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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8550 - December 14, 2019, 09:07 PM

    Review: Evolution of the Early Qur'ān: From Anonymous Apocalypse to Charismatic Prophet, by Daniel Beck

    https://www.academia.edu/41271068/Review_Evolution_of_the_Early_Qur%C4%81n_From_Anonymous_Apocalypse_to_Charismatic_Prophet_by_Daniel_Beck

    Some of  Daniel Beck work appears to be out of the box from usual Islamic stories on Muhammad(pbuh) and early Islam dear Alatra..  what is your opinion on his publications..  such as

    IN ITS PALESTINIAN CONTEXT– APERFECTSOLUTION TO A FORGOTTEN PROBLEM(Q 17:1 by  Daniel A. Beck

    MACCABEES NOT MECCA:  THE BIBLICAL SUBTEXTOFSŪRAT AL-FĪL by  Daniel A. Beck


    in fact you already posted his works ayear ago  at https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=27568.msg876941#msg876941

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8551 - December 15, 2019, 03:34 AM

    As you said :
    As I already said: Therefore your riddles are not linked to a general work that you will publish and on which you pass many time .

    You sometimes make riddles to which you finally give the answer (e.g. battle of Dhu-Qar) when one finds it.

    Quote
    That is why I (sometimes) make some to encourage reflection because I do not want to deploy all my stuff


    I act in the same way to see if people come to the same conclusion as I do on some stuff.

    Quote
    which would necessitate to write it in this forum and stopping wanting publish it one day. All of this is understandable in my position. Are you in the same position than me ? At all.  



    Well I came to study the origins of islam by chance and it is now one of my hobbies. I am thinking that I should  write something because it does help the thought process ; will I do it ? Maybe but I need to find the time that I don't have. Will I publish it ? no, it will only be a private thing, at least my thinking today.

    I have also to say that your (un)professional and impolite behavior at time is not really pushing me to be less cryptic
    At last something concrete:

    Quote
    What can say   the Islamic tradition about Quraysh has (for me...) no importance as it did not exist and that the islamic tradition have no knowledge from where comes the Quranic corpus.


    Unfortunately you miss the point because Surah 106 does link what the islamic tradition with what it seem to say about the Quraysch ; that makes someone wonder ........and search.
     
    Quote
    It is a plot then? They do knew the true meaning of the Quranic texts?


    When you say plot, it sounds like a conspiracy ; it is a difficult question to answer, especially because there is not one layer for the story about Muhammad. I don't think they believed that the Quran was telling the preaching of an unknown arab prophet as you seem to hint at time.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8552 - December 15, 2019, 03:40 AM


    So again questions to you  on just Question 1.

    1)  whose work is better ?  Peter Kirby's work on   "External References to Islam"  or that booklet of  Muriel Debié   publication  "  on available literature of early Islam   from  the Chronicle of Theophanes .??


    I am confused because the link you gave about Peter Kirby's is only a list of sources while Muriel Debie's work is of another nature so comparing them doesn't make sense to me.

    Quote
    2),  Did you read that Muriel Debié complete publication? (THE LINK OF YOUR POST)what does it say about Muhammad??


    Reading it.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8553 - December 15, 2019, 06:07 AM

    I am confused because the link you gave about Peter Kirby's is only a list of sources while Muriel Debie's work is of another nature ...............

    well  it is 28 pages of 43 narrations of early Islam from Non-Muslim sources ., what Peter did was copy/paste from various resources ., for example on Theophilus of Edessa (d. 785)  Peter's link says
    Quote
    Theophilus of Edessa (d. 785)
    [From the book (pp. 401-405):]

    Besides his scientific output Theophilus is also said to have . . . penned a 'fine work of history.' It has been suggested that the latter work is to be identified with the Syriac Common Source that was used by Theophanes, Dionysius of Tellmahre (partially preserved for us by Michael the Syrian and the chronicler of 1234) and Agapius of Manbij for much of their information on events in the Muslim realm. A careful comparison of the chronicles of these three authors confirms this hypothesis. . . .

    Theophilus' dependents give very different accounts of Muhammad and the rise of Islam, so it is difficult to be sure of Theophilus' own opinions on the matter. Dionysius and Agapius do, however, follow the same basic outline, which is almost certainly that of Theophilus:

    In the year 933/935 of the Greeks, 11/12 of Heraclius, 30/31/33 of Khusrau,
    Quote
    Muhammad appeared in the land of Yathrib.
    On journeys to Palestine, he had gained some religious knowledge.
    He now called the Arabs to the worship of the one God.
    Muhammad gradually won over all the Arabs.
    Muhammad's followers waged campaigns beyond Arabia, while he remained in Yathrib.
    Muhammad's teachings.
    The last section concludes with a description of paradise, which was retained by all and which makes clear their dependency upon a common source:


    Theophanes: He said that this paradise was one of carnal eating and drinking and intercourse with women, and had a river of wine, honey and milk, and that the women were not like the ones down here, but different ones, and that the intercourse was longlasting and the pleasure continuous.

