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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6360 - March 30, 2019, 10:13 AM

    That is not the period we are looking at. That period is not relevant for early 7th C.

    -6th and 7th century means that you are talking about Quran and quranic authors   NOT ISLAM... as faith  ...

    Removing the folks that are/were born to Muslim parents .,  I think the principle/s behind  propagation and expansion of Islam is same in the beginning of Islam,  in 17th century and even today dear mundi ..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6361 - March 30, 2019, 12:06 PM

    Concerning Nazarenes:

    Dye says that an existing judeo-christian sect is not necessary to come to the Quranic christology of the beginning of the 7th C.


    Yes. This trend  was initiated (to my knowledge...) by Griffith in his articles since 2007. Most of them. I know it because I remake his articles from academia, to make them easily readable. They are very interesting, it is a must read. Reynolds supports this view as well (Jésus et l'islam video) Dye is sceptic about the main concept of Jewish Christianity (Jewish Christianity and the Origins of Islam) therefore he falls automatically one way or another on Griffith/Reynolds side who putting aside Jewish Christianity .

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6362 - March 30, 2019, 12:08 PM

    Yes. Dye is very skeptical. He was the one who actually made me skeptical on the matter. You also have Shoemaker, Segovia.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6363 - March 30, 2019, 12:40 PM

    That is why I say that the Quranic nasara are Christians, as says Griffith, Reynolds and Dye and that the Nazarene of Epiphanius are not only the Quranic ones, but as such  have probably never existed (Luomanen is convincing about that, Dye well noted it..https://www.academia.edu/29337431Review_in_French_of_Luomanen_and_Marjanen_A_Companion_to_Second-Century_Christian_Heretics_Brill_2005.)
    BUT I understand very well why scholars doubted it. (de Blois, Pritz, Gallez, Gnilka, etc) I consider now the topic settled for me. The Nazarene stuff was in fact the door for concrete Jewish Christianity physical presence in the Quran. I can only advice to read carefully the Griffith articles (start in 2007) where he alludes constantly to this topic. He has devoted these lasts years to it, each time, progressing. 
    Moreover, there are no longer articles (to my knowledge...) which address it attempting to convince that the nasara are Jewish Christians.
    The Gallez thesis is therefore collapsing. I say it (again, yawn...) Gallez has made a wonderful work, but his general Judaeo-Nazorean as represented by the Quranic Nasara thesis is no longer valid and has to be (for me...) put aside.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6364 - March 30, 2019, 12:55 PM

    You said Griffith articles on this matter started in 2007. What article from 2007? As to your overall assessment, I will have it in mind, but not sure if the matter is settled. Will have to do my own serious reading before taking a stance. Thanks.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6365 - March 30, 2019, 01:23 PM

    SYRIACISMS IN THE ARABIC QURAN :Who were “those who said ‘Allah is third of three’” according to al-Maʾida 73? in A Word Fitly Spoken: Studies in Mediaeval Exegesis of the Hebrew Bible and the Qurʾān, presented to Haggai Ben-Shammai, ed. M.M. Bar-Asher, et al.(Jerusalem: The Ben Zvi Institute, 2007), 83-110.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6366 - March 30, 2019, 06:05 PM

    Ah! That article. Do you have access to it?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6367 - March 30, 2019, 06:06 PM

    Daniel A. Beck (2019) - Quranic Fire and Quranic Sins: The Eschatological Curses of Q 111 (Sūrat Al-Masad) and Q 85 (Sūrat Al-Burūğ) In Their Late Antique Apocalyptic Context

    Quote
    The Qur'ān frequently describes the hellfire that will punish sinners. Yet the Qur'ān rarely attributes 'fire' to persons in the present life. The major exceptions are (1) the Abū Lahab ("Father of Flame") who Q 111 condemns to hell; and (2) the "companions of the pit" of Q 85, who apparently killed martyrs with fire. Q 111 and 85 are normally treated as minor quranic curiosities, with little bearing on the prophetic function. This paper argues, by contrast, that they were crucial to the early prophetic mission. Two analytical principles are used to elucidate and recover the forceful logic that animates both surahs. First, early quranic theology embodies a precise economy of salvation, in which future punishments and rewards are rigidly equivalent to a person's prior good or evil acts. Its individual eschatology is symmetric, in Iranian fashion. Many surahs exalt in how God will pair righteous men with pure females in paradise, the houris. Yet when Q 111 proclaims that the Father of Flame will soon enter hell "and his woman (will be) the firewood carrier," the tradition does not interpret this woman to be a hellish counterpart of the houris, created to punish Abū Lahab. Instead she is asserted to be the literal wife of a Meccan man who was literally named 'Abū Lahab.' Against that traditional view, I argue that the individual eschatology of basal surahs parallels late-antique Zoroastrianism, in which male humans were believed to meet female embodiments of their own ethical state-good or evil-after death. Sinners would then be eternally tormented by their own sins. In this mode, Q 111 proclaims that Abū Lahab will be punished by eternal joinder to the female embodiment of his own worldly sins. Q 85 likewise proclaims that its wicked men would be punished by their own actions. When the companions of the pit had martyred the believers trapped beneath them, they were heaping firewood beneath their own future selves in hell. Second, the earliest surahs were intensely anti-Sasanian. The warner began his career by proclaiming that God's final judgment had begun to manifest via angelic agency against Khusrow II, the Sasanian šāhānšāh. Khusrow II was cursed as Abū Lahab because his expansion campaign (602-28 CE) had ignited warfare across the Near East. In the same anti-Sasanian mode, Q 85 curses the Sasanians for slaughtering Jerusalem's Christians in connection with the brutal siege of 614 CE. This was the era's most significant contemporary martyrdom, and it centered on a horrific massacre that the Sasanian forces committed in a dry reservoir outside the holy city's gates.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6368 - March 30, 2019, 06:37 PM

    On Beck:

    All this is speculation. How could he know these "early" Surahs were anti Sassanian? He doesn't even know for sure if these Surah's are early. Persians are never named on top of that.

    Beck relies heavily on the tradition, doesn't question the main traditional story line  of events and timeline. He then rearranges some bells and whistles.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6369 - March 30, 2019, 06:42 PM

    My thoughts, too. Did he change his views? He seemed much more skeptical and revisionist before? And does his follow the tradition heavily? He suggestions are not in line with the narrative?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6370 - March 30, 2019, 07:14 PM

    On Beck:

    As far as I know, as so many, he respects the skeleton of the tradition. I have the impression that that is solid ground for academics.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6371 - March 30, 2019, 07:56 PM

    Quote
    SYRIACISMS IN THE ARABIC QURAN :Who were “those who said ‘Allah is third of three’” according to al-Maʾida 73? in A Word Fitly Spoken: Studies in Mediaeval Exegesis of the Hebrew Bible and the Qurʾān, presented to Haggai Ben-Shammai, ed. M.M. Bar-Asher, et al.(Jerusalem: The Ben Zvi Institute, 2007), 83-110.

    Ah! That article. Do you have access to it?



      SYRIACISMS IN THE ARABIC QURAN  by Sidney H Griffith

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6372 - March 30, 2019, 07:59 PM

    Thanks, Yeezeeve.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6373 - March 30, 2019, 08:02 PM

    Surah 111 is about Korah, not about Abu Lahab who never existed so it is not anti-sassanian, at least in relation with its reason for being written in the first place.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6374 - March 30, 2019, 08:10 PM

    Surah 111 is about Korah, not about Abu Lahab who never existed so it is not anti-sassanian, at least in relation with its reason for being written in the first place.

    hi Marc ...  give some story links of "Korah"  when you say something like that....  such as

    "Korah" story from   The Torah

    "Korah" in bible verses.....Numbers 16  .

    well i  would not say that until we have real proof.,,  Abu Lahab could be real character of early Islam...

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6375 - March 30, 2019, 08:12 PM

    I literally thought about you, Marc S, when I saw Beck's article. Can you please provide the links concerning the relationship between Korah and Q 111? And Korah is a Biblical story, right?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6376 - March 30, 2019, 08:25 PM

    hi Marc ...  give some story links of "Korah"  when you say something like that....  such as

    well i  would not say that until we have real proof.,,  Abu Lahab could be real character of early Islam...



    I already spoke about this. I was actually convinced by this page (it is in French but you might translate it in English with Google)  http://www.lechampdumidrash.net/ancien/mobile/articles.php?lng=fr&pg=584
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6377 - March 30, 2019, 08:27 PM

    I literally thought about you, Marc S, when I saw Beck's article. Can you please provide the links concerning the relationship between Korah and Q 111? And Korah is a Biblical story, right?


    Yes Korah is a biblical story expanded through midrash though.

    I can only provide that link in French http://www.lechampdumidrash.net/ancien/mobile/articles.php?lng=fr&pg=584

    What also re-inforced my convinction is Gabriel Sawma when translating verse 5 and saying it should be read as the rope to which they will be hanged or something like this ; that was the fate of Korah.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6378 - March 30, 2019, 08:57 PM

    I already spoke about this. I was actually convinced by this page (it is in French but you might translate it in English with Google)  http://www.lechampdumidrash.net/ancien/mobile/articles.php?lng=fr&pg=584


    my question is slightly different dear Marc., may be I didn't understand your point .. you said
    Surah 111 is about Korah, not about Abu Lahab who never existed so it is not anti-sassanian, at least in relation with its reason for being written in the first place.

    I guess you meant  "Surah 111  IS NOT Anti-Sasanian"., first of all "DOES IT NEED TO BE SURAH"" after all it is just a five lines.. could we put  that in to any surah make Quran as 113 Surahs instead of 114?? lol.. anyways let me put it here

    Quote
    Perish the hands of the Father of Flame! Perish he!
    His wealth will not avail him or that which he gained
    He shall soon burn in fire that flames,
    And his wife, the bearer of fuel,
    Around her neck is a rope of fiber.


    First question to you is why anyone should think that Surah or any verse in Quran  as a Anti-Sasanian

    well let me paste  brief history of Persia during that time

    Quote
    Historical Summary


    Around 224 A.D., Ardashir I (r. 224–241), a descendant of Sasan who gave his name to the new Sasanian dynasty, defeated the Parthians. The Sasanians saw themselves as the successors of the Achaemenid Persians. One of the most energetic and able Sasanian rulers was Shapur I (r. 241–272). During his reign, the central government was strengthened, the coinage was reformed, and Zoroastrianism was made the state religion.

    The expansion of Sasanian power in the West brought conflict with Rome. In 260 A.D., Shapur I took the Roman emperor Valerian prisoner in a battle near Edessa. Thereafter, the defense of Rome’s eastern frontier was left to the ruler of Palmyra, a caravan city in Syria. By the end of Shapur I’s reign, the Sasanian empire stretched from the River Euphrates to the River Indus and included modern-day Armenia and Georgia.

    After a short period during which much territory was lost, Sasanian fortunes were restored during the long reign of Shapur II (r. 310–379). He reestablished control over the Kushans in the east and campaigned in the desert against the Arabs. Conflict with Rome resulted once again in Sasanian control of northern Mesopotamia and Armenia.

    During the fifth century, tribal movements in Central Asia resulted in Hephthalite Huns creating an extensive empire centered on Afghanistan. After a disastrous campaign, the Sasanians were forced to pay tribute to their new eastern neighbors. Iran recovered her glory during the reign of Khusrau I (r. 531–79), who defeated the Hephthalites. However, in the years following Khusrau’s death, there were internal revolts and wars with the Byzantine empire. This weakened Iran, and Arab forces, united under Islam, defeated the Sasanian armies in 642. The last Sasanian ruler, Yazdgard III, died in 651.

    Sasanian Art
    Sasanian art borrowed from ancient Near Eastern and Greco-Roman traditions to express a new Iranian cultural identity, particularly manifest in prestigious monuments and objects connected to the royal court. Secure dates for many Sasanian buildings and works of art are difficult to determine, in part due to the lack of material from documented archaeological contexts. Trade, conquest, and diplomacy resulted in the diffusion of Sasanian luxury arts both east and west during the four centuries of Sasanian rule.

    The most renowned Sasanian objects are finely crafted silver vessels produced in large numbers in Iran and Mesopotamia. They were usually hammered into shape and then decorated using a variety of techniques. Typical shapes include high-footed bowls, ewers, vases, and plates. Many feature imagery derived from Greco-Roman iconography whose significance was adapted for the Sasanian repertoire. The bearded nude dancing male figure in the center of a silver-gilt bowl is possibly Silenos, leader of the Greek wine god Dionysos’ satyrs, surrounded by grape clusters and vines (59.130.1). Dancing female figures on Sasanian ewers and vases resemble maenads (Dionysos’ attendants) and personifications of the Seasons: the motif appears only on pouring vessels, suggesting that they had a ceremonial or cultic function linked to Zoroastrianism, the state religion (67.10a, b). A silver plate with images of two young spearmen and winged horses borrows from images of Bellerophon and Pegasus as well as of the Dioskouroi (the divine twins Castor and Pollux), the constellation Gemini, called do-paykar in Middle Persian astronomical texts (63.152).

    Beginning during the reign of Shapur II (r. 310–379), the king as hunter, a powerful theme symbolizing the prowess of Sasanian rulers, became a standard royal image on silver plates that were most likely official state products and were often sent as gifts to neighboring courts. The kings are identifiable sometimes by inscriptions and often by their crowns through comparisons with their portraits on coins (99.35.2965). Yazdgard I (r. 399–420), recognizable by his crown, is depicted on a gilded silver plate spearing a rearing stag with a crescent-tipped lance (1970.6). The king on horseback hunting rams on another example (34.33) has various royal attributes, including a crown and fillet, a covered globe, a nimbus with beaded border, and a beaded chest halter with fluttering ribbons: he is either Peroz I (r. 459–484) or Kavad I (r. 488–497, 499–531). A silver-gilt plate decorated with images of the Sasanian king Bahram V (Bahram Gur) and Azadeh (1994.402) is the earliest known representation of a story made famous in the Persian epic the Shahnama (Book of Kings) (57.51.32), a popular subject in the art of much later periods (57.36.2).

    Hunting scenes, battles, and royal investitures are featured on the monumental Sasanian rock reliefs carved on the mountain cliffs of Iran and other sites in western Asia. Most were carved within the Sasanian home province of Pars during the first 175 years of the empire, between the reigns of Ardashir I (r. 224–241) and Shapur III (r. 383–388). Drawings of various reliefs were made by Iranian artists as well as by European travelers to Iran in the nineteenth century: subjects include the equestrian investiture of Ardashir I, who receives the ring of office from the Zoroastrian god Ahura Mazda at Naqsh-i Rustam in southern Iran (1998.6.3).

    Colorful stucco decorated both the interiors and exteriors of Sasanian royal palaces and elite residences. Ctesiphon, located on the Tigris River 20 miles (30 km) south of modern Baghdad, served as the Sasanian court’s winter capital and was the location of the Taq-i Kisra, the fabled palace of Khusrau I (r. 531–79). Remains of its legendary vaulted throne hall, housing the largest parabolic barrel vault in the world, still exist today. Stucco wall panels from Umm ez-Za‘tir, a large house near Ctesiphon, include plaques decorated with animals and floral and geometric designs that attest to the lavishness of Sasanian architectural decoration (32.150.22; 32.150.23; 32.150.48).

    Sasanian luxury arts also include seals made from precious and semi-precious stones (22.139.41), textiles including silks (2004.255), and glass and ceramic vessels (59.34; 1997.31). Objects were traded via sea and land routes that connected Europe and East and South Asia. Peripheral workshops that adapted Sasanian designs and produced silver vessels in particular were established in Central Asia, western Iran, and areas south of the Caspian Sea. As Sasanian culture spread abroad, the imagery and style of Sasanian art left a legacy discernible in the art of early medieval Europe, western Central Asia, and China that endured after the fall of the Sasanian dynasty in the mid-seventh century and the growth of Islam.


    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6379 - March 30, 2019, 08:59 PM

    Korah:

    Yes indeed Marc, you were quite convincing concerning 111. Again an example how complete articles can be written within the paradigm of the tradition and are probably completely off the mark. This is the danger of this paradigm. A virtual history is being written. Never happened, but to the paradigm believers, it seems to have happened.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6380 - March 30, 2019, 10:40 PM

    I am much more comfortable with interpreting the Quran in light of the Bible. Makes much more sense. Really against all this speculation about supposed anti-Sasanian polemics, etc. Feels weird.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6381 - March 31, 2019, 12:51 AM

    Again an example how complete articles can be written within the paradigm of the tradition and are probably completely off the mark. This is the danger of this paradigm. A virtual history is being written. Never happened, but to the paradigm believers, it seems to have happened.:



    It have necessary happened, it is mandatory for the Musims to believe in this history. For scholars the same. Look what hapened to Crone, she was obliged to ran away from England for being so called revisionist whereas the more ironic was that she was not.


    Quote
    On Beck. All this is speculation.

    Worst than Raymond Dequin. dance
    [/quote]
    How could he know these "early" Surahs were anti Sassanian? [/quote]

    I do not know. H.G. Well's machine?
    Quote
    He doesn't even know for sure if these Surah's are early. Persians are never named on top of that.


    Yawn...
    Quote
    Beck relies heavily on the tradition, doesn't question the main traditional story line  of events and timeline. He then rearranges some bells and whistles.


    Maybe he has a lot of fun hearing  his scholars friends (no, no names droppin...) praising him for what he writes (You're so great, exceptional, etc) It distracts him from his real job.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6382 - March 31, 2019, 08:29 AM

    Beck:

    I do think he has original textual finds too. I enjoy his work. But I know (or think I know)  where his perimeter is set out...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6383 - March 31, 2019, 02:49 PM

    Again an example how complete articles can be written within the paradigm of the tradition and are probably completely off the mark. This is the danger of this paradigm. A virtual history is being written. Never happened, but to the paradigm believers, it seems to have happened.:


    It have necessary happened, it is mandatory for the Musims to believe in this history. For scholars the same. Look what happened to Crone, she was obliged to ran away from England for being so called revisionist whereas the more ironic was that she was not.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6384 - March 31, 2019, 03:59 PM

    my question is slightly different dear Marc., may be I didn't understand your point .. you said I guess you meant  "Surah 111  IS NOT Anti-Sasanian"., first of all "DOES IT NEED TO BE SURAH"" after all it is just a five lines.. could we put  that in to any surah make Quran as 113 Surahs instead of 114?? lol.. anyways let me put it here



    What I said are 2 things :

    - this surah is about Korah, not about the imaginary Abou Lahab,
    - this surah was not written originally as anti-sassanian


    All the rest apart from this is pure speculation.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6385 - March 31, 2019, 04:00 PM

    It have necessary happened,  it is mandatory for the Musims to believe in this history. For scholars the same.
    Quote
    Look what happened to Crone, she was obliged to ran away from England for being so called revisionist whereas the more ironic was that she was not.


    hi Altara ., I would agree to disagree with that statement of  yours.,     it is mandatory for the Musims to believe in this history. For scholars the same"

    why is that necessary?  WHO MADE THAT NECESSARY??  Islam at its core should nothing to do with history  

    it is just one statement faith

    La Illah Illa Allah  ... there is no god but god..

    for that EVEN QURAN IS NOT NEEDED..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6386 - March 31, 2019, 06:19 PM

    Quote
    why is that necessary?


    If they did not believe to it, they would not have an explication of the existence of the Quran.

    Quote
    Islam at its core

     is the Quran. Nothing else.


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6387 - March 31, 2019, 06:20 PM

    Islam is a religion. Does this need really saying?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6388 - March 31, 2019, 07:56 PM

    dear  Altara  and dear  Mahgraye..   I am tired and it is a difficult for me to discuss with you guys.. i like more of the other one.. other subjects   such as   "Scholars "  Non-Muslim Scholars and Muslim Scholars writing "HISTORY OF ISLAM AND HISTORY/ORIGINS OF QURAN "

    Islam is a religion. Does this need really saying?

    yes it is..
    Ok it is..

    but dear  Mahgraye  .. what is at its core?   I consider "There is no god but god" is at its core., And the folks who inquire that particular statement  I consider them as "Muslims/Islam followers"

    REST OF ISLAM.. REST OF THE JUNK IN ISLAM.. that includes dirt in Quran, shitty hadith, stupid rituals and  nonsense rules of present Islam in the society are irrelevant to me... 

    Now would it be OK for some folks as Muslims to live this life like that  ..or..or YOU ALL   Muslim and Non-Muslim Scholars do not like such people  who call  themselves as Muslims??  

    If they did not believe to it, they would not have an explication of the existence of the Quran.
     is the Quran. Nothing else.

    dear Altara,

     by saying that   Are you not tightly coupling  ALL MUSLIMS IN TO ONE MONOLITHIC BLOCK and those who differ what you are saying can not be   Muslims and  can not live as Muslim??

    Anyway  I don't like talking this subject of "Who is Muslim and who is not Muslims " in this folder So I politely move on...

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6389 - March 31, 2019, 08:31 PM

    Yeez,

    Quote
    There is no god but god


    Apparently this quote existed already a long time before 622.  ( http://www.lemessieetsonprophete.com/annexes/edito_lmesp_2018b.htm)

    So this creed is not what makes muslims muslim. I think Altara is right here. A muslim is someone who believes at least part of the tradition. If not, even if "believing in the Quran only", it is difficult to consider them muslim, since "muslim"or "Islam" is not mentioned as such in the Quran and is a product of the tradition.


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