Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


Qur'anic studies today
Today at 06:52 PM

Arabs without God - new e...
by zeca
Today at 06:42 PM

Book burning in Norway
by zeca
Today at 06:27 PM

New PM incoming
by zeca
Today at 05:13 PM

NayaPakistan...New Pakist...
Today at 04:18 PM

Iran uprising - is the en...
by zeca
Today at 02:10 PM

Saudi air force member ...
by zeca
Today at 01:47 PM

What music are you listen...
by zeca
Today at 12:49 PM

Anti-imperialism and the ...
by zeca
Today at 12:00 AM

Protests in Iraq
by zeca
Yesterday at 12:11 PM

Tommy Robinson is a refor...
December 06, 2019, 10:44 PM

Erdoğan opens mosque in C...
December 06, 2019, 10:03 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

 (Read 407551 times)
  • Previous page 1 ... 255 256 257258 259 ... 284 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7680 - September 27, 2019, 09:30 PM

    Yeez and Altara,

    I go for logical simple answers too. And yes, I think logic ways of acting/thinking havent changed that much since the 6th C...

    So Yeez, I see your point of suspecting added layers to the Quran to accomodate a situation that differed from the original text (eg texts written in a monastic environment needed to be adapted to the hyper-male-warrior environment). The C14 / oldest manuscripts information shows us, that these layers were added at a very early time (before 650?).

    Yes, Altara, maybe the authors of the Quran decided to add an extra layer on top of the 4 wives one, not for the specific leader, but for an imaginative one. The scribes came together and decided, "lets make the book a bit more attractive and give our imagined leader some extra marital possibilities". When I apply Mundi-Okham, I would just not choose this scenario... I would go for the scenario that a real  leader of that time, wanted to get his hands on some extra women and gave the scribes the order to write something to accommodate him. Things like that have postcedents: eg Henry 8 (no rewriting text, but religious accommodation).
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7681 - September 28, 2019, 11:07 AM

    Quote
    Yes, Altara, maybe the authors of the Quran decided to add an extra layer on top of the 4 wives one, not for the specific leader, but for an imaginative one.


    It seems to me rather normal that the Prophet be treated differently even if he is just a man. The door is narrow as he cannot be other thing than a man.
    Quote
    The scribes came together and decided, "lets make the book a bit more attractive and give our imagined leader some extra marital possibilities".


    See above. If it was later layer, (after 630) the scribes have never known the Prophet, there is no need that he has been invented: they just believe that there was one who is addressed by God in the texts. It is called faith.

    Quote
    When I apply Mundi-Okham, I would just not choose this scenario...


    Because you reflect in the 21st c.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7682 - September 28, 2019, 11:53 AM

    Altara,

    In the Christian world of late antiquity, polygamy and concubinage seems to have been a no go.

    https://books.google.be/books?id=ff1TDwAAQBAJ&lpg=PP1&pg=PA172&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=concubinage&f=false

    So on your comment that I reflect like a 21st C person on the topic, I would disagree. Since Arabs were Christian at the time, polygamy and concubinage must have been at least openly disapproved of.

    So here we have a new ideology trying to convince at least a small group of litterati, already promoting 4 wives and an unlimited amount of sex slaves, upping the attractivity of the new religion by portraying  their ideal man or prophet (real or imaginary) as a man not limited by any rule concerning his appetite.

    Would the 6th-early 7th C Arabs really be impressed by these additional prerogatives for Mohammed? Maybe they were....
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7683 - September 28, 2019, 02:06 PM

    Altara,

    In the Christian world of late antiquity, polygamy and concubinage seems to have been a no go.

    https://books.google.be/books?id=ff1TDwAAQBAJ&lpg=PP1&pg=PA172&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=concubinage&f=false

    So on your comment that I reflect like a 21st C person on the topic, I would disagree. Since Arabs were Christian at the time, polygamy and concubinage must have been at least openly disapproved of.

    So here we have a new ideology trying to convince at least a small group of litterati, already promoting 4 wives and an unlimited amount of sex slaves, upping the attractivity of the new religion by portraying  their ideal man or prophet (real or imaginary) as a man not limited by any rule concerning his appetite.

    Would the 6th-early 7th C Arabs really be impressed by these additional prerogatives for Mohammed? Maybe they were....





    that book is NOT proper representation of the subject you are trying to discuss dear mundi., Moreover it is clearly biased.,

    How can any one compare Caliph with Christ? ...  nonsense .. Which Caliph's personal life  is Weitz  comparing and contrasting   with Christ life?? one should not do that. At best one should compare Christ life with Muhammad's life   EVEN IF THEY ARE CHARACTERS OF STORIES FROM CHRISTIANITY & ISLAM

    Now as far as Christian world and Islamic world is concerned., Islamic world DID NOT come out from sky.It is born right in the middle of Christian -Jewish world ., So ideally one should deal with Christian -Jewish scripture and the people who lived with them...

    Now question to you ., What Is a Concubine? what is polygamy w.r.t OT & NT ??

     Did God of bible (OT&NT) Allow Men to Take Concubines and/or multiple wives or not?

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7684 - September 28, 2019, 02:11 PM

    Yeez and Altara,

    I go for logical simple answers too. And yes, I think logic ways of acting/thinking havent changed that much since the 6th C...

    So Yeez, I see your point of suspecting added layers to the Quran to accomodate a situation that differed from the original text (eg texts written in a monastic environment needed to be adapted to the hyper-male-warrior environment). The C14 / oldest manuscripts information shows us, that these layers were added at a very early time (before 650?).


    that time is very critical and very important parameter .,  what is before 650??  is it year 630?  530?? 430?

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7685 - September 28, 2019, 02:43 PM

    Quote
    Altara,


    Yes,
    Quote
    In the Christian world of late antiquity, polygamy and concubinage seems to have been a no go.


    Of course.
    Quote
    So on your comment that I reflect like a 21st C person on the topic, I would disagree.


    It it yet what you did. And it is normal, history is not your field. Especially history of the Biblical world -300 +700. I have personally many field that I do not know. Surely the one in which you work every day.
    History of the Biblical world -300 + 700 is a very specific field. It incudes peripheral fields which have to be studied carefully. Knowing the Greek,  Roman, Jewish world, and their multiple interactions is mandatory ; it is these worlds which have lead to Christianity.Christianity has to be well known as well. You see, it necessitates (very) much more than one might think to study the Quran, you can add ( good) knowledge of these worlds, perception of mentalities of those people through time to understand why they do or write this or that, why they behave like this or that, etc.
    That is why for me that the Prophet (real or imaginary) be put  above  (and then get some privileges) by scribes who, one way or another did not know him, seems to me normal. I am not (at all) surprised by that.

    Quote
    So here we have a new ideology trying to convince at least a small group of litterati, already promoting 4 wives and an unlimited amount of sex slaves, upping the attractivity of the new religion by portraying  their ideal man or prophet (real or imaginary) as a man not limited by any rule concerning his appetite.


    Yes because he is the Prophet.

    Quote
    Would the 6th-early 7th C Arabs really be impressed by these additional prerogatives for Mohammed? Maybe they were....


    Private Arabs grunts of the 7th c.  even were not aware that there was texts. Only their leaders were aware.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7686 - September 28, 2019, 03:59 PM

    Yeez,

    About the book. I admit I ahven't read it. Sean Anthony has. And he says this:

    Quote
    Concubinage was a big no-no among Xians even of this time. It's interesting to see this shift how it plays out in the Islamic period: https://books.google.com/books?id=ff1TDwAAQBAJ&lpg=PP1&pg=PA172#v=onepage&q=concubinage&f=false


    I believe him as he never shows a pro-Christian bias, contrary... Of course it is a 21 st C bias to assume that a veto on polygamy/concubinage is morally better than allowing both. Clearly 7 th C Muslims thought the principles of polygamy and concubinage were preferable to monogamy. How they made that shift I dont understand. Altara seems to understand but choses not to share.

    Position of OT and NT on the matter? We know that the OT clearly admits both. Proof is that Jewish communities in Europe practiced polygamy enthusiastically deep into Middle ages. Only under influence of Western Christianity and European society did the European Jews end the practice.

    The NT doesnt have an opinion on it. I guess it is the church fathers who developped a preference for official monogamy by reasoning on natural law? Altara? You probably know, do you mind sharing?

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7687 - September 28, 2019, 04:03 PM

    Yeez,

    Quote
    that time is very critical and very important parameter .,  what is before 650??  is it year 630?  530?? 430?