    Dionysius: They say that there is carnal eating and drinking in it, and copulation with glamorous courtesans, beds of gold to lie upon with mattresses of gold and topaz, and rivers of milk and honey.

    Agapius: He mentioned that in paradise there is food and drink, marriage, rivers of wine, milk and honey, and black-eyed women untouched by man or spirit.

    Except for this extract, Theophanes almost totally ignores Theophilus for his notice on Muhammad, drawing instead, indirectly, on Jewish and Muslim sources. Agapius abridges Theophilus, as he himself acknwoeldges, and supplements him with material from the Muslim tradition. That leaves Dionysius, who seems to me to preserve best Theophilus' entry, but confirmation of this will require further research.

    and most of that he copies from   from that booklet i posted for Altara
    ......................
    So did you write publication/ anything on that ? and did you read this booklet?..........

    Theophilus of Edessa's Chronicle and the Circulation of Historical Knowledge in Late Antiquity and Early Islam (Translated Texts for Historians LUP) 1st Edition by Robert G. Hoyland

     

    anyways scan through Peter Kirby link.,, it is 28 pages but we must  realize that he wrote it some 17 years ago...

     

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8554 - December 15, 2019, 10:47 AM

    Quote
    Theophilus' dependents give very different accounts of Muhammad and the rise of Islam, so it is difficult to be sure of Theophilus' own opinions on the matter.

    Yes.
    Quote
    Dionysius and Agapius do, however, follow the same basic outline, which is almost certainly that of Theophilus:


    Plausibly yes.

    Quote
    In the year 933/935 of the Greeks, 11/12 of Heraclius, 30/31/33 of Khusrau,
    Quote
    Muhammad appeared in the land of Yathrib.


    If it is Theophilus, it would be interesting to know at which precise time he wrote this. Early 8th c.? His Muslims informants does not speak about Mecca but of Yathrib, Quranic term known outside of the Quran. Which is not "Mecca". Wink

    Quote
    On journeys to Palestine, he had gained some religious knowledge.


    Muslim topos drawn from the Quran and his Muslims informants : Muhammad the merchant. And Theophilus brain : Palestine is the place of Biblical knowledge
    Quote
    He now called the Arabs to the worship of the one God.
    Muhammad gradually won over all the Arabs.


    Muslim informants construction of the story.

    Quote
    Muhammad's followers waged campaigns beyond Arabia, while he remained in Yathrib.


    Contrary to what says the tradition that he participated in combats. Polemical stuff from Theophilus.
    Quote
    Hoyland :Muhammad's teachings.The last section concludes with a description of paradise, which was retained by all and which makes clear their dependency upon a common source:

    Quranic stuff:

    Quote
    Theophanes: He said that this paradise was one of carnal eating and drinking and intercourse with women, and had a river of wine, honey and milk, and that the women were not like the ones down here, but different ones, and that the intercourse was longlasting and the pleasure continuous.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8555 - December 15, 2019, 11:00 AM

    Quote
    Surah 106 does link what the islamic tradition with what it seem to say about the Quraysch


    That does make sense?
    Anyway, I posed you some question. As usual, you do not respond continuing your riddles and your game refusing to share what you think, whereas you have no reason to do it. You have no stake in this, but you're continuing. The fact is you do not bear that I do not write my stuff in this forum. Therefore you act like me. You're an immature guy who acts like 4,5,7,8,9,10,11 years old children.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8556 - December 15, 2019, 10:21 PM

    I gave many clues on that forum, none you paid attention to so focus on those first. I suggest you read Raymond Dequin and start from there. Learning about the jewish religion is also a good idea. But the better thing you can do is to loose your arrogant behavior and think you know it all.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8557 - December 15, 2019, 11:19 PM

    You do not post just for me here. Others can benefit from your clues.They would be surely interested. Interestingly you do not seem to realize it. It shows the esteem you have for them Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8558 - December 16, 2019, 12:05 AM

