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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6870 - June 02, 2019, 02:24 PM

    Quote
    all muslims today use the book to memorize the Quran.Just as they did in the beginning.


    Of course. I explained why Muslims hold to the oral tradition: the Quran says it is oral, and it was needed to back up who got the good reading.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6871 - June 02, 2019, 04:08 PM

    I've read many things . Explain to me why "Marc" would have sources that none scholars talk about?


    You need to ask them but that Abd Al Malik might have been an usurper is nothing new to the field of islamic studies if one has done his homework ; in this book, the author talk about the rebellion of Abd al Malik

    https://www.amazon.com/Abd-al-Malik-Makers-Muslim-World/dp/1851685073

    You need to educate yourself on the topic.

    Quote
    Especially sources that you ask to search 6 month ago in a forum because you do not want to re give them. Why?  Because one have to search for the Graal.


    No I gave a specific source, not for someone to ask the same question again, and probably again in a few months. So the source is on the forum ; it will take you 5 mns to find it.

    Quote
    The sources you have can be explained otherwise, they are not specific to what you think which is a construction backed up by Volker Popp and Raymond Dequin.  Scholars who inspire you.


    It has nothing to do with them. You are just making conjecture because of your narrative, like Gallez. 



    Quote
    But for me this stuff (calendar) are details.


    The calendar of a new "religion"/group of people is never a detail for a scholar. It does tell a lot about it/them.


    Quote
    As you do not want to say what you're talking about... I'm sure that it can contradict all what you want. Am I right?


    So you don't know about the issue of the dating of the battle of Dhi Qar ; you haven't been doing your homework then and it is surprising because I gave you a link on the topic a few months ago. It seems you don't read or you don't care when it goes agains your narrative. After reading it, you shouldn't be mentionning Dhi Qar as the start of the muslim calendar or even as the start of the Arab-Sassanian conflict (Pourshariati has another explanation for that).

    Quote
    Subsequently, at an indeterminate date, an open clash between the Persians and their Arab auxiliaries, on one hand, and Arab tribesmen, on the other, occurred at Ḏū Qār. According to certain Muslim traditions, the battle took place in the year 1/623 or 2/624 (Ḥellī, pp. 158, 192). Ebn Ḥabīb (p. 360) dated it earlier, between 606 and 622, but modern scholars have narrowed this range to 604-11 (Rothstein, p. 123; Caussin de Perceval, p. 184; Bosworth, p. 608).


    Quote
    Some scholars, apparently influenced by the Muslim tradition (e.g., Ḥellī, p. 422; Yaʿqūbī, II, p. 46), have interpreted the battle of Ḏū Qār as part of a prolonged Arab rebellion against the Persians, which culminated in the Muslim conquest of the Persian empire. As Šaybānī tribesmen, led by Moṯannā b. Ḥāreṯa, assisted in the conquest of Iraq, it has been argued that the Bakr, and especially the Šaybān, had followed a distinct anti-Sasanian policy since Ḏū Qār. Fred Donner has shown (pp. 28-30), however, that the Šaybān who supported the Muslims and those who were prominent at Ḏū Qār belonged to different, even rival clans; some Šaybānī leaders allied themselves with the Persians after Ḏū Qār, and others even opposed the Muslims during the conquest of Iraq. The battle of Ḏū Qār thus appears to have had ideological and symbolic meaning for the Arabs far beyond its military and political significance.


    In summary, no "grounded" sources to state that :

    - Dhi Qar is the start of the Arab calendar,
    - Dhi Qar is the start to the Arab/Sassanian war







  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6872 - June 02, 2019, 04:37 PM

    I was right (yawn...)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6873 - June 02, 2019, 05:04 PM

    Quote


    all  those who yawn.,  .....who are yawning ...... who are sleeping and typing like me .........   Cheesy   and those who are participating and reading this folder must read  this site...

    https://attwiw.com/islamic-history-series-2/

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6874 - June 02, 2019, 08:38 PM

    but that Abd Al Malik might have been an usurper is nothing new to the field of islamic studies if one has done his homework ; in this book, the author talk about the rebellion of Abd al Malik

    https://www.amazon.com/Abd-al-Malik-Makers-Muslim-World/dp/1851685073


    Yes and?


    Quote
    You need to educate yourself on the topic.


    You are my teacher. With Volker Popp and  dance Raymond Dequin

    Quote
    No I gave a specific source, not for someone to ask the same question again, and probably again in a few months. So the source is on the forum ; it will take you 5 mns to find it.


    You're acting as a child.

    Quote
    The calendar of a new "religion"/group of people is never a detail for a scholar. It does tell a lot about it/them.


    In this case, it is a detail.

    Quote
    So you don't know about the issue of the dating of the battle of Dhi Qar

     

     I'm not wasting my time about the date which is not grounded.


    Quote
    ; you haven't been doing your homework then and it is surprising because I gave you a link on the topic a few months ago. It seems you don't read or you don't care when it goes agains your narrative.

     

    When it is grounded surely not. This link has surely not change my mind. Each time you bring something, other explications can be found. You still not get it.
    Arabs in Sinai
    Sebeos
    John and the Amir
    Each time another explication can be indicated rationally, logically.

    Quote
    After reading it, you shouldn't be mentioning Dhi Qar as the start of the muslim calendar or even as the start of the Arab-Sassanian conflict (Pourshariati has another explanation for that).


    More, you do not even read what say some posts before.
    1/It could, but it has no importance (for me...)
    2/ the war has started before 622.

    Quote
    In summary, no "grounded" sources to state that :

    1/- Dhi Qar is the start of the Arab calendar,
    2/- Dhi Qar is the start to the Arab/Sassanian war


    1/-It could, but it has no importance (for me...)
    2/ the war has started before 622.





  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6875 - June 03, 2019, 04:00 PM

    Circumvented, hypnotised by the master narrative (the frame Mecca/Medina/Muhammad /Kaba) because it highlights someone like them (an important gimmick regularly outlined in the Quran) who were in contact with God,  it  is perfectly possible that most of the literati who wrote their history did not even realize that the war and the subsequent conquest that they  think coming from the frame Mecca/Medina/Muhammad /Kaba (in good faith, there is no plot) could come from an internal Iraqi issue, as Dhu Qar is attesting.

     They were such hypnotized and circumvented that, as the Quran recounts it, one of them was contacted by God, that mentioning Dhu Qar (and islamizing it) did not appear to them to be dangerous regarding the tale they recounted (Mecca/Medina/Muhammad /Kaba) as the origin of the conquest.
    Why dangerous?
    Because it gives another explication about the war and the subsequent conquest.  Explication which have nothing to do with the master narrative.
    Explication which, for a scholar, seems much more logical considering  all the sources he have regarding the historical context.
    Not only this historical context, but also all what does not work (archaeologically, scribally, epigraphically contextually (nobody knows Mecca/Medina, etc contrary to what displays of these the master narrative)) with the master narrative.

    It is even much more ironic because one knows Dhu Qar only by Muslims sources. It is Muslims which give this event. Whatever can be its date (it has no importance, whatever it was transformed in "hijra" or not) this event (large or not battle) is a key point to assert that what is the "official" history of Islam is inexact considering what is affirmed in the master narrative which have no archaeologically, scribally, epigraphically and contextually historical grounds.
    But the important consequence is the Quranic texts which emerge around necessarily in the the known places and not from the  barren Western peninsula moon-like.
    Is the guys of Dhu Qar (whatever it's date...yawn) already in contact  with Quranic texts. Why not, but it is conjecture. No need of them to fight the idolatrous Persians (hahaha!)

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6876 - June 03, 2019, 09:56 PM

    Explication which, for a scholar, seems much more logical considering  all the sources he have regarding the historical context.


    Seem, much more logical = conjecture (again yawn)


    It is funny to compare your statement with this one.


    Quote
    Some scholars, apparently influenced by the Muslim tradition (e.g., Ḥellī, p. 422; Yaʿqūbī, II, p. 46 muslim scholars ), have interpreted the battle of Ḏū Qār as part of a prolonged Arab rebellion against the Persians, which culminated in the Muslim conquest of the Persian empire . As Šaybānī tribesmen, led by Moṯannā b. Ḥāreṯa, assisted in the conquest of Iraq, it has been argued that the Bakr, and especially the Šaybān, had followed a distinct anti-Sasanian policy since Ḏū Qār. Fred Donner has shown (pp. 28-30), however, that the Šaybān who supported the Muslims and those who were prominent at Ḏū Qār belonged to different, even rival clans; some Šaybānī leaders allied themselves with the Persians after Ḏū Qār, and others even opposed the Muslims during the conquest of Iraq. The battle of Ḏū Qār thus appears to have had ideological and symbolic meaning for the Arabs far beyond its military and political significance.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6877 - June 04, 2019, 04:56 PM

    Quote
    Seem, much more logical = conjecture (again yawn)


    Not only this historical context, but also all what does not work (archaeologically, scribally, epigraphically contextually (nobody knows Mecca/Medina, etc contrary to what displays of these the master narrative)) with the master narrative.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6878 - June 07, 2019, 06:06 AM

    Here is an interesting thread on Twitter. Marijn van Putten states that there are about 1000 words in the Quran that will have dottings disputes. I assume that the variations are in the consonantal skeleton.  Jay Smith and his team found about 50 000 variations in about 30 different Arabic Qurans, which they bought in shops in several places around the world. I guess the differences they found, include the vowels. Much of this information must be quite new, at least to most Muslims, because a comparison of the oldest Quranic manuscripts has probably never been done before the 21. century.  As you probably know, the Cairo edition from 1924 doesn't build on the oldest manuscripts, but mainly on Al-Dani`s work from the middle age.
    In a personal communication on Facebook, Dan Brubaker said yesterday, that the corrections he found, probably were done both early and late.
    Based on this information, is it then correct to say that the rasm crystallized in the late 7th century? Or should we look on the Quran as an "open book", that is still evolving?

    orbii:
    "Quran has 80 k words. If 8k have variants ( 10pc), about 1000 words will have dotting disputes. Correct?"



     



    Marijn van Putten

     
    @PhDniX:
     
    "That's about right. Melchert at the time did a randomized sampling technique to find variants rather than going through the whole thing. In the future I'll hope to have a database of the variants of the seven reading at least, and I'll be able to give you absolute numbers. :-)"



    orbi:

     "
    But that is quite significant imo. These 1000 consonant variants don't include eg passive- active variants which also often influence the meaning...."


    https://twitter.com/kwo_vadis/status/1133412655778205696

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6879 - June 07, 2019, 06:55 AM

    Nothing new here (yawn...).
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6880 - June 07, 2019, 08:10 AM

    Here is an interesting thread on Twitter. Marijn van Putten states that there are about 1000 words in the Quran that will have dottings disputes. I assume that the variations are in the consonantal skeleton.  Jay Smith and his team found about 50 000 variations in about 30 different Arabic Qurans, which they bought in shops in several places around the world. I guess the differences they found, include the vowels. Much of this information must be quite new, at least to most Muslims, because a comparison of the oldest Quranic manuscripts has probably never been done before the 21. century.  As you probably know, the Cairo edition from 1924 doesn't build on the oldest manuscripts, but mainly on Al-Dani`s work from the middle age.
    In a personal communication on Facebook, Dan Brubaker said yesterday, that the corrections he found, probably were done both early and late.
    Based on this information, is it then correct to say that the rasm crystallized in the late 7th century? Or should we look on the Quran as an "open book", that is still evolving?

    orbii:
    "Quran has 80 k words. If 8k have variants ( 10pc), about 1000 words will have dotting disputes. Correct?"
    Marijn van Putten
    @PhDniX:
    "That's about right. Melchert at the time did a randomized sampling technique to find variants rather than going through the whole thing. In the future I'll hope to have a database of the variants of the seven reading at least, and I'll be able to give you absolute numbers. :-)"
    orbi:
     "But that is quite significant imo. These 1000 consonant variants don't include eg passive- active variants which also often influence the meaning...."
    https://twitter.com/kwo_vadis/status/1133412655778205696


    It would be (yawn...) interesting to see the reaction of MVP and al. on twitter about the embarrassed statements of Melchert regarding  the "dialectal argument" used by Muslims to explain the qirāʾāt who (him) seems embarrassed to say what his brain tells him to say (1+1=2) :
    “ I mentioned this issue of dialects because it’s popular among modern Muslims to say that the difference among the readings go back to the different dialects, and I say no that’s not supported by the evidence […] it turns out that the disagreement among these different readings to the Quran […] do not have to do with dialectal differences and this is confirmed actually by literature about the readings, we have books that explain that justify the different readings; they will say: ‘well, this reading implies such and such, this other reading implies such: this reading makes the verb active, this reading makes the verb passive […],’ they do not appeal to transmission history and they very seldom appeal to dialect.”
    “Branigin Lecturer”, You tube video platform, 2017.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6881 - June 07, 2019, 09:19 AM

    Quran:

    The rasm seems to have found closure quite early. Closure doesn't seem to be absolute. Just as Van putten calls the 1000 consonants that have been changed  an "insignificant" number, maybe the thousands of corrections Brubaker found are also an "insignificant"number? I don't know if Brubaker found that these early manuscripts modifications were transmitted up to Al Dani (981 AD)? Or did they die out and was the "older" variant passed on?  In that case the dating is extremely important. Which was first?

