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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7710 - October 01, 2019, 05:41 PM

    Hahaha! Sure Wink Nobody goes against that...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7711 - October 01, 2019, 05:44 PM

    I meant that the 7th C never got written.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7712 - October 01, 2019, 07:18 PM

    Yes I got  it.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7713 - October 01, 2019, 11:46 PM


    I have this (last) view since almost two years now, and nothing has come to refute it, even Marc ("I did not say this" TM).



    You sound like Odon Lafontaine who says the same thing as you :

    - Gallez thesis hasn"t been disproved so far (same as your "nothing has come to refute it")
    - Gallez thesis is the only one that explain the history of Islam  (same as your "it is a logical deduction and my deduction is FACT, you deduction is crap"   Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy )

    Writing the early history of Islam is mostly giving one's opinion ; in front of the same facts, 2 different people would come to 2 different interpretations. However, a lot has been done reagrding unearthing the true early history of Islam and it shouldn't be discarded.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7714 - October 02, 2019, 01:21 AM

    Quote
    You sound like Odon Lafontaine who says the same thing as you :


    Well... I'm not a spokesperson for someone else... Am I?

    Quote
    Gallez thesis hasn"t been disproved so far(same as your "nothing has come to refute it")


    1/You do not understand : "I have this (last) view since almost two years now, and nothing has come to refute it".
    I (just) meant that in what I have read (in academia, books etc) nothing has come (new sources, ideas, discoveries, etc) that could refute the (provisional) conclusion I have now.
    2/Articles have been written which disprove the affirmation on which Gallez thesis is built : he says that the Quran refers not to Christians with the word "nasara".
    He is wrong."nasara" refers to Christians.  As Gallez do not respond (to these articles...) Lafontaine (an amateur like you)  build a real labyrinth to respond to Griffith, Jullien, Brelaud, De bié, etc.,  and he says that one does not understand the Gallez thesis. Wink (Like Muslim says that one does understand the Quran, it it the same thing...)
    One does understand it very well:
    The affirmation of Gallez (tome 1, p.281, n. 480 and 481) proves that he has not understood that this appellation after the 4th c.comes  not from Christians themselves but from officials Persians, and that it is a pejorative appellation. One does not care how Christians were naming themselves, they were naming like this by others Wink Because he says (481) : " but in Persia it had probably been almost three centuries since the Christians in Persia had in turn abandoned the denomination of nasrayé. "
    But not the Persians Edouard!!! It is the Persians who continued to name them like that!  Wink one knows very well that they were calling themselves krîstyānâ/ê or mshīḥayyê. The Persians were the rulers, they named people like they wanted to name them!
    And who is in Iraq with the Christians as the most nearest collaborators of the Persians? Japanese, Aliens?
    Arabs.
    The main concept of his thesis on which all is build does not work.
    Gallez thesis is disproved.


    Quote
    Gallez thesis is the only one that explain the history of Islam


    It is the most complete landscape. One can do better, without an idealogical bias and idiosyncrasies.
    Quote
    Writing the early history of Islam is mostly giving one's opinion  

    It is the view of someone (you) who is an amateur. Like Odon Lafontaine.

    Quote
    in front of the same facts, 2 different people would come to 2 different interpretations.


     It depends on many factors ; then, maybe not Wink

    Quote
    However, a lot has been done reagrding unearthing the true early history of Islam and it shouldn't be discarded.


    I'm not really sure of that. But, these last two years some works (articles, etc) have allowed me to progress considerably in my thesis Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7715 - October 02, 2019, 04:55 AM

    Altara,

    Why is writing your article so much work? Gallez has done most of the research already and you have his books...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7716 - October 02, 2019, 10:44 AM

    Quote
    Why is writing your article so much work?