    I do, that is why I am bringing up some of my assumptions many times on that forum, starting with Raymond Dequin that I am mentionning here who has some very interesting stuff to say regarding Islam, the Mahdi, the Muhammad and the Ali. Not to say that I agree with everything but it does open some doors. I know it is total rubbish for you and you won't bother but others are free to do like you or not.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8559 - December 16, 2019, 03:00 AM

    early Islam: An Alternative Scenario of its Emergence.pdf by Markus Gross

    Philoponian Monophysitism in South Arabia at the Advent of Islam With Implications for the English Translation of 'Thalatha' in Qur'an 4.171 and 5.73.pdf by JONN BLOCK

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8560 - December 16, 2019, 08:32 AM

    Corrie Jonn Block - The Qur’an in Christian-Muslim Dialogue: Historical and Modern Interpretations

    https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=NRtGAQAAQBAJ&pg=PR8&lpg=PR8&dq=c+jonn+block&source=bl&ots=Yz1uD_-gyz&sig=ACfU3U1ogxvKq6DqsetkeuYSciN8HSiWxw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjIkb_A37nmAhVKdcAKHb6SA0UQ6AEwBHoECAoQAg#v=onepage&q=c%20jonn%20block&f=false


    Corrie Jonn Block - Expanding the Qur’anic Bridge (PhD thesis)

    https://ore.exeter.ac.uk/repository/bitstream/handle/10036/3466/BlockC.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8561 - December 16, 2019, 11:59 AM



    Quote
    It was not likely the common Monophysitism of Severus, but the overtly tritheistic Monophysitism of Philoponus that the Najranis followed./As Ab< E:ritha was the religious leader, his clear Philoponian  tritheistic theology is likely to have been the most dominant and skilfully


    He has no sources about that... That it why he says "not likely" and "likely".

    Quote
    It is this tritheistic theology that the Quran responds to in some of the suras


    Conjecture based on none source (see above).

    Quote
    According to Ibn IsA:q, the Najran Christians who visited the Prophet in 631 were fourteen men in all


    Yawn...

    And :

    Quote
    In 582 Maurice became Emperor of Byzantium. In 584 he abolished the rule of the Ghassanids, and the mighty Arab Christians divided into fifteen tribes.


    Yes.
    Quote
    Some of these joined the Persians, advancing Monophysitism under their rule.55


    Yes.

    Quote
    Maurice was a Chalcedonian, with no taste for Monophysites, and his betrayal of the Arab Monophysites would be avenged by a united Arab army in the spring of 634 against Syria and Palestine.


    A united Monophysite Arab army in 634? Wink

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8562 - December 16, 2019, 03:24 PM

    Marc,

    You have mentioned Duquin here sometimes. Can you summarize his theory so the outsiders can join in the discussion?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8563 - December 16, 2019, 04:14 PM



    Interesting part I.1 The First Christian Encounters with Islam
    The History of Christianity in Arabia with references.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8564 - December 17, 2019, 01:07 AM

    Marc,

    You have mentioned Duquin here sometimes. Can you summarize his theory so the outsiders can join in the discussion?


    Quote
    The research of Raymond Dequin (2012) concentrates on the era of the ʿAbbāsids. His findings show that they were in fact a branch of the Umayyads. The new rulers intentionally modified their genealogy in order to separate from the rest of the family; instead they created family links to the alleged Prophet. To give such a fictitious family genealogy more theological weight, the concepts of muḥammad (“the praised one”) as well as that of ʿalī (“the elevated one”) were historicized. According to Dequin, both terms were originally gnostic concepts denoting redemptory figures, originally going back to Christological notions.
    Moreover, Dequin has found evidence that it was not until after the ʿAbbāsids had taken over power that the pilgrimage to Mecca was established. It should be added that the relevant passages in the Qurʾān allegedly describing the ḥajj are far from clear  and allow completely different interpretations to that of the description of a pilgrimage.



    From http://www.almuslih.com/Library/Gross,%20M%20-%20Alternative%20Scenario.pdf


    The text highlighted is the most interesting part (according to me) in Raymond Dequin's work. He does make a link to explain the concepts of "Muhammad", "Ali" and "Mahdi" in light of gnostic aspect of the Shi'a religion. Let's not forget that Shi'as emerged in Persia and the first Muhammad coin was minted in Persia.

    Extract

    In 160 (776/777) a coin with the inscription "Al-Mahdī Muḥammad" ("the Mahdī is chosen") and "ʿAlī Muḥammad ṭayyib" was minted ("ʿAlī, Muḥammad, all right!"). This coin belongs to the al-Mahdīs era (TL 775-785), which usually bore the inscriptions "Al-Mahdī Muḥammad" and "al-Ḫalīfat al-Mahdī" ("the representative of the right-led"). In this case, the second part of the inscription is replaced by the ʿAlī text [50] .
    This ʿAlī term also has a religious meaning. The striking coexistence with "Muḥammad" will be discussed below.



