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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8430 - November 26, 2019, 10:59 AM

    Marijn van Putten - Arabe 334a. A Vocalized Kufic Quran in a Non-canonical Hijazi Reading

    https://www.academia.edu/41060428/Arabe_334a._A_Vocalized_Kufic_Quran_in_a_Non-canonical_Hijazi_Reading


    Totally polluted by "Hijazi" "Medinan", etc. One have no clues at all about the temporal and place location of this stuff.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8431 - November 26, 2019, 11:29 AM

    Morteza Karimi-Nia - A New Document in the Early History of the Qurʾān: Codex Mashhad, an ʿUthmānic Text of the Qurʾān in Ibn Masʿūd’s Arrangement of Sūras

    https://www.academia.edu/41027599/A_New_Document_in_the_Early_History_of_the_Qurʾān_Codex_Mashhad_an_ʿUthmānic_Text_of_the_Qurʾān_in_Ibn_Masʿūd_s_Arrangement_of_Sūras


    Quote
    Codex Mashhad has been transcribed based on the official. ʿUthmānic version but according to Ibn Masʿūd’s arrangement of the sūras .

    Quote
    Conclusion
    Based on the above evidence, I arrive at the conclusion that Codex Mashhad
    is an early version combining the official text of the Qurʾān with Ibn Masʿūd’s
    arrangement of the sūras from the first/seventh century, later subjected to a
    broad cut-and-paste operation to conform to the prevailing ʿUthmānic arrangement
    .
    Although it remains impossible to accurately determine when and how
    the Codex was produced, based on intertextual evidence, the Codex should
    be considered one of the oldest, even one of the first-century compilations
    probably in Medina/Ḥijāz, since the extent of utilization of incomplete orthography
    (scriptio defectiva) as well as the amount of spelling peculiarities, variant
    readings, and copyist’s errors are far more impressive and divergent than what
    is found in the known ḥijāzī and Kufic manuscripts of the second/eighth to
    fourth/tenth centuries. More accurate answers as to the origin of this Codex
    will hopefully be available upon radiocarbon dating of its two manuscript volumes
    after the agreement of the authorities from the Āstān-i Quds Library in Mashhad.


    The link between the ʿUthmānic rasm and the order/arrangement  of sura is artificial. "ʿUthmānic codex" does not mean its order/arrangement  of the sura, only the rasm.The two are decoupled.
    All of this confirms what I think. No Mecca/Zem zem/Kaba/Muhammad. It deals with texts and nothing else which  must conform to an invented model, the ʿUthmānic one, built from parts (sura) which were not at the origin gathered and whose the  genuine/first order/arrangement done by the authors was not known by those who have the corpus and who make it publicly emerged.
    The Arabs who has done this public emergence have nothing to see with the authors, they did not know them, were not with them in a  great city of commerce in the Western peninsula. All of this is fantasy elaborated after the events and retro projected to depict the past to explain the existence of the Quranic corpus (Mecca/Zem zem/Kaba/Muhammad/ Ali with his daughter, Muawiya and Abu Sufian the "enemy" of the Prophet/ etc) and legitimate the rulers.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8432 - November 27, 2019, 02:35 PM

    Audio in French: Oct. 2019 Dye, Amir-Moezzi and Débié : Le Coran des historiens. Le texte du Livre de l'islam décrypté et déchiffré à l'usage de tous/ The Koran of historians. The text of the Book of Islam decoded and deciphered for the use of all
    http://www.rdv-histoire.com/Edition-2019-l-Italie/le-coran-des-historiens-le-texte-du-livre-de-l-islam-decrypte-et-dechiffre-l-usage-de-tous
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8433 - November 27, 2019, 02:57 PM

    About Arabs in the 6th C:


    I've  stumbled on this 1882 translation of Joshua the stylete's Syriac text.  Arabs (Tayyayé probably? if anyone reads Syriac, he can check, Syriac text in the back) seem to have played a very well documented role in the Roman-Persian wars. Seems improbable that they did not have a developed administration. Maybe they are just logical candidates to follow up the receding Byzantine administration that didnt really seem to have much interest or vitality  in retaining its empire in the Syrian provinces.

    The Qadash are mentioned...

    https://archive.org/details/chronicleofjoshu00josh/page/n17
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8434 - November 27, 2019, 04:27 PM

    Quote
    Arabs (Tayyayé probably? if anyone reads Syriac, he can check, Syriac text in the back) seem to have played a very well documented role in the Roman-Persian wars.


    Of course.

    Quote
    Seems improbable that they did not have a developed administration.


    Stop to think with your 21th c.categories. Arabs were mercenaries and tax collectors serving the Persians in the East and Romans in the West. They did not need an "administration" to do that.
    Quote
    The Qadash are mentioned...


    What page?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8435 - November 27, 2019, 07:23 PM

    Qadash:

    p14, chapter XXII

    Administration:

    You say Arabs were tax collectors. You need an administration for that.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8436 - November 27, 2019, 09:46 PM

    Quote
    p14, chapter XXII


    Ok thanks.
    Quote
    You need an administration for that.

     The administration is the local one which taxes. Roman and Persian ; and the Arabs are ruled and get their instructions by them.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8437 - November 28, 2019, 06:51 AM

    Altara,

    Tax collectors:

    But is clear the Arabs had all the opportunity to learn and develop a script.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8438 - November 28, 2019, 07:55 AM

    About Arabs in the 6th C:


    I've  stumbled on this 1882 translation of Joshua the stylete's Syriac text.  Arabs (Tayyayé probably? if anyone reads Syriac, he can check, Syriac text in the back) seem to have played a very well documented role in the Roman-Persian wars..........................

    The Qadash are mentioned...

    The chronicle of Joshua the Stylite : composed in Syriac A.D. 507 by Joshua, the Stylite; Wright, W

    Altara,

    Tax collectors:

    But is clear the Arabs had all the opportunity to learn and develop a script.

    that is great link and a very good comment dear mundi.,  and I propose that guy/s who wrote/put together the Quran must have been a zorse w.r.t his culture,..

    well on those words of mundi........." Arabs had all the opportunity to learn and develop a script"..........  lrt me add this book link .

    THE RISE OF HISTORICAL WRITING AMONG THE ARABS

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8439 - November 28, 2019, 11:22 AM

    Altara,

    Yes

    Quote
    Tax collectors:

    But is clear the Arabs had all the opportunity to learn and develop a script.


    1/Did I say the contrary?
    2/But not from a supposed administration in the way you see it.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8440 - November 28, 2019, 11:59 AM

    Administration:

    If they were tax collectors the step from giving these taxes to another authority to keeping them to their own purpose is quite small.

    From Joshua the Stylite it is clear how incorporated the different tribes (a.o. the Tayyaye)  were in the Persian Empire. Pourshariati also emphasizes the decentralized nature of the Sassanian empire...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8441 - November 28, 2019, 01:16 PM

    Quote
    If they were tax collectors the step from giving these taxes to another authority to keeping them to their own purpose is quite small.


    Mundi, all undergraduate in History learn this stuff. There is no "keeping them to their own purpose"  except at the margin. We have testimonies of how are treated those who disobey. They finish badly.
    Arabs were tax collectors especially in the south of Ctesiphon regarding  the Arab tribes of the south fringe under the supervision of Al Hira (!!!!!) kings.
    I think (to be check...) that in the north of Ctesiphon (Al Anbar, and Mesopotamia) Arabs weren't in charge of that in Persian and Roman side there.
    But in the West side, it seems that Arabs were the sole collectors for the Romans. In the 630's they were not payed out anymore by Constantinople and therefore they started to collect for themselves (Cf. Sophronios).
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8442 - November 28, 2019, 01:39 PM

    Altara,

    So you say Arabs  were sole tax collectors in the West. Which areas in the West you mean? The border lands? Or also eg in the Negev, Sinai,Jerusalem?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8443 - November 28, 2019, 06:59 PM

    From Antioch to the Negev.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8444 - November 28, 2019, 08:29 PM

    Quote
    From Antioch to the Negev.


    Source? I think this is very important.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8445 - November 29, 2019, 11:05 AM

    Academia is your friend. Wink Check de Prémare  and Nevo they maybe state it. Or It is possible that I confuse it with the east. Anyway the result is the same; they collect for themselves in the 630's.
    The more important in the West in my opinion is not really this role. It is the fact that they were not payed out any more by the Romans after the reconquest as auxiliaries for the limes therefore they start to feed themselves in collecting what they need in the population.(Cf. Sophronios).
    You're going to help me to confirm (or not) this information.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8446 - November 29, 2019, 11:30 AM

    Quote

    what? what Academia?  what happened to CEMB Altara loaded library ?  website is down?

    one statement from you is not going to kill your time dear Altara ..

    So how about other side .. The Persian side ? No  Arab  tax collectors from that side??

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8447 - November 29, 2019, 03:33 PM

    From the other side, I have wrote it in my work without reference, it's a mistake. I need to get it. But if I have wrote it is because I had the reference, I am not Gallez Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8448 - November 29, 2019, 03:57 PM

    Quote
    The emperors granted to the Lakhmids estates as fiefs in the Sawad of Iraq, with the right to collect taxation and use it to defray their expenses as frontier wardens. Cambridge history of Iran, p.599.


    It is not for the Persians, but for themselves to keep the south frontier. Wink Yet I had read somewhere... Well...
    One understands from where  the story of the "ridda" war were coming:
    Quote
    The Lakhmids also derived part of their revenues from taxes  levied on these friendly tribes, and the Arabic sources note a punitive raid undertaken by al-Nu'man III against the Banu Tamim, who had refused to pay taxes. p.601.

     



  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8449 - November 29, 2019, 04:23 PM

    The Ghassānids as Tax Collectors:

    Quote
    BYZANTIUM AND THE ARABS IN THE SIXTH CENTURY IRFAN SHAHÎD Volume II Part 2: Economic, Social, and Cultural History, p.41-43.


