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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8250 - November 05, 2019, 05:42 PM

    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/Safaitic/status/1191706781258530818
    Quote
    I’ve seen this cited recently as “possibly” the earliest example of diacritics in Arabic. The text is published in this article : https://www.persee.fr/doc/syria_0039-7946_2004_num_81_1_7779 Let’s put this to rest: the preislamic dating by the editio princeps is completely impossible. Do not entertain this ...

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8251 - November 05, 2019, 08:19 PM

    Yeez,

     I read van  Putten's tweet as
    -Wetzstein II is 85% complete (C14, 662-765, σ2 (95,4%) )
    - Topkapi "basically" complete ( 8th C?)
    - BNF arabe 339 , (written date on it: 799) complete

    .................corpus coranicum (https://corpuscoranicum.de/) to see if these are attested in certain manuscripts. That is an easy job ...............

    Hi mundi Questions on that .."easy job".. and on those  Wetzstein II .,  Topkapi., BNF arabe Qurans...

    well nothing was easy in my life and nothing seems to be easy to me even today  ..lol.... any ways these two verses of Quran..3:31 and 3: 32 from that surah  Al Imran

    Quote
    Yusuf Ali:   Say: "If ye do love Allah, Follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

    Shakir:   Say: If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

    Pickthall:   Say, (O Muhammad, to mankind): If ye love Allah, follow me; Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

    Mohsin Khan:   Say (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم to mankind): "If you (really) love Allah then follow me (i.e. accept Islamic Monotheism, follow the Qur'an and the Sunnah), Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

    Saheeh:   Say, [O Muhammad], "If you should love Allah, then follow me, [so] Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."


    Quote
    Yusuf Ali:   Say: "Obey Allah and His Messenger": But if they turn back, Allah loveth not those who reject Faith.

    Shakir:   Say: Obey Allah and the Apostle; but if they turn back, then surely Allah does not love the unbelievers.

    Pickthall:   Say: Obey Allah and the messenger. But if they turn away, lo! Allah loveth not the disbelievers (in His guidance).

    Mohsin Khan:   Say (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم): "Obey Allah and the Messenger (Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم)." But if they turn away, then Allah does not like the disbelievers .

    Saheeh:   Say, "Obey Allah and the Messenger." But if they turn away - then indeed, Allah does not like the disbelievers.


    I read them at that   corpus coranicum as

    Quote
    https://corpuscoranicum.de/index/index/sure/3/vers/31 
    Say: If you love God, then follow me, so that God may love you and forgive you your guilt! God is merciful and ready to forgive.

    https://corpuscoranicum.de/index/index/sure/3/vers/32

    Say: Obey God and the Messenger! If you turn away (are you just disbelieving). God does not love the unbelievers.


    am I right?? I guess those words in brackets have been added by the author ., but they are not there in Arabic verse .. right??

    Here comes the question to you... Those two verses.,  can't we see similar statements in New testament .. if we replace  "Muhammad " with "Jesus??" off course ..there is neither Muhammad nor Jesus in those statements ., but Islam preachers assume Allah Telling Muhammad to tell those words to his followers,,,,,

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8252 - November 05, 2019, 08:34 PM

    Yeez,

    Glad you are discovering Corpus Coranicum. I am surprised that you managed to get an English translation out of this site..

    I thought you knew Arabic? I think Corpus just uses some official German Quran translation whatever is written in the manuscript. They do indicate which letters/words are missing in the transliteration part.

    Do the suggested verses fit in NT? Should I know?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8253 - November 05, 2019, 08:50 PM

    Yeez,

    Glad you are discovering Corpus Coranicum. I am surprised that you managed to get an English translation out of this site..

    I thought you knew Arabic? I think Corpus just uses some official German Quran translation whatever is written in the manuscript. They do indicate which letters/words are missing in the transliteration part.

    well I speak many languages none are good enough translating religious manuscripts .. I look multiple translators to make sure they all in line 

    Quote
    Do the suggested verses fit in NT? Should I know?

     lol.. yes I think you should know.. any one who exploring Quran MUST KNOW   .. what% of Quran or what verses can be put in to bible without changing the story .. and vice versa...