    You can read some of his work here (the page is in german but you need just use Chrome page translator and you are ok. http://inarah.de/sammelbaende-und-artikel/inarah-band-6/dequin-fruehe-%CA%BFali-verehrung-und-die-schoepfung-des-abbasidischen-weltbilds/
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8565 - December 17, 2019, 01:21 AM

    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1206698801848827906
    Quote
    I figured it would be nice to do a thread on the presentation I gave at IQSA, so here goes!

    This talk focuses on the reading traditions as present in manuscripts, a unexplored topic that I hope to devote my time to in the coming years (if funding bodies will it...).

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8566 - December 17, 2019, 06:06 AM


    dear Marc_S  Thanks for that clink from  inarah., but after reading that i can say that any history student and historian who reads that Raymond Dequin will come to Quick conclusion he is NOT exploring historian but writing history from existing stories  .

    Quote
    The research of Raymond Dequin (2012) concentrates on the era of the ʿAbbāsids. His findings show that they were in fact a branch of the Umayyads. The new rulers intentionally modified their genealogy in order to separate from the rest of the family; instead they created family links to the alleged Prophet. To give such a fictitious family genealogy more theological weight, the concepts of muḥammad (“the praised one”) as well as that of ʿalī (“the elevated one”) were historicized. According to Dequin, both terms were originally gnostic concepts denoting redemptory figures, originally going back to Christological notions.

    Moreover, Dequin has found evidence that it was not until after the ʿAbbāsids had taken over power that the pilgrimage to Mecca was established. It should be added that the relevant passages in the Qurʾān allegedly describing the ḥajj are far from clear  and allow completely different interpretations to that of the description of a pilgrimage.

    I didn't get those highlighted words.. what does both terms mean?? you mean Umayyad dynasty and Abbasid dynasty??

    The other word hard to understand is   fictitious family genealogy .,   If early Islamic genealogy is factious  then  this statement
    Quote
    The research of Raymond Dequin (2012)  findings show that they were in fact a branch of the Umayyad

    also appears to be fictitious.,   Abdu'llāh ibn Muhammad al-Saffāḥ was the first  Abbasid Caliphate,   

    Assuming early Islamic genealogy is fictitious.,  without having "Muhammad(PBUH)" what relationship did Dequin  create between  first  Abbasid Caliph and first Umayyad Caliph Muawiya I ibn Abu Sufyan??

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8567 - December 17, 2019, 10:50 AM

    Meccan trade in French.

    https://www.academia.edu/37858356/Les_caravanes_de_La_Mecque_et_lav%C3%A8nement_de_lIslam_Patricia_Crone
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8568 - December 17, 2019, 10:58 AM

    Quote
    To give such a fictitious family genealogy more theological weight, the concepts of muḥammad (“the praised one”) as well as that of ʿalī (“the elevated one”) were historicized.


    Nope.muḥammad was historizized before that. "Ali" is an historical figure; he was amir of al Hira.

    Quote
    According to Dequin, both terms were originally gnostic concepts denoting redemptory figures, originally going back to Christological notions.


    The only redeemer figure of the Gnose is Jesus.But all this keeps us away from the authors of the Quranic corpus...

    Quote
    Dequin has found evidence that it was not until after the ʿAbbāsids had taken over power that the pilgrimage to Mecca was established.


    Dubious...

    Quote
    It should be added that the relevant passages in the Qurʾān allegedly describing the ḥajj are far from clear  and allow completely different interpretations to that of the description of a pilgrimage.


    Of course especially a pilgrimage in Mecca...

    Quote
    The text highlighted is the most interesting part (according to me) in Raymond Dequin's work. He does make a link to explain the concepts of "Muhammad", "Ali" and "Mahdi" in light of gnostic aspect of the Shi'a religion.


    The Quranic author(s) are gnostics? The Quranic corpus are gnostics texts? Nope. That the Iraqis invent, fabricate, with all the stuff they have (religious traditions present in Iraq) about Ali or Muhammad is one thing. That the Quranic corpus are gnostics texts written by gnostics is another.

    Quote
    Let's not forget that Shi'as emerged in Persia and the first Muhammad coin was minted in Persia.


    The Quran is originally emergent Iraqi.

    Quote
    In 160 (776/777) a coin with the inscription "Al-Mahdī Muḥammad" ("the Mahdī is chosen") and "ʿAlī Muḥammad ṭayyib" was minted ("ʿAlī, Muḥammad, all right!").


    Very late stuff due to fabrications already mentioned.
    Quote
    This coin belongs to the al-Mahdīs era (TL 775-785), which usually bore the inscriptions "Al-Mahdī Muḥammad" and "al-Ḫalīfat al-Mahdī" ("the representative of the right-led"). In this case, the second part of the inscription is replaced by the ʿAlī text [50] .

    Very late stuff due to fabrications already mentioned.
    Quote
    This ʿAlī term also has a religious meaning. The striking coexistence with "Muḥammad" will be discussed below.


    7th c. amir of al Hira, nothing else. What the Iraqis fabricate about those figures has no interest regarding the origin of the Quranic corpus... Dequin should write a monography  about the origin of the Shia which have nothing to see with  the origin of the Quranic corpus...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8569 - December 17, 2019, 11:55 AM

     “ALL WE KNOW IS WHAT WE HAVE BEEN TOLD”: REFLECTIONS ON EMIGRATION AND LAND AS DIVINE HERITAGE IN THE QUR’ĀN

    Quote
    “All we know is what we have been told”—writes John Wansbrough
    in one the first pages of Res Ipsa Loquitur to warn the students
    of early Islamic history from becoming the victims of a literary
    and linguistic conspiracy. His concerns for the constraints of
    language and the literary forms of historical writing seems to be
    projected into his own intense and concentrated style which necessitates
    from his readers a high threshold of literary and linguistic
    awareness. Still, through the penetrating and challenging nature of
    his arguments and the complexity of his own style, John Wansbrough has secured for himself, together with the necessity for his work to be explained and clarified, a well deserved posterity.


    https://www.academia.edu/1579958/_All_We_Know_is_What_We_Have_Been_Told_Reflections_on_Emigration_and_Land_as_Divine_Heritage_in_the_Qur%C4%81n_in_Carlos_A._Segovia_and_Basil_Louri%C3%A9_ed.s_The_Coming_of_the_Comforter_When_Where_and_to_Whom_Gorgias_Press_2012_pp._303-340
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8570 - December 17, 2019, 12:07 PM

    dear Marc_S  Thanks for that clink from  inarah., but after reading that i can say that any history student and historian who reads that Raymond Dequin will come to Quick conclusion he is NOT exploring historian but writing history from existing stories  .


    Could you be more specific here with examples ? I think I understand what you are saying but the issue you raise is not the proper one from my point of view.


    Quote
    The other word hard to understand is   fictitious family genealogy .,   If early Islamic genealogy is factious  then  this statement also appears to be fictitious.,   Abdu'llāh ibn Muhammad al-Saffāḥ was the first  Abbasid Caliphate,   


    Not sure what you don't understand and I don't see the connection with the 1st Abbassid Caliph. Raymod Dequin is only saying that, according to him, Abbassids and Umayyads belonged to the same family but the Abbassids tweaked their ancestors' line so that they are not anymore family related with Umayyads.

    Quote
    Assuming early Islamic genealogy is fictitious.,  without having "Muhammad(PBUH)" what relationship did Dequin  create between  first  Abbasid Caliph and first Umayyad Caliph Muawiya I ibn Abu Sufyan??


    He seems to imply they were family related.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8571 - December 17, 2019, 12:19 PM

    "Ali" is an historical figure; he was amir of al Hira.


    Your comment is odd. Was this amir al Hira name Ali ? What Dequin is saying is that the "Ali" concept was historized, and whether it was put on an historical person or an ahistorical one is not relevant here.

    Quote
    The only redeemer figure of the Gnose is Jesus.But all this keeps us away from the authors of the Quranic corpus...
     


    Beliefs, doctrina in islam don't originate for all of them from the Quran and I don't think these authors are adressed here.


    Quote
    Dubious...


    Elaborate.

    Quote
    The Quranic author(s) are gnostics? The Quranic corpus are gnostics texts? Nope. That the Iraqis invent, fabricate, with all the stuff they have (religious traditions present in Iraq) about Ali or Muhammad is one thing. That the Quranic corpus are gnostics texts written by gnostics is another.


    No one is saying this ; you are missing the point here.



    Quote
    Very late stuff due to fabrications already mentioned.Very late stuff due to fabrications already mentioned.
    7th c. amir of al Hira, nothing else. What the Iraqis fabricate about those figures has no interest regarding the origin of the Quranic corpus... Dequin should write a monography  about the origin of the Shia which have nothing to see with  the origin of the Quranic corpus...


    I think Dequin is writing about islam. Islam is not only the Quran ; it is one piece so should we exclude the other pieces then ?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8572 - December 17, 2019, 01:45 PM


    I think Dequin is writing about islam. Islam is not only the Quran ; it is one piece so should we exclude the other pieces then ?