    Because it is not an article.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7717 - October 02, 2019, 12:48 PM

    ...................... my deduction is FACT, you deduction is crap"   Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy )..................,   says Marcu...S

    hello Marc., You are deduction may be fact   but  let us not make that as god word.. bible or allah word quran.,    let us keep those deductions open for questioning

    .....
    .................However, a lot has been done regarding(??) (( REGRADING)) unearthing the true early history of Islam and it shouldn't be discarded. .......................

      what lot has been done??  where is it  links please.,

     may be REGRADING  Islamic history is a better word than that word  "regarding"

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7718 - October 02, 2019, 12:51 PM

    Altara,

    Why is writing your article so much work? Gallez has done most of the research already and you have his books...

    very simple ..   IT IS A PROBLEM OF SHARKS AND SCAVENGERS.,   well that is bread and butter question for those who work in the field.,  for that   writing books makes more sense than writing articles., but THEY HAVE TO GO SIDE BY SIDE., in other words  book must be ready for publication before the articles are sent for publication

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7719 - October 02, 2019, 08:23 PM

    .It is the view of someone (you) who is an amateur. Like Odon Lafontaine.


    When someone think His opinion, that he calls  logical deduction as  has no fact nor argument, is a fact then he is himself the amateur. Unless there are some archeological finds (a lost chronicle of the years 600-650 explaining from the inside for example how Mu'Awiya came to rule all Arabs for example), people will fill the blanks of history with their own interpretation because we are missing history materials.

    Quote
    I'm not really sure of that. But, these last two years some works (articles, etc) have allowed me to progress considerably in my thesis Wink


    Odon Lafontaine also says the same about the Gallez thesis, that the last years have uncovered stuff that do valid his thesis. That is the result of being driven by ideology like you.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7720 - October 02, 2019, 08:28 PM

    ...................... my deduction is FACT, you deduction is crap"   Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy )..................,   says Marcu...S


    I am just quoting Altara here and not my own opinion.

    Quote
      what lot has been done??  where is it  links please.,


    Links are all over this topic dear Yeezevee. Even people with a wrong thesis can still bring something to the field of early Islam. For example, Gibson is wrong regarding his Petra assumption but he demonstrated that the Mecca described in muslim books is not the current Mecca.


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7721 - October 02, 2019, 09:47 PM

    When someone think His opinion, that he labels logical deduction as an argument as he has no fact, is a fact then he is himself the amateur.


    At all. In history scholarship a logical deduction from sources which have been criticized  is  generally granted.
    As you have never criticized  any source you brought here, i.e you believe what Sebeos says, you believe what John and the Amir says, it is what characterizes you as an amateur who fools the people of this forum.
    You're incompetent in this field. As I am one in yours.. The only difference is I am not in the forum where you are competent, starting to make believe that I am whereas I am an amateur. And as I've no more ideas in the field, started  to change the subject by doing epistemology.
    You run out of ideas about this field. I've read carefully and responded (at length) to each idea you brought. You lack (basic) training and, more importantly, you're not clearly lucid about this.You do not even realize it. You believe that anyone can deal with this field, that anyone is capable to challenge the more trained folks.

    It's bullshit.

     
    Quote
    Unless there are some archeological finds (a lost chronicle of the years 600-650 expalining from the inside for example how Mu'Awiya came to rule all Arabs for example), people will fill the blanks of history with their own interpretation because we are missing history materials.


    "with their own interpretation". People like you, surely. Trained folks surely not. They will make logical deduction with the material they have criticized. It is the basic job of scholarship.

    Quote
    Odon Lafontaine also says the same about the Gallez thesis that the last years have uncovered stuff that do valid his thesis

    ,

    The issue is that he does not say what has been the " uncovered stuff that do valid his thesis." I'm rather curious about that and wait his last edition of his "Great secret of Islam" (English version will be available) Wink I'm pretty sure that nothing new will come out Wink And if there is one it may be easily refutable. Like I did with you.
    Nothing has been uncovered to validate the judeonazarean thesis of Gallez. It is rather the contrary (see above...)
    Like Gibson, Lafontaine is incapable to respond to basic questions about what develop the articles of Griffith, Jullien sisters, Brelaud, etc.which establishes that nasara is an Arab calque of Nasrayé which is a pejorative name for Iraqi Christians given by the Persians who lived besides Arabs since ages in Iraq.

    Quote
    For example, Gibson he demonstrated that the in muslim books is not the current Mecca.

    It is Petra. Gibson is right on this. Question is, why muslim books described for Mecca Petra Wink The response is rather simple.
    Quote
    That is the result of being driven by ideology like you.


    The ideology to criticize the sources, meaning, to be trained. Which is not your case.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7722 - October 03, 2019, 08:13 AM

    I am just quoting  heckling Altara here and not my own opinion.

    I know you are heckling Altara  dear Marc ... mutli laugh emoticon ...  I am just saying "every deduction is unsatisfactory and questionable"  and that goes to you ,,Gallez,,, and many others even to late Patricia crone
    Quote
    Links are all over this topic dear Yeezevee. Even people with a wrong thesis can still bring something to the field of early Islam. For example, Gibson is wrong regarding his Petra assumption but he demonstrated that the Mecca described in muslim books is not the current Mecca.

    Maec you have posted some 500 posts are so   .. can you write one post  on Prophet of Islam and his life ??  his parents .. his wives.. his kids.. his wars and his death.....  starting with  his name before he became Prophet??

    please post that at  https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22184.0   
    or at  https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=16106.0

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7723 - October 03, 2019, 09:58 AM

    https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/science-environment-49424036
    Quote
    The rock-strewn deserts of Al Ula in Saudi Arabia are known for their pitch-black skies, which allow stargazers to easily study celestial bodies without the problem of light pollution.

    But the region is becoming even more attractive for archaeologists.

    A long-lost culture known as the Nabataean civilisation inhabited the area starting from around 100 BC and persisted for some 200 years.

    While the Nabataeans ruled their empire from the stunning city of Petra in Jordan, they made Hegra (the modern Mada'in Saleh) in Al Ula their second capital.

    Now, archaeologists are planning to carry out the first in-depth survey of a chunk of land here that's roughly the size of Belgium.

    The large international team of more than 60 experts has started work on an initial, two-year project to survey the core area of 3,300 sq km in north-western Saudi Arabia.

    This is the first time such a large area of more or less scientifically-uncharted territory has been systematically investigated.

    Excavations have been carried out in and around Mada'in Saleh and other recognised Nabataean sites for some time by a group of Saudi archaeologists including Abdulrahman Alsuhaibani, a lecturer at the King Saud University in Riyadh.

    "I have focused on the earlier Dedanite and Lihyanite civilisations," he explains. "Now that the Royal Commission for Al Ula is involved there will be greater scope for deeper understanding of how early societies evolved."

    The involvement of the Royal Commission ensures that cutting-edge technology is at the disposal of archaeologists experienced in the field.

    While Google Earth and the trained eye can often distinguish natural and man-made features, it is light aircraft equipped with specialist cameras that offer the most detailed imagery of the territory - which includes the Al Ula wadi and its feeder valleys. This can capture hitherto unknown archaeological features.

    According to Rebecca Foote, the American archaeologist in charge of the survey for the Royal Commission for Al Ula, previous efforts have concentrated on excavation, because a systematic survey on this scale requires time and resources that are only now available.

    She believes that the scope of the undertaking will put Saudi Arabia on the ancient history map.

    "A great deal is known about the first to third millennium BC and we're well informed about ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia," she acknowledges.

    "Yet comparatively little about the Arabian peninsula in ancient times has been discovered. Exactly how our findings will impact on understanding of ancient history we don't yet know. But it is likely to reshape the world view of earlier periods."

    Foote spent many years working in Petra, the ancient city in Jordan that remains the best known monument left by the Nabataean civilisation. She says aerial archaeology will be key to exploring the culture's funerary architecture, standing stones and more unusual sites that would otherwise take years to investigate.

    "The technology now provides a reliable and comprehensive overview," she explains. "Nothing like this has been done before on this scale."

    While earlier French-led excavations revealed a loosely-controlled incense trading network running up the western side of Arabia and passing through Al Ula, Rebecca Foote is keen to build on this and learn more about the role water played in the area's prosperity.

    She comments: "We can guess that they had a successful agricultural economy, but was there a tax on incense? How did they manage their water?"

    With the hydrology study about to start, answers should begin to come in thanks in part to the work of the aerial archaeology team, which helps pinpoint specific locations.

    Flying at between two and three thousand feet, the integrated survey group led by Oxford Archaeology's Jamie Quartermaine has already covered half the anticipated 11,500 sites. Often known as preventative surveys, this work is usually carried out to ensure that no future building work will come near archaeological sites.

    "We've learned from the mistakes of other countries and we're taking the time to prevent any damage here," he says. "Being accessible to the general public, as is planned for the future, doesn't mean a free-for all."

    The survey also helps provide answers for specialists in fields such as rock art. "Even five years ago GPS just wasn't accurate enough," Jamie Quartermaine explains. "Today we are using several different methods of photography including drones, camera's suspended below the body of light aircraft and cutting edge aerial orpho-photography."

    Providing an adjusted image every two to three seconds, the thousands of pictures measure true distances - having been adjusted for topographic relief. Specialist software combines these into a high resolution, detailed model of the landscape.

    The cameras are set at a 45-degree angle and so far have found burial sites, Bronze Age funerary landscapes and burial structures. Additionally, drones are used with cameras set at the same angle. "This allows us to view not only the horizontal plane, but to some extent the vertical," he continues. "We're forewarned as to the likelihood of finding rock art in particular locations."

    The final stage of the survey sends specialist team members, such as rock art expert Maria Guagnin, out into the field on foot. Having spent five years in northern Arabia, Maria is impressed by the huge database being created that covers all periods.

    "For the first time, we're looking at every aspect of the archaeological landscape," she points out. "Our knowledge of the prehistoric distribution of animal species is so far largely dependent on the location of excavated archaeological and palaeontological sites.

    "Many species have been assumed to have been absent from the Arabian peninsula, but rock art panels have shown otherwise."

    The presence of previously undocumented mammal species in Al Ula provides new information regarding their distribution, as well as the types of habitat and vegetation that were available in prehistoric landscapes.

    Animal depictions also help with dating. It is considered unlikely, for example, that horses or camels with riders existed before 1,200 BC.

    Domesticated cattle, sheep and goats were introduced to the Arabian peninsula between 6,800 and 6,200 BC. They were domesticated in the Levant and brought to Saudi Arabia. That provides a way of dating rock art, because prior to that date it's unlikely domesticated animals were in the area.

    The vast amount of information being collated by the Al Ula international team is likely to be of use to sites such as Petra, including revealing likely routes between Petra and Mada'in Saleh (Hegra).

    Abdulrahman Alsuhaibani has been excavating for some years at Dedan, a site holding evidence of a civilisation that pre-dates the Nabataeans. He says the scope of the work is such that it will take generations to get to grips with the results: "What makes this work so important on the world stage is that it will provide an account of not just Mada'in Saleh and Petra but earlier civilisations that are largely unknown to us."

    One of Abdulrahman's roles is training students from the King Saud University in Riyadh, which has a small outpost in Al Ula.

    "They are learning in the context of one of the most extensive surveys and subsequent excavations," he says. "Today's students may well make discoveries that we can't even imagine today."

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7724 - October 03, 2019, 11:11 AM

    I know you are heckling Altara  dear Marc ... mutli laugh emoticon ...  I am just saying "every deduction is unsatisfactory and questionable"  and that goes to you ,,Gallez,,, and many others even to late Patricia crone Maec you have posted some 500 posts are so   .. can you write one post  on Prophet of Islam and his life ??  his parents .. his wives.. his kids.. his wars and his death.....  starting with  his name before he became Prophet??

    please post that at  https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22184.0   
    or at  https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=16106.0


    Dear Yeezevee I have for example mentionned that the question of the interpretation of the calendar showing up on "early Islam" coins should be questionned and a specific focus for example ; but it is not the primary interest on this forum so.............................

    Even if there was an historical figure, be it a king, a preacher, as the source of the Muhammad concept, the whole person as described by muslim litterature does include many living (at the time) persons as well as past prophets so you cannot sort out the truth and the myth from what you arer asking.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7725 - October 03, 2019, 11:26 AM

    At all. In history scholarship a logical deduction from sources which have been criticized  is  generally granted.
    As you have never criticized  any source you brought here, i.e you believe what Sebeos says, you believe what John and the Amir says, it is what characterizes you as an amateur who fools the people of this forum.


    The issue you have is not my criticism of the sources (I will repeat that if I was believing Sebeos as you claim, I wouldn't question his writings on Muhammad as a true living person) but the fact I don't agree with you for a specific topic he mentions.

    You turn not agreeing with you as being not trained but, if I take Sebeos alone, many scholars do take him for being quite reliable  ; would you say they are not trained ? Truth is, and that goes into many fields, interpretation plays a huge role when source materials is whether scarce, cannot be crossed checked or is not so clear ; I am just stating a basic truth that you haven't noticed so far. Your logical deduction is just "un argument d'autorité" that has ZERO scholarship value though you might be right but you cannot prove it.

    Quote
    The ideology to criticize the sources, meaning, to be trained. Which is not your case.


    No you have an ideology like many people in this field that prevent you to see basic things, like your interpretation of John and the Amir.


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7726 - October 03, 2019, 11:45 AM

    Dear Yeezevee I have for example mentionned that the question of the interpretation of the calendar showing up on "early Islam" coins should be questionned and a specific focus for example ; but it is not the primary interest on this forum so.............................


    No..No..nooooo.,   your work is important and also interest to the readers of this forum  so please give some links...

    But dear Marc I fully understand your problem as I am dealing with Prophet of Islam since the age of 12 or so before even I read Quran .,  Even as   little kid in a mixed Shia family I used to sit on  wooden horse with a little sword around my waist pretending as Imam Husayn ibn Ali ...  

    So  My problem with Islam is  NOT stories of Islam that one reads from hadith/sunnah  or that Muḥammad ibn Isḥāq ibn Yasār ibn Khiyār stories on Prophet of Islam .. I mean that book Sirat Rasullah which translated by Guillaume... or stories from Mullahs of Islam that preach in Mosques and Madrassas

    My problem with Islamic literature history is  with Fools in the western  Universities as faculties writing repeating regurgitating same stories from hadith and sunnah ... they take one word from Quran write a 20 pages paper on it...

    Quote
    Even if there was an historical figure, be it a king, a preacher, as the source of the Muhammad concept, the whole person as described by muslim litterature does include many living (at the time) persons as well as past prophets so you cannot sort out the truth and the myth from what you arer asking.

     I don't get it ? I deleted the words that are irrelevant to Muhammad's time
     what are you trying to say Marc?
     why get Past Prophets in to Islamic history?
     Islam's history should begin with Prophet of Islam  THAT TOO WHEN HE WAS 40 YEAR OLD GUY ..

    Are you trying to say something on 'The source of Muhammad"  or "source of Muhammad's concept" and you are failing.. is that what you want to say?

     What is Muhammad's concept ? So what whole person as described by muslim literature does include many living   persons  of that time ..

    Anyways ..can you name few people from Islamic literature on "THE NAMES OF LIVING PERSONS OF THAT TIME?? during Prophet of Islam's time .... also links on that please

    with best regards
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7727 - October 03, 2019, 02:19 PM


     I don't get it ? I deleted the words that are irrelevant to Muhammad's time
     what are you trying to say Marc?
     why get Past Prophets in to Islamic history?



    Let me clarify : I believe that the prophet figure was built by :

    - taking things from living persons at the time i.e. the Aisha story must have derived from a caliph who wanted to have sexual relationship with under-age girls,

    - traits of Jewish prophets were also used to build that prophetic figure of Muhammad  ; the healing performed on one of his companion who had his eye popping out of his socket at the battle of Uhud looks like Jesus' healings abilities (though at the same battle, Muhammad was unable to heal his own forehead wound  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7728 - October 03, 2019, 02:39 PM

    glad to see that Marc's post .. let me put as bullet points   
    Let me clarify : I believe that the prophet figure was built by :

    1),  - taking things from living persons at the time ........  i.e. the Aisha story must have derived from a caliph who wanted to have sexual relationship with under-age girls,

    2).  - traits of Jewish prophets were also used to build that prophetic figure of Muhammad  ;

    3).  the healing performed on one of his companion who had his eye popping out of his socket at the battle of Uhud looks like Jesus' healing abilities (though at the same battle, Muhammad was unable to heal his own forehead wound  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy)


    but but none of those three points are there in Quran.,   ..As far as stories of OT Prophet and Jesus Christ are concerned ., they are just  mentioned in Quran as a conversational stories for the new faith followers  to make Islam as IDEAL monotheistic religious ideology and to erase idolatry fo pagans  from Arabian peninsula  ..   correct me if I am wrong ..

    and I asked couple of questions let me put them again

    Quote
    1).  What is Muhammad's concept ? So what whole person as described by muslim literature does include many living   persons  of that time ..

    2). Anyways ..can you name few people from Islamic literature on "THE NAMES OF LIVING PERSONS OF THAT TIME?? during Prophet of Islam's time .... also links on that please

    on that 2nd point you came with Aisha .....  You think Aisha was real person??   why can't it be a story as Muhammad itself is a story?? did you read through hadith sayings that are related to Aisha??

    My other point is .. you two guys.. you & Altara....

    It appears both of you have similar hypothesis as far as  "Muhammad" the prophet of Islam is concerned  .. You too have strong opinion that the Muhammad of Islam is NOT real person but a  character created by those in power in the early Islamic period...   

    did I get that right ?  if I did you two have same opinion on the history of Islam w.r.t Muhammad  The Prophet of Islam


    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7729 - October 03, 2019, 05:46 PM

    The issue you have is not my criticism of the sources

    Yet it is (yawn...)

    Quote
    (I will repeat that if I was believing Sebeos as you claim, I wouldn't question his writings on Muhammad as a true living person) but the fact I don't agree with you for a specific topic he mentions.


    Therefore you believe it. You do not  swallow Sebeos' Muhammad, you swallow the rest without criticizing it. Same for John and the Amir.

    Quote
    You turn not agreeing with you as being not trained but, if I take Sebeos alone, many scholars do take him for being quite reliable ; would you say they are not trained ?


    Anglo Saxon scholars are mainly trained (at least) in University.
    The training they receive is (still) another topic. Quranic studies and Early Islam are the sole studies (to my knowledge...) to have scholars coming from a very far training related directly to the emergence of Islam and the Quran.
    They are Arabic teacher, (Webb, Wansbrough, Anthony, al Jallad), theologian (Reynolds, etc.) Philosopher (Dye, Segovia, etc.) Syriac teacher (Brock, etc.) Semitic languages teacher (Kerr), Priests (Gallez, de Prémare, Gilliot, Griffith)  teacher of "Religion" (what does that mean?) (Pregill, etc).Virgin Mary specialist (Shoemaker), etc.
    There is no other field like this:  And a lot of the trouble comes from there. That is why guys like Gibson et al. feel authorized to intervene.They see the mess and come.But! They (those above) have (at least) a training in University related more or less to "social sciences".
    The way you express you views about our topic here, shows that you do not even have that.

    Quote
    Truth is, and that goes into many fields, interpretation plays a huge role when source materials is whether scarce, cannot be crossed checked or is not so clear ; I am just stating a basic truth that you haven't noticed so far.


     Interpretation may play a role, but not by untrained people.

    Quote
    Your logical deduction is just "un argument d'autorité;" that has ZERO scholarship value though you might be right but you cannot prove it.


    At all. As you run out of arguments to respond to my (numerous) objections to what you have exposed here, you try to make epistemology.

    Quote
    No you have an ideology like many people in this field that prevent you to see basic things, like your interpretation of John and the Amir.


    My ideology is to criticize the sources because I've the knowledge to do it. Like Gibson, you do not have it.




  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7730 - October 03, 2019, 05:52 PM

    Quote
    did I get that right ?  if I did you two have same opinion on the history of Islam w.r.t Muhammad  The Prophet of Islam


    Grosso modo
    yes, in details no. For me There is no " that the prophet figure was built by :
    taking things from living persons at the time "
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7731 - October 03, 2019, 06:14 PM

    Yeez,


    You seem not to be able to let go of your childhood religion. I understand that. It is the case for a lot of people, either consciously or not.

    You are looking for a noble ur-Quran which depicts the 21st C values (Christian values Tom Holland would say) . It is not there. If it ever was it has been lost forever covered with  verses you now reject. We checked these verses with C14 dating. For sure these were there already in 650, probably even earlier.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7732 - October 03, 2019, 06:21 PM

    About Zeca's post on archeology in Al-Ula and Madain Saleh

    Exciting that more will be done althoug a lot is known already.

    What surprises me in those places that no real Christian remains have been found, and also NO EARLY ISLAMIC stuff. To me proof that probably there was not much activity 6-7 C. Most trade routes went by ship and not over the desert anymore?

    That is more proof that Mecca is  not Mecca.

    Altara,

    So surprised that you say Gibson is right on Petra. Why did you change your mind? I'm not convinced. Please explain.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7733 - October 03, 2019, 07:57 PM

    glad to see that Marc's post .. let me put as bullet points   
    but but none of those three points are there in Quran.,


    Description of Muhammad is not based on the Quran but mostly on the ahadith ; anyway, the Quran is distorted by muslim tafseers, regarding its connection with Muhammad according to me.

    Quote
    on that 2nd point you came with Aisha .....  You think Aisha was real person??   


    No I said that I think this story was made up by a caliph who wanted to justify his taste for (very) young girls.

    Quote
    did I get that right ?


    Yes I do think that but that is not the real issue because even people who think Muhammad existed as a real person admit to the fact that his story as told by muslim tradition is mostly legendary. The real question to which people can only give THEIR OPINION is about the fact that a living person did exist as the base from building that figure or not.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7734 - October 03, 2019, 08:07 PM

    Quote
    What surprises me in those places that no real Christian remains have been found, and also NO EARLY ISLAMIC stuff.

    Hegra and Dedan were long time abandoned in the 7th .c

    Quote
    Most trade routes went by ship


    Yes.

    Quote
    So surprised that you say Gibson is right on Petra.


    I thought I was clear! Haha!
    Gibson is right to note that Tabari  to describe Mecca at the time of the "Prophet"  has copied the Petra map.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7735 - October 03, 2019, 08:18 PM


    Yes I do think that but that is not the real issue because even people who think Muhammad existed as a real person admit to the fact that his story as told by muslim tradition is mostly legendary.


    Not for the composition of the Quran.

    Quote
    The real question to which people can only give THEIR OPINION is about the fact that a living person did exist as the base from building that figure or not.

     

    Muhammad has composed the Quran?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7736 - October 03, 2019, 08:42 PM


    At all. As you run out of arguments to respond to my (numerous) objections to what you have exposed here, you try to make epistemology.

    My ideology is to criticize the sources because I've the knowledge to do it. Like Gibson, you do not have it.


     Afro


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7737 - October 03, 2019, 08:44 PM

    Yeez,

    You seem not to be able to let go of your childhood religion. I understand that. It is the case for a lot of people, either consciously or not.

    You are looking for a noble ur-Quran which depicts the 21st C values (Christian values Tom Holland would say) . It is not there. If it ever was it has been lost forever covered with  verses you now reject. We checked these verses with C14 dating. For sure these were there already in 650, probably even earlier.


    hello mundi.. you are a kind man with superb built in intelligence to judge people and their  background  and what they are thinking by reading what they write.....

    Quote
    We checked these verses with C14 dating. For sure these were there already in 650, probably even earlier


    did you forget what I said earlier on that C14 dating??  what probably ? what are the error bars on those C14 dating numbers??

    and and ... dear mundi   go read this  and also write  a post ......something on Prophet of OT & NT and their wives.. ages of their wives etc..etc ....

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7738 - October 03, 2019, 08:45 PM

    Not for the composition of the Quran.


    What do you mean ?

    Quote
    Muhammad has composed the Quran?


    I see no connection to what I said. What do you mean ?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7739 - October 03, 2019, 09:05 PM

    Quote
    even people who think Muhammad existed as a real person 


    All scholars in the field.


    Quote
    admit to the fact that his story as told by muslim tradition is mostly legendary.


    You're wrong. They do think that Muhammad was at the origin of the Quran. Thanks to stop fooling people in this thread Wink

    I repose the question: Muhammad has composed/was at the origin of the Quran?
    Can you elaborate at length on this? Wink
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