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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6570 - May 04, 2019, 06:01 PM

    What did Hagarism say about Muḥammad? If I remember correctly, not much, apart from the following:

    -   He existed.
    -   He was an Arab.
    -   He allied with Jews.
    -   He preached the return of the Messiah
    -   He initiated the Near Eastern conquests.
    -   He sought the Holy Land.


    It is totally in line with the narrative. Apart :
    -He preached the return of the Messiah
    -He allied with Jews.
    -He sought the Holy Land.
    Those (above) are details.
    The core narrative is accepted as such (Mecca/Medina/Kaba) and Prophet Muhammad producing the Quran there or further north (it has no importance).
    To be sceptic would have been to put aside this core narrative. That she has not done. That is why she used it in her studies of the Quranic text.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6571 - May 04, 2019, 06:09 PM

    well  you got to read that first 140 pages book again dear Altara .


    When a scholar in a scholarly work say that someone has existed and that this someone is known to have produced something famous and that she did not say that he had not produced this famous thing, it means that  the someone she write about is the same as the someone recounted by the narrative that all the planet knows.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6572 - May 04, 2019, 06:15 PM

    Quote
    It is totally in line with the narrative. Apart :
    -He preached the return of the Messiah
    -He allied with Jews.
    -He sought the Holy Land.
    Those (above) are details.
    The core narrative is accepted as such (Mecca/Medina/Kaba) and Prophet Muhammad producing the Quran there or further north (it has no importance).
    To be sceptic would have been to put aside this core narrative. That she has not done. That is why she used it in her studies of the Quranic text.


    When a scholar in a scholarly work say that someone has existed and that this someone is known to have produced something famous and that she did not say that he had not produced this famous thing, it means that  the someone she write about is the same as the someone recounted by the narrative that all the planet knows.


    Oh my goodness gracious...  Altara dear Altara .. you got to change...

    otherwise YOU WILL NOT PUBLISH ANYTHING... You appears to be extreme critic... you will not able to referee any publication   without rejecting it.,   how and why would you expect one publication one book to tell everything about Islam in 1977?

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6573 - May 04, 2019, 06:42 PM

    Quote
    how and why would you expect one publication one book to tell everything about Islam in 1977?


    She got enough time after to say it. She never did, because she did not think it. She was a great believer.
    The interesting thing is that guys like Pregill continue to spread the legend of the 'sceptic' Crone.
    Legend.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6574 - May 04, 2019, 06:53 PM

    On Crone:

    Agree that she was a believer.

    Quote
    Most importantly, we can be reasonably sure that the Qur'an is a collection of utterances that he made in the belief that they had been revealed to him by God.

     ( https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/mohammed_3866jsp/)

    There is a lot of faith needed to be reasonably sure about this...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6575 - May 04, 2019, 07:33 PM

    Quote
    She got enough time after to say it. She never did, because she did not think it. She was a great believer.

    The interesting thing is that guys like Pregill continue to spread the legend of the 'sceptic' Crone.
    Legend.

     
    On Crone:

    Agree that she was a believer.
     ( https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/mohammed_3866jsp/)

    There is a lot of faith needed to be reasonably sure about this...



    well I completely disagree with you two guys on that... and I will explain why?.. at later times   and forget guys like Pregill   as you already said...  they are there  to collect pay checks...dear Altara

    You guys are really harsh on dr. Patricia crone ., what actually you mean by believer or great believer ?  believer of  what ?  She was faith head?  she believed in faiths and all faiths are from allah/god??

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6576 - May 04, 2019, 07:38 PM

    On Crone:

    Agree that she was a believer.
     ( https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/mohammed_3866jsp/)

    There is a lot of faith needed to be reasonably sure about this...


    Thanks Mundi.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6577 - May 04, 2019, 07:42 PM

    On Crone:

    I am not harsh on her. She really did good work. But that doesn't take away she was a believer.

    Why did she believe?

    Out of conviction? Was she a secret muslim?  dance She didnt want to ruin her career? I really dont know.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6578 - May 04, 2019, 07:45 PM

    You guys are really harsh on dr. Patricia crone ., what actually you mean by believer or great believer ?  believer of  what ?  She was faith head?  she believed in faiths and all faiths are from allah/god??


    Just that she was not the 'sceptic'  that Pregill et al. said/ still say. That is all Yeez.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6579 - May 04, 2019, 07:45 PM

    On Crone:

    I am not harsh on her. She really did good work. But that doesn't take away she was a believer.

    Why did she believe?

    Out of conviction? Was she a secret muslim?  dance She didnt want to ruin her career? I really dont know.


      YOU ARE . and Alatara is..

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cd5K6rjwtnY

    you are not even understanding her life and her problems with Islam and Muslims apart from problem with  her career starting in England.. You guys know NOTHING abut her life and how closely she was followed by ROGUES OF ISLAM..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6580 - May 04, 2019, 08:38 PM

    One knows all of this Yeez.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6581 - May 04, 2019, 10:35 PM

    this is beyond me. tired of this. skeptic this, believer that. all speculation and factually wrong. sectarianism and sophistry and hair-splitting. I'm done.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6582 - May 05, 2019, 07:50 AM

    Why do we need to put some scholars on a pedestal?

    Crone was a wonderful scholar and a beautiful person. Doesnt mean we can't comment on her work...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6583 - May 05, 2019, 08:44 AM

    Why do we need to put some scholars on a pedestal?

    Crone was a wonderful scholar and a beautiful person. Doesnt mean we can't comment on her work...

    no one is putting any scholar on a pedestal dear mundi... no one is saying her work should not be criticized dear mundi...  I was objecting to the word "believer"  "great believer"
    you  guys were picking on her work  of that little booklet "Hagarism" and calling her "believer" ......  where as in fact she was the first who questioned existence of connection  of these towns...  Mecca, Madina.. Zam..zam with origins of Islam in 1977  in that booklet".

    and i do not think you guys are reading that one page news clip from her carefully

    please read that 10 year old  2008  oped article What do we actually know about Mohammed?  again..  we will  discuss....

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6584 - May 05, 2019, 11:05 AM

    Both of you guys (Yeez and Mahgraye...) take seriously and personally something that they should not. It is normal, as the general topic is very near them (Islam, Allah, whatever...)
    Nobody here engage personally  Crone.  I engage her in her scholarly position, nothing else. Accessory also about what is said/thought about her by almost all scholarship and regularly stated by guys like Pregill. Crone has become the pope of scepticism whereas she was not or on accessory details which do not question anything :
    -He preached the return of the Messiah :detail : Doctrina Jacobi
    -He allied with Jews :detail : Sebeos
    -He sought the Holy Land:detail : Doctrina Jacobi

    Those are details and do not question the master narrative.

    I do not call this "scepticism" "revisionism" or whatever.
    Wansbrough is the only one in the field but as his access is difficult... it is far more easy to attack Crone.  Issue is that she was not what they say. I consider this awful, unjust, wrong and scholarly inexact as the list above evidences it.



  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6585 - May 05, 2019, 12:01 PM

    Mohammad Ali Amir-Moezzi March 2019
    Translatable with YT.
    He clings (like all...) to the (Gallez/Shoemaker) wagon .
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtyMquuYtv4&t=2512s
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6586 - May 05, 2019, 02:16 PM

    And why is this a wagon, if I may ask?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6587 - May 05, 2019, 02:25 PM

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphor
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6588 - May 05, 2019, 02:30 PM

    I understand that it is a figure of speech. My question, however, was why you described it as a wagon. Is not a respectable, scholarly position to adhere to based on ones interpretation o the evidence? Meaning, it is not like Moezzi just out of a whim jumped on a hot trend without research.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6589 - May 05, 2019, 02:39 PM

    Did you listen to the lecture?

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6590 - May 05, 2019, 02:40 PM

    skipped through bits regarding Shiism and listened to parts regarding the Quran instead. 
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6591 - May 05, 2019, 02:44 PM

    You should have not. Because all is holding in his discourse. Re do it.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6592 - May 05, 2019, 02:44 PM

    Okay. Will re-listen. although this talk seems to be based on his article regardng ali and the messiah.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6593 - May 05, 2019, 03:29 PM

    Quote
    Okay.


    Good. It is not someone who think like you from whom you can learn.

    Quote
    this talk seems to be based on his article regarding Ali and the messiah.


    More or less yes. But he says more (absent of it); notably what says Gallez about some things.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6594 - May 05, 2019, 06:58 PM

    What.................? let me strip Altara   post.. He is mixing apples and oranges ..   No..no.. FRUITS AND MEAT

    Both of you guys (Yeez and Mahgraye...) take seriously and personally something that they should not. It is normal, as the general topic is very near them (Islam, Allah, whatever...)


    dear Altara.,  WHAT YOU  SAID ABOVE  IS ABSOLUTE RUBBISH w.r.t  yeezevee., don't mix my views on Islam for that matter any views of me on any faith faith  with the views of Mahgraye..,    I AM NOT A FAITH HEAD

    Some one used to call me mullah yeezevee on these  forums., now you are saying I am believer of Islam, Allah, whatever.,  anyway what you said  below with reference to Crone is different. so I address it separately
    Quote
    Nobody here engage personally  Crone.  I engage her in her scholarly position, nothing else. Accessory also about what is said/thought about her by almost all scholarship and regularly stated by guys like Pregill. Crone has become the pope of scepticism whereas she was not or on accessory details which do not question anything :
    -He preached the return of the Messiah :detail : Doctrina Jacobi
    -He allied with Jews :detail : Sebeos
    -He sought the Holy Land:detail : Doctrina Jacobi

    Those are details and do not question the master narrative.

    I do not call this "scepticism" "revisionism" or whatever.
    Wansbrough is the only one in the field but as his access is difficult... it is far more easy to attack Crone.  Issue is that she was not what they say. I consider this awful, unjust, wrong and scholarly inexact as the list above evidences it.


      Those words needs detailed  rebuttal.  so i will postpone  and  respond at later times ., So I delete all of your post ..lol..   again  DONOT MIX WHAT OTHERS LIKE Pregill THINKS ABOUT WHAT SHE WAS....

    she never said  she was pope of Islam skepticism .,


    And why are    you so jealous of her work on ""Hagarism""?   ..LOL

    Is it because she was the first one to say that ORIGINS IF ISLAM IS NOTHING T DO WITH MECCA MADNA ZAM ZAM  .. YOUR MECCA MUHAMMAD ZAM ZAM SONG??.. Cheesy

    And why do you expect her to solve all problems of origins of Islam?   

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6595 - May 05, 2019, 07:51 PM

    Quote
    Good. It is not someone who thinks like you from whom you can learn.


    Thanks. Will listen to him. Hopefully, I will learn something (you did mean that I could learn from him, right?).

    Quote
    More or less yes. But he says more (absent of it); notably what says Gallez about some things.


    You mean he did not mention what Gallez says about some issues in the talk contra the article? Yeah, in the article he cites and agrees with Gallez more.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6596 - May 05, 2019, 11:09 PM

    Mohammad Ali Amir-Moezzi March 2019
    Translatable with YT.
    He clings (like all...) to the (Gallez/Shoemaker) wagon .
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtyMquuYtv4&t=2512s

    Altara  puts out a video of Mohammad Ali Amir-Moezzi  and Mahgraye says
    Quote
    skipped through bits regarding Shiism and listened to parts regarding the Quran instead. 

    Okay. Will re-listen. although this talk seems to be based on his article regardng ali and the messiah.

    I understand that it is a figure of speech. My question, however, was why you described it as a wagon. Is not a respectable, scholarly position to adhere to based on ones interpretation o the evidence? Meaning, it is not like Moezzi just out of a whim jumped on a hot trend without research.



    So dear Mahgraye   ..  what is your opinion on  Mohammad Ali Amir-Moezzi??

    Mohammad Ali Amir-Moezzi - Why is the Quranic Text Problematic? 
    A lecture by Mohammad Ali Amir-Moezzi (Sorbonne University) held in Central European University (September 21, 2017, Budapest) and organised by CEU Center for Religious Studies.

    CISS seminar with Prof Amir-Moezzi - 26 October 2011

    The Centre for Islamic Shi'a Studies (CISS) held the second lecture of its Shi'i Narratives of Formative Muslim History Seminar Series that took place on Wednesday 26 October 2011

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6597 - May 05, 2019, 11:43 PM

    Thanks. Will listen to him. Hopefully, I will learn something (you did mean that I could learn from him, right?).


    Yes you will learn how he build his thought state it with things inspired by Shoemaker and Gallez and articulate it in public, I think it is interesting .

    Quote
    You mean he did not mention what Gallez says about some issues in the talk contra the article?


    Yes.

    Quote
    Yeah, in the article he cites and agrees with Gallez more.


    Yes with some reserves (he is obliged  as Gallez is considered as Islamophobic, etc )


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6598 - May 05, 2019, 11:53 PM

    1/And why are   you so jealous of her work on ""Hagarism""?  ..LOL
    2/And why do you expect her to solve all problems of origins of Islam?    


    1/Patricia Crone told me (in protesting) that she never said  that Mecca have never existed. It was in 2003/4.
    2/ Read point 1.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6599 - May 06, 2019, 04:28 AM

    1/Patricia Crone told me (in protesting) that she never said  that Mecca have never existed. It was in 2003/4.
    2/ Read point 1.

    Altara  ...  dear Altara ., I am glad you did not say 
    Quote
    1/Read point 2  and reflect.
    2/ Read point 1.


    So  what,  she said to you (in protesting)in 2003/4 that"she never said  that Mecca  never existed"

    What does that mean?  It means "Mecca as a place existed before Islam,  during the beginning of Islam   and after death of Muhammad...."

    that is all what it means .. ..those words does not mean "Mecca is something to do with the origins of Islam"...

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
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