    I think in future we will be able to narrow down the terminus ante quam of the redaction of these controversial verses to 630 maybe? I dont know. Now I would say with quite high probablity that the TAQ is 650.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7688 - September 28, 2019, 04:33 PM

    A lecture (Sept 2019) of Reynolds  (in French) but translatable with the YT device about his article (in French) "«Une exhortation pour les pieux».
    La nature parénétique du Coran" /"An exhortation for the pious." The parenetic nature of the Koran" -with an introduction by Azaiez.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rf7IxFyTXDE&feature=youtu.be
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7689 - September 29, 2019, 01:28 PM

    Altara,

    I watched Reynolds video where he explains that Quran wants to convince people to repent/follow the new religion and thus exaggerates or tells incomplete stories depending on circumstances.

    So could we see the ultra-polygamy prerogatives of Mohammed as a way to convince the potential followers that 4 wives is really ok and not too much? The prophet  (real or not) even had the right to have many more, so what is the problem with 4?

    Is that a reasoning you could support?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7690 - September 29, 2019, 01:55 PM

    Altara,

    I watched Reynolds video where he explains that Quran wants to convince people to repent/follow the new religion and thus exaggerates or tells incomplete stories depending on circumstances.

    If he says that .IT IS RUBBISH ., now one can explain that sorts of interpretation  by saying ."ROGUES OF ISLAM ADDED JUNK TO ORIGINAL QURAN"   which was a very simple message of its time ., It is book of dialogue ., these so-called convincing rules or enforcing rules  that stems from so called layered Quranic verses whether they are political, religious, or for loot booty   are added way after the death of that first preacher whom  it is difficult to pin point who he was...


    Quote
    So could we see the ultra-polygamy prerogatives of  Mohammed as a way to convince the potential followers that 4 wives is really ok and not too much? The prophet  (real or not) even had the right to have many more, so what is the problem with 4?

    Is that a reasoning you could support?

     that was NOT Muhammad way.. that is MUHMMADANIANS WAY ...

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7691 - September 29, 2019, 01:57 PM

    Yeez,

    I think in future we will be able to narrow down the terminus ante quam of the redaction of these controversial verses to 630 maybe? I dont know. Now I would say with quite high probablity that the TAQ is 650.

    Hi mundi.. Ok there are and there will be error bars on those dating experiments ogf any old manuscripts . say it was between 630-650.,    but did it come from That Muhammad?  was he alive during that time?? what does conventional Islam says on his life time??

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7692 - September 29, 2019, 04:28 PM

    Quote
    but did it come from That Muhammad?  was he alive during that time??


    Did the Quran come from Mohammed you ask Yeez?

    I personally dont think so. I think the book is a scribal teams effort and the book had the main quality to exist. The content was not that important imo.

    But was there a real flesh and blood Mohammed (a leader of the Arab community taking over the former Byzantine and Sasanian lands)? A Mohammed for which explicitly extra layers (or extra wives, can we call it that way) were added? Altara thinks he didnt exist. I would like to be convinced but I am still struggling with the layer of extra wives for a spiritual prophet...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7693 - September 29, 2019, 06:53 PM

    Altara,


    Yes,

    Quote
    I watched Reynolds video


    Good. It is a good lecture and hearing it one have always to  remember that the guy who has wrote this :

    The problem with this view is that the mufassirun , even the earliest mufassirun , are unable to understand basic elements of the Qur’an. Two examples might illuminate this point. First is the case of the disconnected letters (Ar. al-ahruf al-muqatta“a or fawati al-suwar) that appear at the opening of 29 Suras .These letters seem to play an important role in the organization
    of the Qur’an. For example, every consonantal form in the Arabic alphabet is represented at least once by these letters, while no form is used for more than one letter.Meanwhile, Suras that begin with the same or similar letters are grouped together, even when that grouping means violating the larger ordering principle of the Qur’an (from longer to shorter Suras ).Yet the
    classical mufassirun do not know any of this. They do not demonstrate any memory of the role these letters played in the Qur’an’s organization. Instead their commentary reflects both confusion and creative speculation.


    is Reynolds. Wink

    Quote
    where he explains that Quran wants to convince people to repent/follow the new religion


    Not a new religion, but what the Quran state Wink

    Quote
    and thus exaggerates or tells incomplete stories depending on circumstances.

