Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


Qur'anic studies today
April 23, 2024, 06:50 AM

Do humans have needed kno...
April 20, 2024, 12:02 PM

Lights on the way
by akay
April 19, 2024, 04:40 PM

اضواء على الطريق ....... ...
by akay
April 19, 2024, 12:50 PM

Do humans have needed kno...
April 19, 2024, 04:17 AM

What's happened to the fo...
by zeca
April 18, 2024, 06:39 PM

New Britain
April 18, 2024, 05:41 PM

Iran launches drones
April 13, 2024, 09:56 PM

عيد مبارك للجميع! ^_^
by akay
April 12, 2024, 04:01 PM

Eid-Al-Fitr
by akay
April 12, 2024, 12:06 PM

Mock Them and Move on., ...
January 30, 2024, 10:44 AM

Pro Israel or Pro Palesti...
January 29, 2024, 01:53 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

 (Read 1277526 times)
  • Previous page 1 ... 268 269 270271 272 ... 368 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8070 - October 24, 2019, 07:04 PM

    Yeez,

    The Western Roman empire stretch all the way up the Belgium where a mix of Germanic and Celtic tribes lived. Probably the Germanic tribes were in the majority. So that is quite similar with the ME situation. Arabs lived on both sides of the limes.

    Zeca,

    Army from the Hijaz:

    We all know that Mecca is a later construct. Why is an army coming from the Hijaz of any relevance?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8071 - October 24, 2019, 07:06 PM

    I suppose it’s conceivable to have a small force going off to join a revolt that is already ongoing. Anything much larger is hard to imagine.

    Yes, I see rather this in the not barren East coast under Iraq.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8072 - October 24, 2019, 07:20 PM

    Population decline in the Roman empire:

    Quote
    Natalist policies[edit]
    The diffusion of Christianity in the Empire caused some social changes within the aristocratic families. In several wealthy families, daughters were obliged to take religious vows and never marry, so that the family wealth would not be dispersed in dowries. Majorian thought that this behaviour was harmful to the State, because it reduced the number of Roman children, and because it caused the girls to start illicit affairs. On October 26, 458, the Emperor addressed a law, the Novella Maioriani 6, to the Praetorian prefect of Italy, Caecina Decius Basilius.[41]

    This law, titled De sanctimonialibus vel viduis et de successionibus earum ("Holy Maidens, Widows, and Their Succession"), imposed a minimum age of 40 for taking religious vows, considering that at this age the sexual drives of the initiated would be dormant. The law also granted women who had been forced to take religious vows, and were subsequently disinherited, the same rights on the legacy of parents as their brothers and sisters.[41]

    In order to solve this same problem of the decline of the Roman population, in particular compared with the growth of the barbarians allocated within the imperial boundaries, Majorian addressed the problem of young women widowed and without children who never remarried because of the influence of the clergy, to whom they destined their goods in their will.[42] The young widows were prohibited from taking religious vows.[42]

    By the same measure, departing in this from the policy of the Eastern Empire, Majorian insisted that a marriage without dowry and pre-wedding exchange of gifts (first from the bride's family to the groom, then in the opposite direction) was invalid; he simultaneously ended the practice of requesting pre-wedding gifts of a value considerably higher than the dowry.[43]


    Maybe there was a different fertility in the Roman heartland versus the periphery. That is not very surprising because that is something we see today too.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8073 - October 24, 2019, 07:25 PM

    Yeez,

    The Western Roman empire stretch all the way up the Belgium where a mix of Germanic and Celtic tribes lived. Probably the Germanic tribes were in the majority...................


    So what??,  Roman empire stretched lot more area than you mentioned all the way to Present England.. here is well known empire map



    what all you are saying is.,  important towns of the countries  of that time were occupied by Romans  or Romans build their own garrison towns wherever they went for their army, That is different from   saying "local population becoming Romans and following Roman political economical cultural and religious rules "..... unlike Islam  the faith ., faith  converts, faith followers ....


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8074 - October 24, 2019, 07:51 PM

    Army from the Hijaz:

    We all know that Mecca is a later construct. Why is an army coming from the Hijaz of any relevance?


    Only in terms of testing the hypothesis of conquests originating from the Hijaz. Which is, after all, still the mainstream view.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8075 - October 24, 2019, 08:07 PM

    Zeca,

    On Mecca:
    Yes, of course. But what is your view? I wrote that line down provocatively Smiley... Out of the answer I deduce that you too are doubting very much? Have you crossed the Rubicon?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8076 - October 24, 2019, 08:18 PM

    I don’t think I ever considered the idea of Muhammad in Mecca as likely to be historical. I suppose I’ve moved away from the idea of Medina being a plausible candidate for the original proto-Islamic polity (which might be something like the view of Fred Donner and others). Beyond that I don’t feel a lot of certainty, and I’m not sure how far it’s possible to establish some kind of true account of Islamic origins.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8077 - October 24, 2019, 08:26 PM

    Medina,

    Indeed, a lot of scholars who have dumped Mecca, retain Medina . The problem of the army you sketched remains for Medina. If Medina played a role, it cannot have been the sole proto-muslim  home base I guess.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8078 - October 24, 2019, 08:56 PM

    Emran El-Badawi - From clerical to scriptural authority: The Qur’an’s dialogue with the Syriac New Testament

    https://www.academia.edu/40492706/From_clerical_to_scriptural_authority_The_Qur_an_s_dialogue_with_the_Syriac_New_Testament

    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/emrane/status/1187400245312921600
    Quote
    When the Qur'an appeared there were no Muslims. So how do we understand a term like imam? What was its relationship to the authority (sultan) vested in ancient scripture (kitab) and hierarchies of holy men (rahbaniyyah)? We need to go back to the Syriac churches of Arabia...

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8079 - October 24, 2019, 09:43 PM

    Interestingly, there is no "Holy women" as such in the Quran. But, and again Gallez has an interesting insight about it, it is talking of it in a veiled way.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8080 - October 24, 2019, 10:21 PM

    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/MichaelDPress/status/1187381651413852160
    Quote
    IAA announces discovery of a well-preserved Byzantine church in Beit Shemesh, dedicated to an unnamed "glorious martyr".
    Lots to chew on here:

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fEjKNi1naAk
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8081 - October 24, 2019, 10:52 PM

    From Clerical to Scriptural Authority: The Qur’ān’s
    Dialogue with the Syriac New Testament
    EMRAN EL-BADAWI
    Quote
    The Christological controversies of the fourth and fifth century CE gave rise to the three Eastern Churches.


    Yes but those controversies (never) question that Jesus is the Son of God and the second hypostase of the Trinity. Therefore someone outside the stuff could believe that those points are questioned by one or the other and that it is this reason which is the cause of the emergence of the three Eastern Churches after 451.
    At all.

    Quote
    Other Arabic-speaking groups, such as those in the Qur’ān’s milieu, shared an affinity with the “Jewish-Christian” community of the early Church.

    Which one? Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8082 - October 25, 2019, 06:29 AM

    Altara,

    Why can't the Quranic author have come up all by himself to question the trinity? Why must this have been an idea already circulating?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8083 - October 25, 2019, 07:27 AM

    Quote
    Why can't the Quranic author have come up all by himself to question the trinity?


    Especially in the 6/7th c.
    Quote
    Why must this have been an idea already circulating?


    Idea which is a later elaboration of Christians, who attempt to respond to the question: who is Jesus? Why is it come up in the 6/7th c., whereas it is settled since ages?

    Interesting questions.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8084 - October 25, 2019, 07:58 AM

    Altara,

    Van Sivers shows the question is not settled. The Christological issues are floating around full fledge.

    With the take over in 614 of Jerusalem by the Persians, there is a complete mix-up of different denominations. The Persian armies were composed of Zaroastrians Jews and Arabs. These Arabs were Christians of different "kinds". Is it so difficult to imagine that in the religious blender of such a campaign, new ideas emerged? The Jewish influence alone would have been enough to set off the question of the divinity of Jesus again. Keeping Jesus but letting go of his divine status would be a logical soup coming out of the cooking exercise, no?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8085 - October 25, 2019, 08:47 AM

    Altara,

    Van Sivers shows the question is not settled. The Christological issues are floating around full fledge.

    With the take over in 614 of Jerusalem by the Persians, there is a complete mix-up of different denominations. The Persian armies were composed of Zaroastrians Jews and Arabs. These Arabs were Christians of different "kinds". Is it so difficult to imagine that in the religious blender of such a campaign, new ideas emerged? The Jewish influence alone would have been enough to set off the question of the divinity of Jesus again. Keeping Jesus but letting go of his divine status would be a logical soup coming out of the cooking exercise, no?

    What new Idea/s??   What new Idea/s are  you thinking dear mundi?  When you have freedom to Question, freedom to think,  freedom to express ..new ideas emerge all the time in human brain dear rmundi.......

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8086 - October 25, 2019, 09:09 AM

    Interestingly, there is no "Holy women" as such in the Quran. But, and again Gallez has an interesting insight about it, it is talking of it in a veiled way.




    I wonder is there any English version of that book dear Altara?

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8087 - October 25, 2019, 09:37 AM

    Altara,

     
    Yes
    Quote
    Van Sivers shows the question is not settled. The Christological issues are floating around full fledge.

    Yes but those controversies (never) question that Jesus is the Son of God and the second hypostase of the Trinity which the case of the Quran Wink

    Quote
    With the take over in 614 of Jerusalem by the Persians, there is a complete mix-up of different denominations. The Persian armies were composed of Zaroastrians Jews and Arabs. These Arabs were Christians of different "kinds". Is it so difficult to imagine that in the religious blender of such a campaign, new ideas emerged?

     

    Possibly, yes. There is other explications.
    Quote
    The Jewish influence alone would have been enough to set off the question of the divinity of Jesus again. Keeping Jesus but letting go of his divine status would be a logical soup coming out of the cooking exercise, no?


    How do you explain the anti Jewish stance in the Quran then? Wink


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8088 - October 25, 2019, 09:48 AM

    Quote
    How do you explain the anti Jewish stance in the Quran then


    It's not bc you get ideas from a certain group or you have been connected with it, that you can't hate each other. Look at the Catholic persecution by the Anglicans. Numerous examples of close ideologies hating each other just bc they form severe competition.

    The Dutch government pirates of 17th C, when capturing a Spanish ship, drowned the Catholics and freed the Muslims. The closeness of religion made them hate their co-christians more than the further off religion. There is a logic.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8089 - October 25, 2019, 10:47 AM

    Quote
    Look at the Catholic persecution by the Anglicans.


    For me it is not (at all) the same situation. On the surface, yes. But only the surface...
    Quote
    The Dutch government pirates of 17th C, when capturing a Spanish ship, drowned the Catholics and freed the Muslims. The closeness of religion made them hate their co-christians more than the further off religion. There is a logic.


    It is normal that they kill Catholics. Even if they believed more or less the same thing. The killing has nothing to do with belief but with the persecution suffered.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8090 - October 25, 2019, 10:52 AM

    (Clicky for piccy!)

    I wonder is there any English version of that book dear Altara?


    There will be soon (1 to 3 months)  a digest in English by Odon Lafontaine. I'll put a link here.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8091 - October 25, 2019, 12:28 PM

    Quote
    The killing has nothing to do with belief but with the persecution suffered.


    That is a ridiculous statement. As if killing is always a retribution for past wrongs. For this example, there was  no real civil war btw Catholics and Protestants in Holland. There was an independence war against Spain, accompanied by the dominance of Protestantism. Plenty of Dutch remained Catholic. It was not a religious war.

    But both denominations remained competitors. And that is my point. It is not bc ideologies are close, one is automatically friends.

    Just as having incorporated Jewish elements in proto-Islam doesn't mean Jews and proto-muslims were automatically on good terms. History shows contrary.

    "Love your neighbor" seems to be a difficult one.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8092 - October 25, 2019, 12:59 PM

    ....................."Love your neighbor" seems to be a difficult one......................

    ...
    woh .. Hmm., ..............it is NOT just difficult one BUT THE MOST DIFFICULT ONE......., It is not only to those who do not about that statement but it is equally difficult to those who preach that every day.. day in day out dear mundi., So who said that? why did he/she say that??  what does Quran say on that and what does bible say on that dear mundi..  teach me... teach me...

    as far as this is concerned
    That is a ridiculous statement. As if killing is always a retribution for past wrongs. For this example, there was  no real civil war btw Catholics and Protestants in Holland. There was an independence war against Spain, accompanied by the dominance of Protestantism. Plenty of Dutch remained Catholic. It was not a religious war..................

    well it is quest for  power .. Power corrupts and unquestionable absolute power corrupts absolutely., and if you have  god said this  or  BIG DOG SAID THAT in support of  quest of power .. then  you can kill anything and everything ..do anything without using any of that brain human being has......

     with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8093 - October 25, 2019, 01:05 PM

    Quote
    Power corrupts and unquestionable absolute power corrupts absolutely., and if you have  god said this  or  BIG DOG SAID THAT in support of  quest of power .. then  you can kill anything and everything ..do anything without using any of that brain human being has..


    Right Yeez. Who gets killed by who is due to circumstances and bad luck. Seldom it is pay back or imminent justice.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8094 - October 25, 2019, 01:09 PM

    There will be soon (1 to 3 months)  a digest in English by Odon Lafontaine. I'll put a link here.


    Does he not speak/write in English??  He is good his work should be translated in to different languages., specially English and Arabic  

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBBq-Mu_sbE

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8095 - October 25, 2019, 01:10 PM

    Right Yeez. Who gets killed by who is due to circumstances and bad luck. Seldom it is pay back or imminent justice.

    I may be right but  YOU ARE CLEARLY WRONG dear  mundi., unless you are trying to heckle me.. Cheesy

     do you speak.. write in French??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8096 - October 25, 2019, 01:18 PM

     Codicology of old Koranic Mss and suspected manipulations to the text: table and examples Edouard M Gallez


    that is a very important work from him., I was trying to suggest to dear mundi to do something similar in that direction so it will help people like me....

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8097 - October 25, 2019, 01:23 PM

    Does he not speak/write in English??  He is good his work should be translated in to different languages., specially English and Arabic  

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBBq-Mu_sbE


    Err... Odon Lafontaine is this guy : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhOQLxr9QA8
    Your guy is Pierre Lory a scholar. Odon is the digest guy of Gallez.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8098 - October 25, 2019, 01:26 PM

    Err... Odon Lafontaine is this guy : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhOQLxr9QA8
    Your guy is Pierre Lory a scholar. Odon is the digest guy of Gallez.

    oh really  stupid me.. YOU FRENCH GUYS ARE NERDS .. that is the reason why English became popular around the globe,, Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy  so does he not speak/write in English??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8099 - October 25, 2019, 02:26 PM

    Quote
    so does he not speak/write in English??

    English is French (very) bad pronounced Wink
  • Previous page 1 ... 268 269 270271 272 ... 368 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »