Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


Qur'anic studies today
Today at 01:48 PM

الحبيب من يشبه اكثر؟؟؟
by akay
Today at 06:07 AM

What music are you listen...
Yesterday at 08:35 PM

New PM incoming
by zeca
Yesterday at 06:37 PM

'Islamic State' a.k.a. IS...
Yesterday at 01:50 PM

Attack on Jewish store in...
December 12, 2019, 11:57 PM

Blasphemy Case of Junaid...
December 12, 2019, 11:50 PM

Random Islamic History Po...
by zeca
December 12, 2019, 10:52 PM

NayaPakistan...New Pakist...
December 12, 2019, 09:23 PM

Protests in Iraq
by zeca
December 11, 2019, 07:40 PM

Are Hijabs really a choic...
December 11, 2019, 02:35 PM

Kashmir endgame
December 11, 2019, 02:13 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

 (Read 413571 times)
  • Previous page 1 ... 217 218 219220 221 ... 285 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6540 - May 03, 2019, 09:07 PM

    ............... but why does Pregill talk about the "C&C Revisionism Factory"? It is not a respectful way of speaking about other colleagues.............................


    that is because Michael Pregill  is involved with  MIZAN  ...JOURNAL for the STUDY of  MUSLIM SOCIETIES and CIVILIZATIONS

    In west MIZAN.. is organized by folks like  dr. Kecia Ali ., it is interesting to note Mizan  east stated with a wonderful a guy ..... Javed Ahmad Ghamidi, a Pakistani Islamic scholar.... whose interpretation of Islam .,  specially Quran is completely  different from other sunni Islamic scholars..

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vm2isGGsCE

    Quote
    Exile from Pakistan..https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javed_Ahmad_Ghamidi

    Ghamidi left Pakistan in 2010[43] as a result of strong and violent actions against his work. In a 2015 interview with Voice of America, Ghamidi explained his reason for departure was to safeguard the lives of people near him[44] including his neighbours who had begun to fear for their safety.[45] Some of his close associates had already been killed like Dr. Muhammad Farooq Khan and Dr. Habib-ur-Rehman, the latter of whom was murdered in his clinic.[45] Another close associate who was related to the work of Ghamidi's Risala, Syed Manzoor-ul-Hasan, one day after leaving Ghamidi's office was shot through the mouth but survived although the bullet still remains in his body.[45] Ghamidi maintained that because of today's means of communication, his work of education does not get affected by his exile.[44] Ghamidi, also regularly appears on Ilm-o-Hikmat, a Pakistani Dunya News show.[46] He has also presented his desire to return in the future when circumstances change.[45]


    long time ago I had some internet chat with Ghamidi when he was living in Pakistan under the protection of General Musharraf.,  Off course  we politely agreed to disagree with each other on Origins of Islam..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6541 - May 03, 2019, 09:45 PM

    yezeevee, thanks for information!!!
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6542 - May 03, 2019, 10:35 PM

    Pregill is less than nothing in the field.
    "C&C Revisionism Factory" is a fake news. Suffice to read Crone ; she believed in the existence of "Muhammad", she does not used her "conjectures" built in Hagarism and Meccan trade in all of her articles related to the Quran. None.
    It could be interesting for some scholars to continue to make believe in this legend. Thus, they have
    "enemies" they can deal with as they are incapable to produce something new about the (many) issues of the Quran.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6543 - May 04, 2019, 03:07 AM

    Quote
    she does not used her "conjectures" built in Hagarism and Meccan trade in all of her articles related to the Quran. None.


    This is wrong, however.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6544 - May 04, 2019, 03:07 AM

    There is nothing significant about that twitter thread.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6545 - May 04, 2019, 03:08 AM

    Persian Arabs (yawn...)


    Damn. I was right, I guess?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6546 - May 04, 2019, 03:09 AM

    Quote
    Anthony  learned the subject of "How to conduct objective investigation on early Islamic history"  from working with dr.  Crone as her student...  he would be a stupd to forget that and criticize that book


    This does not make sense? Why should he not criticize that book? 
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6547 - May 04, 2019, 07:02 AM

    Mahgraye, what is the main problem with Hagarism?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6548 - May 04, 2019, 07:49 AM

    Bjorn,

    I think it is fashionable to be in "the middle". It's the moral superior position to take tehse days. Scientists/historians are not immune to it since revising too much puts you on the side lines.

    But beside that, it is true that some ultra-revisionists stand points have been proven to be wrong:eg late closure of Quran, ultra rereading by Luxenberg...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6549 - May 04, 2019, 08:35 AM

    Mundi, you write

    "But beside that, it is true that some ultra-revisionists stand points have been proven to be wrong:eg late closure of Quran, ultra rereading by Luxenberg..."

    Can you explain more about "the late closure of Quran"?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6550 - May 04, 2019, 09:32 AM

    This does not make sense? Why should he not criticize that book? 


     common dr. Mahgraye .. give me a break .. give me a bit of time to complete the post .. I do many things and sometimes i miss type or miss few words in a post ..  Cheesy     but you caught  me with my pants down...

     Yes people should be able criticize AND MUST HAVE FREEDOM TO CRITICIZE any book...and every book...

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6551 - May 04, 2019, 09:50 AM

    Altara  says 
    Pregill is less than nothing in the field.  "C&C Revisionism Factory" is a fake news. Suffice to read Crone ; she believed in the existence of "Muhammad", she does not used her "conjectures" built in Hagarism and Meccan trade in all of her articles related to the Quran. None.  It could be interesting for some scholars to continue to make believe in this legend. Thus, they have "enemies" they can deal with as they are incapable to produce something new about the (many) issues of the Quran.

      and Mahgraye  says Altara  IS WRONG  on those highlighted words.
    This is wrong, however.

     May be Altara  did not phrase his words correctly on that book  that book   and her subsequent work on  Islam dear Mahgraye

    So let me re-read that post and also question  Altara on his words.. because i like late Patrica Crone and he stellar work on early Islam..  hello Altara  on this
    Quote
    Pregill is less than nothing in the field.  "C&C Revisionism Factory" is a fake news

    . I say AMRIKA Oil money  from sand land saud snakes occupied  lands talks .. . AMRIKA Oil money from sand land saud snakes occupied  lands   buys  things...... buys people ......  buys criminals to kill people in the name of Islam

    what is the big deal if few western university faculty members gets sold...

    as  far as this concerned
    Quote
    Suffice to read Crone ; she believed in the existence of "Muhammad", she does not used her "conjectures" built in Hagarism and Meccan trade in all of her articles related to the Quran. None.  It could be interesting for some scholars to continue to make believe in this legend. Thus, they have "enemies" they can deal with as they are incapable to produce something new about the (many) issues of the Quran.

    i too did not get it., 

    you mean to say she stopped exploring early Islam after that book Hagarism  because she accepts bit of Islamic history  from Quran and hadith that there was a person called "Muhammad "??


    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6552 - May 04, 2019, 10:05 AM

    Quote
    Yes people should be able criticize AND MUST HAVE FREEDOM TO CRITICIZE any book...and every book...


    Apologies, dear Yeezevee, haha. My question did pertain to the freedom of doing so, but rather, pertaining to the relationship between Anthony being a student of Crone and criticizing her book, meaning, what is the inconsistency. That is all.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6553 - May 04, 2019, 10:27 AM

    This is wrong, however.


    You do like Pregill.
    It is the origin of the Quran the issue, nothing else. She admitted in Hagarism the existence of Muhammad because of the Doctrina Jacobi. Therefore she considered the narrative as historical concerning the production of the text. Dealing with the Quran (in her numerous thematic  articles- pagan, angel, etc) she never said : "Folks, I have said in Hagarism/Meccan trade  X things, therefore what says the Quran does not fit..." She never used whatever she said in Hagarism/Meccan trade to test the Quran. It is logic as she never contested the existence of Muhammad, nor the "Mecca" one (what I do) she was then obliged to turn to the narrative to explain it. And the narrative is the frame Mecca/Medina/Zem zem. Nothing else.
    What one might admit is that she put further north the place of Mecca. But it changes nothing to the Quran issue, namely the production of the text described in the narrative ( prophet/war, etc)that she never contests. Never.
    She is therefore a false sceptic, a great believer. That she was targeted as such does not mean that she was really one. The question is : what agenda it serves to designate her as such? Whereas she was not, suffices to read her.
    Moreover, dear Maghraye, you're unable to say what she's skeptical about. What exactly?
    And how that would change from the narrative? In fact nothing.





  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6554 - May 04, 2019, 10:49 AM

    Quote
    You do like Pregill.


    I neither like nor dislike him. This is has nothing to do with Pregill. My issue is with your assessment of Crone, to which I have written an 8 paged (albeit unfinished) response (based on our last discussion of her), believe it or not. I am actually considering making it a proper essay contra what Parker wrote on academia. Anyway.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6555 - May 04, 2019, 12:02 PM

    Bjorn:

    Quote
    Can you explain more about "the late closure of Quran"?


    It is clear to me and 90 % proven (C14) that the rasm was fixed by 650, maybe earlier. So for me the position "closure of rasm beginning 8th C" is wrong. Quite simple, no?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6556 - May 04, 2019, 12:53 PM

    My issue is with your assessment of Crone, to which I have written an 8 paged (albeit unfinished) response (based on our last discussion of her), believe it or not. I am actually considering making it a proper essay contra what Parker wrote on academia. Anyway.

    He has modified his paper. Academia is offline now. I translated it on the web :

    Therefore: "The only way out of this dilemma is to get out of the Islamic tradition and start again." P. Crone & M. Cook, Hagarism, op. cit., 1977, p. 3.

    Not really. "The only way..." would have been to question, first, the foundation of this tradition: the existence, within the supposedly historical framework of the Muslim narrative's "Mecca/Medina / Prophet Mohammed", of the figure presented as having produced the Koranic corpus in a specific place and time. And according to it, no others. Having well understood the problem , that it is in fact only partially "start again" it, she immediately settles it following this explanatory statement. She does so by taking out of its hat an external and contemporary source of the events of the 7th century, considered as validating the existence of a prophetic figure accompanying them. A well-known source which, de facto, implies, seen from here and now, in one way or another, that it is this figure that produces the Koranic corpus presented by the Muslim narrative framework. Indeed, who could it be? Almost all of the research has followed. Prophetic figure related to the events of the 7th century, mentioned in this source, namely, the Doctrina Jacobi nuper baptizati. The link between the two is immediately accepted, as the importance of the "Mecca/Medina / Prophet Mohammed" framework is naturally intense. It becomes difficult to put a source to a rigorous examination when it allows the problem of the historical existence of Mohammed to be solved/discarded and then removed by identifying the prophetic figure in question with that of the Muslim narrative. In what it proposes to do, we will consider that Hagarism is therefore vitiated from the very beginning . It's a real-false "start again". Leaving "the Islamic tradition and starting over" cannot avoid questioning the historical foundation of the Muslim narrative which is the framework "Mecca/Medina / Prophet Mohammed", not only as a vector and explanation of the events of the 7th century as quietly stated in all school textbooks, but also as an explanation that it gives to the existence of the Koranic corpus. Because in the Muslim narrative, everything is linked. If the Arabs did what they did in the 7th century, and are what they are at the beginning of the 9th century, for them, it is because of the preaching of the Koranic corpus in Mecca/Medina at the origin of these historical events. And nothing else. See L.I. Conrad, "Al-Azdī's History of the Arab Conquests in Bilād al-Shām: Some Historiographical Observations" in Bakhit, M.A., (ed.) Proceedings of the Second Symposium on the History of Bilad al-Sham During The Early Islamic Period Up to 40 A.H./640 A.D., Amman, p.28-62, p.40, n.46.

    Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6557 - May 04, 2019, 05:11 PM

    Apologies, dear Yeezevee, haha. My question did pertain to the freedom of doing so, but rather, pertaining to the relationship between Anthony being a student of Crone and criticizing her book, meaning, what is the inconsistency. That is all.

    Mahgraye ....dear  Mahgraye..  Dear Greek Muslim(just kidding)   i protest.. I protest  your apologies  and POSTS OF ALL OF YOU GUYS .w.r.t that book   that book    finmad

    I  SAY AGAIN NONE OF YOU GUYS READ THAT BOOK CAREFULLY...

    and on that shahanSean what i said was this...
    https://twitter.com/shahanSean

    Anthony  learned the subject of "How to conduct objective investigation on early Islamic history"  from working with dr.  Crone as her student...  he would be a stupid to forget that and criticize that book  without properly reading and analyzing what the book is saying...

    please read the post AND READ THAT BOOK AGAIN..

    Quote
    Preface

    PART 1: WHENCE ISLAM?

    1 Judeo-Hagarism
    2 Hagarism without Judaism
    3 The Prophet like Moses
    4 The Samaritan calques
    5 · Babylonia

    Appendix I: The Kenite; Reason and custom

    PART II: WHITHER ANTIQUITY?

    6 The imperial civilizations
    7 The Near-Eastern provinces

    PART Ill: THE COLLISION

    8 The preconditions for the formation of Islamic civilization
    9 The fate of Antiquity: I. The Hagarisation of the Fertile Crescent
    10 The fate of Antiquity: II. The cultural expropriation of the Fertile Crescent .
    11 The fate of Antiquity: III. The intransigence of Islamic civilization
    12 The fate of Hagarism
    1 3 Sadducee Islam
    14 The austerity of Islamic history

    Appendix II: Lex Fufia Caninia and the Muslim law of bequests

    Notes to the text
    Bibliography
    Indices

     
    You see that book is 279 pages small book    in fact it is a booklet of only 140 pages or so if you remove  that last part of the book   Notes to the text.,   Bibliography.,    Indices

    I have given link of that book innumerable times and again i put that in this post .. PLEASE READ IT.. and after reading ..
    Quote
    PATRICIA CRONE
    SENIOR RESEARCH FELLOW. THE WARBURG INSTITUTE
    UNIVERSITY OF LONDON

    MICHAEL COOK
    LECTURER IN ECONOMIC HISTORY WITH REFERENCE
    TO THE MIDDLE EAST.
    SCHOOL OF ORIENTAL AND AFRICAN STUDIES


     please tell me what did that 40  year old  PATRICIA CRONE'S book say  on "Muhammad".. The prophet of Islam??............

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6558 - May 04, 2019, 05:24 PM

    He has modified his paper. Academia is offline now. I translated it on the web :

    Therefore: "The only way out of this dilemma is to get out of the Islamic tradition and start again." P. Crone & M. Cook, Hagarism, op. cit., 1977, p. 3.

    Not really. "The only way..." would have been to question, first, the foundation of this tradition: the existence, within the supposedly historical framework of the Muslim narrative's "Mecca/Medina / Prophet Mohammed", of the figure presented as having produced the Koranic corpus in a specific place and time. And according to it, no others. Having well understood the problem , that it is in fact only partially "start again" it, she immediately settles it following this explanatory statement. She does so by taking out of its hat an external and contemporary source of the events of the 7th century, considered as validating the existence of a prophetic figure accompanying them. A well-known source which, de facto, implies, seen from here and now, in one way or another, that it is this figure that produces the Koranic corpus presented by the Muslim narrative framework. Indeed, who could it be? Almost all of the research has followed. Prophetic figure related to the events of the 7th century, mentioned in this source, namely, the Doctrina Jacobi nuper baptizati. The link between the two is immediately accepted, as the importance of the "Mecca/Medina / Prophet Mohammed" framework is naturally intense. It becomes difficult to put a source to a rigorous examination when it allows the problem of the historical existence of Mohammed to be solved/discarded and then removed by identifying the prophetic figure in question with that of the Muslim narrative. In what it proposes to do, we will consider that Hagarism is therefore vitiated from the very beginning . It's a real-false "start again". Leaving "the Islamic tradition and starting over" cannot avoid questioning the historical foundation of the Muslim narrative which is the framework "Mecca/Medina / Prophet Mohammed", not only as a vector and explanation of the events of the 7th century as quietly stated in all school textbooks, but also as an explanation that it gives to the existence of the Koranic corpus. Because in the Muslim narrative, everything is linked. If the Arabs did what they did in the 7th century, and are what they are at the beginning of the 9th century, for them, it is because of the preaching of the Koranic corpus in Mecca/Medina at the origin of these historical events. And nothing else. See L.I. Conrad, "Al-Azdī's History of the Arab Conquests in Bilād al-Shām: Some Historiographical Observations" in Bakhit, M.A., (ed.) Proceedings of the Second Symposium on the History of Bilad al-Sham During The Early Islamic Period Up to 40 A.H./640 A.D., Amman, p.28-62, p.40, n.46.

    Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator

    Huh! did you write those highlighted words or did you tranalate that post  from some French publication??

    WHO WROTE THAT AND WHEN dear Altara .. was it before 1977??

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6559 - May 04, 2019, 05:26 PM

    Jerome Parker wrote it.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6560 - May 04, 2019, 05:26 PM

    What did Hagarism say about Muḥammad? If I remember correctly, not much, apart from the following:

    -   He existed.
    -   He was an Arab.
    -   He allied with Jews.
    -   He preached the return of the Messiah
    -   He initiated the Near Eastern conquests.
    -   He sought the Holy Land.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6561 - May 04, 2019, 05:29 PM

    Quote
    He has modified his paper. Academia is offline now. I translated it on the web :

    Parker sent me a translation of his paper. Still, I did write a response to your previous claims about Crone regarding the hijrah, which obviously touched upon all this.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6562 - May 04, 2019, 05:30 PM

    What did Hagarism say about Muhammad? If I remember correctly, not much, apart from him existing,................

    well then why criticize her and that book dear  Mahgraye?...   did dr. Lawrence  Conrad  say that?  and is this publication   on web?

    Quote
    L.I. Conrad, ..... Proceedings of the Second Symposium on the History of Bilad al-Sham During The Early Islamic Period Up to 40 A.H./640 A.D., Amman, p.28-62, p.40, n.46......


    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6563 - May 04, 2019, 05:31 PM

    I updated my response. And I don't know what Conrad has anything to do with this.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6564 - May 04, 2019, 05:33 PM

    Jerome Parker wrote it.


    oh !  you mean this one...

    https://www.academia.edu/38617836/Patricia_Crone_sceptique_et_r%C3%A9visionniste_quelques_remarques

    that is pubed in 2019...

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6565 - May 04, 2019, 05:34 PM

    Yes. He must have updated it.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6566 - May 04, 2019, 05:38 PM

    What did Hagarism say about Muḥammad? If I remember correctly, not much, apart from the following:

    -   He existed.
    -   He was an Arab.
    -   He allied with Jews.
    -   He preached the return of the Messiah
    -   He initiated the Near Eastern conquests.
    -   He sought the Holy Land.


    well  i considered that as true history of  early Islam... anyone who says "Muhammad" of Quran and Muhammad of hadith did not exist ... to those I say  . READ QURAN..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6567 - May 04, 2019, 05:50 PM

    I updated my response. And I don't know what Conrad has anything to do with this.

    well Altara gave that  reference  in his post
    He has modified his paper. Academia is offline now. I translated it on the web :

    Therefore: "The only way out of this dilemma is to get out of the Islamic tradition and start again." P. Crone & M. Cook, Hagarism, op. cit., 1977, p. 3.

    Not really. "The only way..." would have been to question, first, the foundation of this tradition: the existence, within the supposedly historical framework of the Muslim narrative's "Mecca/Medina / Prophet Mohammed", of the figure presented as having produced the Koranic corpus in a specific place and time. And according to it, no others. Having well understood the problem , that it is in fact only partially "start again" it, she immediately settles it following this explanatory statement. She does so by taking out of its hat an external and contemporary source of the events of the 7th century, considered as validating the existence of a prophetic figure accompanying them. A well-known source which, de facto, implies, seen from here and now, in one way or another, that it is this figure that produces the Koranic corpus presented by the Muslim narrative framework. Indeed, who could it be? Almost all of the research has followed. Prophetic figure related to the events of the 7th century, mentioned in this source, namely, the Doctrina Jacobi nuper baptizati. The link between the two is immediately accepted, as the importance of the "Mecca/Medina / Prophet Mohammed" framework is naturally intense. It becomes difficult to put a source to a rigorous examination when it allows the problem of the historical existence of Mohammed to be solved/discarded and then removed by identifying the prophetic figure in question with that of the Muslim narrative. In what it proposes to do, we will consider that Hagarism is therefore vitiated from the very beginning . It's a real-false "start again". Leaving "the Islamic tradition and starting over" cannot avoid questioning the historical foundation of the Muslim narrative which is the framework "Mecca/Medina / Prophet Mohammed", not only as a vector and explanation of the events of the 7th century as quietly stated in all school textbooks, but also as an explanation that it gives to the existence of the Koranic corpus. Because in the Muslim narrative, everything is linked. If the Arabs did what they did in the 7th century, and are what they are at the beginning of the 9th century, for them, it is because of the preaching of the Koranic corpus in Mecca/Medina at the origin of these historical events. And nothing else
    . See L.I. Conrad, "Al-Azdī's History of the Arab Conquests in Bilād al-Shām: Some Historiographical Observations" in Bakhit, M.A., (ed.) Proceedings of the Second Symposium on the History of Bilad al-Sham During The Early Islamic Period Up to 40 A.H./640 A.D., Amman, p.28-62, p.40, n.46.

    Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator

     and  i was bit confused  why dr. Conard's work needs that  DeepL.com/Translator   Cheesy

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6568 - May 04, 2019, 05:51 PM

    please tell me what did that 40  year old  PATRICIA CRONE'S book say  on "Muhammad".. The prophet of Islam??............


    That he has existed (understated: therefore has written the Quran as recounted by the narrative. If she had  thought the contrary she would have stated it in the same passage (p.3) ).

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6569 - May 04, 2019, 05:57 PM

    That he has existed (understated: therefore has written the Quran as recounted by the narrative. If she had  thought the contrary she would have stated it in the same passage (p.3) ).

    well  you got to read that first 140 pages book again dear Altara .

    .. After reading Quran and hadith many many times.,  Even I would say that "Muhammad" existed .. In fact i said innumerable times i wrote "Multiple Muhammads" existed in early Islam

    and here I say to you.,  you are in right track w.r.t Mecca ..Madina.. Zamzam...  as far as "Muhammad" is concerned I reserve my comments ..

    One must realize "Muhammad" is title.. NOT proper name..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Previous page 1 ... 217 218 219220 221 ... 285 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »