 PM

    Dear Asbjoern1958,
    Merry Christmas to you and your family, and all the forum. I do it as well (catholic family here Wink )
    Reynolds ( MVP as well.) seems not to be a bad guy, I encourage you to try, one never know, it is the salt of life Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8662 - December 24, 2019, 01:53 PM

    Der Islam 96 (2019) issue 2

    https://www.academia.edu/41407210/Der_Islam_96_2019_issue_2
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8663 - December 24, 2019, 03:45 PM

    Conference on the Transmission and Reception of the Qurʾān in Light of Recent Scholarship

    https://islamicstudies.harvard.edu/news/conference-transmission-and-reception-qurʾān-light-recent-scholarship
    Quote
    At the end of the Fall 2019 semester, Professor Shady Nasser convened a conference in which leading experts in Qurʾānic studies from North America and Europe shared their recent and impactful work related to the history of the reception of the Qurʾān.

    The conference attracted both specialists and a general audience from across Harvard and other universities including Brandeis University, Yale University and the University of Chicago. The speakers included François Déroche, Professor of the History of the Qurʾān, Text and Transmission, Collège de France; Walid Saleh, Professor of Islamic Studies and Director of the Institute of Islamic Studies, University of Toronto; Behnam Sadeghi, Fellow in QuCip, University of Oxford; Gabriel Reynolds, Professor of Islamic Studies and Theology, University of Notre Dame; Alba Fedeli, Research Associate, Universität Hamburg; Geoffrey Khan, Regius Professor of Hebrew, University of Cambridge; Intisar Rabb, Professor of Law and Director of the Program in Islamic Law, Harvard Law School; and the chair of the conference, Shady Nasser, Assistant Professor of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations, Harvard University.

    Videos of the panels are now available...

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8664 - December 24, 2019, 05:29 PM

    Thanks Zeca.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8665 - December 24, 2019, 06:55 PM

    It's the other way around.


    I understood (correct me if I am wrong) that you agreed S17v1 is an addition to the Quran; If it is an addition, and knowing the full story elaborated in the Sira and the ahadith around it, then it proves my point : a frame put over the Quran to make people believe this book is holding that story while it is not. Now, I am not saying that some parts of the Quran didn't influence the Sira ; mentionning a victory at Badr might have incited the Sira authors to elaborate that famous battle (but they could also have made it without being influenced by the Quran and decided to apply that name to this event).

    Quote
    The hadiths are the same way of the Sira: elaborations from the Quran and the stories already drawn from it and embellished for the sake of the cause : the Law.


    Well I suggest you read the paper of Hans Von Mzik  The Gideon-Saul Legend and the Tradition of the Battle of Badr in Quranic Allusions edited by Ibn Waraq show that some events related to Badr were a copy of some part of the Gideon-Saul story in the Bible.

    Quote
    The Tabari one shows it as he is quoting many authors before him giving what they think of this or that.


    Well if that is satisfatory evidence for you, it is not for me.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8666 - December 24, 2019, 07:36 PM

    Quote
    A good example, as I already explained on that forum is with sura al massad.

     
    I do not know any sura al massad. I only know the numbers...



    well you have written on that surah number of times here in this folder dear Altara.. Surah al massad is Surah 111  .,   let me put those verses here  after all it is just 5 verses surah.,

    Quote
    1). Perdition overtake both hands of Abu Lahab, and he will perish.
    2).   His wealth and what he earns will not avail him.
    3). He shall soon burn in fire that flames,
    4). And his wife, the bearer of fuel,
    5).  Upon her neck a halter of strongly twisted rope.


    well Abu Lahab, was supposed to be uncle  of our Prophet (PBUH)

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8667 - December 25, 2019, 02:43 AM

    I understood (correct me if I am wrong) that you agreed S17v1 is an addition to the Quran;


    Yes,
    1/addition is plausible.
    2/ But not necessarily.

    Quote
    If it is an addition, and knowing the full story elaborated in the Sira and the ahadith around it, then it proves my point : a frame iput over the Quran to make people believe this book is holding that story while it is not

    .

    1/It is a impressive detail of the Muhammad saga.But a detail. Are there others additions like this one ? Maybe.
    2/ Why? Because  Quranic texts can be seen as a succession of formally additions;  as such, this verse could have been written in the original rasm  because the auhor(s)wanted this verse to be there. And the story drawn from it . The verse is sufficiently cryptic; it allows embellishments one can get a lot out of it, as attests the narrative.

    Quote
    Well I suggest you read the paper of Hans Von Mzik  The Gideon-Saul Legend and the Tradition of the Battle of Badr in Quranic Allusions edited by Ibn Waraq show that some events related to Badr were a copy of some part of the Gideon-Saul story in the Bible.  

