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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8370 - November 22, 2019, 09:00 PM

    A first criticism on "Le coran des historiens""

    Apparently too much specialism, not enough cooperation, and no synthesis of the work done in the first volume when applying it to the exegesis in the following volumes...

    Cannot judge (haven't read the work)...

    https://twitter.com/Hey_Howk/status/1197609869039325186/photo/1


    The purpose was not to apply individuals articles into the exegesis nor to make a synthesis.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8371 - November 23, 2019, 01:20 AM

    5' 54 1st video : "Massive doctrinal differences among Christians". I stopped there. All Christians of the institutionalised group confessed the same thing : Jesus is the second Person of the Trinity, he is the son of God and he is God.
    The differences were about how the divine and human part of Jesus were organised. Both were not questioned. If they were by some, these people would have been considered as not Christians.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8372 - November 23, 2019, 08:54 AM

    https://www.lefigaro.fr/histoire/la-verite-sur-le-coran-20191115

    Quote
    Published by Editions du Cerf, The Quran of Historians is first the fruit of a rigorous and exemplary scientific work, but also a peaceful weapon against those who make the founding book of Islam a literalist reading, a text inspired by the only word of Allah, a pure divine revelation that can not be analyzed, studied, criticized. We publish extracts exclusively.

    1. Mohammed, this unknown

    The Quran is unfortunately of very limited relevance to reconstruct the life of Muhammad and the various events related to his prophetic career. Indeed, the Quran is a deeply anhistoric text. Unlike the Gospels of the Christian New Testament, for example, there is no mention of the events in the life of Muhammad or the ancient history of the religious community he founded. The Koran is primarily intended to bring together fragments of older biblical and arabic traditions through the figure of the Prophet, excluding

     
    Gilles Kepel: "For Salafists, history is a chronology of decadence"

    Mohammad Ali Amir-Moezzi: "The Arab conquests and the first caliphates subjected the Koran to a political and religious reconstruction"

    What the Quran really says

    "The Qur'an does not forbid the representation of the Prophet"

     

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8373 - November 23, 2019, 11:08 AM

    .........................

    Mohammad Ali Amir-Moezzi: "The Arab conquests and the first caliphates subjected the Koran to a political and religious reconstruction"
    ........................

    Mohammad Ali Amir-Moezzi  comes out again and again to hit me hard.....   I wonder whether he changed or I am changing ..   Allah knows the best...

    I guess living long time in west and the many  events of Islam after 1979 Iranian messy Islam .. must have changed him., but there is a loong way to go...  In fact ., As he lives in France and writes fluently in french as well as in English .,  zeca and Altara must be familiar with his work.. In fact they suggested to me to read him.,  I must agree here he is open minded but before that revolution... hmmmm..............,  . well 40 years lots of Islam went down the river ..........

    This is from 2011
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okacPht5g-U

    CISS seminar with Prof Amir-Moezzi - 26 October 2011 


    and this is from 2017

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0j-7QA-pgAA

     Why is the Quranic Text Problematic? Oct 11, 2017

    well I must say this ., one can not speak and act in the same fashion at every organisation ..ONE MUST CHANGE THE STYLE ..just to live life ..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8374 - November 23, 2019, 11:20 AM

    Odon Lafontaine, (spokesperson of Gallez)  Criticism on "Le coran des historiens"" on the French Amazon:
    (DeepL translation...)
    Quote
    An encyclopedic and non-synthetic approach: exciting, sharp, but disappointing


    The book consists of an introductory volume presenting some thirty critical studies on the context of the emergence of Islam, and two volumes on the integral exegesis of the Koran. It is exciting, it is sharp, but it is also very disappointing because it suffers from the major defect of scientific research in general: the hyperspecialization of researchers and the absence of a global perspective.

    Critical studies are indeed fascinating, very specialized, covering a very varied field of analysis. But unfortunately, all these studies are carried out independently of each other. These are works of "hyperspecialists", each in his own corner, and we are very frustrated not to see them working in real synergy, not to see them leaning on each other to develop a global vision, a global perspective on the history of the origins of Islam and the genesis of the Koran (we will not explain the latter without really understanding the formation of Islam).

    No synthesis is thus made at the scale of the work, no truly global vision is thus brought on the genesis of the Koran from these studies (with the exception of Guillaume Dye, masterful). And so the volumes of exegesis are very frustrating because of this, even if their "encyclopedic" aspect (review of the various translations and various analyses) nevertheless makes them an interesting tool for research.

    More deeply, we can even note a major inconsistency in the book, and in particular in the articulation between the first volume and the other two: critical studies provide, each in its own speciality, a host of elements contradicting the narrative of the origins according to the tradition of Islam, a tradition that basically says that Islam comes from Mohammed's preaching to uncultivated Bedouins in the Hijaz between Mecca and Medina, which preaching will constitute the Koran. However, it will have been understood through these critical studies themselves that the figure of the "prophet of Islam" is a late creation, that the origins of Islam cannot be reduced to Hijaz alone, far from it, but that it must be extended to Syria-Palestine, Arabia, Mesopotamia, Ethiopia, etc. We will also have understood that there is a whole political-religious context preceding Islam and accompanying its formation to be taken into account: Jewish-Christian currents, religious debates, texts and recitatives in circulation, a Christianization of Arabs, an Aramaic language, a background of general apocalypse and imminence of the last judgment, geopolitical issues, etc. We will finally have understood that there has been a whole reconstruction of the political-religious doctrine and original history carried out in a caliphate environment over the centuries....

    But when we approach the exegesis of the Koran, we pretend to be nothing, or almost nothing. We pretend that the critical studies presented in the first volume are null and void since we are trying, more or less laboriously according to the contributors, to explain the Koranic text according to the mythical framework of the Muslim tradition, by forcing it back to this mythical framework even though it was previously invalidated. There are certainly some exceptions all the same, some critical impulses here and there, but on the whole, the analysis remains trapped in categories whose falsity has been demonstrated. How the hell can you understand something if you start from assumptions that are wrong? It is here that this lack of a global perspective is cruelly felt...

    And so, claiming that this book is a "major breakthrough", a research advance, seems to me to be very premature. This does not correspond to the content of the 3 volumes. It is a sum, yes, it is a juxtaposition of works, it is a formidable work that amply deserves its 4 stars, but it is not a synthesis. However, we will be grateful to the publishing house for its media hype, which helps to raise awareness that Islam is shaking on its foundations because of historical work. However, all this is very frustrating....


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8375 - November 23, 2019, 05:19 PM

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jzAuK6oAmD4&feature=emb_title
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8376 - November 23, 2019, 05:39 PM

    Pamela Klasova - Reacting to Muḥammad: Three Early Islamic Poets in the Kitāb al-Aghānī

    https://www.middleeastmedievalists.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/UW-27-Klasova.pdf?fbclid=IwAR2xBoEFo4N8T6Rbu7fs-nLL6VRqSD9c2ccN9N6RxWhlvIil9P6Xq9SeDtw
    Quote
    This article investigates how the secular Arabic poetic tradition interacted with the new religious rhetoric of emergent Islam. Concretely, it deals with the verses and legacies of three poets contemporary to Muḥammad who converted to Islam, yet protested its pietistic rhetoric. Abū Khirāsh al-Hudhalī, Abū Miḥjan al-Thaqafī, and Suḥaym, the slave of the Banū al-Ḥasḥās, all lived in the Ḥijāz and witnessed the formation of Muḥammad’s movement up close. The first aim of the article is to listen to their reactions. Because the three poets were not directly involved in the promotion of the new religion, nor were they in an open struggle against it, their testimony is especially valuable for its insight into the reception of the emergent Islamic movement among Arab tribes in the Ḥijāz, beyond Muḥammad’s close community. The second aim is to follow the later reception of the poets and their incorporation into the Arabo-Islamic canon through an examination of the narratives (akhbār) that accompany the verses in Abū al-Faraj al-Iṣfahānī’s (d. 356/967) Kitāb al-Aghānī, the underlying assumption being that these akhbār are secondary to the verses. Besides these two main points, an examination of the interplay between the verses and the akhbār also establishes the importance of Mukhaḍram poetry as a historical source and exposes the multilayered nature of the poets’ akhbār.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8377 - November 23, 2019, 07:21 PM


    thanks for that pdf file zeca., I always interested in fascinating evolution of languages and the poetic words of  early cultures that evolved many languages around the globe.,   Without the evolution of language/S human beings are nothing but animal species., in fact that is what separates humans from other species on this planet .,     In that sense Arabic language  evolution is extremely important w.r.t Islam and Quran.,

    I actually have a problem of accepting the claim of QURAN  IS THE FIRST ARABIC MANUSCRIPT and there was nothing written in Arabic language before Quran.,  My hunch is before Quran there were Arabic linguistic manuscripts such as those poems in  Pre-Islamic/pre- Quranic  cultures  in and around Arabia ..

    off course our good friend Altara disagrees with that point..  Anyway let me put this link of Paul Cooper  article on that subject here

    The ruins that inspired pre-Islamic poets hold new meaning for today’s Arabic writers by  Paul Cooper

    and  that link of  The Hanged Poems  from that great web site sacred-texts.com
     

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8378 - November 23, 2019, 07:22 PM



    Quraysh is a quranic word. As usual, Muslim polygraphs, as Morris,  have not clues about it.. I happen to have one (haha, hahaha, hahahahaha, ad infinitum)... Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8379 - November 23, 2019, 07:48 PM

    Gallez finds his inspiration for the the Quraysh with Narsaï But Morris refutes this:

    http://www.iandavidmorris.com/mecca-before-islam-4-narsai-narsais-homily/
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8380 - November 23, 2019, 08:14 PM

    Quraysh is a Quranic word.................


    Hmm So., in saying that ., Altara sayig indirectly   "NO QURAYSH BEFORE QURAN"    or   " No Arabian Quraysh tribe before Quran ...."..

    did I get tat right dear Altara

    and it all comes from that 4 verses Quran chapter....The chapter  106 Quraish,...

    For the protection of the Qureaish
    Their protection during their trading caravans in the winter and the summer
    So let them serve the Lord of this House
    Who feeds them against hunger and gives them security against fear.

    that is it.,  those lines became one chapter of Quran...

    well let me give some link to Alatra .. so he learns about Quraysh tribe ...  http://quraysh.com/history-of-quraysh.html

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8381 - November 23, 2019, 08:22 PM

    Morris:
    Quote
    Narsai’s point is that the Qadesh are not sons of Hagar,

    Nope, Narsai poses the question :
    Quote
    Are the Qadeshis brothers with the sons of Hagar?

    therefore are they Ishmaelites? Narsai affirms nothing here.
    They  [Qadesh ]looted the world more thoroughly than the Ishmaelites, Narsai says.
    That is why Narsai poses the question;  are they worst than the Ishmaelites, are they [Qadesh ] sons of Hagar like the Ishmaelites?
    He says nothing more.
    Mingana :
    Quote
    they have ‘corrected’ Qadesh to Quraysh; so Qdeš is now read as Qreš and Qdešāyē as Qrešāyē. Graphically, the change is very small indeed: in Syriac the difference between d (ܕ) and r (ܪ) is the placement of a single dot.

    Ok. Is there a dot in the manuscript? That's the question to pose to Morris.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8382 - November 23, 2019, 08:25 PM

    Hmm So., in saying that ., Altara sayig indirectly   "NO QURAYSH BEFORE QURAN"    or   " No Arabian Quraysh tribe before Quran ...."..

    did I get that right dear Altara


    Nope.I don't see the connection between what I say and what you say.


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8383 - November 23, 2019, 08:34 PM

    Quote
    " No Arabian Quraysh tribe before Quran ...."..


    Yeez,

    I think you have a point that the Qurash are not really mentioned in the Quran. The meaning of the word in 106 is not defined.

    Remains that the composers of the tradition must have found their inspiration somewhere. Or did they just make up a tribes name? I think it is probable that there existed a tribe somewhere with that name and it was a convenient solution for the exegetes. No need for the tribe to be in the Hijaz. Maybe the name was picked before the Mecca establishment? Who knows.

    Could the Qurash be mentioned in Narsai? Yes, it is essential to see the manuscript.
    But even if there is no r, it could still be "them"...It resembles enough to have served as inspiration for a hapax that needed to be explained.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8384 - November 23, 2019, 10:11 PM

    Quote
    Remains that the composers of the tradition must have found their inspiration somewhere.


    The Quran is sufficient:
    The prophet is an Arab merchant  which means he travels with camels :
    Quote
    For the protection of the  Quraysh Their protection during their trading caravans

     
    Therefore Quraysh become the tribe of the Prophet. As simple as that.
    As the polygraphs has never knows him, they elaborate the story from the text .
    The rest of the Quran provides enough allusions to build the merchant and all other things which will serve to build the Sira.
    Quote
    I think it is probable that there existed a tribe somewhere with that name and it was a convenient solution for the exegetes


    No need.

    Quote
    Could the Qurash be mentioned in Narsai? Yes, it is essential to see the manuscript.
    But even if there is no r, it could still be "them"...It resembles enough to have served as inspiration for a hapax that needed to be explained.


    Yes.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8385 - November 23, 2019, 10:29 PM

    Quote
    The Quran is sufficient:


    Altara,

    Have a look at the different translation options for 106. http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=106&verse=1
    This hapax could have a multitude of meanings. I think Morris sums them up. It doesn.t need to be the name of the tribe. Who knows, qrsh might really mean tent here: for the security of the tent... Why not?

    But to imagine this hapax to be a tribe, it is not unlogical that a tribe of that name was running around somewhere so that the associating was readily made. What did the author of the Quran mean by Qurash? That is  a different question from "what did the later exegetes imagined it meant". For me it is absolutely not evident that a name of a tribe was meant here.

    Maybe  "le Coran des historiens"has an alternative reading?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8386 - November 23, 2019, 10:43 PM

    My reading of 106 using Morris' suggestion, the lifestock option from Yemen:

    1/ For the taming of the lifestock
    2/For their taming in winter and summer caravans
    3/It is he who has fed them when they were hungry
    4/Who has fed them against hunger and has made them safe from fear

    So I just picked out some sentences from the suggested translations. I have the impression that this Surah was and is a puzzle to the exegetes.

    So no need for the 8-9th C exegetes to read a tribe name in Qrsh. But they did. Why? Maybe there was a Qrsh tribe somewhere and it inspired them to read this verse the classical way. Or indeed, it was a handy option, solely based on the 106 that needed a reading, and why not this one.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8387 - November 23, 2019, 10:57 PM

    My reading of 106 using Morris' suggestion, the lifestock option from Yemen:

    1/ For the taming of the lifestock
    2/For their taming in winter and summer caravans
    3/It is he who has fed them when they were hungry
    4/Who has fed them against hunger and has made them safe from fear


    .........................

    what ...?  mundi how can you or Morris read these words

     For the protection of the Qureaish
    Their protection during their trading caravans in the winter and the summer
    So let them serve the Lord of this House
    Who feeds them against hunger and gives them security against fear.



    as

     1/ For the taming of the lifestock
    2/For their taming in winter and summer caravans
    3/It is he who has fed them when they were hungry
    4/Who has fed them against hunger and has made them safe from fear



    the least you guys   could have written those four  verses as

    For the protection of the Qureaish live stock
    Their protection  helps feeding  our trading caravans in the winter and the summer
    So let them((Qureaish)) serve the Lord of this House
    Who feeds them against hunger and gives them security against fear.


    how about that dear mundi??  anyways let me read this..

    "Arab Prophets of the Quran and Bible." by  Brannon Wheeler.,    Journal of Quranic Studies 8.2 (2006): 24-57.

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8388 - November 23, 2019, 11:23 PM

    Yeez,

    No, your reading won't do. I am finding an other meaning for Qurash. Morris said Qrsh was attested in Yemen as live stock. And the rest of the text comes from the different suggestions here: http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=106&verse=1

    I just want to prove how unstable these readings are with a hapax of which the meaning is a mystery.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8389 - November 24, 2019, 12:25 AM

    Altara,


    Yes Wink
    Quote
    Have a look at the different translation options for 106. http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=106&verse=1


    Done. Wink
    Quote
    This hapax could have a multitude of meanings.

     

    The Muslim polygraphs have chosen one meaning. As this was a word that they did not understand, they gathered what they have already taken from the text : God speaks to a man in arabic, therefore it is an Arab; Q106 speaks of caravan therefore he is a merchant, why this word could not be the name of his tribe? Thus, was decreed that it was the name of his tribe. Who was going to check that out? They have Wikipedia?  Internet?
    What child reading the Quran in the beginning of the 8 th c. would say : "No! Quraysh is not the name of the tribe of the Prophet!"
    Which one?
    It is as simple as that Mundi. Very simple.
    The issue is that you reflect with the categories of 2019. Not the 7th c. ones where God intervenes regularly in the world, where all theses things are normal and where He just spoke to an Arab (at last!) as the Quranic corpus attests it.