    So could we see the ultra-polygamy prerogatives of Mohammed as a way to convince the potential followers that 4 wives is really ok and not too much? The prophet  (real or not) even had the right to have many more, so what is the problem with 4?

    Is that a reasoning you could support?


    Possibly yes.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7694 - September 29, 2019, 06:57 PM

    Did the Quran come from Mohammed you ask Yeez?
    I would like to be convinced but I am still struggling with the layer of extra wives for a spiritual prophet...


    Was Moses a "spiritual" prophet? Noah? At all.
    He is not  "spiritual" as well. He is a man.
    And a man...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7695 - September 29, 2019, 08:25 PM

    Altara,

    Moses and Noah had their wives. There are no specific verses in the Quran saying they had a right to more wives than the rest of MANkind, addressing them as if they were alive. You must see the difference how these prophets are dealt with and how Mohammed is dealt with.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7696 - September 29, 2019, 10:21 PM

    Quote
    You must see the difference how these prophets are dealt with and how Mohammed is dealt with.


    Of course I see it. But I'm not surprised because I have an explanation  (I won't tell it here...) that solves this difference.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7697 - September 30, 2019, 06:47 AM

    Altara,

    Moses and Noah had their wives. There are no specific verses in the Quran saying they had a right to more wives than the rest of MANkind, addressing them as if they were alive. You must see the difference how these prophets are dealt with and how Mohammed is dealt with.

    mundi ..  as I said before Quran is book of dialogue with stories of  OT & NT Prophets and on the  way by the time it became the present book  people inserted some verses/material added in to it  during various story telling times ., That time story telling time span could be any where between the years  600 to 700..

    Now If I completely throw that garbage hadith out in trash   and dealing only with Quran verse/s that says on prophets * their wives or believer and their  wives .. or prophet having more than 4 wives., or  Muslims getting restricted to only 4 wives + as many right hand possess  as possible in a war like situation with infidels and idolaters are questionable and debatable verses  w,r,t why it(quran) is saying what it is saying

    well first let me put  here  all those sexy......sex........wife/wives verses..........so folks can think about them

    Quote
    (1) It is made lawful to you to go into your wives on the night of the fast  they are an apparel for you and you are an apparel for them; Allah knew that you acted unfaithfully to yourselves, so He has turned to you (mercifully) and removed from you (this burden); so now be in contact with them and seek what Allah has ordained for you, and eat and drink until the whiteness of the day becomes distinct from the blackness of the night at dawn, then complete the fast till night, and have not contact with them while you keep to the mosques; these are the limits of Allah, so do not go near them. Thus does Allah make clear His communications for men that they may guard (against evil).  (Chapter #2, Verse #187)

    (2) Your wives are a tilth for you, so go into your tilth  when you like and do good beforehand for yourselves, and be careful (of your duty) to Allah, and know that you will meet Him, and give good news to the believers.(Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #223)

    (3) Those who swear that they will not go in to their wives should wait four months;   so if they go back, then Allah is surely Forgiving, Merciful. (Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #226)

    (4) And (as for) those of you who die and leave wives behind , they should keep themselves in waiting for four months and ten days; then when they have fully attained their term, there is no blame on you for what they do for themselves in a lawful manner; and Allah is aware of what you do.( Chapter #2, Verse #234)

    (5) And those of you who die and leave wives behind, (make) a bequest in favor of their wives of maintenance for]a year without turning (them) out, then if they themselves go away . there is no blame on you for what they do of lawful deeds by themselves, and Allah is Mighty, Wise.  ( Chapter #2, Verse #240)

    (6) And you shall have half of what your wives leave if they have no child, but if they have a child, then you shall have a fourth of what they leave after (payment of) any bequest they may have bequeathed or a debt; and they shall have the fourth of what you leave if you have no child, but if you have a child then they shall have the eighth of what you leave after (payment of) a bequest you may have bequeathed or a debt; and if a man or a woman leaves property to be inherited by neither parents nor offspring, and he (or she) has a brother or a sister, then each of them two shall have the sixth, but if they are more than that, they shall be sharers in the third after (payment of) any bequest that may have been bequeathed or a debt that does not harm (others); this is an ordinance from Allah: and Allah is Knowing, Forbearing. ( Chapter #4, Verse #12)

    (7) [ Forbidden to you are your mothers and your daughters and your sisters and your paternal aunts and your maternal aunts and brothers' daughters and sisters' daughters and your mothers that have suckled you and your foster-sisters and mothers of your wives and your step-daughters who are in your guardianship, (born) of your wives to whom you have gone in, but if you have not gone in to them, there is no blame on you (in marrying them), and the wives of your sons who are of your own loins and that you should have two sisters together, except what has already passed; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.(Chapter #4, Verse #23)

    (8  ) And you have it not in your power to do justice between wives, even though you may wish (it)[ , but be not disinclined (from one) with total disinclination, so that you leave her as it were in suspense; and if you effect a reconciliation and guard (against evil), then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful......(Chapter #4, Verse #129)

    (9) And they say:  What is in the wombs of these cattle is specially for our males, and forbidden to our wives, and if it be stillborn, then they are all partners in it; He will reward them for their attributing (falsehood to Allah); surely He is Wise, Knowing. (Chapter #6, Verse #139)

    (10) And certainly  We sent apostles before you and gave them wives and children,   and it is not in an apostle to bring a sign except by Allah's permission; for every term there is an appointment. (Chapter #13, Verse #38)

    (11) And Allah has made wives for you from among yourselves, and has given you sons and grandchildren from your wives, and has given you of the good things;  is it then in the falsehood that they believe while it is in the favor of Allah that they disbelieve? ( Chapter #16, Verse #72)

    (12) And (as for) those who accuse their wives and have no witnesses except themselves, the evidence of one of these (should be taken) four times, bearing Allah to witness that he is most surely of the truthful ones . (Chapter #24, Verse #6)

    (13) And they who say: O our Lord! grant us in our wives and our offspring the joy of our eyes , and make us guides to those who guard (against evil). (Chapter #25, Verse #74)

    (14) And leave what your Lord has created for you of your wives? Nay, you are a people exceeding limits (Chapter #26, Verse #166)

    (15) Allah has not made for any man two hearts within him; nor has He made your wives whose backs you liken to the backs of your mothers as your mothers, nor has He made those whom you assert to be your sons your real sons;   these are the words of your mouths; and Allah speaks the truth and He guides to the way. ( Chapter #33, Verse #4)

    (16) The Prophet has a greater claim on the faithful than they have on themselves, and his wives are (as) their mothers; and the possessors of relationship have the better claim in the ordinance of Allah to inheritance, one with respect to another, than (other) believers, and (than) those who have fled (their homes), except that you do some good to your friends; this is written in the Book.  ( Chapter #33, Verse #6)

    (17) O Prophet! say to your wives: If you desire this world's life and its adornment, then come, I will give you a provision and allow you to depart a goodly departing (Chapter #33, Verse #28)

    (18) O wives of the prophet! whoever of you commits an open indecency, the punishment shall be increased to her doubly; and this is easy to Allah. ( Chapter #33, Verse #30)

    (19) O wives of the Prophet! you are not like any other of the women; If you will be on your guard, then be not soft in (your) speech, lest he in whose heart is a disease yearn; and speak a good word. (Chapter #33, Verse #32)

    (20) And when you said to him to whom Allah had shown favor and to whom you had shown a favor: Keep your wife to yourself and be careful of (your duty to) Allah; and you concealed in your soul what Allah would bring to light, and you feared men, and Allah had a greater right that you should fear Him. But when Zaid had accomplished his want of her, We gave her to you as a wife[/b][/font], so that there should be no difficulty for the believers in respect of the wives of their adopted sons, when they have accomplished their want of them; and Allah's command shall be performed. [/i](Chapter #33, Verse #37)

    (21) O Prophet! surely We have made lawful to you your wives whom you have given their dowries, and those whom your right hand possesses out of those whom Allah has given to you as prisoners of war, and the daughters of your paternal uncles and the daughters of your paternal aunts, and the daughters of your maternal uncles and the daughters of your maternal aunts who fled with you; and a believing woman if she gave herself to the Prophet, if the Prophet desired to marry her-- specially for you, not for the (rest of) believers;[/s][/size] We know what We have ordained for them concerning their wives and those whom their right hands possess in order that no blame may attach to you; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. [/s][/i](Chapter #33, Verse #50)

    (22) It is not allowed to you to take women afterwards, nor that you should change them for other wives, though their beauty be pleasing to you, except what your right hand possesses and Allah is Watchful over all things. (Chapter #33, Verse #52)

