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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6210 - March 19, 2019, 03:16 PM

    I have read it. Cited it in my previous post.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6211 - March 19, 2019, 03:21 PM

    I have read it. Cited it in my previous post.

    oh goody....  sorry  too much to read for me..

    Now let us read this simple wiki  ..on the word "Canon and canonization of a book"    itself

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6212 - March 19, 2019, 05:23 PM

    Altara,


    Quote
    Again I can agree on this. But the Q-rasm was there and also according to your theory some knew about 2:127 and directed their people to start building.


    There is no contradiction ; they have some Quranic texts (among them 2,127) totally outisde of the Mecca/Zem Zem frame. How they got them? Allow me to say that it is not the place here to talk about that (for me...) I have, (of course) an explication...

    Quote
    In my mind this could be this set of illuminati (secret society?) directing their "mercenaries" of different beliefs to do certain things.

     

    I'll do no commentary. Why not? But you have to ground this idea.

    One of these things was building mosques with Qiblas to the south (not to Jeruslaem, not to Mecca). We see from early on that their own mosques were built. Someone must of directed people to perform according to a specific ideology that you see connected to the Quran (eg 2:127).

    The sole ideology of 2:127 is that Ishmael, therefore Arabs, are allowed by God to build something on the Temple  Mount to pray God, as did (falsely...) Ishmael with his father Abraham in  2:127.
    Falsely? Yes. The Quran lies when it need it for its agenda
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6213 - March 19, 2019, 05:39 PM

    Altara,

    Quote
    The sole ideology of 2:127 is that Ishmael, therefore Arabs, are allowed by God to build something on the Temple  Mount to pray God, as did (falsely...) Ishmael with his father Abraham in  2:127.


    The discussion is not solely about 2:127. I would say 2:127 is almost a detail. It's about the origins of Islam and the Quran. So the Qibla direction is a necessary topic.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6214 - March 19, 2019, 06:21 PM


     
    Tomasso Tesei:
    We can also have some confidence that he was preaching in Central Arabia and that his movement was in contact with members of a Jewish community—whose presence in the Hijaz is certified by few inscriptions

    Tomasso Tesei is as much a historian as I am an astronaut.

    Furthermore, from very early times, non-Islamic sources associate the new religious movement with the Hijaz. It might be observed that, if Islam had arisen elsewhere and the identification of the latter as its cradle was just an element within an idealized Islamic salvation history, one should assume that by the end of 7th c. this salvation history was already established and so widespread to influence also writers from outside the community of believers. This seems to be quite improbable.


    Tomasso Tesei grounds his affirmations with no sources.
    No sources about the Hijaz. before the mid 8th c. copying the Muslim sources.
    The kernel of the salvation history is established by the end of the 7th c., suffice to read the islamic sources


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6215 - March 19, 2019, 06:23 PM

    He doesn't provide any.


    Hahaha! Why? Cheesy
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6216 - March 19, 2019, 06:28 PM

    Altara,

    The discussion is not solely about 2:127. I would say 2:127 is almost a detail. It's about the origins of Islam and the Quran. So the Qibla direction is a necessary topic.


    I've already explained the Qiblas stuff. In my paradigm, (already explained in numerous previous posts) it is normal.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6217 - March 19, 2019, 06:36 PM



    Quote
    I've already explained the Qiblas stuff. In my paradigm, (already explained in numerous previous posts) it is normal.


    No, I must have missed that. I have no clue how you explain the clear existence of a Qibla and its dierection.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6218 - March 19, 2019, 06:56 PM

    Hahaha! Why? Cheesy


    Draft. He did not provide sources for any claim. He did not even cite himself. Unpublished paper
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6219 - March 19, 2019, 09:24 PM


    No, I must have missed that. I have no clue how you explain the clear existence of a Qibla and its dierection.


    Early Qiblas not pointing "Mecca" are in line with what I say. I say that the Arabs of the "conquests" have nothing to see with the frame Mecca/Zem Zem in which they will be described as actors in the 9th narratives. BUT they had Quranic texts (same way of the Arabs,  Quranic texts did not come from Mecca) Therefore it is normal that they built "masjid" not really toward/pointing  "Mecca", the frame Mekka /Zem Zem being not spread very well .
    Remember that in 730 Muhammad is said receiving his "revelations" in his sleep. (Cf. John of Damascus...)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6220 - March 19, 2019, 09:29 PM

    Draft. He did not provide sources for any claim. He did not even cite himself. Unpublished paper


    You got this in academia?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6221 - March 19, 2019, 09:34 PM

    Quote
    You got this in academia?


    I can't find it on academia. Weird.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6222 - March 20, 2019, 12:24 AM

    You got this in academia?


    The paper will be published by Arabica.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6223 - March 20, 2019, 12:25 AM

    Quote
    Early Qiblas not pointing "Mecca" are in line with what I say. I say that the Arabs of the "conquests" have nothing to see with the frame Mecca/Zem Zem in which they will be described as actors in the 9th narratives. BUT they had Quranic texts (same way of the Arabs,  Quranic texts did not come from Mecca) Therefore it is normal that they built "masjid" not really toward/pointing  "Mecca", the frame Mekka /Zem Zem being not spread very well .


    I think what our dear fried Mundi is trying to say is that qibla point to somewhere. Perhaps not Mecca, but somewhere else they do have a specific direction towards a certain geographical area.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6224 - March 20, 2019, 01:31 AM

    The paper will be published by Arabica.

    I knew I got it: it is a draft of 54 pages.Please do not quote or cite without author’s permission
    I do not want to quote it (yawn...), do not ask me why.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6225 - March 20, 2019, 01:31 AM

    I only have 20 pages.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6226 - March 20, 2019, 01:32 AM

    I think what our dear fried Mundi


    Excellent!

    Quote
    is trying to say is that qibla point to somewhere. Perhaps not Mecca, but somewhere else they do have a specific direction towards a certain geographical area.


    To what point pointed the Temple (the only one...)?
    South...

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6227 - March 20, 2019, 01:33 AM

    I only have 20 pages.


    54 for me  Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6228 - March 20, 2019, 01:34 AM

    Quote
    54 for me  Wink


    Can you share it with me?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6229 - March 20, 2019, 01:35 AM

    Quote
    To what point pointed the Temple (the only one...)?


    Are you saying those early qibla's pointed to Jerusalem? Right?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6230 - March 20, 2019, 01:37 AM

    Nope. I say that they pointed to the same direction the Temple pointed.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6231 - March 20, 2019, 01:38 AM

    Reminds of Crone and the early revisionists, Bashaer, for instance.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6232 - March 20, 2019, 01:40 AM

    No need of Crone or the late Bashear here, just the brain  Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6233 - March 20, 2019, 01:40 AM

    Haha. Well, they first came up with it, so their brains first, haha.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6234 - March 20, 2019, 06:21 AM

    Quote


       is  this 50 pages pre-publication leak same as that 20 pages one?   may be he is writing book chapters  ... or up   for that internal review for the job....     Cheesy .....  the usual dingo scheme in Academics..  ..Cheesy .....
    I knew I got it: it is a draft of 54 pages.Please do not quote or cite without author’s permission
    I do not want to quote it (yawn...), do not ask me why.

    what is in it to Quote?  there are plenty of Quran stories from Academics out there  as publications in libraries

    Anyways Altara giving me new ideas on Quran.....
    There is no contradiction ; they have some Quranic texts (among them 2,127) totally outisde of the Mecca/Zem Zem frame. How they got them? Allow me to say that it is not the place here to talk about that (for me...) I have, (of course) an explication...

    I'll do no commentary. Why not? But you have to ground this idea.

    One of these things was building mosques with Qiblas to the south (not to Jeruslaem, not to Mecca). We see from early on that their own mosques were built. Someone must of directed people to perform according to a specific ideology that you see connected to the Quran (eg 2:127).

    The sole ideology of 2:127 is that Ishmael, therefore Arabs, are allowed by God to build something on the Temple  Mount to pray God, as did (falsely...) Ishmael with his father Abraham in  2:127.
    Falsely? Yes. The Quran lies when it need it for its agenda


    now you are making me to re-read  Quran dear Altara .,  but on those deleted words

    ................. Yes. The Quran lies when it need it for its agenda...........

    why you say that Quranic authors were lying on that verse or around that verse??

    Quote
    [2.120 ] And the Jews will not be pleased with you, nor the Christians until you follow their religion. Say: Surely Allah’s guidance, that is the (true) guidance. And if you follow their desires after the
    knowledge that has come to you, you shall have no guardian from Allah, nor any helper.

    [2.121 ] Those to whom We have given the Book read it as it ought to be read. These believe in it; and whoever disbelieves in it, these it is that are the losers.

    [2.122] O children of Israel, call to mind My favor which I bestowed on you and that I made you excel the nations.

    [2.123 ] And.be on your guard against a day when no soul shall avail another in the least neither shall any compensation be accepted from it, nor shall intercession profit it, nor shall they be helped.

    [2.124] And when his Lord tried Ibrahim with certain words, he fulfilled them. He said: Surely I will make you an Imam of men. Ibrahim said: And of my offspring? My covenant does not include the unjust, said He.

    [2.125] And when We made the House a pilgrimage for men and a (place of) security, and: Appoint for yourselves a place of prayer on the standing-place of Ibrahim. And We enjoined Ibrahim and Ismail saying: Purify My House for those who visit (it) and those who abide (in it) for devotion and those who bow down (and) those who prostrate themselves.

    [2.126] And when Ibrahim said: My Lord, make it a secure town and provide its people with fruits, such of them as believe in Allah and the last day. He said: And whoever disbelieves, I will grant him enjoyment for a short while, then I will drive him to the chastisement of the fire; and it is an evil destination.

    [2.127 ] And when Ibrahim and Ismail raised the foundations of the House: Our Lord! accept from us; surely Thou art the Hearing, the Knowing:

    [2.128 ] Our Lord! and make us both submissive to Thee and (raise) from our offspring a nation submitting to Thee, and show us our ways of devotion and turn to us (mercifully), surely Thou art the Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.

    [2.129 ] Our Lord! and raise up in them an Apostle from among them who shall recite to them Thy communications and teach them the Book and the wisdom, and purify them; surely Thou art the
    Mighty, the Wise.


    [2.130] And who forsakes the religion of Ibrahim but he who makes himself a fool, and most certainly We chose him in this world, and in the hereafter he is most surely among the righteous.

    [2.131] When his Lord said to him, Be a Muslim, he said: I submit myself to the Lord of the worlds.

    [2.132 ] And the same did Ibrahim enjoin on his sons and (so did) Yaqoub. O my sons! surely Allah has chosen for you (this) faith, therefore die not unless you are Muslims.

    [2.133] Nay! were you witnesses when death visited Yaqoub, when he said to his sons: What will you serve after me? They said: We will serve your God and the God of your fathers, Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq, one God only, and to Him do we submit.

    [2.134] This is a people that have passed away; they shall have what they earned and you shall have what you earn, and you shall not be called upon to answer for what they did


    what do you think was their  purpose? for the sake Mecca Story?? To move Citadels of Islam to Mecca Madina?? like the one Dan Gibson Petra  story??

    you  really need to publish.............

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6235 - March 20, 2019, 07:06 AM

    Qiblas:

    Quote
    Perhaps not Mecca, but somewhere else they do have a specific direction towards a certain geographical area.


    I see kind of different directions for early Qiblas. There is indeed Petra for a whole lot, but for some, that direction corresponds with "south". Although usually these Qiblas are not pointing directly south which is easy enough to do if South was intended. 

    But other early mosques (eg in Negev) point to South-East but not enough for Mecca to ahve been intended. And then of course the Aila early mosque pointing to Mount Sinai. Mecca cannot have been intended since visually the builders could see from Aila that Mecca was the other direction. No complicated calculations needed, just their own eyes.

    So my problem here in connection with 2:127 and the ideological building on the Temple Mount is that there seems to be an ideological direction for the Qibla. We have no evidence of this proto-Islam being propagated into the masses, no evidence of Quranic verses being wide spread, no evidence of public recitations trying to convert people (I believe Quran is completely unsuited to convert people). But yet, the conquerors leave archeological traces that they were directed by a well defined ideology. An ideology that even prevented them to merge with the upper class with which they collaborated intensely to rule the lands.

    From there my suggestion of a secret society (or illuminati, is that what you mean by them Altara?)

    We know that societies like that were quite popular in Judaism. We still have today Alawites and Druze that have their origins in such societies. Could explain a lot.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6236 - March 20, 2019, 07:11 AM

    Early Qiblas not pointing "Mecca" are in line with what I say. I say that the Arabs of the "conquests" have nothing to see with the frame Mecca/Zem Zem in which they will be described as actors in the 9th narratives. BUT they had Quranic texts (same way of the Arabs,  Quranic texts did not come from Mecca) Therefore it is normal that they built "masjid" not really toward/pointing  "Mecca", the frame Mekka /Zem Zem being not spread very well .

    Quote
    Remember that in 730 Muhammad is said receiving his "revelations" in his sleep. (Cf. John of Damascus...)


    you mean to  say,    John of Damascus  said/wrote   that " in the year 730 Muhammad is said receiving his "revelations" in his sleep. "

    did i get that right??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6237 - March 20, 2019, 07:14 AM

    .......................

    But other early mosques (eg in Negev) point to South-East but not enough for Mecca to ahve been intended......................

    may be they were NOT mosques  to start with but became mosques  at a  much  later times....

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6238 - March 20, 2019, 07:29 AM

    Quote
    may be they were NOT mosques  to start with but became mosques  at a  much  later times


    These mosques have the Qibla as a feature to recognise them. But you are right, it could have been something else. But the problem remains: from the very start the conquerors build something specifically for/from them that was absent before.

    We also see burials  (none facing Mecca, but on right side, facing same direction as "mosques") that were done in a different way than what was done before for centuries.

    That's why I conclude that a distinctive religious ideology seems to have directed their actions from the beginning. But probably the ones that knew about the details were few (secret society?)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6239 - March 20, 2019, 10:49 AM


    Anyways Altara giving me new ideas on Quran.....now you are making me to re-read  Quran dear Altara .,  but on those deleted words

    ................. Yes. The Quran lies when it need it for its agenda...........

    why you say that Quranic authors were lying on that verse or around that verse??


    Because they have an agenda ; to fit it, they naturally lie (about) and/or contradict many things that people believes and that have been established since ages in their mind :whatever it is (sacrifice of Isaac, etc)

    Quote
    what do you think was their  purpose? for the sake Mecca Story?? To move Citadels of Islam to Mecca Madina?? like the one Dan Gibson Petra  story??


    The Mecca/Kaba/Zem Zem frame is not from the author(s), but from the late 7th c. century Arabs who owns the texts drawn from the Quranic texts.
    Dan Gibson Petra story is interesting in one sole fact: that the 9th c. narrative have taken Petra as the cartographic model of what was they thought how was Mecca in the time of Muhammad.
    For the rest, as I (already) said, directions for early Qiblas, is due the the general south direction of the Temple in Jerusalem.


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