Qur'anic studies today

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Reply #6840 - June 01, 2019, 12:59 PM

One cannot argue that the prophet used one variant one day and the other the next. Nor can one maintain that there is a firm oral tradition that guarantees the reading of the unambiguous words but breaks down when more than one reading is possible. It seems clear that the earliest readers got their readings from the written text of the Uthmanic recension, and since Arabic was their native language, they read the unambiguous parts correctly, and where the text was ambiguous, they exercised their knowledge of the langage and came up with what pleased each of them the most.
J. A. Bellamy, “Textual Criticism of the Koran”, Journal of the American Oriental Society, Vol. 121, No. 1 (Jan. – Mar., 2001), pp. 1-6, p.1-2.

(Haha, hahaha, hahahaha, ad infinitum...)
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Reply #6841 - June 01, 2019, 01:00 PM

Yes, Bellamy, like others, favors a written transmission.
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Reply #6842 - June 01, 2019, 01:08 PM

Bar the very earliest period, which was marked by oral transmission, the Quran was subsequently transmitted via written texts, as is evidenced by the majority of the eponymous readings.

To quote Nöldeke:

Quote
[a] number of facts suggest that the oral distribution of the Koran during the early period was followed by a period when the study of the written text prevailed … a vast number of variant readings developed that interpret identical consonantal forms in different ways…
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Reply #6843 - June 01, 2019, 02:39 PM

Quote from: Altara on May 31, 2019, 02:12 PM
I surely did.

You gave no explanation.

At the time(8 months ago), we had a discussion quite similar and I gave specific details about this coinage. Everyone is free to go and look for themselves and contradict whose who say that this coin say Abd Al Malik was a partisan of the Caliph Az-Zubayr at some stage. You didn't look into it. Why ? Because it doesn't fit your narrative.

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Contrary to you, I have no beliefs. I have facts. Grounded by sources.
And I do not use ambiguous ones to elaborate things which does not fit with other sources.

You do but you don't feel that way because you think your rationale is the right one while you don't understand that there will be some questions we will never be able to bring a final answer to and it will only be assumptions/conjectures. One example. You think the battle of Dhu Qar is the real event that the hijra is in fact refering to eventhough the dates don't match by 20 years, and eventhough there is another event whose dates match much better and offer an explanation to the fact the hijra is spread over 3 months in the islamic narrative.

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All my historical affirmations here are grounded by clear sources : Importance of Iraqi Arabs.
Nasara as Persian Christians and not Judaeo-Christian
Influence of Syriac on the Quranic script and motifs in the Quran
Iraqi monasteries
Inexact dates of the starting "conquest".
Etc.

There is nothing new here as those have been known since more than 10 years (Inarah/Pourshariati).

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You're naive. Nobody wants to get out out that maze. That's what I think more and more through time. Why? Because of the implications. The stakes are big. For everyone; people, institutions, academics, etc.

Even if you are a believer, you want to get out. Why ? because you know there are skeptics and you need to convince them but it cannot be done by using muslim sources so you will try and use (bend) non muslim sources to back up the muslim narrative.
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Reply #6844 - June 01, 2019, 02:42 PM

Quote from: Mahgraye on June 01, 2019, 01:08 PM
Bar the very earliest period, which was marked by oral transmission, the Quran was subsequently transmitted via written texts, as is evidenced by the majority of the eponymous readings.

To quote Nöldeke:
a] number of facts suggest that the oral distribution of the Koran during the early period was followed

What are the facts that he is refering to ?

Also, in order to validate this, you would also need to demonstrate that oral transmissions of religious texts among the Arabs was a known fact and tradition. Do we have references to this ?
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Reply #6845 - June 01, 2019, 04:13 PM

Quote from: Mahgraye on June 01, 2019, 01:08 PM
~~Bar the very earliest period, which was marked by oral transmission, the Quran was subsequently transmitted via written texts, as is evidenced by the majority of the eponymous readings.~~

To quote Nöldeke:
Quote
[a] number of facts suggest that the oral distribution of the Koran during the early period was followed by a period when the study of the written text prevailed … a vast number of variant readings developed that interpret identical consonantal forms in different ways…

That is a hand waving statement dear Mahgraye.. when you say this

Bar the very earliest period, which was marked by oral transmission

You must specify the time period and evidence for that ., and same thing goes to your

Quran was subsequently transmitted via written texts, as is evidenced by the majority of the eponymous readings.

Same thing goes to that statement also., What year do you think this oral statements became the book you see today??

without such facts you are just typing out the words by saying "this scholars said this and that scholar said that" and that is of no use except your are trying to defend your views on the origins of Quran.. Appeasing to authority is not the right way to explore the facts of history., for that matter that goes to every field and any field of investigation...

As for as Nöldeke is concerned .. critically Reading his work more useful than quoting few words from his book

Sketches from Eastern History by Nöldeke, Theodor Translator: Black, John Sutherland ....1892

The Qur'an: An Introductory Essay by Theodor Nöldeke

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Reply #6846 - June 01, 2019, 04:28 PM

Quote
Bar the very earliest period, which was marked by oral transmission,

I dont see any reason to assume this.
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Reply #6847 - June 01, 2019, 06:11 PM

yawn... (courtesy of Atara). What follows is a response to Mundi, Yeezevee, and Marc S. I presume that each and every one of the addressed can discern which response is to what concern and to whom.

1 - Though many variants are certainly a product written transmission, some do seem to have arisen orally as the rasm of the words in question run differently, e.g. sirāt v. ṣirāṭ ad Q 1:7. Devin J. Stewart, “Review of Karl-Heinz Ohlig (ed.), Early Islam: A Critical Reconstruction Based on Contemporary Sources,” Review of Middle East Studies 50 (2016), 116.

On the oral nature of the Quran, allow me to quote Devin Stewart:

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The importance of rhyme and repetition suggest that the Qurʾan originated in oral performance, which is not precluded by evidence of written transmission. Gross also denies the Qurʾan’s poetic qualities: Against the entire Arabic poetic tradition, he finds it “phonetically unthinkable” (416) that long -ū- could rhyme with long -ī-, and he finds poetic devices rare (425–7) even though roughly 86% of Qurʾanic verses exhibit end-rhyme and many others employ rhetorical figures or poetic license. While the Qurʾan does not have the same kind of meter as Arabic poetry, other forms of quantitative meter are found in the sections that resemble sajʿ (rhymed and rhythmical prose).

The Quran is a recited text. The earliest chapters are similar to that of a lectionary, recited.

Much more can be said. I am not the one to convey said information. Refer to the literature. This has been studied for decades.

2 - The issue is not an issue of dates but of reasonable assumptions. Want something more specific? Let quote Nöldeke, again:

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There is a whole group of variant readings in which the origin from the consonantal text is made still more likely… The half-century that separates Ḥasan al-Baṣrī’s (d. 110/728) prime of life from ʿUthmān’s recension (approximately 32/652) is likely to have been the period when the bulk of variant readings were created on the basis of the written text.

[this statement of Nöldeke is a follow up to his aforementioned one quoted above]
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Reply #6848 - June 01, 2019, 06:40 PM

Quote from: Mahgraye on June 01, 2019, 06:11 PM
yawn... (courtesy of Atara). What follows is a response to Mundi, Yeezevee, and Marc S. I presume that each and every one of the addressed can discern which response is to what concern and to whom...........

On the oral nature of the Quran, allow me to quote Devin Stewart:

The Quran is a recited text. The earliest chapters are similar to that of a lectionary, recited.

...................................

well nothing wrong in yawning dear Mahgraye ., I sleep and i put many people to sleep.,

Off course IT HAS TO BE ORAL TRANSMISSION BEFORE IT BECAME A BOOK .. and that goes to Quran and as well as to many of the so-called scriptures/religious literature ..

Some songs.. sonnets stories rhyming singing Arabic Quran from different surahs must have been transmitted orally by many many preachers before it became book.. BUT I WOULD NOT CALL THAT AS QURAN .. the book i see today.,

anyway I am reading the works of dr. Shawkat Toorawa .. bumped into his work and his life from his published paper "Hapless hapaxes and luckless rhymes: the Qurʼan as literature". Religion & Literature. 41 (2): 221–227.

that is a good little publication..

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He identifies himself as a multicultural Muslim having lived in England, France, Hong Kong, Singapore, Mauritius and the US. He is a faculty member in the Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations Department at Yale University ..Toorawa was born in London, England to Mauritian parents of Indian origin. Both parents were Muslim, one Shia and one Sunni, and were married in 1962. The family moved three years later, in 1965, to Paris, France where his father was transferred.

He first became aware of being Muslim in 1966 through his Senegalese tutor, Abdullah Diop, who came to their apartment daily to teach him the Arabic Script and stories about the prophets.

fascinating guy with a wonderful life..

read him .. he writes well and he will not put you to sleep.. lol..

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #6849 - June 01, 2019, 06:44 PM

Toorawa is the world expert on Quranic hapaxes.
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Reply #6850 - June 01, 2019, 06:47 PM

Quote from: Mahgraye on June 01, 2019, 06:44 PM
Toorawa is the world expert on Quranic hapaxes.

well may be is may be he is not., again Appeasing to authority is the last thing I fall for and that goes to everything I do in life.. but I do appreciate and acknowledge good work and thorough investigations

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #6851 - June 01, 2019, 06:48 PM

I do not see the problem. Everyone appeals to authorities. One must be critical, too, but this hostility towards authorities is toxic.
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Reply #6852 - June 01, 2019, 08:09 PM

There can't have been preaching for a few decades and then someone deciding to write it down in about the exact wording with peculiar rhyme. It is just not realistic.

The Quranic text would have bored the choir to sleep. It is not made to convert the non-converted.

Compare that to the emergence of NT. Jesus was preaching but no one was remembering his exacts words, just some stories with some slogans. Those were then written down "about right".

So this is the Magraye scenario:
For the Quran we maintain this preaching thing. Mohammed going around reciting eg Surah 2 (sorry for always using the same, there are a lot more boring ones), his disciples remembering it verbatim, repeating it verbatim, someone writing it down verbatim. Then memory is so good that these disciples remember a few wordings that the scribe missed and got wrong (this is the ultimate proof for this initial oral tradition). These disciples pass on this correct oral transmission despite the written text.

It does not make sense. it didnt happen that way.
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Reply #6853 - June 01, 2019, 08:29 PM

Quote from: Mahgraye on June 01, 2019, 01:08 PM
Bar the very earliest period, which was marked by oral transmission,

Nope. If there had had one, what Conrad remarks would have not existed : Nevertheless the Qurʾan displays a remarkable consistency, so if this accord did not come about as traditionally believed, then how did it in fact arise? Oral tradition cannot be the answer. A series of articles by James Bellamy published in the 1990s proves that Qurʾānic authority lay in a single written text that bore certain errors, as one might expect in any work preserved in handwritten copies. What is striking about Bellamy's results is the fact that faced with these textual anomalies, the earliest tradents, or at least the earliest ones of whom we have any knowledge, show no signs of recourse to an oral tradition, which would have immediately cleared up the difficulties. All they had before them was a script, or transmissions based on that script, and they were thus left to proceed only on the basis of guesswork and speculation. Even words that would have been of great and immediate importance in the days of Muḥammad himself are argued over and guessed at, sometimes at great length, and with no satisfactory result. We might expect that comparisons of the work that proceeded in different regions would show that the scholars of the Ḥijāz had a better record in arriving at likely or compelling solutions, since their own forefathers, the first Muslims, would have known the truth of the matter and passed it down through their descendants. But this is not the case. Confusion and uncertainty seems to be the rule, and at the centre of it all, is a written text in which textual anomalies could not be solved, and for which oral tradition offered no help, and for which clarifying context was unknown. 1

Unknown. Of course, these guys does not come from the peninsula, they never were from Mecca/Medina.
This is not the case. Of course, as all the story is inexact. No Kaba, Medina, Zem zem, no "Prophet".

Bellamy and Conrad have clearly understood. They did not draw the consequence of what they said, they would have been fired. I do not blame them, they say what they were able to say.

1+1=2. Not 3 like you say dear Maghraye.
You're totally hypnotized and circumvented by your text. I can understand very well the issue : if all is wrong where does come from this text?
I have (of course, if not, I would not be there...) a proposition.
Quote
the Quran was subsequently transmitted via written texts, as is evidenced by the majority of the eponymous readings.

Not subsequently; what demonstrates Conrad and Bellamy is perfectly clear : it was since the beginning a text. They show it just at reading the works of the people about the Quran and compare to what they claim to have as history. And it does not match. That is as simple as that. Conrad : "that faced with these textual anomalies, the earliest tradents, or at least the earliest ones of whom we have any knowledge, show no signs of recourse to an oral tradition, which would have immediately cleared up the difficulties. All they had before them was a script, or transmissions based on that script, and they were thus left to proceed only on the basis of guesswork and speculation. Even words (words !!!!)that would have been of great and immediate importance in the days of Muḥammad (Muḥammad!!!!) himself (himself!!!!) are argued over and guessed at, sometimes at great length, and with no satisfactory result."
They had no clues. Nothing. The void.
Bellamy : It seems clear that the earliest readers got their readings from the written text of the Uthmanic recension, and since Arabic was their native language, they read the unambiguous parts correctly, and where the text was ambiguous, they exercised their knowledge of the langage and came up with what pleased each of them the most.

I stop to torture you.
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Reply #6854 - June 01, 2019, 08:45 PM

Yes. Another piece of evidence is the word madhʾūman. This word came about due to the erasure of the letter mīm from the word madhmūman. Worthy of mention is that madhʾūman soon became part of the Quranic vocabulary too.

Donner analysis of the Quranic
Quote
furqān

yielded the same results. Same was shown by Luxenberg. I think we agree.

What is the source for Conrad, by the way?
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Reply #6855 - June 01, 2019, 08:47 PM

Quote
It seems clear that the earliest readers got their readings from the written text of the Uthmanic recension, and since Arabic was their native language, they read the unambiguous parts correctly, and where the text was ambiguous, they exercised their knowledge of the langage and came up with what pleased each of them the most.

By readers, he refers to the eponymous readers. Same with Nöldeke:

Quote
There is a whole group of variant readings in which the origin from the consonantal text is made still more likely… The half-century that separates Ḥasan al-Baṣrī’s (d. 110/728) prime of life from ʿUthmān’s recension (approximately 32/652) is likely to have been the period when the bulk of variant readings were created on the basis of the written text.

Time periods is importnat. People tend to conflate different stages of the process with one another.
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Reply #6856 - June 01, 2019, 09:52 PM

Quote from: Marc S on June 01, 2019, 02:39 PM
You gave no explanation.

Marc... yes I did. Unless I did not see your statement.

Quote
At the time(8 months ago), we had a discussion quite similar and I gave specific details about this coinage. Everyone is free to go and look for themselves and contradict whose who say that this coin say Abd Al Malik was a partisan of the Caliph Az-Zubayr at some stage. You didn't look into it. Why ? Because it doesn't fit your narrative.

Do you have any other sources which ground what you say apart this coin?
That is the question.
But... Ok. Malik supported Zubayr. Ok. After... he killed him, right?
(at least in my universe...) So what then?
What does that would change?
I think nothing.

Quote
You do but you don't feel that way because you think your rationale is the right one while you don't understand that there will be some questions we will never be able to bring a final answer to and it will only be assumptions/conjectures.

Thanks to not project you own situation on me It is not because you are unable to bring a final answer to some questions that it allows you to use that to qualify the feeling of others. Thanks.
I have (a) response to the major questions, contrary to you. That is our major difference. Not a theory, not an opinion, a response. Grounded with sources at your disposal.
Is the prophet of the Doctrina Jacobi, is Muhammad the prophet of Islam for you producer of the Quranic text?
For me, not.
Why: simply because never the Quran announces a Messiah nor presents a prophet with the keys of Paradise.

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One example. You think the battle of Dhu Qar is the real event that the hijra is in fact refering to

What? What what what? What?
Marc... Marc... Pitié Marc !!!!
Hijra? What's this? The 9th c.narrative. And I say it's inexact.
the battle of Dhu Qar is the real event : yes and that's all . Nothing to see with a hijra Marc... There's no hijra since there's no Mecca, etc.

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even though the dates don't match by 20 years,

What dates exactly?
What I say is very clear . I say that Dhu Qar was a strong event for the Arabs, that the narrative could not put aside it of the Sira. They decided to islamize it (in good faith) and to introduce it in the narrative. That's all I say.

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and even though there is another event whose dates match much better and offer an explanation to the fact the hijra is spread over 3 months in the Islamic narrative.

I'm sure you spoke of it 6 months ago Marc.
And nobody responded.
Without doubt a great event, which offer an explanation to the fact the hijra is spread over 3 months in the Islamic narrative.
Does that bring us closer to the author(s) of the Quran Marc?

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There is nothing new here as those have been known since more than 10 years (Inarah/Pourshariati).

And?

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Even if you are a believer, you want to get out. Why ? because you know there are skeptics and you need to convince them but it cannot be done by using muslim sources so you will try and use (bend) non muslim sources to back up the muslim narrative.

It is the Shaddel case.
Not the one of the "normal" Western scholars to whom it is much more complicated than that... Anyway, I say that the maze is very comfortable and get out of it is very dangerous. Furthermore, I think now that many scholars have been arrived not so far of my conclusions.
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Reply #6857 - June 01, 2019, 09:57 PM

Quote from: Mahgraye on June 01, 2019, 08:45 PM
What is the source for Conrad, by the way?