    Nope.Dequin  is writing about published stories of early Islam from other authors/  other stories.,   

    dear Marc_S.,  I  would agree with you if Dequin has  written anywhere of his ONLY PUBLICATION/BOOK/PAPER  on that history of early Islam  that  " Islam is not only the Quran  but Quran is just one piece"   ..

    I say to those people who says .................. " Islam is not only the Quran  but Quran is just one piece".........................

    WITHOUT QUARN.. THERE IS NO ISLAM  ...  you can  remove  all the stuff from Islam and early Islamic stories but keep Quran  then over 70% of Muslims will be quite happy and content and that also goes to me .. WHO WAS NEVER A MUSLIM but being a religious zebra by birth who enjoyed many cultural Islamic festivals and rituals as a kid all the way to my adolescence.... 

    it is one piece

    What?  one piece??   REMOVE THAT PIECE AND TRY ISLAM.... let me see what kind of Islam you get out of removing Quran from Islam

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8573 - December 17, 2019, 02:37 PM

    Quote
    Was this amir al Hira name Ali ?


    Yes. George de Reshaina,(d.680) Vie syrienne de Maximus, XXIII, 312-313 in Hoyland, Seeing...p.140-141.
    Quote
    When Maximus saw that Rome had accepted the foul mire of his blasphemies, he also went down to Constantinople at the time when Mu'awiya made peace with the emperor Constans, having started a war with Abu Turab, the emir of al Hira  at Siffin and defeated him.


    Quote
    Hoyland  :Abu Turab is the nickname of 'Ali ibn Abi Talib, and its appearance here suggests derivation ultimately from an Arab informant.


    It could be the inverse : Ali could be the nickname of Abu Turab... It has no importance. The importance is that it is an historical figure, contrary to Muhammad and that he opposes the Arabs holding Syria and Egypt to rule all the Arabs because he considered  that he was legitimate to do it.
    Quote
    What Dequin is saying is that the "Ali" concept was historized


    the "Ali" concept was fabricated it is the word. A part this, He is an historical figure.

    Quote
    Beliefs, doctrina in islam don't originate for all of them from the Quran and I don't think these authors are adressed here.


    Beliefs, doctrina in islam are not my topic. My topic is the Quran. What the "muslims" have elaborated from it with the help of other religious traditions is a specific topic in itself which have nothing to see with the autho(rs) of the Quran and this one does not interest me. As I said, Dequin should write a monography about the origin of the Shia without binding it with the origin of the Quran which is another topic.

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    Elaborate


    Well... There are testimonies that the 8th c.Umayyads have started to organize a pilgrimage to Mecca. It is findable in academia.

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    No one is saying this ; you are missing the point here.


    My topic is the authors of the Quran, not what are the external influences which have shaped what the "Muslims" fabricated from it in Iraq.

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    I think Dequin is writing about islam.


    Yes. Islam as such is not my topic.

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    Islam is not only the Quran


    See above.
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    ; it is one piece so should we exclude the other pieces then ?


    I do it. Simply because (for me...)  there is no link between the people who own quranic texts at the end of the 7th c. and from which they will fabricate "Islam" and those who wrote them down.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8574 - December 17, 2019, 02:45 PM

    Yes.............. George de Reshaina,(d.680) Vie syrienne de Maximus, XXIII, 312-313 in Hoyland, Seeing...p.140-141.


     I would appreciate complete link  reference of those three ..

    with bets regards
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8575 - December 17, 2019, 02:59 PM

    http://almuslih.org/Library/Hoyland,%20R%20-%20Seeing%20Islam.pdf

    p.139-141.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8576 - December 17, 2019, 03:29 PM


    my goodness  ....  I wonder about historian of early Islam., it appears that they  are NOT really inquiring   the subject that they are /were supposed to inquire.,



    Quote
    Quote
    .............................Abu Turab is the nickname of 'All ibn AbT Talib, and its appearance  here suggests derivation ultimately from an Arab informant.   In most  Muslim acounts the battle of Siffin (657) led only to an agreement between Mu'awiya and 'All to seek arbitration on their dispute; 'All's  defeat came later. The casual mention here that Siffin was where  Mu'awiya defeated Abu Turab may be a telescoping of events, but  there are hints on the Christian and Muslim side that it is right. 89 Finally, there is the observation that 'Ali was emir of Hira. In the classical  Muslim accounts he is the fourth legitimate ruler of the Arabs, though  early Syrian sources, Christian and Muslim, portray him as a rebel ..................

    85 George of Resh'aina, Syriac Life of Maximus XXIII, 312-13.
    86 Ibid. XVII-XVIII, 310.
    87 Ibid. XXV, 313.


    88 For the possible meaning of the name see Kohlberg, "Abu Turab."
    89 Crone, Slaves on Horses, 203 n. 30. Theophanes, 347, says that Mu'awiya
    "obtained victory without any toil."


    I winder whether you caught hold of that reference 85 George of Resh'aina, Syriac Life of Maximus ??

    Quote
    George of Resh'aina was a 7th-century Syriac historian. He was opposed to Maximus the Confessor, the defender of orthodoxy against monotheletism and wrote an unfriendly biography of him. This book also provides a glimpse into the events of his time.

    After Maximus went up to Rome, Arabs seized control of the islands of the sea and took over Cyprus and Arwad, ravaging them and taking captives. They gained control over Africa and subdued almost all the islands of the sea; for, following the wicked Maximus, the wrath of God punished every place which had accepted his error


    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8577 - December 17, 2019, 03:37 PM

    I see no perceptible agenda from Georges in this:
    Quote
    at the time when Mu'awiya made peace with the emperor Constans, having started a war with Abu Turab, the emir of al Hira  at Siffin and defeated him.


    It is the non islamic version of the events: for me the true one. No Mecca/Kaba/ Muhammad/Abu Bakr/Badr/ son-in-law of the Prophet/ Quran/Gabriel, etc. All of this will come later.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8578 - December 17, 2019, 04:01 PM

    https://www.dailysabah.com/portrait/2017/10/28/ali-ibn-abu-talib-gate-to-wisdom

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    Ali ibn Abu Talib: Gate to wisdom

    The fourth of the "Rashidun" (Great) Caliphs, Ali ibn Abu Talib has long been considered as the starting point of many esoteric movements in Islam, as well as the formation of Shiite sects. Both Sunni and Shiite Muslims have adored Ali as a great warrior, man of wisdom, poet and imam for centuries. Ali has been given many nicknames and titles such as "Asadullah" (Lion of God), "Haidar al-Karrar" (Lion fighting all sides), "Amir al-Muminun" (Leader of the Believers), "Abu Turab" (Father of the Dust, which was given to Ali by Prophet Muhammad on a certain occasion), "Murtaza" (The Chosen One), "Shah al-Mardan" (Shah of the Brave) and "Abu Hassan" (Father of Hassan, named for his first son Hassan). Though his name has triggered many debates, controversies and Shiism in Islam, no Muslims have ever said or done anything to go against Ali's memory, with the exception of the Umayyad Dynasty and its supporters.

    Born to be a Muslim
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    According to Ali Shariati, a late Iranian Marxist and Islamist, Ali ibn Abu Talib was the first young man originally brought up as a Muslim by Prophet Muhammad. Indeed, he was very young when he converted to Islam. According to Shariati, the change was not technically a "conversion" because he was a child and had no Pagan background. According to Islamic belief: "Every child is born as a Muslim. It is his parents who make him a Christian, a Jew or a Pagan." This very sentence was addressed by Prophet Muhammad himself (Sahih al-Muslim, 33/6426).

    Ali was born in 601 in Mecca as the son of the Custodian of the Kaba, Abu Talib, uncle of the Prophet Muhammad. Though Abu Talib had a higher rank among Quraysh tribes as the sheikh of the Banu Hashim tribe and the custodian of the Kaba, he was not rich enough to offer a comfortable living for his entire family. So, Muhammad took Ali in order to lower his uncle's economical burdens. Ali stayed with Prophet Muhammad until the Hegira (the great migration of the Muslims from Mecca to Medina). In other words, Prophet Muhammad raised Ali from when he was 5 years old.

    Traditionally, Ali is accepted as the first young man to ever have converted to Islam. Although little is known about his life before the Hegira, it is known that Muhammad made Ali stay in Mecca in order to divert the Pagans until Prophet Muhammad arrived safely in Medina. Ali spent a night in Muhammad's bed, in order to make the Pagans believe that Prophet Muhammad was still in his home.

    On the other day, Ali gave the things to be given to various people in the name of Muhammad; and he took Fatima, the daughter of Prophet Muhammad, and the prophet's mother Fatima and left for Medina. Ali and his company met Prophet Muhammad and Abu Bakr in Quba.

    In Medina

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    In the fifth month after Hegira, Prophet Muhammad made the Meccan Muslims (Muhajirun, the emigrants) choose a brother from among the Medina Muslims (Ansar, the hosts), each for each, and he chose Ali as his brother. He also gave his daughter to Ali as a wife in the second year of Hegira. Ali and Fatima had five children - namely Hassan, Hussein, Muhseen (who was a still-born child), Zainab and Umm Kulthum. Despite the polygamist tradition of the Arabs, Ali would not marry another woman until Fatima's death.

    ‘Lion of God'

    Ali fought for Islam in nearly every battle during Muhammad's life. He carried the flag of Muhammad in battles such as Badr, Uhud, Hunayn, Khandaq and others. He protected the prophet with his sword until the end of the battles of Hunayn and Uhud, despite being wounded.

    Ali served as commander to the Muslim army on several occasions. He also stayed in Medina as the representative of the prophet from time to time. He showed great bravery and sacrifice in the Battle of Khaybar , where the Muslims defeated the Jew of the Khaybar Castle. Ali used a heavy iron gate as a shield during that battle, in order to protect Prophet Muhammad from the flying arrows of the enemy.

    Ali served Muhammad in many ways, including scripting his letters and the revelations of the Holy Quran. He was the one who scripted the Hudaibiyya Treaty signed with the Pagans of Mecca. Muhammad ordered Ali to destroy the idols of the pagan tribes in Kaba after the conquest of Mecca by the Muslim army.

    Fourth Caliph

    After the prophet's death, Abu Bakr was elected as the first caliph. Ali did not show obeisance to Abu Bakr until his wife Fatima died, six months after the passing of his father, Muhammad. This is one of the controversial subjects of Islamic history, especially for sectarian Shiite groups, even though respected historians have stated that Ali never showed any willingness to become the caliph instead of Abu Bakr.

    Indeed, Fatima was angry with Abu Bakr because of the heritage of his father, Prophet Muhammad. Fatima asked Abu Bakr for the land called Fadaq as the heritage of his father. However, Abu Bakr refused her request, saying that prophets didn't have heritages. Abu Bakr applied this rule to the wives of the prophet as well, even though Aisha, his daughter, was one of them.

    After Fatima's death, Ali never quarreled with the caliphs. He obeyed Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman successively. Despite his efforts to protect Uthman from being martyred, the rebels ultimately killed the caliph.

    After Uthman's death, the Muslim land fell into anarchy ("The Fitnah"). Ali was elected as the fourth caliph by prominent Muslims in the Mosque of the Prophet in Medina. However, Muawiya, the Damascus governor, did not accept obeying the new caliph, and declared his own caliphate. After a while, Aisha, Prophet Muhammad's wife, Talha and Zubayr, two of the six candidates before Uthman's caliphate, rebelled against Ali.

    Therefore, there were three campaigns for the caliphate. As Ali defeated Talha and Zubayr, he also sent Aisha to Medina, ending her authority against him as the caliph. However, Muawiyah took advantage of the anarchy as he was located in Damascus, too far away to be defeated.

    Ali fought against Muawiyah and defeated his army. Although the latter left the battlefield, he found help and returned. Ali was good at fighting, while Muawiyah was a better politician. So, the two confronted each other on the table, too. Muawiyah played tricks in order to affect the Muslim majority, which worked well.

    The two rivals assigned two arbitrators, one for each, in order to end the controversy among Muslims. Muawiyah's arbitrator, Amr ibn al-As, deceived Ali's arbitrator, declaring Muawiyah as the new caliph in a declaration which was never accepted by Ali or his supporters. Also, a third group rebelled against both rivals, saying that Muawiyah should be taken down since he had rebelled against the true caliph, but Ali should also be killed since he sat down with the rebels against the revelation of God.

    Ali defeated the third group, known as Khawarij (The Outsiders). However, Muawiyah again took advantage of the anarchy among Muslims and strengthened his rule in Damascus and environs.Therefore, Muslims had two caliphs at the same time, one in Damascus and one in Kufa.

    Ali tried to prepare a strong army in Kufa in order to defeat Muawiyah in Damascus. However, the Iraqi Muslims, the main supporters of Ali, were not so enthusiastic in continuing the fight, as the people were exhausted from the endless battles between Muslim armies.

    An angry Kharijite - namely Abd al-Rahman ibn Muljam - stabbed Ali with a sword in a mosque while he was praying. He died two days later on Jan. 29, 661, at the age of 60.


    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8579 - December 17, 2019, 04:56 PM


    What?  one piece??   REMOVE THAT PIECE AND TRY ISLAM.... let me see what kind of Islam you get out of removing Quran from Islam


    I don't really see the point of your comments. It is a fact that Quran is a piece of islam ; even quranists who claim ahadith are all wrong and only the Quran is valid must use them to know about Muhammad ; if you want to know how many times a day, you need to pray, it is not in the Quran,etc,etc.....
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