    Smith has found 10 000's of variations. I just wonder how much variation existed pre 1924? That would somehow be indicative of how stable the transmission can have been from the 630's to Al Dani 300 years later.

    It is strange that every sect seems to accept the Quranic set back to Al-Dani 981. Van Putten shows that there were an almost unlimited amount of variant readings circulating at the time. Many more than the canonical ones.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6882 - June 07, 2019, 09:36 AM

    Smith is stupid. Again, nothing new (yawn...).
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6883 - June 07, 2019, 09:55 AM

    Smith:

    Smith might be stupid, but at least he is doing the work checking these Qurans.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6884 - June 07, 2019, 09:56 AM

    Yeah, bad, misleading work.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6885 - June 07, 2019, 10:01 AM

    Smith:

    He is wrong with his counted variants?

    It seems like a habit:

    Gibson is stupid, so is Smith.
    Durie is an islamophobe, so don't look at his work... Where will we get the info from? Is there a list of acceptable scholars?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6886 - June 07, 2019, 10:08 AM

    I regularly cite Islamophobes. That's not an issue. It's just that Smith is stupid, ignorant, does misleading and poor work, and best of all, he does not do his own research.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6887 - June 07, 2019, 10:55 AM

    The most important (for me...)as an historian  is that Mechert give, even embarrassed, the coup de grâce to the acceptation of the Muslims narrative as historically true regarding the transmission of the Quran.
    There is no "oral" transmission. This is settled by the use of one device : the brain.
    Mechert is an historian, and not a young scholar, I think he was fed up of all the cowardice (?), incompetence (?) of his colleagues and has decided to say the logical truth about this religious dogma which is a key point of the narrative, maybe the most important one,  and which is swallowed by scholars without question it because it would question all the narrative recounted by 9th Muslim narrative about the Quranic emergence. It would be then very dangerous for them, as they are all hold by many ties (career, money, etc) especially the ties with private donors to the academic institution which prevent them to be free.
    It is not then surprising to see Melchert in a public institution (Oxford) where he can (until when?) work freely. I'm not really sure that it would have been possible for him (he is American)  to state what he states belonging to an American institution.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NgSVl9rJqQ
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6888 - June 07, 2019, 10:57 AM

    Smith is stupid. Again, nothing new (yawn...).


    Attacking personally someone, i.e,  ad hominem... is not a scholarly attitude (yawn...)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6889 - June 07, 2019, 11:01 AM

    I regularly cite Islamophobes. That's not an issue. It's just that Smith is stupid, ignorant, does misleading and poor work, and best of all, he does not do his own research.


    I do not think  that Jay Smith is "islamophobe"...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6890 - June 07, 2019, 12:10 PM

    I don't attach any importance to the term, but descriptively, Smith is an Islamophobe.

    It is not an ad hom. I am not rejecting his claims due to his person. Rather, I can refute him. And he is stupid and dishonest.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6891 - June 07, 2019, 01:53 PM

    It should be easy to find out if there are about 30 different Arabic Qurans in the bookshops with thousands of spelling variants. If so is the case, how come there are so many variants? It is probably not because of different dialects but has other reasons. I know that there are 7 canonical readings, but how many non- canonical readings are there? Since Islam does not have a pope, who decides what is canonical or not? Are there several canonical Qurans? According to Gabriel S. Reynolds, the al- Azhar concluded in 1924 with two different Qurans. One of them they kept and one was sunken in the Nile. What do we know of the one that was thrown away?
    If there are 1000 spelling variants in the rasm, are they major or just small differences?

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6892 - June 07, 2019, 02:02 PM

    Small variants. I have something on this, summarizing the scholarly opinion
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6893 - June 07, 2019, 02:10 PM

    Variants:

    Obviously not whole sentences are changed. The rasm is stable. But as Jay Smith shows with examples, the meaning can differ a lot.

    I think if pre 1924 Qurans were examined, a lot more Qurans would surface than the 30 Jay Smith has found. Without any central organisation and the different sects, readings must have varied without being "called back"to medieval readings documented in hundreds of books like Melchert mentioned.

    What I wonder is, how come eg Shia just accepted the 1924 Quran? Do their pre-1924 Qurans differ substantially? Has anyone looked into it?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6894 - June 07, 2019, 02:10 PM

    No. Same with Shiites.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6895 - June 07, 2019, 02:14 PM

    Sjites:

    Did you check with a pre-1924 Quran?