His brain. It is a general introduction : L. Conrad, “Qur’anic studies : A historian’s perspective”, in M. Kropp (ed.), Results of Contemporary Research on the Qur’ān, Beirut : Ergon, 2007, p.12-13.
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Reply #6858 - June 01, 2019, 10:07 PM

I meant the reference, haha. Thanks.
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Reply #6859 - June 01, 2019, 10:45 PM

Luxenberg:

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If such a tradition [oral transmission] existed at all, it must be assumed that it was interrupted fairly early on.

al-Sijistānī writes:

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ʿAbdullāh and ʿĪsā b. ʿUthmān b. ʿĪsā said, my uncle Yaḥyā b. ʿĪsā, from al-Aʿmash, from Thābit b. ʿUbayd, from Zayd b. Thābit. He said, the Prophet (peace be upon him) said, I receive books that I do not want every one to read. Can you learn Hebrew script? Or he said: Syriac. I said: Yes. So I learned it in seventeen days

Commenting on the aforementioned passage by al-Sijistānī, Munther Younes writes:

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If we consider the fact that ʿUthmān put Zayd b. Thābit in charge of producing the authoritative copy of the Qurʾān by ʿUthmān, it follows that some parts of the Qurʾān were read before they were recited.
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Reply #6860 - June 01, 2019, 11:42 PM

Here are the names of a few scholars who believe the Quran was, at least in part, transmitted via a written transmission: Günter Lüling, James A. Bellamy, Alphonse Mingana, Christoph Luxenberg, Fred M. Donner, Munther A. Younes, and Markus Gross.
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Reply #6861 - June 02, 2019, 12:19 AM

Quote from: Altara on June 01, 2019, 09:52 PM

Do you have any other sources which ground what you say apart this coin?
That is the question.

Of course I do.

Quote
But... Ok. Malik supported Zubayr. Ok. After... he killed him, right?
(at least in my universe...) So what then?
What does that would change?
I think nothing.

It does change the events part of the true story of Islam. As you are writing a book about it, that should be of importance to you.

Quote
What? What what what? What?
Marc... Marc... Pitié Marc !!!!
Hijra? What's this? The 9th c.narrative. And I say it's inexact.
the battle of Dhu Qar is the real event :
What dates exactly?
What I say is very clear . I say that Dhu Qar was a strong event for the Arabs, that the narrative could not put aside it of the Sira. They decided to islamize it (in good faith) and to introduce it in the narrative. That's all I say.

You specifically said the battle of Dhi Qar is the event stating the beginning of the muslim calendar and not an hijra from Mecca to Medina. Have you since then changed your mind on this ? You seem more cautious today then 10 months ago. However dates of this event do contradict your previous assumption but it didn't stop you to raise it.
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Reply #6862 - June 02, 2019, 12:21 AM

Quote from: Mahgraye on June 01, 2019, 11:42 PM
Here are the names of a few scholars who believe the Quran was, at least in part, transmitted via a written transmission: Günter Lüling, James A. Bellamy, Alphonse Mingana, Christoph Luxenberg, Fred M. Donner, Munther A. Younes, and Markus Gross.

Unless you provide evidence of a tradition among arabs of transmitting religious texts orally, then you cannot state that the Quran was transmitted orally at the beginning, especially because today the methodology to record it in muslim believer brain is done through a book.
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Reply #6863 - June 02, 2019, 12:27 AM

Quote
Unless you provide evidence of a tradition among arabs of transmitting religious texts orally, then you cannot state that the Quran was transmitted orally at the beginning, especially because today the methodology to record it in muslim believer brain is done through a book.

How is this relevant to my comment? If anything, my comment is in line with your position.
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Reply #6864 - June 02, 2019, 01:39 AM

Quote from: Marc S on June 02, 2019, 12:19 AM
Of course I do.

I've read many things . Explain to me why "Marc" would have sources that none scholars talk about?
Especially sources that you ask to search 6 month ago in a forum because you do not want to re give them. Why? Because one have to search for the Graal.
The sources you have can be explained otherwise, they are not specific to what you think which is a construction backed up by Volker Popp and Raymond Dequin. Scholars who inspire you.
I read Popp and (thanks to you... ) Dequin They interpret the sources in (for me...) a non scholarly way and elaborate with their imagination. Like Gallez with his Messianists Judeo Nazoreans supposedly being the Ebionites.