    I knew it that I was not Gallez  Wink
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8450 - November 29, 2019, 05:11 PM

    The Ghassānids as Tax Collectors:

    Quote
    BYZANTIUM AND THE ARABS IN THE SIXTH CENTURY IRFAN SHAHÎD Volume II Part 2: Economic, Social, and Cultural History, p.41-43.


    I knew it that I was not Gallez  Wink
     


    Download here: https://www.doaks.org/research/publications/books/byzantium-and-the-arabs-in-the-sixth-century-volume-2-part-2
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8451 - November 29, 2019, 08:08 PM

    The family of John of Damascus was serving as tax collector for the Romans as well. One does not know if they were part of the Ghassānids.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8452 - November 30, 2019, 09:10 AM

    Quote
    One does not know if they were part of the Ghassānids.


    How strong would tribal segregation have been amongst Christians? John of Damascus was Orthodox, wouldn't that have primarily have defined his self identity?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8453 - November 30, 2019, 09:11 AM

    Dr. Andrew Bannister has done research on the Quran using a computerized analysis. His conclusion is that the Quran is partially orally composed ( not only orally passed on). He writes:

    "
    So what about the Qur’an itself? This paper explores how computerized analysis of the Qur’an, made possible by deploying a morphologically tagged database of qur’anic Arabic, enables us to conduct a systematic formulaic analysis of the qur’anic text for the first time. Computerized analysis demonstrates the Qur’an’s formulaic density to lie between 23% and 53% (depending on the length of formulaic phrase that we search for). We also highlight some further fascinating features that computerized formulaic analysis can reveal, such as the fact that those surahs traditionally considered ‘Medinan’ are considerably more formulaic than those considered ‘Meccan’. We will also demonstrate how computerized analysis can detect not just repetitions, but entire ‘formulaic systems’ throughout the Qur’an, an even greater indicator of oral generation."
    Have you discussed Bannister`s work earlier? Do you know how his work is considered in academic circles?https://www.academia.edu/9490706/Retelling_the_Tale_A_Computerised_Oral-Formulaic_Analysis_of_the_Qur_an
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8454 - November 30, 2019, 09:15 AM

    Here Bannister is discussing with a good friend to all here on CEMB , Dr. Jay, on a just-released video. (part 3 of 5 videos):

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSQhU1DOA84&t=265s
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8455 - November 30, 2019, 10:16 AM

    ^a working link for the Andrew Bannister article: https://www.academia.edu/9490706/Retelling_the_Tale_A_Computerised_Oral-Formulaic_Analysis_of_the_Qur_an
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8456 - November 30, 2019, 11:48 AM

    Quote
    Have you discussed Bannister`s work earlier? Do you know how his work is considered in academic circles?


    Bannister is as much a historian as I am astronaut: "I hold a PhD in Islamic studies," says he. All is said.
    There is nothing oral in the Quran apart to say that when you write something it comes from your brain and then to your hand then to the pen which write down. Therefore yes, all what is written is oral.

    Bannister does not take into account that it is the text itself which states ambiguously  that it is "oral". It is mandatory for the authors to induce it  because if not, it would have been accused of plagiarism. Moreover as it is not sufficient to solely induce it, the authors undermine this issue of plagiarism in the text itself (16:103 ; 25:4-5 ; 26:195-199 ; 41:44 ; 44:13-14) (haha, hahaha, hahahaha ad infinitum...).
    Never believe the authors of the Quran, guys, never Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8457 - November 30, 2019, 12:14 PM

    Dr. Andrew Bannister has done research on the Quran using a computerized analysis. ......................


    Have you discussed Bannister`s work earlier?..............

      and Altara says
    Bannister is as much a historian as I am astronaut. ...........

     Cheesy Cheesy and on top of that Altara singing songs

    Ohyee believer  nothing oral in the Quran
    you write something when it comes from your brain
     and then to your hand
    and then to your pen
    that writes it down on paper
    So yes, yes all  that is written
    by any one and everyone   is oral.

    well we can make better  sonnet out of Altara words but dear Altara how about a guy who can not speak but can write with pen?

    but coming back to  zeca  link of Andrew Bannister  publication
    it says"Retelling the Tale: A Computerised Oral-Formulaic Analysis of the Qur’an" ., I must disagree with Altara   I say Altara  is a better Astronaut than that  guy  Bannister being an Historian of Islam..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8458 - November 30, 2019, 12:26 PM

    He speaks in his brain first.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8459 - November 30, 2019, 12:58 PM

    https://mobile.twitter.com/GabrielSaidR/status/1200392121385193473
    Quote
    In early Islam monks and Muslim ascetics/zuhhad traded tips! "Islam and Christian Muslim Relations" has published B. Bowman's "Refuge in the Bosoms of the Mountains" - a study of Ibn Abi al-Dunya's collection of anecdotes involving monks offering ascetic wisdom to Muslim friends.

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