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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7410 - August 27, 2019, 09:27 PM


    So, according to you, 48:24 relates to the treaty of al-Houdaybiyya then ? The answer is of course no but believers believe the contrary  despite the fact the text on its own doesn't fit the Sira narrative but it MUST tie up at all costs for believers Wink


    All of this is explicable; it is (very) curious (to me) that you cannot understand why.

    Quote
    And I guess you think surah al massad is about a guy called Abu Lahab  ; well, why not.............


    You have a (very) big issue with reading and understanding; you're in treatment?

    Quote
    So the Quran tell you how many times a day you must pray and how then ? You need to show us where  Wink


    Nope, but it tells to pray again and again. From this, Arabs have built their own stuff.

    Quote
    So the Mahdi is not an item within Islam ? It is in the Quran ? please tell us where


    It is yet simple. Curious that you did not see. Ah yes, it doesn't matter !

    Quote
    It is meagre because you want to believe in something else

     

    It is because you have one example to write here to support your theory that the text was filled with extra text to built a prophetic figure. When ask to bring something else, it is more difficult and you ran away, vanishing in the fog...Wink

    Quote
    - tell us why it is meagre,

     Done.

    Quote
    - tell us a better theory  ; oh yeah, we would have to read your book so, in the meantime, we must wait  and think you have the right answer ;

     
    At all. You have to work  (Ah yes "it does not matter..." Sorry..). At least I have sufficient things to say here to easily question you about what you say.
    The outcome is here :
    -The Mahdi/
    -Muhammad al Hannafiyah
    - 17,1
    - Islam does not come from the Quran.
    -There is no prophet figure in the Quran.
    -Sebeos has to be accepted at face value.

    Quote
    that is something I would label meagre.


    Well I think what I write here is not so meagre Wink
    Quote
    I said Gallez in ther sense of a text ready to be used to preach to a given audience ; it might be altered along the way but it would be minor alterations


    Layer theory.

    Quote
    Sectarian conflicts among Jews and Christians where their respective texts are combined into one single book.  


    Deus is a great novelist.

    Quote
    You can call it the layers theory.


    Nihi nove sub sole.

    Quote
    You can add a different scenario if you can (yeah I know let's wait for your book  Cheesy )

    Wink






  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7411 - August 27, 2019, 10:50 PM

    Did I say that ? No


    With other words it means (exactly) this.
    Quote
    I perfectly know the text is cryptic and, if the readers don't pay too much attention, you can link any story to it, and that Muhammad character developed according to political needs but also religious ones ( Talmud and Midrashim were used to tell Muhammad's life).


    There is no need of the Talmud and Midrash. The Quran suffices. But as you did not  really pay attention to it (what I call "read") you cannot know it.

    Quote
    What I question, and I said it above but you didn't read me, is that there was one prophet figure and the Quran and the need to link the 2 while you just say there was the Quran with a prophet in it.


    There was no real living historical prophet figure. In fact you still believe that there was someone in the real world who was a prophetic figure  (one say that is is your friend Muhammad ibn al-Hanafiyyah because it is him (said you) who is on the 685 Bishapur coin ) : is that there was one prophet figure and the Quran and the need to link the 2 and in the same time emergence of Quranic texts and the issue was for Muslims to tie the one with the other.
    Therefore, one way or another, a "prophet" (view as such by his friends) has existed.
    Well, what says about this? It is the Muslim narrative that you transpose elsewhere...and later than 632 since MBH is said dying in 700.I just remark that none (real) contemporary sources did speak of him. They speak of Ali. Was he the Hidden Prophet? This absence is enough (for me...)  to set aside your theory.

    Quote
    So now you need to tell me why my assumption is wrong ; it might be but you cannot prove it ;

     

    I can or cannot prove anything; I have no time machine (note the rhyme...)
    Quote
    therefore why you go on to say things that everyone know but you bring no proof of the validity of your assumption.


    What I said until now is sourced or logically deducted by (real) contemporary sources.

    Quote
    What is less known is that Ibn Ishaq demonstrate in his Sira that Muhammad is a fake prophet by linking one event with the Quran, and one with a different book. I guess you know which one I am refering to as you read them both  Wink


    I did not have to read Ibn Ishaq since I had understand that his "Muhammad" (or whatever) had never existed. Bu you, you did, as you (still) believed in an historical figure as recounts the narrative. My departure point has commenced whereas all this stuff had been set aside.
    You, you still believe that there was someone; you're stuck in it.I'm afraid you're (still) a great believer.

    Quote
    It is a little bit more complicated than what you assume.


    You're a great believer Wink this is not complicated...



  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7412 - August 28, 2019, 12:13 AM

    All of this is explicable; it is (very) curious (to me) that you cannot understand why.