    How do you know if some of Jay Smiths Qurans don't come from the Shia realm?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6896 - June 07, 2019, 02:15 PM

    If the nature of their variant are the same as that of Sunnis?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6897 - June 07, 2019, 02:17 PM

    Shia Quran:

    Question is how much does it differ from the 1924 Cairo Quran.

    And follow up: does it differ in the same way as the pre 1924 Sunni Qurans. Or is there a specific pre 1924 tradition for both sects.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6898 - June 07, 2019, 02:19 PM

    Quote
    ............... descriptively, Smith is an Islamophobe...............
    I regularly cite Islamophobes. ............................


    ........Gibson is stupid, so is Smith...........
    Durie is an islamophobe, so don't look at his work...............







    Quote
    ........Smith was born in India to Brethren in Christ missionaries and attended Woodstock School in India. His grandparents were also missionaries.[1][2] He earned a B.A. from Messiah College and then a masters of Divinity from Eastern Baptist Theological Seminary in apologetics.[1][3][4] He has also earned an M.A. in Islamics from the Fuller Theological Seminary, and a PhD in apologetics and Polemics from the Melbourne School of Theology.

    Focus on Islam

    In 1981, while studying for his masters, Smith attended a seminar on Islam and noting that there were only 1,500 Christians ministering to Muslims worldwide, he decided to become a missionary to the Muslim world and pursued a second master's degree in Islamic studies from Fuller Theological Seminary.[1]

    In 1987, Smith moved to Senegal as a missionary and in 1992, he moved to London[1] where he continued his education at the School of Oriental and African Studies[5][6] and the London School of Theology In 2001, he halted his education to concentrate on apologetics following a series of Islamic terrorist attacks, including the attack of September 11, 2001.[1]

    In 2010, Smith resumed work on his Ph.D at the Melbourne School of Theology which he completed in March of 2017[1] He helped run the Hyde Park Christian Fellowship, which emphasises the use of Polemics with Muslims alongside Apologetics,[1][2] and has made appearances at Speakers Corner in Hyde Park, London[1][7][8][9] for over 24 years. Smith also engages in formal public debates with prominent Muslim apologists and scholars including Omar Bakri Muhammad, Azzam Tamimi[3], Shabir Ally[10][11], Anjem Choudary[4], Abdur Raheem Green[6] and Edip Yüksel[5]and South African Muslim apologist Yusuf Ismail on peace and violence in the Qur'an and the Bible.

    Quote
      Smith believes that although both Islam and Christianity include radicals, moderates, and liberals, it is radical Muslims that commit violence as they take the Qur’an seriously, while radical Christians who also take the Bible seriously serve others in love. He claims that radical Muslims model their lives on Muhammad, while radical Christians model their lives on Jesus Christ.[11] Smith believes the growth in radical Islam in Britain is due to disaffected Muslims, often minimally religious, returning to their Islamic roots.

    He says that after reading the Islamic scriptures, (the Qur'an in conjunction with the hadith, tafsir, and sira), they come to the conclusion that the Salafi/Athari understanding is the true form of Islam.[2] Smith also believes that although Western actions in the Islamic world can instigate Muslim discontent, it is the Islamic scriptures that encourage the violence. He also rues the fact that moderate Muslims are not able to challenge the radicals using scripture because he believes the radicals have the scriptural authority.[2] Smith believes that ultimately Muslims and others will realize that the Muslim scriptures, coupled with the example of their prophet Muhammad are irrelevant to modern times.[2
    ]


    Smith's polemical approach has been praised by the Salafi Omar Bakri Muhammad[10] who states:

    I feel very comfortable with Jay (Smith, the apologist) – with him what you see is what you get. He is no hypocrite, and neither are Salafis. His words and actions match his heart. He does not pretend by saying soft words about Islam. The Qu’ran calls for debate… Most U.S. evangelicals refuse to debate Muslims, unlike the courage of Jay, who boldly cries "Jesus is Lord!"[12]


    well  Every Christian Evangelist who questions Islam and preaches Christianity to Muslims in so-called Muslim  nations could potentially  say/write  things that automatically appears as  a person with Islamophobia .. And  It goes to every faith  and preachers of those faiths

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6899 - June 07, 2019, 02:27 PM

    Shia Quran:

    Question is how much does it differ from the 1924 Cairo Quran.

    And follow up: does it differ in the same way as the pre 1924 Sunni Qurans..............

    well take this link   https://almizan.org/   and take this link  https://quran.com/

    and work on them to compare "Shia vs Sunni Quran"  dear mundi

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
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