    (23) O you who believe! do not enter the houses of the Prophet unless permission is given to you for a meal, not waiting for its cooking being finished--but when you are invited, enter, and when you have taken the food, then disperse-- not seeking to listen to talk; surely this gives the Prophet trouble, but he forbears from you, and Allah does not forbear from the truth And when you ask of them any goods, ask of them from behind a curtain; this is purer for your hearts and (for) their hearts; and it does not behove you that you should give trouble to the Apostle of Allah, nor that you should marry his wives after him ever[/size]; surely this is grievous in the sight of Allah. [/i]( Chapter #33, Verse #53)

    (24) O Prophet! say to your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers that they let down upon them their over-garments; this will be more proper, that they may be known, and thus they will not be given trouble; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.(Chapter #33, Verse #59)

    (25) They and their wives shall be in shades, reclining on raised couches. ( Chapter #36, Verse #56)

    (26) Our Lord! and make them enter the gardens of perpetuity which Thou hast promised to them /u] and those who do good of their fathers and their wives and their offspring, surely Thou are the Mighty, the Wise.( Chapter #40, Verse #8)

    (27)  Enter the garden, you and your wives; you shall be made happy. (Chapter #43, Verse #70)

    (28) (As for) those of you who put away their wives by likening their backs to the backs of their mothers, they are not their mothers; their mothers are no others than those who gave them birth ; and most surely they utter a hateful word and a falsehood and most surely Allah is Pardoning, Forgiving. (Chapter #58, Verse #2)

    (29) And (as for) those who put away their wives by likening their backs to the backs of their mothers then would recall what they said, they should free a captive before they touch each other; to that you are admonished (to conform); and Allah is Aware of what you do.( Chapter #58, Verse #3)

    (30) And if anything (out of the dowries) of your wives has passed away from you to the unbelievers, then your turn comes, give to those whose wives have gone away the like of what they have spent, and be careful of (your duty to) Allah in Whom you believe. (Chapter #60, Verse #11)

    (31) O you who believe! surely from among your wives and your children there is an enemy to you; therefore beware of them; and if you pardon and forbear and forgive, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.(Chapter #64, Verse #14)

    (32) O Prophet! why do you forbid (yourself) that which Allah has made lawful for you; you seek to please your wives; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (Chapter #66, Verse #1)

    (33) And when the prophet secretly communicated a piece of information to one of his wives-- but when she informed (others) of it, and Allah made him to know it, he made known part of it and avoided part; so when he informed her of it, she said: Who informed you of this? He said: The Knowing, the one Aware, informed me.(Chapter #66, Verse #3)

    (34) Maybe, his Lord, if he divorce you, will give him in your place wives better than you, submissive, faithful, obedient, penitent, adorers, fasters, widows and virgins.(Chapter #66, Verse #5)

    (35) Except in the case of their wives or those whom their right hands possess--   for these surely are not to be blamed,(Chapter #70, Verse #30)


    So dear mundi please read  those quran verses.. and tell me which verse is a problem to you W.r.t. prophets  from OT & NT  w.r.t  Prophet of Islam.,   I will explain you .. Please note that All prophets of OT& NT are also prophets of Islam...

    going to back to your simple question
    .........
    Moses and Noah had their wives. There are no specific verses in the Quran saying they had a right to more wives than the rest of MANkind, addressing them as if they were alive. You must see the difference how these prophets are dealt with and how Mohammed is dealt with.


    well may be the verse/s you selected may not be talking about Moses and Noah., may be they are  speaking about the story from solomon., Quran writers or early Islam preachers might have been talking/preaching    Solomon story who apparently had 700 wives and 300 concubines layered/laced with situation they were in during early Islamic expansion..

    who knows what is going on there??.... allah knows best ...we need fucking mullah here..  Cheesy Cheesy    anyways please pick up the verse you are talking .. we will discuss its story and why Quran writers put that verse at a given place in a given chapter .. and I DELETED GARBAGE THAT IS THERE IN CHAPTER 66 of Quran.. I tell you  whole chapter 66 is garbage  and without doubt  it was added in to Quran by ROGUES OF ISLAM way after the death of the first preacher of Islam Muhammad.  peace be upon him....

    with best wishes
    yeezevee


    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7698 - September 30, 2019, 06:49 AM

    Of course I see it. But I'm not surprised because I have an explanation  (I won't tell it here...) that solves this difference.


    I have a serious problem with those words of yours dear Altara .. on and off I am seeing them in many   posts since you joined the forum some three years ago ..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7699 - September 30, 2019, 09:34 AM

    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/shahanSean/status/1178473347212087300
    Quote
    I’ve been enjoying reading Kenneth Wolf’s new translation of the corpus of Eulogius (d. 859), the notorious leader of the Córdorban Martyrs, beheaded for blasphemy under the Umayyads of Spain. Full of fiery polemic, he often notes Muslim beliefs. Commenting on the Virgin Mary ...

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7700 - September 30, 2019, 11:27 AM

    I have a serious problem with those words of yours dear Altara ..


    Hahaha! Sure you have! I have many times explained why I use those words (and you know it) Wink



  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7701 - September 30, 2019, 11:59 AM

    Hahaha! Sure you have! I have many times explained why I use those words (and you know it) Wink


    .. all right let me dissect that again .. you said    "that solves this difference."

    Of course I see it. But I'm not surprised because I have an explanation  (I won't tell it here...) that solves this difference.


    solves the difference between what & what??  difference between Muhammad and earlier prophets?  or difference  between Islam/Judaism /Christianity  ??

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7702 - September 30, 2019, 05:03 PM

    Yeez,

    I am not passing judgement on the morality of these  wives/concubines/sex verses. Clearly muslims think they are of the highest level. Plenty of people converted from the apparently stricter (see S. Anthony) Christian norms to adopt these verses you cite. Even today there are a lot of western female converts that think polygamy/concubinage is or was just fine.

    I used the additional wives verses only-for-Mohammed, to challenge Altara's case that the prophet never existed. I did not use these verses to challenge the high morality of the Quran or muslim beliefs. This is not the right place to do so.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7703 - September 30, 2019, 07:10 PM

    .. all right let me dissect that again .. you said    "that solves this difference."

    solves the difference between what & what??  difference between [ how is treated ] Muhammad [with respect to the] earlier prophets?  


    Yes.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7704 - October 01, 2019, 09:23 AM

    Yeez,

    I am not passing judgement on the morality of these  wives/concubines/sex verses. Clearly muslims think they are of the highest level.

     Nope.. you my not know BUT YOU ARE PASSING JUDGEMENT ON MORALITY .. specially comparative morality of Judaism/Christianity/Islam  faith books and on  the prophets of respective religions/faiths.   Incidentally there is NOTHING  WRONG with what you are doing., ..passing judgement on the morality in the religious scriptures and their prophets ... is a very important factor to make religions/faiths compatible with each other  by cleaning them up.,  It is already late ..

    Quote
    Plenty of people converted from the apparently stricter (see S. Anthony) Christian norms to adopt these verses you cite. Even today there are a lot of western female converts that think polygamy/concubinage is or was just fine.

    who?? what Sean Anthony??    give me link please.,,,

     his Tafsir on Quran or his  tafsir on   Bible  is a unquestionable explanation of female religious conversions??   Let me tell you that  is nothing to do with why western females or eastern females  convert in to Islam.,  NO RELATION.. In fact it is nothing to do with faiths and faith books .. and that goes to Islam also..

    Quote
    .....I used the additional wives verses only-for-Mohammed, to challenge Altara's case that the prophet never existed.... I did not use these verses to challenge the high morality of the Quran or muslim beliefs. This is not the right place to do so.

    A verse  and number of verses in Quran is very little to do with existence or non-existence of  Muhammad .. as we know the word "Muhammad is simple additive  adjective to a name., and you know that dear mundi

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7705 - October 01, 2019, 09:33 AM

    Yes.



    well sorry .. "yes"   that enough is not GOOD ENOUGH to me., you need to tell more on that and on your reply to mundi dear Altara
    ......... It is a good lecture and hearing it one have always to  remember that the guy who has wrote this :

    Quote
    The problem with this view is that the mufassirun , even the earliest mufassirun , are unable to understand basic elements of the Qur’an. Two examples might illuminate this point. First is the case of the disconnected letters (Ar. al-ahruf al-muqatta“a or fawati al-suwar) that appear at the opening of 29 Suras .These letters seem to play an important role in the organization
    of the Qur’an. For example, every consonantal form in the Arabic alphabet is represented at least once by these letters, while no form is used for more than one letter.Meanwhile, Suras that begin with the same or similar letters are grouped together, even when that grouping means violating the larger ordering principle of the Qur’an (from longer to shorter Suras ).Yet the
    classical mufassirun do not know any of this. They do not demonstrate any memory of the role these letters played in the Qur’an’s organization. Instead their commentary reflects both confusion and creative speculation.


    is Reynolds. Wink
    .................