    I explain it in the sentence you quote  whistling2


    Quote
    Nope, but it tells to pray again and again. From this, Arabs have built their own stuff.


    In this very example, you totally miss the point of what the text goal is but it is normal ; though you stripped the meaning of the text of its islamic content, you still read it through the muslim narrative and take the meaning of the word in their islamic sense rather than what they truly mean.

     
    Quote
    It is because you have one example to write here to support your theory that the text was filled with extra text to built a prophetic figure. When ask to bring something else, it is more difficult and you ran away, vanishing in the fog...Wink


    You mean like you do here  whistling2

    Quote
    Quote
    Quote
    The second is the regular emphasis in the Quranic texts on arabness.

    Examples ?


    Quote
    Quote
    637.


    As we say in French, the first cuckoo does not necessarily indicate the arrival of spring (provided of course your interpretation is correct),

    Any other examples ?




    Quote
    Done.


    No I asked you to reply to this
    Quote
    Yes. How do you explain the anti Rabbanite stance then? Do you have an explication?
    Apart  your "sectarian dispute" which means rather meagre as explication...


    that you label as meagre and you haven't. So I ask again. Why is it meagre ?

    Quote

    At all. You have to work  (Ah yes "it does not matter..." Sorry..). At least I have sufficient things to say here to easily question you about what you say.


    Unfortunately, you don't read and/or understand what I say. Even when I correct your wrong understanding on my writings, you keep on insisiting to force on me your interpretation of what I say   wacko. It does show how your mind work and why you get many things wrong.

    Quote
    Deus is a great novelist.


    He is a great and bright guy who went through a ton of sources, some of which you have no clue they exist nor are interested in (as they don't fit your theory) but I can admit his narrative of the beinning of Islam shows confusion in his thoughts when trying to crack it ;  he still brings interesting stuff to the field.


    Quote
    There was no real living historical prophet figure. In fact you still believe that there was someone in the real world who was a prophetic figure


    I said once on this forum that though sources seem to prove Muhammad existed, I don't believe in it and here I never mentionned what you said ; I only spoke about a prophet figure, not an actual living being. Distorting reality seem to be a trait of yours wacko

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7413 - August 28, 2019, 12:29 AM

    So i will repeat my current assumptions :

    - Quran and a prophet figure were not linked but needed to be linked
    - in order to do that, muslim scholars tried and linked each verse of the sura to the lifr of a so called prophet ; reading the text you clearly see they struggled to fit the 2 together
    - evidence on those struggle to fit it in is when you are able to link cryptic quaranic writings with ancient jewish/christians scriptures,
    - it also show up in so called interpolations but that is a tricky road to take ; however, even muslim narrative list variance, additions,
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7414 - August 28, 2019, 07:22 AM

    Altara,

    Quote
    There was no real living historical prophet figure. In fact you still believe that there was someone in the real world who was a prophetic figure


    How do you see the leadership during the "arab"expansion? I would think there was someone, a king, a general, a leader... or you can call him a prophet. No big difference in my eyes. His name might not have been Mohammed, but there must have been someone?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7415 - August 28, 2019, 09:10 AM

    Altara,

    How do you see the leadership during the "arab"expansion? I would think there was someone, a king, a general, a leader... or you can call him a prophet. No big difference in my eyes. His name might not have been Mohammed, but there must have been someone?

    great question to corner the Altara cat  dear mundi

    But Arab expansion is a very loose word.,  better word is Expansion of Islamic empires ,, can't  you throw the time line of that expansion  in to your post? I mean for e,g like  this folder https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22184.0   or such as this link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Muslim_conquests


    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7416 - August 28, 2019, 09:50 AM

    Yeez,

    Islamic empires is too specific. We know that in the first decades there was not much Islamic to the expansion. And we know the timing is very much off.

    The Arabic expansion into Persia seems to have occurred a few years earlier than thought (see Pourasharia). And the Arab presence in China seems to have been established as such with an own ideology end 6th C, beginning 7th C. So a few decades too early. (Thanks Altara for the document  https://archive.org/details/islaminchinaane00broogoog/page/n124)

    This all points to something "Arabic/Saracen"brewing earlier than the supposed arrival of Mohammed.

    Together with the early Arabic papyri found in Egypt(!!! not in Syria or its neighborhood), I tend to think that the whole enterprise might have been trade related. Maybe the Arab/Saracen outposts were there already 6th C. Maybe there was the right milieu to accept a new ideology that might indeed have been nurtured in North Arabia.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7417 - August 28, 2019, 10:29 AM

    Quote
    How do you see the leadership during the "arab"expansion?


