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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7470 - September 01, 2019, 07:52 AM

    The Byzantine emperor Heraclius is an author of a book staging the biblical God speaking? I did not know that... (I missed something again! Marc (tm) )
    Nope, the Byzantine emperor Heraclius knew that his dominion was (really) at risk and decided to use all means to not lose it, inventing new dogmas . If Tesei is right this it would have been used after Constantin. To my knowledge, it did not. Make of the Heraclius' statement the origin or the equivalent of what is in the Quran is nonsense...
    This is not serious.


    Here’s the abstract of Tesei’s article. The article itself is behind a paywall. I haven’t read it and wouldn’t pass judgement on it one way or the other without reading it. Have you read it yourself?
    Quote
    In this article I compare the Qurʾānic promise of reward for those who die in battle with similar concepts found in contemporaneous Byzantine military circles, and specifically, the idea promoted by emperor Heraclius (r. 610-641 CE) that soldiers might obtain the “crown of martyrdom” for dying on the battlefield. This idea has almost no antecedent in late antique society. Previously the martyr had been a passive figure slain by an unfaithful enemy, rather than a soldier engaged in a fight to impose (or to avenge) the true faith. Heraclius’ understanding of military martyrdom was arguably a revolutionary innovation. Since no attempt was made to either canonize or popularize on a large scale this point of Heraclius’ propaganda, the concept of military martyrdom must have been limited to the narrow circle of persons who were actively involved in military activities. For this reason, it is surprising that very similar concepts occur in the Qurʾān – that was composed in the very same historical period. The question that I will ask is whether the ideas expressed in the Qurʾān have any relationship to those promoted by imperial propagandists and, if so, the channel or channels through which this transmission took place.

    https://brill.com/view/journals/si/114/2/article-p219_3.xml
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7471 - September 01, 2019, 08:40 AM

    That is because you are not a trained scholar ; otherwise, you would have seen the link where it doesn't exist  Cheesy

     Hello Marc  ..    taking potshot is ok but where did you get this from?

    .................................
    We know that centuries before the arrival of the Arab conquests, Arabs were worshipping Abraham outside Jerusalem in different places including his alleged tomb, and this tradition still survives today where Muslims flock to his tomb along with the Jews........................


    who were those people?  and what proof do we have to call these people living around Jerusalem  before 4/5th century  as Arabs?  and how many centuries before Islam begin?? 3 centuries?  4 ??  5??

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7472 - September 01, 2019, 09:08 AM

    Articles by Daniel Beck. I’m not sure if they’ve already been mentioned here.

    Anti-Sasanian Apocalypse And The Early Qur'ān: Why Muḥammad Began His Career As A Prophet Who Genuinely Prophesied

    https://www.academia.edu/38029465/Anti-Sasanian_Apocalypse_And_The_Early_Qurān_Why_Muḥammad_Began_His_Career_As_A_Prophet_Who_Genuinely_Prophesied


    The Astral Messenger, The Lunar Revelation, The Solar Salvation: Dualist Cosmic Soteriology in The Early Qur'ān

    https://www.academia.edu/37364823/The_Astral_Messenger_The_Lunar_Revelation_The_Solar_Salvation_Dualist_Cosmic_Soteriology_in_The_Early_Qurān
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7473 - September 01, 2019, 09:19 AM

    Articles by Daniel Beck. I’m not sure if they’ve already been mentioned here.

    Anti-Sasanian Apocalypse And The Early Qur'ān: Why Muḥammad Began His Career As A Prophet Who Genuinely Prophesied

    https://www.academia.edu/38029465/Anti-Sasanian_Apocalypse_And_The_Early_Qurān_Why_Muḥammad_Began_His_Career_As_A_Prophet_Who_Genuinely_Prophesied


    The Astral Messenger, The Lunar Revelation, The Solar Salvation: Dualist Cosmic Soteriology in The Early Qur'ān

    https://www.academia.edu/37364823/The_Astral_Messenger_The_Lunar_Revelation_The_Solar_Salvation_Dualist_Cosmic_Soteriology_in_The_Early_Qurān

    sorry to say this .............. but  most if not all of Mr. Daniel Beck. publications are NOT ON HISTORY & ORIGINS OF ISLAM/QURAN   but  he writes on mythology or  mythological stories  of Quran/Islam

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7474 - September 01, 2019, 09:32 AM

    Here’s the abstract of Tesei’s article. The article itself is behind a paywall. I haven’t read it and wouldn’t pass judgement on it one way or the other without reading it. Have you read it yourself? https://brill.com/view/journals/si/114/2/article-p219_3.xml

    'That is extremely interesting article from Tesei dear zeca
    Quote
    Heraclius’ War Propaganda and the Qurʾān’s Promise of Reward for Dying in Battle    by Tommaso Tesei   

    1 Martyrdom in the Qurʾān: a Terminological Problem
    2 Heraclius’ War Propaganda: “May we win the crown of martyrdom!”
    3 Reward for Dying in Battle in the Qurʾān
    4 Heraclius’ Concept of Military Martyrdom and the Qurʾān’s Promise of Reward for Death in Combat
    5 Final Remarks


    I wonder did any one propose such connection ?? or is this is the first paper which partially  explains . how Islam conquered such large area of land from powerful kingdoms with in short period of time

    http://ias.academia.edu/TommasoTesei

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7475 - September 01, 2019, 09:34 AM

    The first of those two articles by Daniel Beck does make arguments on the history and origins of the Quran.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7476 - September 01, 2019, 09:36 AM

    The first of those two articles by Daniel Beck does make arguments on the history and origins of the Quran.

    well .here   
    Quote
    Anti-Sasanian Apocalypse And The Early Qur'ān: Why Muḥammad Began His Career As A Prophet Who Genuinely Prophesied


    first he must answer WHO QURANIC MUHAMMAD  WAS  ??

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7477 - September 01, 2019, 10:23 AM

    Another old thread from Tommaso Tesei:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/teseitommaso/status/1095005369712164865

    https://mobile.twitter.com/teseitommaso/status/1095006163110899713

    https://mobile.twitter.com/DanielABeck9/status/1095014602494996480
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7478 - September 01, 2019, 10:37 AM

    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/emrane/status/1087769149118578689
    Quote
    Nothing typifies the relationship between Syriac and the Qur’an quite like PARADISE. But why? What is the connection between Qur’anic paradise (جنة/فردوس) and Syriac Christian paradise (ܓܢܬܐ)?

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7479 - September 01, 2019, 12:32 PM


    Altara !

     
    Yes Wink
    Quote
    Altara, you attach a lot of importance  to  this link. You must have specific sources that 7th C Arabs saw this link too? Just generally assuming it does not seem solid ground.


    I re explain again my reasoning/rationale whatever, that I owe to Gallez, but (of course...) having not his  conclusion (that he draws from Sebeos like Marc 'I never said that' (TM) ) Wink
    One have (of course...) no "specific" sources who narrates this :" Folks we do this because of that..."
    It is solid ground by the mean of a device which is calls "brain".
    The Arabs see this link because they knew that they were (since ages) embedded in the Bible as the "Son of Ishmael". And one knows that because one have the sources Wink Even Marc ('I never said that' (TM)) pretend that Arabs worshipped Abraham in the Sinai or Negev! How they came to do that? Wink Reading thoughts?

    It is easily deductible view the landscape of sources which describes that the Arabs were  (since ages...) embedded in the Biblical Revelation and were slowly taught in it (cf.Sozomen d.450; Cyril of Scythopolis d.550)  This Arabs biblical status was adopted by all the people around (Syria, Palestine, Iraq, Egypt)  since the bible was becoming the "official" history book of Orient. From the middle of the 5th c. in a totally Christianized Orient, Arabs were seen as ethnically  "sons of Ishmael"  (therefore Abraham)  as being part of the Biblical saga. Arabs have slowly but surely adopted this identity  "sons of Ishmael"  (therefore Abraham) as they did not have any written history (it would have been more difficult, perhaps impossible, if it had been the case). They were blank and, as such, ready to be printed with a story.
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7480 - September 01, 2019, 03:12 PM

    Quote
    That is because you are not a trained scholar ; otherwise, you would have seen the link where it doesn't exist  Cheesy


     Cry
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7481 - September 01, 2019, 03:19 PM

    Quote
    The Arabs see this link because they knew that they were (since ages) embedded in the Bible as the "Son of Ishmael


    I agree to that. My problem is the link of 2:127 with the Temple mount. I dont think the link with sacrificial area and temple mount was a general thing. It isn't now, but was it in the 7th C? If you can't prove it for the Arabs, can you prove it for Jews or Christians?

    Did they in general, or some groups specifically, associate the temple Mount (moriah) with the place Isaac was set up to be sacrificed.
    We know the translators of the Septuagint didnt see the link. We know that the Septuagint is often a more faithful content of the original Hebrew Bible than the Hebrew Bible we have now.

    So Altara, give me something substantial that indicates that the Arabs, Jews or Christians saw the sacrificial place as the Temple Mount.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7482 - September 01, 2019, 05:05 PM

    Here’s the abstract of Tesei’s article. The article itself is behind a paywall. I haven’t read it and wouldn’t pass judgement on it one way or the other without reading it. Have you read it yourself? https://brill.com/view/journals/si/114/2/article-p219_3.xml


    I will then pass judgement on the abstract because I did not read it.
    Quote
    In this article I compare the Qurʾānic promise of reward for those who die in battle with similar concepts found in contemporaneous Byzantine military circles, and specifically, the idea promoted by emperor Heraclius (r. 610-641 CE) that soldiers might obtain the “crown of martyrdom” for dying on the battlefield.


    This is not serious. It is a same pattern at first glance. But one knows perfectly why this idea could have been born in the minds of contemporaneous Byzantine military circles due to the extreme situation where Constantinople were.Nothing else.

    Quote
    This idea has almost no antecedent in late antique society.

     

    Not the concept of martyrdom.The combatants of the Temple in 70 had surely the feeling that they were martyrs like the people described in AT 2M, even if late rabbinic scriptures were rather sceptical (because they've lost hahaha!) they would have been the winners, intellectuals have plausibly considered them as "martyr" which is a Jewish concept :
    Not only miracles, but suffering and martyrdom serve God’s purpose
     (Enc.Jud, vol 3, p.1746)
    Quote
    Heraclius’ understanding of military martyrdom was arguably a revolutionary innovation.


    He still knows well...  At glance yes, when digging, not really.

    Quote
    Since no attempt was made to either canonize or popularize on a large scale this point of Heraclius’ propaganda, the concept of military martyrdom must have been limited to the narrow circle of persons who were actively involved in military activities.


    Why not.

    Quote
    For this reason, it is surprising that very similar concepts occur in the Qurʾān


    At all not surprising for a scholar, only at first glance,  There is a common point between the fact to defend his faith dying without combatting,  therefore being a martyr, and dying for its faith being assaulted which is the case of the war with Persia. It is an innovation dictated by the situation and the history of martyrdom of Christianity has naturally aided to arrive to the Heraclius circles' minds, because it was not.

    Quote
    – that was composed in the very same historical period.


    One does not know that; this argument has to be set aside, it is a conjecture. What one knows is that it emerged publicly late 7th.c It could have been written before the 622.

    Quote
    The question that I will ask is whether the ideas expressed in the Qurʾān have any relationship to those promoted by imperial propagandists and, if so, the channel or channels through which this transmission took place.


    My response is no. I do not know his.The Quranic corpus seems to innovate, like  Heraclius and canonized it. But the elaboration made by Heraclius could just as much been elaborated independently by the Quranic authors as both are rooted in the literature of the Biblical Revelation ; the link is there and nowhere else.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7483 - September 01, 2019, 06:39 PM

    Beck and Sasanians:

    If the Sasanians played such a big role in the Quran, why are they never mentioned?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7484 - September 01, 2019, 09:46 PM

    I agree to that. My problem is the link of 2:127 with the Temple mount. I dont think the link with sacrificial area and temple mount was a general thing.

     

    Temple on the Esplanade is destroyed.The place is empty. In Late Antiquity it is a known thing that this place was the place of the Temple. One cannot see how to be otherwise, Jerusalem being the centre of the Christian world, from Morroco to the Tigris.
    Arrives people who seen themselves as the sons of the one who was lead there by God (according to the Biblical tradition at that time) that they knows it because it is in their minds since ages now (see above posts).
    And at once they arrives, they run to the empty Temple Mount.It would have been so spectacular that observers note it.
    They have text which recounts to them that their direct ancestor, Abraham with its Arab son, Ishmael, (re?)- build a House of God. And that have before their eyes the empty place. It is a human thing to identify himself to his great ancestors. They "rebuild" the destroyed House where it was, except that it become their house as in the texts Ishmael, (not Solomon) was staging too building it.And Ishmael as much as Abraham is their ancestors.
    Gallez is right on this. That is my thinking. The sources giving the possibility of the reason they did it are there.  You just need your brain to connect them.
    Quote
    It isn't now, but was it in the 7th C?

     In Late Antiquity it is a known thing that this place was the place of the Temple. One cannot see how to be otherwise, Jerusalem being the centre of the Christian world, from Morocco to the Tigris.

    Quote
    If you can't prove it for the Arabs, can you prove it for Jews or Christians?


    Academia is your friend about the awareness of the Temple place in Late Antiquity.

    Quote
    Did they in general, or some groups specifically, associate the temple Mount (moriah) with the place Isaac was set up to be sacrificed.


    Not necessarily the Arabs arriving in 637, but possibly.Jewish tradition did. The Arab knows the historical event of the Temple destroyed because this history has became theirs as they were son of Ishmael as told them Jews. Q 2,127 recounts that Abraham and Ishmael built a House of God. There, in the place of the destroyed Temple, as sons of both they felt legitimate to build plus Q 2,127.

    Quote
    We know the translators of the Septuagint didn't see the link. We know that the Septuagint is often a more faithful content of the original Hebrew Bible than the Hebrew Bible we have now.

    The translators of the Septuagint translate not only for Jews but also for Greek authorities. That is why they euphemise and change what they want. One does not have (to my knowlege...)the Hebrew text on which they work.The Septuagint is put aside by the Jewish intellectuals after 70.


    Quote
    So Altara, give me something substantial that indicates that the Arabs, Jews or Christians saw the sacrificial place as the Temple Mount.


    I (personally) do not know a "sacrificial place" in Jerusalem; I only know the Temple Mount  on wich there was an esplanade where there was the Temple (where of course there was sacrifices...)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7485 - September 01, 2019, 10:16 PM

    The first of those two articles by Daniel Beck does make arguments on the history and origins of the Quran.


    Well, nihil nove sub sole (yawn...). Casanova stuff retaken by Shoemaker.All more or less revisionist scholars run to it. Many advantages...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7486 - September 01, 2019, 10:50 PM


    Quote
    The issue being how to precisely explain the nature and process of innovative quranic divergence from related forms of late antique religious discourse.


    I explain it.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7487 - September 02, 2019, 06:53 AM

    Altara and verse 2:127

    So if I understand well, this verse 2:127 shows a connection btw Quran and Biblical tradition.

    That of course is obvious. But not only 2:127 does that, half of the Quran does.

    Yes, the temple mount was a special place for Jews, Christians and also Arabs bc all following biblical tradition. Connecting 2:127 specifically with the temple mount seems a very wide stretch to me.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7488 - September 02, 2019, 08:53 AM

    Ilkka Lindstedt - Religious warfare and martyrdom in Arabic graffiti

    https://www.academia.edu/35307034/Religious_warfare_and_martyrdom_in_Arabic_graffiti_70s_110s_AH_690s_730s_CE_
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7489 - September 02, 2019, 09:42 AM

    Robert Hoyland - The Jewish and/or Christian Audience of the Qur'an and the Arabic Bible

    https://www.academia.edu/38828301/The_Jewish_-_Christian_Audience_of_the_Quran_and_the_Arabic_Bible
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7490 - September 02, 2019, 09:49 AM

    Robert Hoyland - Patricia Crone on the Qur'an

    https://www.academia.edu/37541784/Patricia_Crone_on_the_Quran
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7491 - September 02, 2019, 11:06 AM

    Altara and verse 2:127

    So if I understand well, this verse 2:127 shows a connection btw Quran and Biblical tradition.


    Yes, like  since (-2nd Jubilees) 5,6,7th c.Arabs are tied to the Biblical Revelation.
    Quote
    That of course is obvious. But not only 2:127 does that, half of the Quran does.


    The difference (for me...) is that here (2:127) one have a clear attestation of the link in action.

    Quote
    Yes, the temple mount was a special place for Jews, Christians and also Arabs bc all following biblical tradition. Connecting 2:127 specifically with the temple mount seems a very wide stretch to me.


    It seems (for me...) perfectly rationale.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7492 - September 02, 2019, 01:57 PM

    The Etymological Fallacy and Quranic Studies:Muhammad, Paradise, and Late Antiquity. Pdf  ..Walid Saleh., University of Toronto


    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7493 - September 02, 2019, 02:04 PM

    Quote
    Robert Hoyland - Patricia Crone on the Qur'an

    https://www.academia.edu/37541784/Patricia_Crone_on_the_Quran

    Quote
    ..............There matters stood until she was asked to review Gerald Hawting’s book on The Idea of Idolatry and the Emergence of Islam (Cambridge 1999), which argued that the Quranic mushrikūn  were not polytheists, as was usually assumed by medieval and modern scholars, but rather monotheists who were well acquainted with mono-theist vocabulary and concepts. As Patricia writes in her preface to this volume:
    Quote
    ‘I was quite shocked. It was obvious that Hawting was right: the so-called mushrikūn were not the pagans depicted in the tradition. It was also obvious that I had not really read the book before’.

     This prompted her to read and write about the mushrikūn and, more generally, about the religious environment that gave birth to the Qur’ān. The outcome was the essays collected in the book under review. She determined to proceed by ‘reading the Qur’ān in the light of the Qur’ān itself,  without reference to the exegetical literature, and relating the result to the earlier religious literature produced in the Near East’ (p. 101), wishing thereby to escape the spin put on the Qur’ān by medieval Muslim scholars and to understand the Qur’ān on its own terms and in its own time.............................


    Hello  Altara.. That three volume book/s of dr. Crone published after her demise 2016



    which Robert Hoyland reviews is an interesting one... I wonder whether you read it? and what is your opinion on it??

    with best
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7494 - September 02, 2019, 03:57 PM

    Quote
    Altara and verse 2:127

    So if I understand well, this verse 2:127 shows a connection btw Quran and Biblical tradition.


    That of course is obvious. But not only 2:127 does that, half of the Quran does........................

    yap tell that loudly to every one dear mundi .. on that note I want tell people loudly " DO NOT READ SINGLE VERSE FROM QURAN AND MAKE JUDGEMENT OR WRITE YOUR OWN STORY/ YOUR OWN TAFSIR ON FEW WORDS OR ONE VERSE OF QURAN

    Quote
    115. And Allah's is the East and the West, therefore, whither you turn, thither is Allah's purpose; surely Allah is Ample-giving, Knowing..

    116.   And they say: Allah has taken to himself a son. Glory be to Him; rather, whatever is in the heavens and the earth is His; all are obedient to Him..

    117.   Wonderful Originator of the heavens and the earth, and when He decrees an affair, He only says to it, Be, so there it is..

    118.   And those who have no knowledge say: Why does not Allah speak to us or a sign come to us? Even thus said those before them, the like of what they say; their hearts are all alike. Indeed We have made the communications clear for a people who are sure..

    119.   Surely We have sent you with the truth as a bearer of good news and as a warner, and you shall not be called upon to answer for the companions of the flaming fire..

    120.   And the Jews will not be pleased with you, nor the Christians until you follow their religion. Say: Surely Allah's guidance, that is the (true) guidance. And if you follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to you, you shall have no guardian from Allah, nor any helper..

    121.   Those to whom We have given the Book read it as it ought to be read. These believe in it; and whoever disbelieves in it, these it is that are the losers..

    122.   O children of Israel, call to mind My favor which I bestowed on you and that I made you excel the nations..

    123.   And be on your guard against a day when no soul shall avail another in the least neither shall any compensation be accepted from it, nor shall intercession profit it, nor shall they be helped..

    124.   And when his Lord tried Ibrahim with certain words, he fulfilled them. He said: Surely I will make you an Imam of men. Ibrahim said: And of my offspring? My covenant does not include the unjust, said He..

    125.   And when We made the House a pilgrimage for men and a (place of) security, and: Appoint for yourselves a place of prayer on the standing-place of Ibrahim. And We enjoined Ibrahim and Ismail saying: Purify My House for those who visit (it) and those who abide (in it) for devotion and those who bow down (and) those who prostrate themselves..

    126.   And when Ibrahim said: My Lord, make it a secure town and provide its people with fruits, such of them as believe in Allah and the last day. He said: And whoever disbelieves, I will grant him enjoyment for a short while, then I will drive him to the chastisement of the fire; and it is an evil destination.
    Quote
    127.    And when Ibrahim and Ismail raised the foundations of the House: Our Lord! accept from us; surely Thou art the Hearing, the Knowing:.[/size]

    128.   Our Lord! and make us both submissive to Thee and (raise) from our offspring a nation submitting to Thee, and show us our ways of devotion and turn to us (mercifully), surely Thou art the Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful..

    129.   Our Lord! and raise up in them an Apostle from among them who shall recite to them Thy communications and teach them the Book and the wisdom, and purify them; surely Thou art the Mighty, the Wise..

    130.   And who forsakes the religion of Ibrahim but he who makes himself a fool, and most certainly We chose him in this world, and in the hereafter he is most surely among the righteous..

    131.   When his Lord said to him, Be a Muslim, he said: I submit myself to the Lord of the worlds..

    132.   And the same did Ibrahim enjoin on his sons and (so did) Yaqoub. O my sons! surely Allah has chosen for you (this) faith, therefore die not unless you are Muslims..

    133.   Nay! were you witnesses when death visited Yaqoub, when he said to his sons: What will you serve after me? They said: We will serve your God and the God of your fathers, Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq, one God only, and to Him do we submit..

    134.   This is a people that have passed away; they shall have what they earned and you shall have what you earn, and you shall not be called upon to answer for what they did..

    135.   And they say: Be Jews or Christians, you will be on the right course. Say: Nay! (we follow) the religion of Ibrahim, the Hanif, and he was not one of the polytheists..

    136.   Say: We believe in Allah and (in) that which had been revealed to us, and (in) that which was revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and (in) that which was given to Musa and Isa, and (in) that which was given to the prophets from their Lord, we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit..

    137.   If then they believe as you believe in Him, they are indeed on the right course, and if they turn back, then they are only in great opposition, so Allah will suffice you against them, and He is the Hearing, the Knowing.[/i].

    138.   (Receive) the baptism of Allah, and who is better than Allah in baptising? and Him do we serve..

    139.   Say: Do you dispute with us about Allah, and He is our Lord and your Lord, and we shall have our deeds and you shall have your deeds, and we are sincere to Him..

    140.   Nay! do you say that Ibrahim and Ismail and Isaac and Yaqoub and the tribes were Jews or Christians? Say: Are you better knowing or Allah? And who is more unjust than he who conceals a testimony that he has from Allah? And Allah is not at all heedless of what you do..

    141.   This is a people that have passed away; they shall have what they earned and you shall have what you earn, and you shall not be called upon to answer for what they did..

    142.   The fools among the people will say: What has turned them from their qiblah which they had? Say: The East and the West belong only to Allah; He guides whom He likes to the right path.


    but read at least 10 verses above and 10 verses below  of the verse you are interested to explore to make some sense why Quran writers wrote that verse................. so for Q 2:127.. you must read all those verses...

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7495 - September 02, 2019, 05:40 PM

    Arietta Papaconstantinou - The desert and the city: the rhetoric of savagery and civilisation in some early Byzantine narratives

    https://www.academia.edu/36008971/The_desert_and_the_city_the_rhetoric_of_savagery_and_civilisation_in_some_early_Byzantine_narratives_in_in_Identity_and_the_other_in_Byzantium._Papers_from_the_Fourth_International_Sevgi_Gonul_Byzantine_Studies_Symposium_23_25_June_2016_ed._Koray_Durak_and_Ivana_Jevtić_Istanbul_2019_83-92
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7496 - September 02, 2019, 06:30 PM

    Guillaume Dye - Mapping the Sources of the Qur'anic Jesus

    https://www.academia.edu/33138609/Mapping_the_Sources_of_the_Quranic_Jesus
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7497 - September 02, 2019, 06:43 PM

    This prompted her to read and write about the mushrikūn and, more generally, about the religious environment that gave birth to the Qur’ān. The outcome was the essays collected in the book under review. She determined to proceed by ‘reading the Qur’ān in the light of the Qur’ān itself,  without reference to the exegetical literature, and relating the result to the earlier religious literature produced in the Near East’ (p. 101), wishing thereby to escape the spin put on the Qur’ān by medieval Muslim scholars and to understand the Qur’ān on its own terms and in its own time.............................
    Hello  Altara.. That three volume book/s of dr. Crone published after her demise 2016

    (Clicky for piccy!)

    I wonder whether you read it? and what is your opinion on it??

    with best
    yeezevee


    Crone was a great believer :
    If we choose to start again [ the history of Islam], we begin with the Doctrina Jacobi, a Greek anti-Jewish tract spawned by the Heraclean persecution.[...]
    The point is not of great intrinsic interest, but it does suggest that we have in the Doctrina a stratum of belief older than the Islamic tradition itself. Of greater historical significance is the fact that the Prophet is represented as alive at the time of the conquest of Palestine.
    Hagarism, p.3-4.1977.
    That is why she did not get anything. Testifies to this  is The Religion of the Qurʾānic Pagans : God and the Lesser Deities2010, where she is totally lost. I never saw a scholar so lost to address a topic.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7498 - September 02, 2019, 06:55 PM

    Carlos Segovia - Reimagining the Early Quranic Milieu

    https://www.academia.edu/34630485/Reimagining_the_Early_Quranic_Milieu_Conference_Paper
    Quote
    But is there any verse in the Qur’ān that may help us to place the early quranic community in Sasanian Iraq, where Messalianism was widespread, Manichaeism had – so to speak – its headquarters, and it is reported that several Arab-Bedouin groups linked to the Ḥiǧāz in the Arabian Peninsula regularly camped – especially in the surroundings of al-Ḥīra, the capital of the Nasrid kingdom, near present-day Naǧaf (Toral-Niehoff 2010; 2013; Fisher and Wood 2016), which in my view represents too the most plausible geographic setting for the early quranic community on either the eve or the wake of the Byzantine-Persian war of the 7th century?

    I do think so. I am currently working, in collaboration with Gilles Courtieu (Courtieu and Segovia forthcoming 2019), on the possible background of Q 43:2-45, a passage with Messalian overtones, as I have already suggested, and whose enigmatic allusion to the “two cities” in the dual form (الــــقـریــــتـیـن al-qaryatayn, v. 31) we interpret as a reference to Ctesiphon-Seleucia, the Sasanian capital – which was relatively close to al-Ḥīra. If our hypothesis is correct, moreover, this is the only occurrence in the Qur’ān where the community behind the quranic prophet is alluded in the context of prophetical polemics and theological counter-discourse – Ḥirā’ (with a slightly different spelling, therefore) being also the name of the cave near Mecca where the Islamic tradition has Muḥammad receiving his very first revelations. But I shall not reveal anything else on this puzzling matter for now...


    Altara - does Segovia’s argument for placing the early quranic community in Iraq sound plausible to you?

    His academia site lists the titles of a couple of upcoming papers related to this: “Q 2:102, 43:31, and Ctesiphon-Seleucia: New Insights into the Mesopotamian Setting of the Earliest Quranic Milieu”, “Messalianism, Binitarianism, and the East-Syriac Background of the Qur'ān”.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7499 - September 02, 2019, 07:08 PM

    Zeca seems to have wake up from a long long sleep Wink
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