      I guess what I am asking from you is write more on that "Reynold's" word   mufassirun

    any way I clarify my question on both "yes" and early "mufassirun"   problems in a different post ..

    So when are you publishing??  and what are you going to publish?? and on what topic of Islam??


    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7706 - October 01, 2019, 12:08 PM

    Quote
    So when are you publishing??  and what are you going to publish?? and on what topic of Islam??


    1/ Five/six years I think. All should be referenced and explained clearly. It requires a lot of work.
    2/ A proposition of the real origins of Islam (therefore the Quran). The main  conclusion (may be provisional) is done. It is interesting to note that my starting point is not (at all) the one I come to in what I consider is my conclusion today which of course can change.
    This starting point was interesting but "other dimensions of the topic" did not fit with it and gave another possible perspectives. I've been digging those ones and slowly was convinced, that these "other things/dimensions of the topic" were very possibly the key.Therefore, I've started to change my view but theses "other things/dimensions of the topic" in fact include the one of my starting point but in another perspective Wink. And it fits.
    I have this (last) view since almost two years now, and nothing has come to refute it, even Marc ("I did not say this" TM).
    One point.The general trend now of the field in the sceptic side is the Casanova thesis (Apocalypticism) recycled and conducted by Shoemaker who is a specialist (world-renowned...) in the Virgin Mary (hence his article on the Kathisma in 2003...): his Ph.D.in "religion" :
    Ancient Traditions of the Virgin Mary’s Dormition and Assumption. Oxford:
    Oxford University Press, 2002; repr. 2005; pbk. 2006. 460 pp.
    Books in Progress
    Saint Mary: Early Christian Devotion to the Mother of Jesus. Under review.
    Three Christian Martyrdoms from Early Islamic Palestine: The Passion of Peter of
    Capitolias (d. 715), the Passion of Romanus (d. 780), and the Twenty Martyrs of
    Mar Saba (d. 797) (Georgian and Greek texts with translation). Completed; to
    appear in Eastern Christian Texts, BYU Press.
    The “Six Books” Dormition Narrative in Syriac: Critical Edition, Translation, and
    Commentary. Partly drafted. To appear in the Corpus Christianorum Series
    Apocryphorum, Brepols Publishers (delayed due to manuscript access)
    The Apocalypse of Empire: Imperial Eschatology in Late Antiquity and Early Islam.
    Long term project [ available now].
    2014-Shoemaker "The Reign of God Has Come Eschatology and Empire, 2018- --Shoemaker  "The Apocalypse of Empire: Imperial Eschatology in Late Antiquity and Early Islam"; etc. You can get his CV on academia.
     
    As one needs two legs to walk, the other theory is the layers theory  which explain the composition of the Quran to which all sceptics adhere now (like they adhere in general to Shoemaker) This theory comes from Wansbrough who only sketched it out and extended  to the 9th c. the operation to add  "layers" in the corpus. Now the sceptics consider that the layers were composed and added before 700.
    My issue with this is that there is no material attestation of this.As for the Apocalypticism trend, it can be (easily) explained. But as none sceptics are historians, they miss the point.
    Donner (in French- DeepL has an app now you can translate it easily ) has refuted one part of the Apocalypticism thesis (the messianism) in 2001 https://journals.openedition.org/remmm/246
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7707 - October 01, 2019, 04:08 PM

    Quote
    Five/six years I think. All should be referenced and explained clearly. It requires a lot of work


    That is risk taking waiting so long.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7708 - October 01, 2019, 05:23 PM

     It requires a lot of work.So much so, in fact, that no researcher since Gallez has undertaken such a project .
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7709 - October 01, 2019, 05:30 PM

    Altara,
    Think of Byzantium and the Arabs... Cry
  • Previous page 1 ... 255 256 257258 259 ... 284 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »