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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7440 - August 29, 2019, 08:14 PM

    Byzantine-arab chronicle:

    First "troubles" seem to be a Saracen uprising, not invasion


    Now some of the neighbouring Arabs were receiving small payments from the emperors for guarding the approaches to the desert (πρὸς τὸ φυλάξαι τὰ στόμια τῆς ἐρήμου) . At that time, a certain eunuch arrived to distribute the wages of the soldiers, and when the Arabs came to receive their wages according to custom, the eunuch drove them away, saying, “The emperor can barely pay his soldiers their wages, much less these dogs (τοῖς κυσὶ τούτοις) !” Distressed, therefore, the Arabs went over to their fellow tribesmen (ἀπῆλθον πρὸς τοὺς ὁμοφύλους) , and they led them (their ‘fellow tribesmen’) to the rich country of Gaza (καὶ αὐτοὶ ὡδήγησαν αὐτοὺς ἐπὶ τὴν χώραν Γάζης) , which is the gateway to the desert in the direction of Mount Sinai. ( Chronicle , A.M. 6123/630/31 A.D.)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7441 - August 29, 2019, 08:17 PM

    Marc

    Quote
    Chronicle , A.M. 6123/630/31 A.D


    Which chronicle is this?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7442 - August 29, 2019, 08:22 PM

    Theophanes

    https://archive.org/details/TheChronicleOfTheophanesTrans.ByHarryTurtledove1982/page/n1

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7443 - August 29, 2019, 08:24 PM

    Marc,

    Internet is wonderful! Great source, reading... https://books.google.de/books?id=4dpCDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA86&lpg=PA86&dq=Chronicle+,+A.M.+6123/630/31+A.D&source=bl&ots=7ECZ4P0fJb&sig=ACfU3U0aauJPLvxh7wFFA2r9-PP-EBpx1g&hl=nl&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiQv5mm86jkAhUeQkEAHakpDyMQ6AEwCnoECAcQAQ#v=onepage&q=Chronicle%20%2C%20A.M.%206123%2F630%2F31%20A.D&f=false
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7444 - August 29, 2019, 08:41 PM

     His suggestion to a new approach of islamic origins by taking examples of what happened in the western part of the roman empire and how it was studied is interesting.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7445 - August 29, 2019, 09:02 PM

    Quote
    His suggestion to a new approach of islamic origins by taking examples of what happened in the western part of the roman empire and how it was studied is interesting.


    Yes, I think that is a good approach.

    I am reading  "Empires and barbarians" from P. Heather.  Explains in detail how Roman's system of clients work at the border. A very fine balance is needed. We are probably seeing a collapse of the system in the 7th C at the Arab frontier.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7446 - August 29, 2019, 09:46 PM

    I will just say 3 things to close this ridiculous discussion


    "Does it matter?"
    Quote
    For the link between 2.127 and Arabs building something on the Temple Mount, there is ZERO link.

     

    There is one but you cannot see it.


    If there was a link, you would :

    Quote
    - provide their goal for them doing this (what do they expect from it),


    I've already responded to this the last time (yawn...)

    Quote
    - and show how that goal can be found in 2.127 that you say inspire them


    Idem.

    Quote
    I also don't understand why you quote Gallez who has a totally different explanation for this, on which you don't agree.


    He links the building with the verse. In this, he's right. I differ for the rest of its interpretation (of course...) Moreover  the nature of the  building  was not really clear for all (Theophane believed that it was the Temple that Arabs had rebuild (Gallez vol.I, n.803. 1st ed.)

    Quote
    Maybe you have a better case for stating this opinion but, so far, you haven't articulated it so that it does sound possible apart for you.


    I consider that the Arabs have build because of the verse where Ishmael build the Arab Temple.As Ishmael is the Father of Arabs according to the all biblical tradition before Islam, therefore the sons of Abraham as well, Arabs in 637 as sons of Abraham and Ishmael  felt they were legitimate to do it like their father did it in the Quranic text(s). It is called mimetism; nihil nove sub sole here.

    Quote
    The source is the Quran

     

    Methodologically it cannot: A source cannot be the studied object
    You have to find other sources about your "sectarian disputes" do you have any?
    For the moment you have nothing to state here. Intra Jewish disputes? Why not. Bring the sources. And not the personal  AJ interpretations of the Talmud... thanks...(yawn...)
    Same with Christians on the specific topics the Quran raises...

    Quote
    as it is in there that the word believer is defined. From that definition and other parts of the book, you understand that Christian and Jews are believers.


    Early 8th c. (therefore before the tradition) Christian are considered as not believers (yawn...)

    Quote
    Therefore, when the Quran criticize some specific behaviours and/or doctrina items of Jews and Christians, it perfectly fit the concept of intra sectarian disputes.


    You did not really read the Quran.

    Quote
    You can disagree but you need to provide solid counter-arguments and a counter-theory,  and you have failed to do so.


    As I never provided a substantiated counter-theory here, I cannot see where I would have failed Wink

     
    Quote
    I never implied that you need to link the Mahdi with the Quran. But you did take my question "why is the Mahdi not in the Quran" and you interpreted it your own way without thinking.


    - why is the Mahdi absent from the Quran said he. Wink

    Quote
    knowing that I already said here a lot of the Islamic religion is not in the Quran


    Of course. But not islamic beliefs... Wink
    Quote
    it is for another reason that you failed to see because your thesis about Islam prevent you to look in a different direction.


    Like I aready said (yawn...) I've never provided any thesis about Islam here (or elsewhere...)

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7447 - August 29, 2019, 10:00 PM

    Yes, I think that is a good approach.

    I am reading  "Empires and barbarians" from P. Heather.  Explains in detail how Roman's system of clients work at the border. A very fine balance is needed. We are probably seeing a collapse of the system in the 7th C at the Arab frontier.


    Yes Constantinople does not pay any more. Therefore Arabs take over the land (Palestine) one can see how with the attestation of Sophronios. Nothing to see with a "prophet", Mecca/Zem-zem or the peninsula...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7448 - August 30, 2019, 06:33 AM

    Altara and 2:127

    Quote
    And [mention] when Abraham was raising the foundations of the House and [with him] Ishmael, [saying], "Our Lord, accept [this] from us. Indeed You are the Hearing, the Knowing.


    How do you connect Abraham with Jerusalem?

    I have here a link of bible people having set out all kinds of journeys for Abraham and I  dont see the temple mount mentioned once. http://www.israel-a-history-of.com/story-of-abraham.html
    What I do see is Mesopotamia and Ur, the land described in the Byzantine-Arab chronicle as being the home of Abraham:

    Quote
    Macca- as they consider it, the home of Abraham, which lies in the desert between Ur of the Chaldeans and Carra the city of Mesopotamia.


    What is your source that 6th C people (arabs) connected the Abraham/Ismael story with the temple mount?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7449 - August 30, 2019, 11:31 AM

    Quote
    How do you connect Abraham with Jerusalem?


    In some tradition elaborated by the Jews the place of the sacrifice of Isaac is seen as being the Rock of the Temple. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundation_Stone
    Quote
    What I do see is Mesopotamia and Ur, the land described in the Byzantine-Arab chronicle as being the home of Abraham


    The sacrifice of Isaac take place long time after the departure of Abraham from those places according to the Bible.

    Quote
    What is your source that 6th C people (arabs) connected the Abraham/Ismael story with the temple mount?


    Arabs were connected to the Bible history by the Jews and the Christians.
    The Jews take care of telling the story of the Arabs for them very early: sons of Ishmael etc., in Jubilees (-150), XX, 11-13, etc. Christians the same : Eusebius (d.339) and  Epiphanius (d.403) Sozomen (d.450) attests of the relation between Jews and Arabs.Cyril of Scythopolis (d.559)  call the Arabs "son of Ishmael and Hagarenes".
    It is then easily deductible that Arabs has integrated themselves in the Biblical story that Jews and Christian recounted them (since ages...) and therefore felt legitimate to build on the esplanade of the Temple on behalf of this story that they believed (since ages...) to be their story.
    They could have connected (easily...) the Abraham/Ismael story of Q 2,127 with the temple mount because the environment in which they lived (since ages, see above...) had naturally prepared them to do so.
    It is then understandable that owning few Quranic texts (whose Q 2,127),  they build on the esplanade copying the actions of characters of Q 2,127, to which they identified themselves (since ages, see above) being their heirs.




  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7450 - August 30, 2019, 12:46 PM

    mundi says HERE IS THE LINK TO REAL REAL HISTORY OF ABRAHAM
    Altara and 2:127

    How do you connect Abraham with Jerusalem?

    I have here a link of bible people having set out all kinds of journeys for Abraham and I  dont see the temple mount mentioned once. http://www.israel-a-history-of.com/story-of-abraham.html
     .................................

     and Altara   says Jews telling stories..............
    .............The Jews ........... telling  the story  ...............


    Well faith and faith books are nothing but songs, sonnets and stories with full tragedies and bit of survival philosophical words/statements .. that is true to all faiths and faith heads...

    but mundi that link you gave  on story of Abraham ., who wrote that?

    and would you consider that as REAL HISTORY ABRAHAM?? it says

    Quote
    ,,Sargon, and the Old Akkadian Period from 2360-2180 B.C.; Ur-Nammu, and the Third Dynasty of Ur, from to the end of the second millennium, or start of the first; Hammurabi, dated to the exact period from 1728-1686 B.C.
    Scholars have dated the story of Abraham in Genesis as occurring in the period between Ur-Nammu and Hammurabi. This period falls in the Middle Bronze Age, from between 2100-1550 B.C.E. The story of Abraham and the other Patriarchs are widely agreed upon to have happened in this window.

    Albright, after years of study and wavering, finally concluded that Abraham existed between the 20th and 19th centuries B.C...


    Harry potter stories, songs.... sonnets should NOT be considered as History  and origin of faiths dear mundi

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7451 - August 30, 2019, 02:24 PM

    Quote
    Well faith and faith books are nothing but songs, sonnets and stories


    Of course. On which is built all the human culture. Arabs were already embedded by the biblical revelation whereas they did not know it. It is the Jews, followed by the Christians who had embedded them. As the Bible is taken as an "historical" book of a certain people who states that it is an antique people. But it is not (of course...) Herodotus (d.-425) the founder of "History" does not know the Jews. He knows all the people of the Mediterranean : the Jews, he knows not. It is stories which build people. Nothing else.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7452 - August 30, 2019, 05:07 PM

    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/azforeman/status/1167337938176413696
    Quote
    The parallels, in habits of thought and mood, between the Jāhilī corpus and the material from Hismaic and Safaitic inscriptions can be a bit spooky sometimes. The language is quite different, but the cultural milieu is very familiar...


    Also: https://mobile.twitter.com/azforeman/status/1167266404141273090

     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7453 - August 30, 2019, 05:20 PM

    Thread on Safaitic as Arabic: https://mobile.twitter.com/Safaitic/status/1167439156781305859
    Quote
    The point is, whatever linguistic definition one develops to include Classical Arabic, Najdi, Quranic Arabic, and the Yemeni dialects, will necessarily include Safaitic...

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7454 - August 30, 2019, 05:23 PM


    I have here a link of bible people having set out all kinds of journeys for Abraham and I  dont see the temple mount mentioned once. http://www.israel-a-history-of.com/story-of-abraham.html


    The only closest connection of Abraham to the Temple Mount is Mount Moriah where Isaac is supposed to have nearly been sacrified. Solomon Temple is supposed to have been built centuries later.

    We know that centuries before the arrival of the Arab conquests, Arabs were worshipping Abraham outside Jerusalem in different places including his alleged tomb, and this tradition still survives today where Muslims flock to his tomb along with the Jews.

    Chronicles at the time of the Arab conquests, and before, do mention a sacred place of the Arabs , even one source linking it to Abraham ; that place seem to be in the Sinai/Neguev area.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7455 - August 30, 2019, 06:32 PM

    Quote
    Chronicles at the time of the Arab conquests, and before, do mention a sacred place of the Arabs , even one source linking it to Abraham ; that place seem to be in the Sinai/Neguev area.


    Before, in the Sinai or Neguev?
    Sources?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7456 - August 30, 2019, 07:23 PM



    An earlier thread on militant piety in the Qur'an: https://mobile.twitter.com/teseitommaso/status/1136585600075816961
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7457 - August 30, 2019, 08:47 PM

    Quote
    but mundi that link you gave  on story of Abraham ., who wrote that?


    The Abraham link is from people who take the OT very seriously and literally. I suppose they took a magnifying glas  s and retraced A'm story as it is in the OT. if these literalists can't find a link to temple mount, who can?

    Altara !

    I read that the Septaguint has another translation for Mount Moriah. And the link Jerusalem/ Moriah seems to be very shaky in the Hebrew bible.

    Altara, you attach a lot of importance  to  this link. You must have specific sources that 7th C Arabs saw this link too? Just generally assuming it does not seem solid ground.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7458 - August 30, 2019, 09:21 PM

    Yeez,

    Of course I know Abraham's story, whether in Ur or on the temple Mount is not real. But that is not relevant in this discussion. What is relevant is what the people of the 7th C thought.

    And sometimes using the work of bible literalists (or jihadi sympathisers) is handy. That's all.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7459 - August 30, 2019, 09:35 PM


    I read that the Septaguint has another translation for Mount Moriah. And the link Jerusalem/ Moriah seems to be very shaky in the Hebrew bible.



    https://thetorah.com/mysterious-land-of-moriah/

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7460 - August 30, 2019, 10:01 PM

    Quote
    Altara !


    Yes

    Quote
    I read that the Septaguint has another translation for Mount Moriah.