    Read it.
    Badr in the narratives can be drawn from stories that not part of the Bible.But it can be a mix of both. Thereby as the Quran says something cryptic (bi badrin, 3:123), about  what appears as a "battle", Muslims narrators embellished and elaborate from this, inspiring  from the Bible and other stuff... It starts by the existence of the Quranic texts from where a topos is embellished and elaborate by a narrative which is inspired by other narrative; but the point of departure is the Quran.
    "Badr" as such has never existed.

    Quote
    Well if that is satisfactory evidence for you, it is not for me.


    It is an rationale evidence for me that the Quran was an unintelligible object for its readers. It still is.                                                                        
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8668 - December 25, 2019, 03:57 PM

    my goodness .. you guys are nitpicking around
    Quote
    I understood (correct me if I am wrong) that you agreed S17v1 is an addition to the Quran; If it is an addition, and knowing the full story elaborated in the Sira and the ahadith around it,
    Quote
    then it proves my point : a frame put over the Quran to make people believe this book is holding that story while it is not. Now, I am not saying that some parts of the Quran didn't influence the Sira ; 

     

     Altara answers with all possiblities
    Yes, index.php
    1/addition is plausible.
    2/ But not necessarily.


    why go around and answer such question in a circular answer dear Alatra?  It is same problem with Academics exploring Quran on every verses and some some times even on a word that is there in Quran..

    fist of all can't we find whether that S17v1 is present in those early manuscripts or not?? well  us read that S17v1  with OPEN HEART & OPEN MIND,  not with closed heart and closed brain..  that verse says

    Quote
    Yusuf Ali: Glory to (Allah) Who did take His servant for a Journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to the farthest Mosque, whose precincts We did bless,- in order that We might show him some of Our Signs: for He is the One Who heareth and seeth (all things).

    Shakir:   Glory be to Him Who made His servant to go on a night from the Sacred Mosque to the remote mosque of which We have blessed the precincts, so that We may show to him some of Our signs; surely He is the Hearing, the Seeing.

    Pickthall:  Glorified be He Who carried His servant by night from the Inviolable Place of Worship to the Far distant place of worship the neighbourhood whereof We have blessed, that We might show him of Our tokens! Lo! He, only He, is the Hearer, the Seer.

    Quote
    Mohsin Khan: Glorified (and Exalted) be He (Allah) [above all that (evil) they associate with Him] Who took His slave (Muhammad صلى الله عليه و سلم) for a journey by night from Al-Masjid-al-Haram (at Makkah) to Al-Masjid-al-Aqsa (in Jerusalem), the neighbourhood whereof We have blessed, in order that We might show him (Muhammad صلى الله عليه و سلم) of Our Ayat (proofs, evidence, lessons, signs, etc.). Verily, He is the All-Hearer, the All-Seer

    .

    Saheeh: Exalted is He who took His Servant by night from al-Masjid al-Haram to al-Masjid al-Aqsa, whose surroundings We have blessed, to show him of Our signs. Indeed, He is the Hearing, the Seeing.


    the rules of reading Quran are

    1). Read All translations ..

    2). NEXT DO NOT GIVE IMPORTANCE TO  STUPID TRANSLATIONS such as  Mohsin Khan Quran with ton of additions or that Saheeh translation  which deliberately adds and twists words .

    3). If possible make sure it is there in early Quran mansuscripts

    4). Do not depend on Hadith and Sira  to understand a verse., after all they have written their stuff reading Quran .. YOU CAN WRITE YOUR OWN FROM THE SAME VERSE ..

    Now dear Marc.. why would you need to assume those words "Sacred Mosque and  farthest Mosque" means .. the present Mosque  in Mecca and the one  Mosque in Jerusalem ??..

    How about explaining that verse  as a prayer place at/around  Hebron and a prayer place  at/around Jeruslaem?? .. It is just a 10 miles distance .. people can travel in one night .. Assuming there was a good preacher teaching concept of monotheism because many Christians of that time around that area considered Jesus Christ was god/son of god?  A preacher might have traveled 10 miles on a horse or a donkey or by walk...

    why take complicated root to explain a verse in Quran??  why take danielpipes.org root

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8669 - December 25, 2019, 05:48 PM

    Quote
    fist of all can't we find whether that S17v1 is present in those early manuscripts or not??


    I have no knowledge of an absence in early manuscripts .

    Quote
    Now dear Marc.. why would you need to assume those words "Sacred Mosque and  farthest Mosque" means .. the present Mosque  in Mecca and the one  Mosque in Jerusalem ??..


    That is a late interpretation... Wink The verse is sufficiently cryptic; it allows embellishments one can get a lot out of it, as attests the narrative.
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