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You specifically said the battle of Dhi Qar is the event stating the beginning of the muslim calendar and not an hijra from Mecca to Medina. Have you since then changed your mind on this ? You seem more cautious today then 10 months ago.

I without doubt said that it could be this event that start the calendar. Could. I also said that the war has started before 622 (and it is an important point...) and that a big event (like Dhu qar) could have been the start of the calendar.
But for me this stuff (calendar) are details. It is granted (for me) that the all history presented by the narrative is inexact, driven by the interpretation made by them from the Quran (Mecca/Prophet/Kaba, etc)
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However dates of this event do contradict your previous assumption but it didn't stop you to raise it.

As you do not want to say what you're talking about... I'm sure that it can contradict all what you want. Am I right?
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Reply #6865 - June 02, 2019, 06:38 AM

Quote from: Mahgraye on June 01, 2019, 06:48 PM
I do not see the problem. Everyone ~~appeals~~ to authorities. One must be critical, too, but this hostility towards authorities is toxic.

well you read the word improperly dear Mahgraye...let us read that again..
Quote from: yeezevee on June 01, 2019, 06:47 PM
well may be he is or may be he is not., again Appeasing to authority is the last thing I fall for and that goes to everything I do in life.. but I do appreciate and acknowledge good work and thorough investigations

Appeasing to authorities....... is entirely different from appealing to authorities... or do you want me to read that statement of yours as ...

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"I do not see the problem. Everyone ~~appease~~ to authorities. One must be critical, too, but this hostility towards authorities is toxic. "

anyways let me read Quran here from ecommons.cornell.edu... please read the link., that Quran from Surah 93 to Surah114 are from dr. Shawkat Toorawa, ........... The Inimitable Rose", being Qur'anic saj‘ from Surat al-Duhâ to Surat al-Nâs (Q. 93–114) in English rhyming prose. Journal of Qur'anic Studies 8.2 (2006), 143–153

So i wonder whether dr. Shawkat did that to all 114 chapters of Quran??

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I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
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Reply #6866 - June 02, 2019, 06:49 AM

Quote from: Mahgraye on June 01, 2019, 11:42 PM
Here are the names of a few scholars who believe the Quran was, at least in part, transmitted via a written transmission: Günter Lüling, James A. Bellamy, Alphonse Mingana, Christoph Luxenberg, Fred M. Donner, Munther A. Younes, and Markus Gross.

you got to get rid of that word "believe" and replace it with ""PROOF" .,

you are making those guys ((Günter Lüling, James A. Bellamy, Alphonse Mingana, Christoph Luxenberg, Fred M. Donner, Munther A. Younes, and Markus Gross)) ......"believers".... not EXPLORERS OF HISTORY...

and big question on .............. the Quran was, at least in part, transmitted via a written transmission:................. is

which part/which chapters of Quran was transmitted via a written transmission? and which chapters of Quran was transmitted via oral transmission?

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
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the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #6867 - June 02, 2019, 08:52 AM

Quote
which part/which chapters of Quran was transmitted via a written transmission? and which chapters of Quran was transmitted via oral transmission?

This question is interesting because when one reads the narrative it is exactly what it is stated : texts written on bones of camels, etc., and in the same time people who knew it by heart (inducing oral transmission which will serves to say that there is just some reading to the illiterate people) who dies (conveniently ...) and that necessitated that the text have to be written. It reflects I think the issue faced by them:
1/ The Quran says that it is an oral proclamation.
2/ However 8, and 9 th c. polygraphs have texts.

1/The Quran necessarily says the truth about itself (hahaha!)
2/Therefore it was necessary to put together in the narrative what the Quran says about itself and what was the reality they constate, namely, texts.
- Marc S
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Qur'anic studies today
Reply #6868 - June 02, 2019, 10:22 AM

Quote from: Mahgraye on June 02, 2019, 12:27 AM
How is this relevant to my comment? If anything, my comment is in line with your position.

I know but I was referring to what you think (an oral transmission at some stage) and therefore I was wondering if you had what I was referring to to back it up.
- mundi
- Pub Regular
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Qur'anic studies today
Reply #6869 - June 02, 2019, 01:15 PM

Quote
oral tradition

Tradition means an established practice over a relatively long time.

How can there have been an oral tradition knowing that the oldest manuscripts are pre 650???

Maybe here or there there were fragments that were recited as poems but we cannot call that an oral TRADITION for Quran transmission.

Just think of the practical side. Like Marc says, all muslims today use the book to memorize the Quran. Just as they did in the beginning.
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