    for e..g unlike those two verses 3:31 and 3: 32  ., this verse 33:50

    Quote
    https://corpuscoranicum.de/index/index/sure/33/vers/50

    يأيها ٱلنبی إنآ أحللنا لك أزوجك ٱلتی ءاتيت أجورهن وما ملكت يمينك ممآ أفآء ٱلله عليك وبنات عمك وبنات عمتك وبنات خالك وبنات خلتك ٱلتی هاجرن معك وٱمرأة مؤمنة إن وهبت نفسها للنبی إن أراد ٱلنبی أن يستنكحها خالصة لك من دون ٱلمؤمنين قد علمنا ما فرضنا عليهم فی أزوجهم وما ملكت أيمنهم لكيلا ي كون عليك حرج وكان ٱلله غفورا رحيما 

    Prophet! We have allowed you to marry: your wives, to whom you have given their reward (ie, their dowry); what you (slaves) possesses (a possession that has been assigned to you by God (as booty)) the daughters of your uncle and your paternal aunts and your uncle and maternal aunts who have emigrated with you; (further) a believing woman when she gives herself to the Prophet and he (in turn) wants to marry her. The (latter?) Is special for you unlike the (other) believers. We know well what we have made them obligatory with regard to their wives and possessions (to slaves). (The above regulation is a special regulation for you) so you do not need to feel depressed (if you claim extra rights).


    33:50 from other translators

    Quote
    Yusuf Ali:   O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee; and daughters of thy paternal uncles and aunts, and daughters of thy maternal uncles and aunts, who migrated (from Makka) with thee; and any believing woman who dedicates her soul to the Prophet if the Prophet wishes to wed her;- this only for thee, and not for the Believers (at large); We know what We have appointed for them as to their wives and the captives whom their right hands possess;- in order that there should be no difficulty for thee. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

    Shakir:   O Prophet! surely We have made lawful to you your wives whom you have given their dowries, and those whom your right hand possesses out of those whom Allah has given to you as prisoners of war, and the daughters of your paternal uncles and the daughters of your paternal aunts, and the daughters of your maternal uncles and the daughters of your maternal aunts who fled with you; and a believing woman if she gave herself to the Prophet, if the Prophet desired to marry her-- specially for you, not for the (rest of) believers; We know what We have ordained for them concerning their wives and those whom their right hands possess in order that no blame may attach to you; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

    Pickthall:   O Prophet! Lo! We have made lawful unto thee thy wives unto whom thou hast paid their dowries, and those whom thy right hand possesseth of those whom Allah hath given thee as spoils of war, and the daughters of thine uncle on the father's side and the daughters of thine aunts on the father's side, and the daughters of thine uncle on the mother's side and the daughters of thine aunts on the mother's side who emigrated with thee, and a believing woman if she give herself unto the Prophet and the Prophet desire to ask her in marriage - a privilege for thee only, not for the (rest of) believers - We are Aware of that which We enjoined upon them concerning their wives and those whom their right hands possess - that thou mayst be free from blame, for Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.

    Mohsin Khan:   O Prophet (Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم)! Verily, We have made lawful to you your wives, to whom you have paid their Mahr (bridal-money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage), and those (slaves) whom your right hand possesses - whom Allah has given to you, and the daughters of your 'Amm (paternal uncles) and the daughters of your 'Ammat (paternal aunts) and the daughters of your Khal (maternal uncles) and the daughters of your Khalat (maternal aunts) who migrated (from Makkah) with you, and a believing woman if she offers herself to the Prophet, and the Prophet wishes to marry her - a privilege for you only, not for the (rest of) the believers. Indeed We know what We have enjoined upon them about their wives and those (slaves) whom their right hands possess, in order that there should be no difficulty on you. And Allah is Ever Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

    Saheeh:   O Prophet, indeed We have made lawful to you your wives to whom you have given their due compensation and those your right hand possesses from what Allah has returned to you [of captives] and the daughters of your paternal uncles and the daughters of your paternal aunts and the daughters of your maternal uncles and the daughters of your maternal aunts who emigrated with you and a believing woman if she gives herself to the Prophet [and] if the Prophet wishes to marry her, [this is] only for you, excluding the [other] believers. We certainly know what We have made obligatory upon them concerning their wives and those their right hands possess, [but this is for you] in order that there will be upon you no discomfort. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful.


    So that 33:50 is specific to Quran.. and to alleged Prophet of Islam ( I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT .. I think rogues of Islam added that verse at later stages))

    the other question to you,,, assuming that all that https://corpuscoranicum.de/  Arabic Quran completed by  say year 650 .,

    all those 114 chapters are as you see in the book Quran .

    Would that mean what I was thinking that Quran sequence  appears to be not in order such as Meccan surahs and Madinan surahs are jumbled is not right??

    I hope you understand the question

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8254 - November 05, 2019, 09:17 PM

    Quran complete by 650:

    I am not sure of that. Like I siad before, I think J. Smith has a point: if Quran was complete from the beginning, where is it?
    So maybe a few Surahs or complete verses were still added after this date. But maybe not and its a coincidence the first copies of the Quran were not preserved.

    Meccan and Medina verses jumbled? Well, I dont believe the action  happened in Mecca and Medina. So I can't answer that question.

    Maybe a rogue element did add some male fantasy verses. But he added them pre 650 then. Surah 33:50 is in Chester Beatty 1 (C14 610-660), Dam 1-29.1 (C14 640-660) and OR. 2165.

    Now going back to the 3:31 verses, I don't think they have a particular Christian feel to it. But I might be wrong there and comparing with 21st C Christian ideas.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8255 - November 06, 2019, 12:25 AM

    Quote
    Here comes the question to you... Those two verses.,  can't we see similar statements in New testament .. if we replace  "Muhammad " with "Jesus??"


    Yes.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8256 - November 06, 2019, 07:03 AM

    Quote
    yeezevee:  Quran complete by 650:


    I am not sure of that. Like I siad before, I think J. Smith has a point: if Quran was complete from the beginning, where is it?
    So maybe a few Surahs or complete verses were still added after this date. But maybe not and its a coincidence the first copies of the Quran were not preserved.

    well I am assuming what is there at https://corpuscoranicum.de/  is all done by the year 650 and assuming what is there at that site is also there in those Sana manuscripts .

    So when do you think that this present Quran  book  first  came in to existence in to the hands of people  in its complete form.. full book??  .. in 650?  690? or  in the year 790?

    Quote
    Meccan and Medina verses jumbled? Well, I dont believe the action  happened in Mecca and Medina. So I can't answer that question.

    So  you are agreeing with Altara that there was no Mecca..Medina,, Muhammad?  and it is all zam zam water??

    well Ok.,   how about Petra & Yathrib??and Prophet of Islam Muhammad born in Petra and moved in to Yathrib because of Petra folks prosecuted him for his preaching?   and present Quran  verses  sequence of revelation is messed up by those who put the book together after death of prophet of Islam ?  would you believe that ??

    Quote
    Maybe a rogue element did add some male fantasy verses. But he added them pre 650 then. Surah 33:50 is in Chester Beatty 1 (C14 610-660), Dam 1-29.1 (C14 640-660) and OR. 2165.

    well those C14 dating  610 is a problem but from 620 -660  or 640-660 is fine as it fits well  with conventional Islamic story of Prophet's life .,  And  there is plenty of time for  rogue element to add such rubbish verses in to Quran specially after the death of Hadrat Khadija in the year 619  between 620 to 640

    Quote
    610: The first revelation in the cave at Mt. Hira ]The Holy Prophet is commissioned as the Messenger of God.

    619: Lifting of the boycott. Deaths of Abu Talib and Hadrat Khadija. Year of sorrow.

    632: Death of the Holy Prophet. Election of Hadrat Abu Bakr as the Caliph


    Quote
    Now going back to the 3:31 verses, I don't think they have a particular Christian feel to it. But I might be wrong there and comparing with 21st C Christian ideas.

    why  21st C Christian ideas??   NT 1st century Christian ideas have plenty of such verses.,   and   why you think those 3:31 and 3:32   does not fit in NT Christian sayings??  to me it fits well with NT Christian sayings .... and Altara is agreeing with me ..

    And there are plenty of Quran verses that have OT & NT sayings., 

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8257 - November 06, 2019, 09:00 AM

    Yeez,

    Why would we see 33: 50 as rogue verses inserted in a good (christian?) Quran? That's our cultural bias.

    Plenty of people (including women and even western female converts) think the polygamy verses are wonderful and inspiring and think society would be better off applying this stuff even today. Maybe beginning 7th C people thought it was even a better idea than it is now. Maybe people were glad to be rid of the increasingly tighter restrictions on polygamy and concubinage that the Christian churches were imposing. Islam was and is tremendously successful. So who knows, maybe the polygamy and slavery is the real core Quran and the Christian type verses are later add-ons?

    I just ckecked 3;31 and 3:32. They are not in my list of early C14 dated manuscripts. It is in Arabe 328a which has not been dated but is expected to be very early. But until it is C14éd we can't really know. Who knows, it might confirm my new add-on theory: Christan type verses are later add-ons. They were added to the belligerent and polygamy/concubine verses afterwards under influence of the occupation of Christian lands in the Levant. Would that make sense?

    On 3:31and NT. If Altara says it resembles I'm ready to believe him. He probably has better credentials on this than I.  I just thought this point of first having to love God so maybe God will love you back conflicted a bit with this "heavenly father" idea. But I 'll follow Altara on this one and change my mind to, yes , it resembles NT.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8258 - November 06, 2019, 10:45 AM

    Yeez,

    Why would we see 33: 50 as rogue verses inserted in a good (christian?) Quran?
    Quote
    That's our cultural bias.


    to answer that .. I need to write a book or at least 3 pages of oped  and i need to pull out lot more Quran verses and OT / NT statements dear mundi .. and I will sometime ,, there is NO GOOD OR NO BAD,, it is just a book of its time and nothing to do with my culture dear mundi....

    Quote
    Plenty of people (including women and even western female converts) think the polygamy verses are wonderful and inspiring and think society would be better off applying this stuff even today. Maybe beginning 7th C people thought it was even a better idea than it is now. Maybe people were glad to be rid of the increasingly tighter restrictions on polygamy and concubinage that the Christian churches were imposing. Islam was and is tremendously successful. So who knows, maybe the polygamy and slavery is the real core Quran and the Christian type verses are later add-ons?

    oh my goodness .. loads of stuff in few words in your post

    there is No Christian type and there is No Muslim type ..as far as polygamy is concerned .. Is it not there in OT??   how about LGBT problems and faiths ??  OT/NT/QURAN or other faiths?? these are different problems dear mundi.,  off course they are  all debatable social/political/religious problems

    here my interest is HOW MUCH OF OT -NT VERSES OR SAYINGS((similar if not same))  are there in Quran ..  i would say as much as over 70%......

    Quote
    I just ckecked 3;31 and 3:32. They are not in my list of early C14 dated manuscripts. It is in Arabe 328a which has not been dated but is expected to be very early. But until it is C14éd we can't really know.

     If I was there in those times as an Arab guy
     this impostor Arab Prophet yeezevee  - if he was an Arab Christian before Islam - he could have written them as  Arabic bible and name it as Quran.,     in fact much  of the Quran  as high as 70% of present book  I could  sell it  as Arabic ONT (old new testament ) for my followers
    Quote
    Who knows, it might confirm my new add-on theory: Christan type verses are later add-ons.

    I would say your theort should be otherway around...

    Quote
    They were add to the beligerent and polygamy/concubine verses afterwards under influence of the occupation of Christian lands in the Levant.

    there is plenty of polygamism-concubineism  in the life of prophets of Christianity

    Quote
    Would that make sense?

    nope

    Quote
    On 3:31and NT. If Altara says it resembles I'm ready to believe him. He probably has better credentials on this than I.  I just thought this point of first having to love God so maybe God will love you back conflicted a bit with this "heavenly father" idea. But I 'll follow Altara on this one and change my mind to, yes , it resembles NT.

    Altara should answer that., i think he already did in a cryptic way...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8259 - November 06, 2019, 11:28 AM

    The (good) knowledge of Christians texts and Jewish ones is mandatory to the study of the Quran.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8260 - November 06, 2019, 12:11 PM

    Yeez,

    We already had this  polygamy discussion and we discussed sources where it was clear that 7th C Christianity was restrictive upto being prohibitive concerning polygamy/concubinage.

    That the OT has polygamous prophets is not an argument here. Christian doctrine in 7th C clearly didn't declare the lives of the prophets as so perfect that every Christian had to try to imitate their marital life. You are extrapolating the Islamic literalism to 7th C Christianity. Clearly, 7th C christianity didnt work that way.

    There is a clear difference from the historical perspective btw copying age old texts about polygamy and " inventing" it as word of God. That is what happened in 7th C Quran, telling people that was the way to go, with God's blessing. This was a 7th C text with a clear mandate for that way of life, a break with the dominant religion of the time.

    I used the term "Christian type verses"bc you introduced the link of Quran and NT. I'm quite willing to give these verses another name.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8261 - November 06, 2019, 01:58 PM

    The Roman Military Camp in Ancient Hegra.


    The site of ancient Hegra (modern Madain Salih in
    north-western Saudi Arabia) is well-known for its Nabataean
    monumental rock-cut tombs, similar to those from Petra,
    but it also includes a sizeable settlement The political
    and economic importance of the Nabataean kingdom (2nd
    century BC – AD 106) is attributed to the economics of the
    long-distance incense trade between South Arabia and
    the Mediterranean, in which the Nabataeans achieved a
    manifest success They established themselves in Hegra
    sometime in the 1st century BC and this frontier settlement
    soon grew into the significant, southernmost Nabataean
    commercial entrepôt.

    https://www.academia.edu/40791336/The_Roman_Military_Camp_in_Ancient_Hegra._By_Zbigniew_T._Fiema_and_Fran%C3%A7ois_Villeneuve
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8262 - November 06, 2019, 02:47 PM

    mundi..mundi.. dear mundi  .. first let me edit the previous post as there are some spell mistakes and missing words
    Yeez,

    We already had this  polygamy discussion and we discussed sources where it was clear that 7th C Christianity was restrictive upto being prohibitive concerning polygamy/concubinage.

    well that may be true for 7th century Christianity  but Quran texts come from OT & NT that are much older than 7th century and much of Quran itself is older than 7th century dear mundi

    Quote
    That the OT has polygamous prophets is not an argument here. Christian doctrine in 7th C clearly didn't declare the lives of the prophets as so perfect that every Christian had to try to imitate their marital life. You are extrapolating the Islamic literalism to 7th C Christianity. Clearly, 7th C christianity didnt work that way

     .Again 7th century Christianity or 21st century Christianity  or modern scientific evolutionary biological theories are irrelevant to Quran

    Quote
    There is a clear difference from the historical perspective btw copying age old texts about polygamy and " inventing" it as word of God. That is what happened in 7th C Quran, telling people that was the way to go, with God's blessing. This was a 7th C text with a clear mandate for that way of life, a break with the dominant religion of the time.

    I agree with that ,, That is the reason I ALWAYS SAID .. "preaching ... arguing.. brain washing people with one single statement will clean up all the mess in ALL FAITH BOOKS INCLUDING QURAN....... dear mundi"

    Quote
    I used the term  "Christian type verses"bc ., you introduced the link of Quran and NT. I'm quite willing to give these verses  another name.

    Nope I willing to fight with you on that and settle the argument as  ARABIC BIBLE TEXTS BEFORE QURAN  as another name in the line of your suggestion

      Cat fight Cat fight

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8263 - November 06, 2019, 03:54 PM

    Yeez,

    Quote
    .Again 7th century Christianity or 21st century Christianity  or modern scientific evolutionary biological theories are irrelevant to Quran


    ?? 7th C Christianity irrelevant to the Quran? I don't follow anymore...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8264 - November 06, 2019, 05:42 PM

    Sometimes it is hard to follow Yeez Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8265 - November 06, 2019, 05:56 PM

    Yeez,

    ?? 7th C Christianity irrelevant to the Quran? I don't follow anymore...

    Sometimes it is hard to follow Yeez Wink

     Cheesy Cheesy   you are right mundi ., friends have said that innumerable times in this forum itself and sometimes on my face., but that is OK..

     Well my point was ., what is 7th C Christianity., or 7th C Judaism or   even 7th century Islam (ie.. The Umayyad Caliphate (661–750 CE) has to do with Core Ideas that I read in Quran?

    I say Nothing....

    But It is true OT & NT books/saying/preachers/preaching does have to do with Quran  ..

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8266 - November 06, 2019, 06:01 PM

    Ancient Hegra:

    Here is the complete 2017 report: https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-01804965/document

    Nehmé says p 209:

    Quote
    The Arabic inscriptions are the only epigraphic evidence of
    Madāʾin Ṣāliḥ which have not been surveyed yet and since no occupation from the Islamic period
    was evidenced during the excavations, these texts are the only witness of the presence of people
    or of passersby in the area. Many of them seem to be relatively early, and it would be very useful
    to have them properly recorded.6 An official permission will be requested from the SCTH in order
    to study them in due time. This study will be integrated in the Madāʾin Ṣāliḥ project and the
    documentation recorded with the same accuracy.


    So I note

    1/ 4-7C seems to be "low season"for Hegra that is supposed to be on the caravan route from Mecca
    2/ doesnt seem that a burgeoning Arabic pre-Islamic community was present on this Mecca-Petra route
    3/Nothing (pre) islamic/Arab has been found in excavations
    4/ No Christian stuff post 4th C Roman period
    5/ The Arabic inscriptions seem to be kept on a tight lead.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8267 - November 06, 2019, 08:06 PM

    Quote
    1/ 4-7C seems to be "low season"for Hegra that is supposed to be on the caravan route from Mecca


    Yes.

    Quote
    2/ doesnt seem that a burgeoning Arabic pre-Islamic community was present on this Mecca-Petra route

     
    Of course.
    Quote
    3/Nothing (pre) islamic/Arab has been found in excavations


    Idem.
    Quote
    4/ No Christian stuff post 4th C Roman period


    Idem.
    Quote
    5/ The Arabic inscriptions seem to be kept on a tight lead.

    Idem.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8268 - November 06, 2019, 08:30 PM

    So Altara,

    Clear that nothing came from Mecca, but also not from Yatrib/Medina. If the lather were an important centre, it would have left marks on the Medina/Petra highway.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8269 - November 07, 2019, 11:05 AM

    The frame Mecca/Medina/Zem zem/Kaba:Therefore Muhammad talking to God (during 20+ years) in a great city of commerce and producing the Quran, city  whose the inhabitants organize and manage great caravans from Yemen to Roman empire has never existed.
    Placed further north, south, east, where there is a strong scribal culture, this story (20+years!) would have plausibly spread.There is no traces of it.Nowhere.
    Therefore it has to be put aside.
    There is no plot. Arabs believed to this story as it is explained to them the existence of the Quran written in Arabic.Story elaborated from the Quran, each verse becoming a point of departure of lore as the narrative verses in the Quranic text allow it.
    Therefore the origin of the Quran has to be searched:
    One knows:
    That none sources internal or external come corroborate the Meccan/Medinan (or more generally peninsula)  provenance of Arabs leaders in 630+ in Syria- Palestine.
    That the Arabs who deciphered/decoded/completed the Quran as there was only the consonantal skeleton,  have produced different Quran due to their homework with no relation to the others who have made the same work: the result is different texts. It is logic, as they have not an oral tradition despite the narrative they have build that the text has been produced orally.
    That  the Arabs did not understand syntax, grammar of the texts they have produced and adapted it to their own Arabic.
    That they did not understand words, expressions, accounts,  and that they are not agree in the chronology of the different part (114) of the texts. Indication of chronology that they draw from the text itself.
    Etc., ad infinitum.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8270 - November 07, 2019, 12:02 PM

    Altara,

    I long thought Medina was still in the picture somehow. But seen the lack of archeological evidence in Hegra, I must change my mind on that one.

    But looking at the map, what administrative centre is left
    1/where a text as the Quran could have originated?
    2/where a sufficient critical mass of people lived to perform the task of being a new set of rulers, using the same dialect as the Quran. The Egyptian early papyri are written in Quranic Arabic..?

    Tayma has been archeologically excavated too, yielding nothing. Any other suggestion?

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8271 - November 07, 2019, 12:34 PM

    Quote
    Altara,


    Yes

    Quote
    I long thought Medina was still in the picture somehow.


    I long thought that the Quran emerged from the frame Mecca/Medina/Zem zem/Kaba/Muhammad. More, I did not really care but I always cared about Islam as such (largely before  the "events"...)I did not really care  because I thought that all was more or less historically validated.
    That is why I bought the Gallez thesis in 2005. Despite many biases it is (very) worth reading as he proposes which no one else has done: combine history with an understanding of the Quranic text. Gallez help to understand that nothing is historically validated of what recounts Muslims about the emergence of their text.
    Quote
    But looking at the map, what administrative centre is left

    Scribal centre would be better.

    Quote
    1/where a text as the Quran could have originated?


    Wink I have a proposition about that. You will read it in time (I'm not a prophet, therefore I hope so...)
    Quote
    2/where a sufficient critical mass of people lived to perform the task of being a new set of rulers,

    Reflect.

    Quote
    using the same dialect as the Quran. The Egyptian early papyri are written in Quranic Arabic..?


    PERF 558 is not long enough to compare its language with the Quranic one.

    Quote
    Tayma has been archeologically excavated too, yielding nothing. Any other suggestion?

    1/There is nothing in the peninsula.
    2/Arabs are not mainly in the peninsula.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8272 - November 07, 2019, 12:44 PM

    here are the Arte videos on excavations of Hegra and Petra:

    https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5iuypr
    https://t.co/eaO6V3rEEv?amp=1
    https://t.co/FQIx7fNKxp?amp=1

    Gallez:

    He includes Medina in his scenario...


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8273 - November 07, 2019, 01:00 PM

    Altara - what dates are the earliest surviving references to Mecca/Medina as the original home of the Quran and base for the conquests?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8274 - November 07, 2019, 02:10 PM

    Quote
    I'm a prophet, therefore I hope so.........Reflect...........Reflect.......Reflect.......Reflect.....


    Helloooooooooo  Prophet Altara..  reflecting on your words,. hope to read new revelations ASAP.,

    So    expanding that zeca question on these two words Mecca & Medina

     ,... Mecca means.....Huh?
    .......Medina means....Huh?


    Altara - what dates are the earliest surviving references to Mecca/Medina as the original home of the Quran...................


    Q1., Does those words have any Arabic meaning .. such as "Muhammad" means ...........Praise the lord ... Praise worthy person ??

    Q2..Clearly Mecca word is used in Quran  assuming the date of that manuscript around the year 645.,  does that mean Arabs/nomads/travelers  did know the present town Mecca around the year 645??

    Q3. Coming to Umayyad Caliphate(( between the years 660-750 or so)) ...and these two towns ..  Mecca  ......Medina.,

    Did any one write anything about these towns and the people living in those towns preferably from NON-ARABIC WRITERS??  because that area . Umayyad Caliphate ruled was filled with many languages that had scripts  such as  Coptic, Greek, Latin, Persian ..etc..

    thank you for your time and answers Prophet A...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8275 - November 07, 2019, 02:30 PM

    Ian David Morris - Mecca and Macoraba

    http://www.middleeastmedievalists.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/UW-26-Morris.pdf
    Quote
    Claudius Ptolemy’s second-century Geography places the name Macoraba in the west of the Arabian Peninsula. There is a consensus in Orientalist scholarship that Macoraba is Mecca, and to a lesser extent that the name derives from an Ancient South Arabian word for “temple.” This paper traces the identification of Macoraba as Mecca back to Samuel Bochart in 1646 and assesses the changing interpretations of Macoraba since then. It concludes that no satisfactory derivation has been proposed to explain the difference between the names Mecca and Macoraba, and argues that the consensus should now be abandoned or more rigorously defended.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8276 - November 07, 2019, 04:06 PM



    Thanks.

    Quote
    Gallez:

    He includes Medina in his scenario...



    For the sake of his judeo nazarean thesis.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8277 - November 07, 2019, 04:18 PM

    Altara - what dates are the earliest surviving references to Mecca/Medina as the original home of the Quran and base for the conquests?


    1/For the 9th c. narratives, it is granted naturally that Mecca/Medina is the root of the existence of the Quran. Therefore all is flowing from those places : events and figures.
    2/Dates given by the 9th c.narratives about when a more or less Islamic figure of the second generation speak of Mecca/Medina (about the Prophet) and quoting these figures is to my knowledge end of the 7th c. Generally these figures are decreed by  the 9th c.narratives as being born in Mecca/Medina.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8278 - November 07, 2019, 04:23 PM

    Ian David Morris - Mecca and Macoraba

     

    Quote
    Claudius Ptolemy’s second-century Geography places the name Macoraba in the west of the Arabian Peninsula. There is a consensus in Orientalist scholarship that Macoraba is Mecca, and to a lesser extent that the name derives from an Ancient South Arabian word for “temple.” This paper traces the identification of Macoraba as Mecca back to Samuel Bochart in 1646 and assesses the changing interpretations of Macoraba since then. It concludes that no satisfactory derivation has been proposed to explain the difference between the names Mecca and Macoraba,and argues that the consensus should now be abandoned or more rigorously defended.


    As he know that it is untenable that is why he proposes to defend it Wink
    It is because he thinks that "that the consensus should now be abandoned".
    Gallez make a big point about the etymology of Macoraba as Mecca.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8279 - November 07, 2019, 04:42 PM

    Altara - would you see the association of al-Zubayr with Mecca as historical?
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