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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6810 - May 31, 2019, 10:59 AM

    Marc,

    Can you expand on the numismatics please. I read Popp and got an idea about the controversy but I need help understanding!



    To summarize :

    - coinage is not included in most scholars studies of Islam,
    - when it is, they only scratch the surface of the data in front of them or try and fit it into the muslim narrative
    - this is not to say that numismatics alone is the key to understand it all ; it isn't and cannot be
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6811 - May 31, 2019, 11:08 AM

    hmm   that is a good one..

    Michael Lecker  wrote wonderful stories on early Islam...  in fact  some of them could be made in to movies  for children on "the beginning of Islam.. "
     


    A funny thing about Ibn Ishaq's Maghazi is that the author left clues as to highlight the fact that Muhammad was a false prophet  Cheesy
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6812 - May 31, 2019, 11:26 AM

    Marc,

    Can you expand on the numismatics please. I read Popp and got an idea about the controversy but I need help understanding!

    Altara,

    The Qastal Qibla (190 dg) is built about the same time of dome of Rock/ Chain. Do you remember our discussion of orientation of 170 dg?


    Yes. And?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6813 - May 31, 2019, 11:28 AM

    This is just one example to show that there is a large pool of data untapped by scholars from different fields. It is interesting to see that your friend Medhi Shaddel partnered with Michael Bates and, though he is what you would call a believer, I am interested to see some of his future works not so much fpr what he has to say but for the data they will be reviewing.


     Malik was a supporter of Zubayr according to Shaddel and Bates? Is that what you say, or I missed something?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6814 - May 31, 2019, 11:31 AM

    To summarize :

    - coinage is not included in most scholars studies of Islam,
    - when it is, they only scratch the surface of the data in front of them or try and fit it into the muslim narrative.


    Of course. It embarrassed them since it does not corresponds (at all) to the narrative.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6815 - May 31, 2019, 11:58 AM

    Quote
    Coinage



    Can someone explain what exactly doesnt match the narrative?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6816 - May 31, 2019, 12:13 PM

    Malik was a supporter of Zubayr according to Shaddel and Bates?


    No I never said that. I spoke about this specific coinage with the relevant sources on this thread already.

    Quote
    Is that what you say, or I missed something?


    Yes you did miss something. I was just highlighting here that a guy you criticize a lot for being only a translator from arabic did see the point of teaming up with a scholar whose field of expertise is numismatics. I see it as an indication that some people feel that if they don't do things differently, they would be always caught in the same maze regarding early islam. I don't know the exact nature of the coinage they are reviewing in their future work yet to be published (See Mehdi Shadel Academia page for this) but I hope it will be something new though those 2 scholars are not known to be skeptics.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6817 - May 31, 2019, 12:26 PM

    Quote
    Malik was a supporter of Zubayr according to Shaddel and Bates?

     
    Quote
    No I never said that.


    According to whom then?

    Quote
    I spoke about this specific coinage with the relevant sources on this thread already.


    I surely explained that what you have presented can be explained otherwise. For me it is then conjecture and nothing else.
    If you have new elements give them...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6818 - May 31, 2019, 12:37 PM

    No I never said that. I spoke about this specific coinage with the relevant sources on this thread already.

    Yes you did miss something. I was just highlighting here that a guy you criticize a lot for being only a translator from arabic did see the point of teaming up with a scholar whose field of expertise is numismatics.


    Haha! And it is a good news for you? Why not ...
    I'm rather sceptic...
    Quote
    I see it as an indication that some people feel that if they don't do things differently, they would be always caught in the same maze regarding early islam.

     

    I like when people states why people do this or that whereas they have no clues (at all)...
    Did you speak with Bates or Shaddel to state this? That they want go out of the maze?
    Marc...

    Quote
    I don't know the exact nature of the coinage they are reviewing in their future work yet to be published (See Mehdi Shadel Academia page for this) but I hope it will be something new though those 2 scholars are not known to be skeptics.


    Therefore Shaddel won't go against the narrative he is a great believer, as Muslim, and a translator (it was his presentation in academia). Now he's a student at Leiden. I'm sure it will get a position somewhere (Bates will support him that is why he moved towards him as he did with IQSA), he is a charming and good looking guy.
    And an arrogant c*.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6819 - May 31, 2019, 01:03 PM


    Can someone explain what exactly doesnt match the narrative?


    Re-read Popp.

    But try and ask yourself the following on sassanian-arabic coins :

    - why portraying Khosroes II or Yazdegerd III on those coins ?
    - why switching between their dating system and the islamic one (if one believe the intepretation of mainstream scholars) ?
    - why do some coins show up in some locations and not others at certain dates ?
    - why do some coins seem to indicate arab governors with dates not matching the muslim narrative?
    - etc,etc,etc,etc
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6820 - May 31, 2019, 01:23 PM


    According to whom then?


    I specifically gave :

    - the book name and its writer's name,
    - the sources specific details that he quotes and the coinage material reviewed,

    Quote
    I surely explained that what you have presented can be explained otherwise. For me it is then conjecture and nothing else.
    If you have new elements give them...


    No you didn't give no alternative explanation. You had a reaction that, coupled with the one you have now, makes me think you seem to be stuck within your own belief. Everything is a conjecture when it doesn't fit your own narrative.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6821 - May 31, 2019, 01:28 PM

    Haha! And it is a good news for you? Why not ...
    I'm rather sceptic...


    It is a good thing for early islamic studies but not the fact that Shaddel and Bates team up together but the fact that people look at all the different fields in order to explain the islamic beginnings.

    Quote
    I like when people states why people do this or that whereas they have no clues (at all)...
    Did you speak with Bates or Shaddel to state this? That they want go out of the maze?
    Marc...

    You miss the point. Everyone wants to get out out that maze, whether you are a believer or not, the goal being to back up your own narrative ; therefore, I don't need to speak with them.

    Quote
    Therefore Shaddel won't go against the narrative he is a great believer, as Muslim, and a translator (it was his presentation in academia).


    You again miss the point. It doesn't matter what they think  but I stated it and you missed it that I was interested to see if they bring new material to be reviewed ; from there, everyone is free to review it too and makes his own opinion.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6822 - May 31, 2019, 02:12 PM


    No you didn't give no alternative explanation.

    I surely did. And from the moment where there is another explication, the explication proposed is conjecture. Nothing else. An explication must be specific. Yours ( that I do not remember... and as you do not want to tell it again...) was not. Many objections could be opposed to it. From the moment where there is many objections non explainable... yes, it is conjecture.

    Quote
    You had a reaction that, coupled with the one you have now, makes me think you seem to be stuck within your own belief.

     

    Contrary to you, I have no beliefs. I have facts. Grounded by sources.
    And I do not use ambiguous ones to elaborate things which does not fit with other sources.
     
    Quote
    Everything is a conjecture when it doesn't fit your own narrative.

    Especially when it is grounded by ambiguous sources not grounded by clear other ones.
    What you call my "narrative" has changed many times in the 5 last years.So much that I consider having pretty none, except that the 9th c. one is historically false, and that the Quran is not the production of it.
    All my historical affirmations here are grounded by clear sources : Importance of Iraqi Arabs.
    Nasara as Persian Christians and not Judaeo-Christian
    Influence of Syriac on the Quranic script and motifs in the Quran
    Iraqi monasteries
    Inexact dates of the starting "conquest".
    Etc.



  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6823 - May 31, 2019, 02:30 PM

    It is a good thing for early islamic studies but not the fact that Shaddel and Bates team up together but the fact that people look at all the different fields in order to explain the islamic beginnings.


    Shaddel does not need to explain the islamic beginnings, he have it. It is the 9th narrative. His move towards Bates is for his future for a position. Like he did with IQSA. He surely be interested in coins, why not... What does that change? Nothing. He will try to fit the coins with the narrative that's all, whereas it is very very difficult to do it.

    Quote
    You miss the point. Everyone wants to get out out that maze, whether you are a believer or not, the goal being to back up your own narrative ;


    You're naive. Nobody wants to get out out that maze. That's what I think more and more through time. Why? Because of the implications. The stakes are big. For everyone; people, institutions, academics, etc.

    Quote
    I was interested to see if they bring new material to be reviewed ; from there, everyone is free to review it too and makes his own opinion.

     

    Numismatics as such is a mess in the field.I'm not comfortable that it's Shaddel that's in charge.


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6824 - May 31, 2019, 02:32 PM

    Marc,

    Quote
    why switching between their dating system and the islamic one (if one believe the intepretation of mainstream scholars) ?


    We see of other examples (papyri) how exact these Islamic era dates seem to be. So I follow Popp when he consequently uses the dates as H.E.

    Is Popp the last work on muminastics? Or do you have something more recent. I will follow your advice and re-read.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6825 - May 31, 2019, 03:11 PM

    https://www.academia.edu/39325644/Early_Islamic_Studies_Seminar_11_th_Nangeroni_Meeting._New_Perspectives_and_Contexts_in_the_Studies_of_Islamic_Origins_2_Gazzada_16-20_June_2019_
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6826 - May 31, 2019, 03:49 PM

    Yes, dear Maghraye.
    I highlight some lectures :

    Mohammad Ali Amir-Moezzi (École Pratique des Hautes Études, Paris), “Muḥammad and ‘Alī Between Apocalypse and Empire. Some Remarks on the Origins of Islam”

    Interesting paper: Mohammad Ali Amir-Moezzi is a great believer.

    Peter von Sivers (University of Utah), “Apocalypse Fulfilled? The Qur’an between the Sasanians and the Romans”

    We'll see that.

    Daniel Beck, “The Twinning of Quranic Geography: Ḥiğāzī Babylon, Ḥiğāzī Jerusalem”

    Daniel Beck is a lawyer...

    Jan Retsö (University of Gothenburg), “The people that disappeared: the legend of ‘Ād and its background”

    We'll see that.

    Gilles Courtieu (Université Jean Moulin Lyon 3) & Carlos A. Segovia (Saint-Louis University, Madrid Campus): “Q 2:102, 43:31, and Ctesiphon-Seleucia: New Insights into the Mesopotamian Setting of the Earliest Quranic Milieu”

    Idem.
    Dye is responding, that does not surprise me, he will bring his Palestinian stuff.

    Julien Decharneux (Université libre de Bruxelles), “God’s Wisdom and some other key notions of the Qur’ān through the lens of late antique rabbinic literature”

    Idem.

    Éléonore Cellard (Collège de France, Paris), “The Ṣan‘ā’ palimpsest: a multigathering co-dex/muṣḥaf”

    Idem.

    Guillaume Dye (Université libre de Bruxelles), “Concepts and Methods in the Study of the Qur’ān”

    Idem.

    According to the abstract of the Inarah pdf (academia is your friend) posted by Kerr, Dye detailed interpolations in
    Concepts and Methods in the Study of the Qur’ān
    Guillaume Dye

    Remarkably, though in hindsight perhaps unsurprisingly, methods commonly employed in Old and Nev; Testament studies, such as fonn criticism and above all its offshoot redaction criticism, have only occasionally been applied to Quranic studies as yet. This paper has three goals:
    1. to describe briefly, through historiographical analysis, why this is so;
    2. to vindicate the application of such methodology to the text of the
    Quran;
    3. to exemplify redaction criticism by means of Sura 55, where I  will show two verses must be a secondary addition;
    b) that the interpolator ,was a disparate redactor in relation to the  original  author of the Sura;
    c) and that the later interpolation ,was triggered by a congenital misunderstanding, on the part of the interpolator, of the original text.
    It is our aim to demonstrate how, through a systematic and comprehensive application of such methods, unexpected light might be cast on the processes of textual genesis and transmission of the Quran.

    I personally do not understand the c and b point.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6827 - May 31, 2019, 03:51 PM

    B: My understanding is that the interpolator was not connected to the context of the surah.

    C: B wrote an interpolation because he did not understand what A wrote.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6828 - May 31, 2019, 03:55 PM

    Seems cryptic. Awful abstract.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6829 - May 31, 2019, 03:56 PM

    Pretty clear to me. But I see your point.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6830 - May 31, 2019, 04:07 PM

    Awful.
    B: My understanding is that the interpolator was not connected to the context of the surah.


    I see the contrary : the first interpolator is in relation with the original author.
    Quote
    C: B wrote an interpolation because he did not understand what A wrote.

    Another interpolator (the latter one) did not understand what did the first one and add things that does not fit.

    If I'm right he could have done it clearly...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6831 - May 31, 2019, 04:16 PM

    Gilles Courtieu (Université Jean Moulin Lyon 3) & Carlos A. Segovia (Saint-Louis University, Madrid Campus): “Q 2:102, 43:31, and Ctesiphon-Seleucia: New Insights into the Mesopotamian Setting of the Earliest Quranic Milieu”


    Dye is responding, that does not surprise me, he will bring his Palestinian stuff to which he is very committed.
    He has such invested in it that he will never move.
    On the other hand, he still did not understand that the Quran is nor Plato nor Sextus Empiricus who necessitate, to be studied, none historical context.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6832 - May 31, 2019, 04:18 PM

    Wjy should he move? You make it out as if he is comitted to it because convenience.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6833 - May 31, 2019, 04:23 PM

    He has working on it (Palestinian stuff, Kathisma, Palestinian monks writing part of Q 19, etc) very much. He won't abandoning it precisely because of this long working.

    When something does not fit, one moves. Where the other parts of the text were written?
    At best his Palestinian stuff is not sufficient...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6834 - May 31, 2019, 04:24 PM

    Does this apply to your theories too?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6835 - May 31, 2019, 04:35 PM

    Of course.
    At this moment, all fit, because I have no theory. Just sources and facts. For example , the prophet described in the Doctrina Jacobi has nothing to see with the Prophet described by the 9th narrative.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6836 - May 31, 2019, 04:44 PM

    My first move is to have understand that "Muhammad" has, in fact, never existed. One week earlier I would have laughing if someone had announcing me that one week later I will think that.
    A big move.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6837 - May 31, 2019, 04:44 PM

    Mesopotamian setting:

    Just bc in 2:102 Babylon is mentioned we have to place the action to Mesopotamia?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6838 - May 31, 2019, 05:02 PM

    It is not so simple.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6839 - May 31, 2019, 08:13 PM

    And much of what is written here can be turned into science fiction stories for children.

    Mahgraye  says that to this response

    Quote

    hmm   that is a good one..


    Michael Lecker  wrote wonderful stories on early Islam...  in fact  some of them could be made in to movies  for children on "the beginning of Islam.. "


    well dear Mahgraye  i prefer science fiction stories anytime over that flimsy stories of  faiths written some centuries ago by some cave dwellers and and unfortunately  my problem is  indeed Academics who are inquiring these faith books/stories  and presenting them  as facts of medieval human history..  At least  no one here are trying to cheat folks like the fake faith story tellers

    And so questions and heckling will continue from me on their publications  dear  Mahgraye .. Cheesy

    but here please read  all Michael Lecker's work by clicking his picture...  then we will discuss 

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
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