    Quote
    It doesn't need to be the name of the tribe.

     
    Who said that? Nobody. For the Muslims it was.

    Quote
    Who knows, qrsh might really mean tent here: for the security of the tent... Why not?


    Why not...

    Quote
    But to imagine this hapax to be a tribe, it is not illogical that a tribe of that name was running around somewhere so that the associating was readily made.

     
    Surely not. Simply because Muslim polygraphs had no clues (at all) of the meaning of the word.What they wrote about it attests it. Wink

    Quote
    What did the author of the Quran mean by Qurash?


    Haha, hahaha, hahahahaha (ad infinitum)...

    Quote
    That is  a different question from "what did the later exegetes imagined it meant".


    Yes.
    Quote
    For me it is absolutely not evident that a name of a tribe was meant here.


    Are you an Arab of the 7th c. deciphering  a text where God has spoken to someone like you?
    No offense Mundi: But I do not think so.

    Quote
    Maybe  "le Coran des historiens"has an alternative reading?


    One should ask to Odon Lafontaine Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8390 - November 24, 2019, 12:28 AM

    Yeez,

    No, your reading won't do. I am finding an other meaning for Qurash. Morris said Qrsh.....................

    that is true .. that is indeed true dear mundi ..  but it also goes to YOUR FINDING OF OTHER MEANING OR WHAT MORRIS SAYS or what anyone says on the origins of  some words in Quran or Quran itself .,     it does nothing to Islam and Muslim folks ..

    what matters to the followers of Islam is is the today's news Pakistan protests desecration of Quran in Norway



    Quote
    ISLAMABAD (AP) — Pakistan’s Foreign Ministry says it has summoned Norway’s ambassador to convey the deep concern of the government and Pakistani people over the recent burning of Islam’s holy book by a Norwegian man that was caught on video.

    In Saturday’s statement, the ministry said: “Such actions hurt the sentiments of 1.3 billion Muslims around the world.”

    The statement demanded action against the person in the city of Kristiansand who desecrated the Quran at an anti-Islam rally last week. Pakistan’s reaction comes after video surfaced on social media showing a non-Muslim man burning the book.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UepHI5LJLo

    not sure where the world goes with such news ., but it really doesn't matter what I say or wht you say or what any Ph.D.,  says  about Islam and Islamic history

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8391 - November 24, 2019, 01:20 AM

    On the Qur'anic Accusation of Scriptural Falsification (tahrîf) and Christian Anti-Jewish Polemic  by GABRIEL SAID REYNOLDS  Journal of the American Oriental Society 130.2 (2010)

    Quote
    According to the fully articulated salvation history of Islam, Moses and Jesus (like all
    prophets) were Muslims. Moses received an Islamic scripture, the Torah {tawrät), as did
    Jesus, the Gospel (injU). Their communities, however, suppressed their religion and altered
    their scriptures. Accordingly, a canonical h^dlth has the Prophet Muhammad declare:
    O community of Muslims, how is it that you seek wisdom from the People of the Book? Your
    book, brought down upon His Prophet—blessings and peace of God upon him—is the latest
    report about God. You read a Book that has not been distorted, but the People of the Book, as
    God related to you, exchanged that which God wrote [for something else], changing the book
    with their hands. '

    This hadïth reflects the idea found frequently among Muslim scholars, usually described with
    the term tahrîf, that the Bible has been literally altered. The same idea lies behind Yâqût's
    (d. 626/1229) attribution of a quotation on Jerusalem to a Jewish convert to Islam from Banü
    Qurayza "who possessed a copy of the uncorrupted Torah." •^

    Muslim scholars also accuse Jews and Christians of misinterpreting the Bible by hiding, ignoring, or misreading it, and on occasion they describe such misinterpretation as tahrîf as
    well.
    Accordingly, in scholarly treatments of the subject a comparison is sometimes made between tahrîf al-nass, alteration of the text of scripture, and tahrîf al-ma'anî, misinterpretation  of scripture. Yet Muslim scholars who accuse Jews and Christians of misinterpretation do not mean to imply thereby that the Bible has not been altered. Instead they employ the idea of tahrîf al-ma'anî for the sake of argument.-'


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8392 - November 24, 2019, 08:21 AM

    O Qurash in 106:

    So 2 questions remain;

    1/ what did the 610(?) Quranic author mean with QRsh?
    2/ Where did the 8-9C exegetes get their inspiration for reading Qrsh as a tribe. Two answers for this one.

    a) No outside inspiration needed. The consonantal skeleton of the Quran was enough to make Qurashites as a reading and to give it as meaning the tribe of Mohammed.
    b) A Qurash tribe really existed (but not in the Hijaz, but who cared at the time). This existence helped crystalize the reading and meaning of 106.