     
     2Ch 3:1 :
    Then Solomon began to build the House of the Lord in Jerusalem on Mount Moriah
    (מוֹרִיָּה) - transliteration : Mowriyah
     Strong's H4179 - Mowriyah-
    Outline of Biblical Usage
        Moriah = "chosen by Jehovah"
            the place where Abraham took Isaac for sacrifice
            the mount on the eastern edge of Jerusalem on which Solomon built the temple

    Gen 22:2

    He said, "Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Mori'ah, and offer him there as a burnt offering upon one of the mountains of which I shall tell you."

    Quote
    And the link Jerusalem/ Moriah seems to be very shaky in the Hebrew bible


    For scholarship maybe. For Jews, less. In that case, late (post 1st c.) Jewish tradition seems  (I have no exact reference) identifying the one with other. It then what was taught, therefore transmitted. That the Septuagint have (sometimes) curious translations is known... Wink Moreover, the Septuagint was put aside by Jewish authorities after 70.

    Quote
    Altara, you attach a lot of importance  to  this link. You must have specific sources that 7th C Arabs saw this link too? Just generally assuming it does not seem solid ground.


    This link (Q 2, 127 and 637) corroborate my previous work. When I commenced it, I had (of course ...) read Gallez And the link he made had interested me, no more. I had almost forgotten it.  Working on the topic after some months of working,I remembered it, I got a glance, and see that it corroborates what I was thinking. Wink

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7461 - August 30, 2019, 10:08 PM

    An earlier thread on militant piety in the Qur'an: https://mobile.twitter.com/teseitommaso/status/1136585600075816961

    ......................

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7462 - August 30, 2019, 10:18 PM

    Yeez - the quote in full:
    Quote
    The Byzantine emperor Heraclius, in particular, promoted an intense propagandistic campaign aimed at representing the conflict with the Sasanians not as a simple clash between empires, but rather as a confrontation between the true religion, Christianity, and the false Zoroastrian cult.


    Why do you have a problem with this?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7463 - August 30, 2019, 10:28 PM

    Yeez - the quote in full:
    Why do you have a problem with this?


    well dear zeca., did he prove by writing  thesis and a book on "true religion, Christianity, and the false Zoroastrian cult"  to prove Christianity is TRUE RELIGION and Zoroastrianism is false cult  from Princeton?


    The only difference between a cult and a religion is the amount of real estate they own.........Frank Zappa

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7464 - August 30, 2019, 10:32 PM

    Read what he’s written again and think about it.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7465 - August 30, 2019, 10:38 PM

    Read what he’s written again and think about it.

    oh ok...   
    Quote
    The Byzantine emperor Heraclius, in particular, promoted an intense propagandistic campaign aimed at representing the conflict with the Sasanians not as a simple clash between empires, but rather as a confrontation between the true religion, Christianity, and the false Zoroastrian cult.

    i only read catchy words on twitter  did he write something on that "emperor Heraclius,  intense propagandistic campaign"

    anyways I miss read .. not a good reader of tweets . let me edit that post

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7466 - August 30, 2019, 10:47 PM

    Thanks.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7467 - August 30, 2019, 11:12 PM

    An earlier thread on militant piety in the Qur'an: https://mobile.twitter.com/teseitommaso/status/1136585600075816961

    Quote
    The Byzantine emperor Heraclius, in particular, promoted an intense propagandistic campaign ...The Emperor himself reportedly encouraged his troops to earn martyrdom in battle.

    The Byzantine emperor Heraclius is an author of a book staging the biblical God speaking? I did not know that... (I missed something again! Marc (tm) )
    Nope, the Byzantine emperor Heraclius knew that his dominion was (really) at risk and decided to use all means to not lose it, inventing new dogmas . If Tesei is right this it would have been used after Constantin. To my knowledge, it did not. Make of the Heraclius' statement the origin or the equivalent of what is in the Quran is nonsense...
    This is not serious.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7468 - August 31, 2019, 11:42 AM

     

    Quote
    The Byzantine emperor Heraclius, in particular, promoted an intense propagandistic campaign ...The Emperor himself reportedly encouraged his troops to earn martyrdom in battle.

    .................. Tesei is right this it would have been used after Constantin. To my knowledge, it did not. Make of the Heraclius' statement the origin or the equivalent of what is in the Quran is nonsense.......

    This is not serious.

    I guess that is from Tesei tweets....., well he is just  flying an idea for this quick expansion of Islam not just in Arabia but in to Persia ..

    Quote
    "..............the equivalent of what is in the Quran is nonsense....................."


     Cheesy.. how do you define .. what is there is Quran dear Altara ??.. what is the gist of it in your thoughts ??

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7469 - August 31, 2019, 08:13 PM

    Altara, you attach a lot of importance  to  this link. You must have specific sources that 7th C Arabs saw this link too? Just generally assuming it does not seem solid ground.


    That is because you are not a trained scholar ; otherwise, you would have seen the link where it doesn't exist  Cheesy
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