    One does not have any sources about the sociological structure of Arabs to say something about that. Military leaders are heirs of previous wars, with military experience, leader of tribes, etc.
    Quote
    I would think there was someone, a king, a general, a leader...or you can call him a prophet.


    Muawiya a prophet? He build mosques where people recite poems.(cf Tannous).

    Quote
    His name might not have been Mohammed, but there must have been someone


    There is "someone". In the Quranic texts. The "someone" is there and nowhere else. Like Jesus when Crusaders retake Jerusalem, they did not need him as a physical leader.Unless (of course) that I miss something and that Jesus was on Earth with them.
    It's rather mind-boggling that you do not realize the force of what is perceived as supernatural, transcendental by the mean of what is written and repeated to private Arab soldier. He never saw any "prophet" but he was sure that there was God who spoke Arabic to one figure or more or less something like that. An Arab one: like him.
    Every day all the world is convinced to buy this or that by advertisement, to believe to what they see, heard, and read in ads .And they believe because they buy did not they? (Maybe I miss something here, that companies just makes ads to feed the ad companies...)
    What is written and proclaimed to people at that time (and still today) works.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7418 - August 28, 2019, 12:09 PM

    I explain it in the sentence you quote  whistling2


    Yes. You explain all such clearly that it need years to understand Wink (Sorry to be not really intelligent like you)...

    Quote
    In this very example, you totally miss the point

     
     I miss all the point, see above...Wink

    Quote
    of what the text goal is

     

    ?

    Quote
    but it is normal ;though you stripped the meaning of the text of its islamic content, you still read it through the muslim narrative and take the meaning of the word in their islamic sense rather than what they truly mean.

     

    Abstract nonsense.
     
    Quote
    You mean like you do here  whistling2
    Examples ? Any other examples ?


    637 is sufficient. The nature of the event speak for itself  (date, etc) and has nothing to see with adding verses to a text whose no one knows when it was done, by who, etc. (Whereas it is, without doubt,  an addition... but you're unable to add another one to validate what it could appear to what you said : "Muslim have add many thing to link the texts with a prophet"...)
    You tie up two things which have nothing to see because of their nature and you do not even perceive it. Like the Bishapur coin with the figure of MBH.  But no one of the contemporary sources speak of that guy whereas they speak of others who were even not on coins. And that does not even trouble you. All is normal! Keep on ! You're an amateur Marc. You fool people here.

    Quote
    No I asked you to reply to this
    that you label as meagre and you haven't. So I ask again. Why is it meagre ?


    "Sectarian disputes" means nothing as it is not enlighten by sources ; none dates is meagre. It is nonsense statement as an argument to respond to the anti rabbinic and Christian stance in the text. You're really an amateur... The worst is you did not even realize it.

    Quote
    Unfortunately, you don't read and/or understand what I say.

     

    Because it is not understandable. Moreover, nobody apart me try to understand you thesis. Mundi just ask you about (very) detailed things. One word, one phrase.
    The rest, they do not address it. You do not even realized it.
     
    Quote
    It does show how your mind work and why you get many things wrong.


    Of course Wink Sebeos, John and the Amir, and MBH/Bishapur...

    Quote
    Deus is a great and bright guy who went through a ton of sources, some of which you have no clue they exist nor are interested in (as they don't fit your theory) but I can admit his narrative of the beginning of Islam shows confusion in his thoughts when trying to crack it ;  he still brings interesting stuff to the field.


    I'm interested in all sources. My issue is that a source has to be examined.Sebeos is the perfect example of this. You take it at face value (like Crone, Gallez ). I do not. I've said (already) why in many pages here. Same with John and the Amir. You were not able to articulate something convincing. Each time there are things which do not work in your thesis regarding these texts. Sebeos and John say something : "Yes yes what they say its true, yes yes... "
    You're an amateur.
     First there was Raymond Dequin  dance now it is the poor AJ... who read the Talmud in its own way and who is such incapable to make things clear, that (even!) you, you say that I can admit his narrative of the beginning of Islam shows confusion in his thoughts when trying to crack it .
    Hahaha! You fool yourself and you do not perceive it : you continue with AJ, etc.
    Is that a joke?
    Quote
    I said once on this forum that though sources seem to prove Muhammad existed, I don't believe in it and here I never mentioned what you said ; I only spoke about a prophet figure, not an actual living being.


    MBH is not the rasul on Bishapur coin?  The rasul is not the "prophet" then? MBH is not real?
    Of course (you never said that...)
    End of story.





  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7419 - August 28, 2019, 12:39 PM

    MBH and the Bishapur coin:

    Can anyone explain what the problem is?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7420 - August 28, 2019, 12:53 PM

    MBH and the Bishapur coin:

    Can anyone explain what the problem is?

     Cheesy Cheesy

    MBH = Massive Black Hole

    Bishapur coins  ..



    it means "Massive Black Holes in Islam through  Bishapur coins"

    Altara is a cryptic responder dear mundi  Cheesy

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7421 - August 28, 2019, 01:05 PM

    Yeez,

     Arabic expansion .........................

    So if I  may  expand those words.. THE TIME PERIOD OF ISLAM YOU ARE TRYING TO UNDERSTAND IS 1-100 AH / 622-719 CE.. or may be start from first revelation .. that is year 610...

    Quote
    610: The first revelation in the cave at Mt. Hira. The Holy Prophet is commissioned as the Messenger of God.
    613: Declaration at Mt. Sara inviting the general public to Islam.
    614: Invitation to the Hashimites to accept Islam.
    615: Persecution of the Muslims by the Quraish. A party of Muslims leaves for Abyssinia.
    616: Second Hijrah to Abysinnia.
    617: Social boycott of the Hashimites and the Holy Prophet by the Quraish. The Hashimites are shut up in a glen outside Makkah.
    619: Lifting of the boycott. Deaths of Abu Talib and Hadrat Khadija. Year of sorrow.
    620: Journey to Taif. Ascension to the heavens.
    621: First pledge at Aqaba.
    622: Second pledge at Aqaba. The Holy Prophet and the Muslims migrate to Yathrib.
    623: Nakhla expedition.
    624: Battle of Badr. Expulsion of the Bani Qainuqa Jews from Madina.
    625: Battle of Uhud. Massacre of 70 Muslims at Bir Mauna. Expulsion of Banu Nadir Jews from Madina. Second expedition of Badr.
    626: Expedition of Banu Mustaliq.
    627: Battle of the Trench. Expulsion of Banu Quraiza Jews.
    628: Truce of Hudaibiya. Expedition to Khyber. The Holy Prophet addresses letters to various heads of states.
    629: The Holy Prophet performs the pilgrimage at Makkah. Expedition to Muta (Romans).
    630: Conquest of Makkah. Battles of Hunsin, Auras, and Taif.
    631: Expedition to Tabuk. Year of Deputations.
    632: Farewell pilgrimage at Makkah.
    632: Death of the Holy Prophet.Election of Hadrat Abu Bakr as the Caliph. Usamah leads expedition to Syria. Battles of Zu Qissa and Abraq. Battles of Buzakha, Zafar and Naqra. Campaigns against Bani Tamim and Musailima, the Liar.
    633: Campaigns in Bahrain, Oman, Mahrah Yemen, and Hadramaut. Raids in Iraq. Battles of Kazima, Mazar, Walaja, Ulleis, Hirah, Anbar, Ein at tamr, Daumatul Jandal and Firaz.
    634: Battles of Basra, Damascus and Ajnadin. Death of Hadrat Abu Bakr. Hadrat Umar Farooq becomes the Caliph. Battles of Namaraq and Saqatia.
    635: Battle of Bridge. Battle of Buwaib. Conquest of Damascus. Battle of Fahl.
    636: Battle of Yermuk. Battle of Qadsiyia. Conquest of Madain.
    637: Conquest of Syria. Fall of Jerusalem. Battle of Jalula.
    638: Conquest of Jazirah.
    639: Conquest of Khuizistan. Advance into Egypt.
    640: Capture of the post of Caesaria in Syria. Conquest of Shustar and Jande Sabur in Persia. Battle of Babylon in Egypt.
    641: Battle of Nihawand. Conquest Of Alexandria in Egypt.
    642: Battle of Rayy in Persia. Conquest of Egypt. Foundation of Fustat.
    643: Conquest of Azarbaijan and Tabaristan (Russia).
    644: Conquest of Fars, Kerman, Sistan, Mekran and Kharan.[/u] Martyrdom of Hadrat Umar. Hadrat Othman becomes the Caliph.
    645: Campaigns in Fats.
    646: Campaigns in Khurasan, Armeain and Asia Minor.
    647: Campaigns in North Africa. Conquest of the island of Cypress.
    648: Campaigns against the Byzantines.
    651: Naval battle of the Masts against the Byzantines.
    652: Discontentment and disaffection against the rule of Hadrat Othman.
    656: Martyrdom of Hadrat Othman. Hadrat Ali becomes the Caliph. Battle of the Camel.
    657: Hadrat Ali shifts the capital from Madina to Kufa. Battle of Siffin. Arbitration proceedings at Daumaut ul Jandal.
    658: Battle of Nahrawan.
    659: Conquest of Egypt by Mu'awiyah.
    660: Hadrat Ali recaptures Hijaz and Yemen from Mu'awiyah. Mu'awiyah declares himself as the Caliph at Damascus.
    661: Martyrdom of Hadrat Ali. Accession of Hadrat Hasan and his abdication. Mu'awiyah becomes the sole Caliph.
    662: Khawarij revolts.
    666: Raid of Sicily.
    670: Advance in North Africa. Uqba b Nafe founds the town of Qairowan in Tunisia. Conquest of Kabul.
    672: Capture of the island of Rhodes. Campaigns in Khurasan.
    674: The Muslims cross the Oxus. Bukhara becomes a vassal state.
    677: Occupation of Sarnarkand and Tirmiz. Siege of Constantinople.
    680: Death of Muawiyah. Accession of Yazid. Tragedy of Kerbala and martyrdom of Hadrat Hussain.
    682: In North Africa Uqba b Nafe marches to the Atlantic, is ambushed and killed at Biskra. The Muslims evacuate Qairowan and withdraw to Burqa.
    683: Death of Yazid. Accession of Mu'awiyah II.
    684: Abdullah b Zubair declares himself aS the Caliph at'Makkah. Marwan I becomes the Caliph' at Damascus. Battle of Marj Rahat.
    685: Death of Marwan I. Abdul Malik becomes the Caliph at Damascus. Battle of Ain ul Wada.
    686: Mukhtar declares himself as the Caliph at Kufa.
    687: Battle of Kufa between the forces of Mukhtar and Abdullah b Zubair. Mukhtar killed.
    691: Battle of Deir ul Jaliq. Kufa falls to Abdul Malik.
    692: The fall of Makkah. Death of Abdullah b Zubair. Abdul Malik becomes the sole Caliph.
    695: Khawarij revolts in Jazira and Ahwaz. Battle of the Karun. Campaigns against Kahina in North Africa. The' Muslims once again withdraw to Barqa. The Muslims advance in Transoxiana and occupy Kish.
    700: Campaigns against the Berbers in North Africa.
    702: Ashath's rebellion in Iraq, battle of Deir ul Jamira.
    705: Death of Abdul Malik. Accession of Walid I as Caliph.
    711: Conquest of Spain, Sind and Transoxiana.
    712: The Muslims advance in Spain, Sind and Transoxiana.
    713: Conquest of Multan.
    715: Death of Walid I. Accession of Sulaiman.
    716: Invasion of Constantinople.
    717: Death of Sulaiman. Accession of Umar b Abdul Aziz.
    720: Death of Umar b Abdul Aziz. Accession of Yazid II.
    724: Death of Yazid II. Accession of Hisham.
    725: The Muslims occupy Nimes in France.
    732: The battle of Tours in France. ...


    do you consider  that time line as  Arabic expansion dear mundi?  .. by the way .. IS THAT ARABIC EXPANSION  means .. Arabic langue expansion  or Arabs expanding in to far way lands?


    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7422 - August 28, 2019, 02:02 PM

    Cheesy Cheesy

    MBH = Massive Black Hole

    Bishapur coins  ..

    (Clicky for piccy!)

    it means "Massive Black Holes in Islam through  Bishapur coins"
    Altara is a cryptic responder dear mundi  Cheesy

    This one Yeez :
    https://www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/coins/drachm1

    One have already got this discussion with Marc one or two years ago. He hold that the "rasul" in this coin is not the one of the Quran, but Muhammad al Hannafiyah (d.700) :
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_ibn_al-Hanafiyyah
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7423 - August 28, 2019, 02:45 PM

    Bishapur coins:

    Yes Mark, can you expand this topic? Seems interesting proposal.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7424 - August 28, 2019, 05:57 PM


    637 is sufficient. The nature of the event speak for itself  (date, etc)



    What I understand is that you have one thing that you linked and you are basing your whole thesis on that. You are like Gallez and you are stuck with it. If they had Quranic texts and were acting according to them, you would find many examples but you have none.  whistling2


    Quote
    and has nothing to see with adding verses to a text whose no one knows


    If you want to discuss about interpolations in the Quran, you can read the Sunni/Shia ahadith ......or Gallez. I stated many times here that the quranic text meaning was bent by tafseer and artificially linked with the Sira so mentionning one interpolation of the Sira into the Quran is not my main issue.

    Quote
    "Sectarian disputes" means nothing as it is not enlighten by sources


    The source is the Quran

    Quote
    ; none dates is meagre. It is nonsense statement as an argument to respond to the anti rabbinic and Christian stance in the text. You're really an amateur... The worst is you did not even realize it.


    You pretend to be a scholar so I will ask this again : why is it meagre and I expect a scholarly reply, not derogatory comments showing your opinion but nothing more.

     

    Quote
    I'm interested in all sources. My issue is that a source has to be examined.Sebeos is the perfect example of this. You take it at face value (like Crone, Gallez ).


    So I take Sebeos at face value but I said on this forum that, despite sources talking about Muhammad leading the conquests as Sebeos does, I don't believe he ever existed.


    Quote
    now it is the poor AJ... who read the Talmud in its own way and who is such incapable to make things clear, that (even!) you, you say that I can admit his narrative of the beginning of Islam shows confusion in his thoughts when trying to crack it .


    So you advise to read Gallez despite the fact you don't agree with his thesis but you think there are however some interesting things in his work but you criticize me when I say Deus is interesting for the sources he brings despite the fact his nazrrative of islamic origins is foggy.  wacko wacko wacko wacko wacko wacko

    I guess it is a rational and logical conclusion per ypour definition of it whistling2

    Quote
    MBH is not the rasul on Bishapur coin?  The rasul is not the "prophet" then? MBH is not real?
    Of course (you never said that...)
    Like the Bishapur coin with the figure of MBH.  But no one of the contemporary sources speak of that guy whereas they speak of others who were even not on coins. And that does not even trouble you.



    This is what I said so I cannot help you if you see things that I didn't write

    Quote
    My current thought is that the Mahdi was the Muhammad and this was a thinking that was prevalent when the Bishapur coin was minted. Raymond Dequin doesn't state Muhammad ibn al Haniffiya was a real figure neither, 


    I hope you NOW understand how the word highlighted relate to the sentence and to my opinion on the topic whistling2






  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7425 - August 28, 2019, 06:13 PM

    Bishapur coins:

    Yes Mark, can you expand this topic? Seems interesting proposal.


    I only wondered why :

    - the first Muhammad coin appeared in 685/686, and not where the center of arab power was supposed to be (we now know that Ibn Al Zubayr was the right ruler and Abd al Malik the usurper though)
    - why the Mahdi figure seem to be first linked with Shias,
    - why there is this Muhammad ibn al Hanifiyya character in the muslim writings and his link with the Mahdi,
    - why is there this connection between Muhammad and the Mahdi at the end of time
    - why is the Mahdi absent from the Quran

    That is all.

    So I wondered, and still do, if this Muhammad figure was not meant to represent the Mahdi, and then later evolved into something else under muslim narrative.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7426 - August 28, 2019, 08:11 PM


    What I understand is that you have one thing


    What you call "one thing" is an event including concrete stuff. Link it to Quranic text is a Gallez idea. And I think he's right.
    Quote
    that you linked and you are basing your whole thesis on that.


    At all. I refute your theory to explain differently this event with what Gallez point out. Nuance... You (still) did not arrive to articulate an understandable response of my refutation.

    Quote
    If they had Quranic texts


    I never said they had Quranic texts. They had some, maybe a few. They were not specifically Muslim, Islam did not exist at that time. What Gallez has pointed out is interesting, and I think he's right about that.

    Quote
    If you want to discuss about interpolations in the Quran, you can read the Sunni/Shia ahadith ......or Gallez. I stated many times here that the Quranic text meaning was bent by tafsir and artificially linked with the Sira so mentioning one interpolation of the Sira into the Quran is not my main issue.


    I follow my own private tafsir.



    Quote
    The source is the Quran


    A source cannot be the studied object . Circular reasoning. A child can understand that. You cannot.
    "Sectarian disputes" means nothing as it is not enlighten by sources whose the role is to validate the affirmation. In this case the affirmation is "Sectarian disputes". Therefore it has no value ... It is nonsense statement as an argument to respond to the anti rabbinic and Christian stance in the text. You're really an amateur... The worst is you did not even realize it.

    Quote
    You pretend to be a scholar so I will ask this again : why is it meagre and I expect a scholarly reply, not derogatory comments showing your opinion but nothing more.


    Read above.

     
    Quote
    So I take Sebeos at face value but I said on this forum that, despite sources talking about Muhammad leading the conquests as Sebeos does, I don't believe he ever existed.


    You very know that it is not that precise topic that I point out when I say that you take him at face value.

    Quote
    So you advise to read Gallez despite the fact you don't agree with his thesis


    Yes because I pretend to be a (real) scholar with no exclusive.I think I was relatively well trained but I'm not a Catholic priest with the idiosyncrasies that go with it.

    Quote
    but you think there are however some interesting things in his work but you criticize me when I say Deus is interesting for the sources he brings despite the fact his narrative of islamic origins is foggy.

     

    AJ is not trained to do what he does. At least, Gallez is. That is the difference. I realize that, for you, there is none.How old are you? What is your cursus? It commence to be interesting, you states thing that a non educated adolescent could state.



    Quote
    This is what I said so I cannot help you if you see things that I didn't write. My current thought is that the Mahdi was the Muhammad and this was a thinking that was prevalent when the Bishapur coin was minted.


    Is the Mahdi real? If not, Dequin speaks of ghosts : Muhammad and him. Then who is MBH?








  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7427 - August 28, 2019, 08:17 PM

    Why all this animosity?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7428 - August 28, 2019, 08:41 PM

    This one Yeez :
    https://www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/coins/drachm1

    ...............................

    Altara gives a link  that often used to defend Islam,  Prophet of Islam well that was over 20 years ago...  any ways  that link says...

    Quote
    Assalamu ʿalaykum wa rahamatullahi wa barakatuhu

     https://www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/coins/images/dont_copy_please.png

    Drachm of ʿAbd al-Malik ibn ʿAbd Allāh, Zubayrid governor of Bīshāpūr, 66 AH / 685-6 CE 

    ..

    yes................ Allāh............Allāh..............Allāh........................Allāh ................................ RasulAllah...................

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7429 - August 28, 2019, 08:46 PM

    I only wondered why :

    - the first Muhammad coin appeared in 685/686, and not where the center of arab power was supposed to be (we now know that Ibn Al Zubayr was the right ruler and Abd al Malik the usurper though)


    Therefore the origin of the power is Iraq...
    Quote
    - why the Mahdi figure seem to be first linked with Shias,


    Because Iraq is the origin.

    Quote
    - why there is this Muhammad ibn al Hanifiyya character in the muslim writings and his link with the Mahdi,

    Because he is (maybe) the one to bear two names from Quranic texts.
    Quote
    - why is there this connection between Muhammad and the Mahdi at the end of time

    Muslim own speculation from what they heard from the religious milieu where they are : Iraq.
    Quote
    - why is the Mahdi absent from the Quran


    Because the eschatological redeemer is a Muslim eschatological speculation/invention, copying more or less Christian stuff, etc, not a Quranic one.The Quran has nothing to see with the narrative they invented from it : the frame Mecca/Zem Zem/Kaba/Muhammad has never existed even if they believed in it.

    Quote
    That is all.

    So I wondered, and still do, if this Muhammad figure was not meant to represent the Mahdi, and then later evolved into something else under muslim narrative.


    If "this Muhammad figure was not meant to represent the Mahdi," it would mean that Muhammad would have been an eschatological redeemer. Is he portrayed like this in the Quran ? At all.Of course you could, like Gallez, inventing a new Quran where a Mahdi was portrayed and was erased later by Muslims to become a "Muhammad" Prophet of Islam, etc. You can discuss this with AJ and Gallez. Personally I stop here.
    You could write a novel with this stuff.

    The "Mahdi" is the first Muslim narrative elaboration of a redeemer which will end with the narrative of Jesus coming back with him copied from the Christian narrative (where Jesus is of course alone...)
    Muslim need a redeemer to be like the Jews and the Christians. Since the Quran have nothing about that and since there was since the middle of the 6th c. an apocalyptic atmosphere due to many events (google is your friend) the idea of the end of the world therefore the coming of Jesus or the Jewish Messiah was in the air and have impacted also Arabic mentality which was Christian. It is when,having a holy book, but constating that there was no Messiah/Mahdi/ whatever  in it, they got the need to have one like the others got one. I think the reason of the emergence of the Mahdi and later coming back of Jesus is this one, the simplest : Occam is your friend.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7430 - August 29, 2019, 10:54 AM

    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/Safaitic/status/1166762598445932544
    Quote
    Is there any way of telling what type of Aramaic informs most of the Aramaic borrowings/forms in Quranic Arabic?

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7431 - August 29, 2019, 01:24 PM

    Quote
    and indeed two alternative Arabian months are attested pre-Islamically at Najrān, burak and al-muʾtamar, despite the fact that the Era is of the Roman province of Arabia.

    Interesting...
    Date? Made by locals or travellers?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7432 - August 29, 2019, 06:05 PM

    Translation of Byzantine-Arab chronicle from Latin to English:

    -First mention of Mecca with wrong geolocation

    -Different chronology for life of Mahmet and others compared to the traditional narrative


    http://www.aymennjawad.org/23129/the-byzantine-arabic-chronicle-full-translation
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7433 - August 29, 2019, 06:20 PM

    I will just say 3 things to close this ridiculous discussion


    What you call "one thing" is an event including concrete stuff. Link it to Quranic text is a Gallez idea. And I think he's right.


    For the link between 2.127 and Arabs building something on the Temple Mount, there is ZERO link. If there was a link, you would :

    - provide their goal for them doing this (what do they expect from it),
    - and show how that goal can be found in 2.127 that you say inspire them

    You haven't done that, and that is the basic thing to do. I also don't understand why you quote Gallez who has a totally different explanation for this, on which you don't agree.

    Maybe you have a better case for stating this opinion but, so far, you haven't articulated it so that it does sound possible apart for you.

    Quote
    "Sectarian disputes" means nothing as it is not enlighten by sources whose the role is to validate the affirmation. In this case the affirmation is "Sectarian disputes". Therefore it has no value ... It is nonsense statement as an argument to respond to the anti rabbinic and Christian stance in the text. You're really an amateur... The worst is you did not even realize it.


    The source is the Quran as it is in there that the word believer is defined. From that definition and other parts of the book, you understand that Christian and Jews are believers. Therefore, when the Quran criticize some specific behaviours and/or doctrina items of Jews and Christians, it perfectly fit the concepot of intra sectarian disputes.

    You can disagree but you need to provide solid counter-arguments and a counter-theory,  and you have failed to do so.

     
    Quote
    If "this Muhammad figure was not meant to represent the Mahdi," it would mean that Muhammad would have been an eschatological redeemer. Is he portrayed like this in the Quran ? At all.Of course you could, like Gallez, inventing a new Quran where a Mahdi was portrayed and was erased later by Muslims to become a "Muhammad" Prophet of Islam, etc. You can discuss this with AJ and Gallez. Personally I stop here.


    I never implied that you need to link the Mahdi with the Quran. But you did take my question "why is the Mahdi not in the Quran" and you interpreted it your own way without thinking.

    If I ask this question, knowing that I already said here a lot of the Islamic religion is not in the Quran or that Muhammad has nothing to do with the Quran, it is for another reason that you failed to see because your thesis about Islam prevent you to look in a different direction. I won't elaborate more as you need to look for yourself, 
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7434 - August 29, 2019, 06:26 PM

    Translation of Byzantine-Arab chronicle from Latin to English:



    The description of Yazid is very interesting especially when you compare it to how he is described in muslim books ; that says a lot  Wink

    For Mecca, I think the author deducted a location from what he was told rather than being told what the location was. So people looking for Mecca in that place would be not find anything from my point of view.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7435 - August 29, 2019, 06:35 PM

    Byzantine-arab chronicle:

    Mecca: one of the biblical locations for home of Abraham is taken here.

    Mahmet: Interesting that again Mohammed is not used

    First "troubles" seem to be a Saracen uprising, not invasion
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7436 - August 29, 2019, 07:23 PM

    Quote
    Translation of Byzantine-Arab chronicle from Latin to English:

    -First mention of Mecca with wrong geolocation

    -Different chronology for life of Mahmet and others compared to the traditional narrative


    http://www.aymennjawad.org/23129/the-byzantine-arabic-chronicle-full-translation

    Byzantine-arab chronicle:

    Mecca: one of the biblical locations for home of Abraham is taken here.

    Mahmet: Interesting that again Mohammed is not used

    First "troubles" seem to be a Saracen uprising, not invasion


    my goodness  gracious........ where is the link for that 2nd post dear mundi ? who said/where did you get this?  what link
    Quote
    Mecca: one of the biblical locations for home of Abraham is taken here.


    your posts are really smart out of the world...and    how do you know this guy ?


    ........Aymenn Jawad Al-Tamimi.. .....

    Are you reading /watching him often??

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7437 - August 29, 2019, 07:29 PM

    Wow Yeez, I seem to be in pretty bad company!


    I don't think his Latin-English translation contains a hidden jihadi message so we can use it?

    My second post is just info I picked up reading the translation and of what I previously read of the Mecca location...

    Here a link on the biblical Abraham: http://www.israel-a-history-of.com/story-of-abraham.html
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7438 - August 29, 2019, 07:32 PM

      Wow Yeez, I seem to be in pretty bad company!


    I don't think his Latin-English translation contains a hidden jihadi message so we can use it?

    My second post is just info I picked up reading the translation and of what I previously read of the Mecca location...

    that was NOT needed dear mundi...  PLEASE EDIT / DELETE IT but that Latin book



    I am sure some one else must  have translated it not just this guy .. Well he goes around Shia Islam .. Sunni Islam.. HIS OWN ISLAM .. any way that is a different game but I wonder whether that edited booklet of 1973 from Madrid is on line ??

    I see...

    Quote
    The Byzantine-Arabic Chronicle: Full Translation and Analysis by Aymenn Jawad Al-Tamimi   August 29, 2019

    The Byzantine-Arabic Chronicle stands out for being an early Latin language text that partly describes the rise of Islam and some of the early Muslim conquests. The original text is included in a collection of writings called Corpus Scriptorum Muzarabicorum ("Corpus of Mozarabic Writings") compiled by Juan Gil.


    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7439 - August 29, 2019, 07:53 PM

    Yeez,

    Do you know Latin? bc that booklet is the Latin text I think. I prefer the English translation...
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