    PS. 106 is a verse that is NOT in my earliest list of manuscripts! It would be an ideal candidate for later addition, right at the end of the book. But if it is a later addition, they could have written it better to fit the purpose. So the obscurity of it, is an argument for early composition together with the rest of Quran.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8393 - November 24, 2019, 09:57 AM

    #IQSA19: https://mobile.twitter.com/hashtag/IQSA19?src=hashtag_click
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8394 - November 24, 2019, 10:16 AM

    O Qurash in 106:

    So 2 questions remain;
    ..........................................
    PS. 106 is a verse that is NOT in my earliest list of manuscripts! It would be an ideal candidate for later addition, right at the end of the book. But if it is a later addition, they could have written it better to fit the purpose. So the obscurity of it, is an argument for early composition together with the rest of Quran.

    one more question to you on top those 2 unsolvable questions dear mundi..

    you say "106 is a verse that is NOT in my earliest list of manuscripts" ..  does  it mean   whole 106 chapter  is missing??    .. i mean 

    Quote
    For the protection of the Qureaish
    Their protection during their trading caravans in the winter and the summer
    So let them serve the Lord of this House
    Who feeds them against hunger and gives them security against fear.


    all those 4 verses in them are missing?   or  just that verse   "For the protection of the Qureaish"  is missing in those early manuscripts??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8395 - November 24, 2019, 10:28 AM



    my goodness lots of pictures in that folder .. glad to see them.. but NONE OF THEM ......THEIR WORK .. CONFERENCES...MEETINGS..PUBLICATIONS  on early Islam are as popular as this guy   and his work..

    the  organizers  should have asked him to attend the meeting as an honorary member  to educate the attendees  on Islam

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8396 - November 24, 2019, 03:41 PM

    O Qurash in 106:

    So 2 questions remain;

    1/ what did the 610(?) Quranic author mean with QRsh?


    Well, Muslims polygraphs and Western scholars have no clues : "little shark", etc (Hahaha!)

    Quote
    2/ Where did the 8-9C exegetes get their inspiration for reading Qrsh as a tribe. Two answers for this one.

    a) No outside inspiration needed. The consonantal skeleton of the Quran was enough to make Qurashites as a reading and to give it as meaning the tribe of Mohammed.


    That's what I'm leaning towards.

    Quote
    b) A Qurash tribe really existed (but not in the Hijaz, but who cared at the time). This existence helped crystalize the reading and meaning of 106.

    Great believers >> Mainstream scholars.

    Quote
    PS. 106 is a verse that is NOT in my earliest list of manuscripts! It would be an ideal candidate for later addition, right at the end of the book.


    The issue here is that if one have only fragments, it does not mean that this fragments were not parts of entire codices.
    It seems to me rather imprudent  to base a reasoning on the fact that : "Oh folks! As we have only fragments!, It means that the Quranic corpus was not complete, Q 106 is later addition!!!"



  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8397 - November 24, 2019, 03:57 PM



    It is not broadcasted in YT; that's a big issue.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8398 - November 24, 2019, 03:59 PM



    Quote
    Study of the Hijra from @shahanSean arguing that Syriac documents with Seleucid and Hijra dates point to historicity of Hijra. #IQSA19


    Alexander has made a great Hijra as well as Christopher Columbus, Vasco de Gama, etc Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8399 - November 24, 2019, 04:59 PM

    Yeez,

    on 106:

    https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/106/vers/1?handschrift=24

    I think this is about the oldest manuscript in the corpus coranicum list that has 106 (around 700AD?). It is not complete, and I have trouble detecting what part exactly is represented. I see that modern "surah qurash"is written as Surah title, but then my Arabic abandons me... Maybe you see it?

    Also CB 1615 II has it, but no images, dating also around 700? Or maybe earlier, but post 650.
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