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Theme Changer

 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5400 - February 18, 2019, 11:44 PM

    I still do not know the Crone's understanding of this word.


    Well I haven't read her article on the topic in full but I just remember and understood that she highlighted another meaning for the hijra as moving from one's homeland to settle into garrison town, so in other words people who leave their lands to fight.

    That doesn't sound like the classical meaning if one follows islam narrative.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5401 - February 18, 2019, 11:49 PM

    Altara   says
    Petra was heavily Christianized since middle 5 th c. It seems to me improbable that an Arab from Petra (heavily Christianized) speaking to God during 20+ years and uttering anti Chirstian topoi remains unknown to all this scribal area.  That is why the Gibson's Petra conjecture and  the "further north" (than Mecca) Quraysh sanctuary conjecture of Crone in Meccan trade, about the production of the Quranic text by the "Prophet Muhammad" according to the 9th c. narratives to which both think it has existed,  is (very) improbable as both places are scribal places. From these both scribal places there is no allusion to this kind of figure (speaking to God during 20+ years). Therefore the origin of the Quranic text has nothing to see not only with a non existent "Mecca" place, but also further north as say Crone, or Petra as say Gibson.

      and mundi Questions with mars..
    right. But I am not Crone or Gibson.

    When I try to make sense of the Quran I try to look at different elements. I know Petra region was heavily christianised. And the lack of records about upcoming Islam speaks against the Quran's origins there. But this lack of records exists for all locations.  Maybe it is a coincidence. Should we really only consider Mars as the place of origin of the Quran bc we dont have any records?

      well that is happening here but  I wonder any one of you can  give me some  published information on ...... "Arab Christians  before Islam .......before Quran ......before the year 610  that  first revelation or first verse came to Islamic prophet in that cave at Mt. Hira ....and  and before  Holy Prophet is commissioned as the Messenger of God."....

    I would appreciate if you could get me some info on  questions such as .......

    What were the Names of Arab Christians??  
    and the language they spoke , was it Arabic?  
    was there Arabic Bible before the year 610??
    what geographical area of middle east   .. From Egypt to Iran/Persia did they settle or roam around??

    so many questions and very attempted to address

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5402 - February 19, 2019, 12:26 AM

    right. But I am not Crone or Gibson.

    When I try to make sense of the Quran I try to look at different elements. I know Petra region was heavily christianised. And the lack of records about upcoming Islam speaks against the Quran's origins there. But this lack of records exists for all locations.  Maybe it is a coincidence. Should we really only consider Mars as the place of origin of the Quran bc we dont have any records?


    You need to find a place where talmudic writings did mix with christian ones unless someone took different texts from different people and combined them into a seemingly coherent book.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5403 - February 19, 2019, 12:50 AM

    Well I haven't read her article on the topic in full but I just remember and understood that she highlighted another meaning for the hijra as moving from one's homeland to settle into garrison town, so in other words people who leave their lands to fight.

    That doesn't sound like the classical meaning if one follows islam narrative.


    If you think so.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5404 - February 19, 2019, 01:35 AM

    Altara   says   and mundi Questions with mars..  well that is happening here but  I wonder any one of you can  give me some  published information on ...... "Arab Christians  before Islam .......before Quran ......before the year 610  that  first revelation or first verse came to Islamic prophet in that cave at Mt. Hira ....and  and before  Holy Prophet is commissioned as the Messenger of God."....


    Irfan Shahid "Byzantium and the Arabs" (3 vol.)
    Isabel Toral The ʿIbād of al-Ḥīra_ An Arab Christian Community in Late Antique Iraq; Late Antique Iran and the Arabs: The Case of al-Hira


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5405 - February 19, 2019, 02:52 AM

    Quote
    Irfan Shahid "Byzantium and the Arabs" (3 vol.) Isabel Toral The ʿIbād of al-Ḥīra_ An Arab Christian Community in Late Antique Iraq; Late Antique Iran and the Arabs: The Case of al-Hira


    thanks Altara  for mentioning that name .. Irfan Arif Shahîd,   ..... Irfan Arif Qa'war...... I was actually reading his work from "Byzantium and the Arabs in the Fifth Century"  specially on Vll. BYZANTINISM AND ARABISM: INTERACTION..

    Quote
    Prof. Irfan Shahîd received his B.A. from Oxford University in Classics and Graeco-Roman History and his Ph. D. from Princeton University in Arabic and Islamic Studies. He has been the Oman Professor of Arabic and Islamic Studies at Georgetown since 1982.  His Doctorate thesis was on the theme “Early Islam and Poetry.” Shahid's research interests have ranged over three major areas: Qur'anic Studies, Arabic Literature, and the area where the Graeco-Roman world meets the Arabic-Islamic one, on which he has written six volumes, all published by Dumbarton Oaks, the sixth of which recently appeared in print. Among his publications are:

    1. Rome and the Arabs (1984);
    2. Byzantium and the Arabs in the Fourth Century (1984);
    3. Byzantium and the Arabs in the Fifth Century (1989);
    4. Byzantium and the Arabs in the Sixth Century (1995);
    5.Byzantium and the Semitic Orient before the Rise of Islam (1988).


    All of his work is very important to the investigators of Early Islamic history.,   it is very unfortunate   after 1980s .. all these historians of early Islam  consider Arab Christians  as PORK CHOPS .,  and they completely forgot to highlight them and their history...  You appears to be right in your approach  on  thinking that the present Islam is all about 9th century and after 9th century frame ...

    Again  dr. Irfan Arif Shahîd was a Palestine Arab Christian ., It is interesting their names are more closer to Arab names  than Christian names ., and As usual I wonder about the Name "Muhammad" ..  "The ADJECTIVE to a name"....before Islam..

    are there any other personalities that come your mind on this subject...?? I  guess zeca is the right person to give some input on this subject..  well  let me add this link here The Arabic Bible before Islam – By Clare Wilde

    Though title is attractive I am not certain  Clare Wilde  correctly representing  that Sidney H. Griffith’s book on "The Bible in Arabic"..


    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5406 - February 19, 2019, 07:03 AM

    Yeez,

    I thought Irfan's book on 5th Century Arabs very enlightening (didnt read rest yet...). Indeed it is clear that Arabs in general (the ones inside the Byzantine empire and also the ones outside ("the ones who don't have Greek books") were either completely integrated in structured Christianity or were in touch with it already in the 5th C.

    So finding Arabs being exposed to NT and Hebrew bible to fit with the Quran isnt a problem.  The problem is that there is no info on the formative period (pre conquest) that came to us, 21C. Arabia was not Mars. The big Arab population centers were literate and integrated in the church structures. That is the real puzzle here. How come there is no info of this prophet preaching for 20 years???

    To solve this we have to look at every element:

    1/ Maybe there was no preaching for 20 years? (very likely this was only narrative)
    2/Maybe the new doctrine was developed in a close circle and not influential until the military use of it ? (plausibel)
    3/ We overestimate the completeness of the information transfer from 6 C to 21st C? (plausibel)
    4/ Some info containing clues was destroyed later on to promote the new narrative (Gibson says that)? (plausibel but difficult to errase everything)

    Maybe other people can think of more elements that need to be solved to make the Quran fit in 6th Arabia?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5407 - February 19, 2019, 10:37 AM

    thanks Altara


    I add : Greg Fisher (ed.), Arabs and Empires before Islam (New York:
    Oxford University Press, 2015) Very important book.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5408 - February 19, 2019, 11:33 AM

    let me reverse mundi  post  a bit  and go point by point
    Yeez,

    I thought Irfan's book on 5th Century Arabs very enlightening (didnt read rest yet...)[/size]. Indeed it is clear that Arabs in general (the ones inside the Byzantine empire and also the ones outside ("the ones who don't have Greek books") were either completely integrated in structured Christianity or were in touch with it already in the 5th C.

    mundi..... dear mundi .. YOU NEED TO READ QURAN FIRST before you go to  Irfan's books or Greek books,,, Cheesy Cheesy   Off course people following Christianity  and Judaism   were living in Arabia  along with  other so-called Arab Pagans were living Arabia in fact Altara gave link of mini Arab Kingdoms before Islam .. And Arabic language of that time must be well developed as they were writing songs and sonnets on that language .. To me QURAN IS NOTHING TO DO WITH SUCH ARAB PAGAN FOLKS

    ..........
    To solve this we have to look at every element:

    1/ Maybe there was no preaching for 20 years? (very likely this was only narrative)

    well  true ancient history without proper information on literature and architecture is not an easy task...

    Quote
    2/Maybe the new doctrine was developed in a close circle and not influential until the military use of it ? (plausibel)

     may be there was no doctrine and it is constructed  after military inquisitions  That is what Altara saying all the time .. that word... 9th century frame..   
    Quote
    3/ We overestimate the completeness of the information transfer from 6 C to 21st C? (plausibel)

    there is no doubt about that., why 6th century to 21st C?  In the governing power structures we overestimate the completeness of the information transfer from 2001 to  2019 ...Think about  recent US- Iraq War...

    Quote
    4/ Some info containing clues was destroyed later on to promote the new narrative (Gibson says that)? (plausibel but difficult to errase everything)

    what kind of clues does he think  were destroyed ? I don't know what he says but  He seems to be stuck in that Qiblah black hole of Roman/Arabian Architecture  which to me very little to do with Quran writing..... 

    Quote
    Maybe other people can think of more elements that need to be solved to make the Quran fit in 6th Arabia?

      which Quran?? Why one need to put Quran in to 6th century?  you mean present book compilation/plagiarization??  Almost 70 to 80% of the book is filled with the stories from OT &NT...

    Quote
    So finding Arabs being exposed to NT and Hebrew bible to fit with the Quran isnt a problem.  The problem is that there is no info on the formative period (pre conquest) that came to us, 21C.

      what is this pre-formative period?? what time to what time??   and who was Arab and who was NOT arab at that time?? Were Arabs living Syria?  Were Arab living in present Palestine??   were they living in Iraq/Iran border??

    Quote
    Arabia was not Mars. The big Arab population centers were literate and integrated in the church structures. That is the real puzzle here. How come there is no info of this prophet preaching for 20 years???[/b][/font][/i]


    Can you name those big population centers/towns/cities  of Arabia of 4th and 5th century? And why present Quran need to  be compiled in Arabia??  it could have been put together anywhere between Syria and Iran   or in Jordan.. Palestine and and move around..  all thy way to that Yemen Sana Mosque..

    so many questions to answer dear mundi....

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5409 - February 19, 2019, 12:14 PM

    Quote
    I add : Greg Fisher (ed.), Arabs and Empires before Islam (New York:
    Oxford University Press, 2015) Very important book.

    Yap that is a good one


    Quote
    Front Matter
    Title Pages
    Editor’s Acknowledgments
    List of Illustrations
    List of Abbreviations
    List of Contributors
    Copyright Notices
    Transliteration Conventions
    Leaders of Arab Dynasties and the Kingdom of Ḥimyar


    Editor’s Introduction
    Greg Fisher
    1 Arabs and Empires before the Sixth Century
    Michael C. A. Macdonald, with contributions from Aldo Corcella, Touraj Daryaee, Greg Fisher, Matt Gibbs, Ariel Lewin, Donata Violante, and Conor Whately

    2 Before Ḥimyar
    Christian Julien Robin

    3 Ḥimyar, Aksūm, and Arabia Deserta in Late Antiquity
    Christian Julien Robin

    4 The Archaeological Evidence for the Jafnids and the Naṣrids
    Denis Genequand

    5 Arabs in the Conflict between Rome and Persia, AD 491–630
    Peter Edwell, with contributions from Greg Fisher, Geoffrey Greatrex, Conor Whately, and Philip Wood

    6 Arabs and Christianity
    Greg Fisher and Philip Wood, with contributions from George Bevan, Geoffrey Greatrex, Basema Hamarneh, Peter Schadler, and Walter Ward

    7 Provincia Arabia: Nabataea, the Emergence of Arabic as a Written Language, and Graeco-Arabica
    Zbigniew T. Fiema, Ahmad Al-Jallad, Michael C. A. Macdonald, and Laïla Nehmé

    8 Arabic and Persian Sources for Pre-Islamic Arabia
    Harry Munt, with contributions from Touraj Daryaee, Omar Edaibat, Robert Hoyland, and Isabel Toral-Niehoff

    Quote
    End Matter
    Epigraphic and Papyrological Sigla
    Bibliography
    Index of Sources
    General Index
    Plates



    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5410 - February 19, 2019, 12:18 PM

    This Bernard Lewis Book which is older than that "Arab Empires Before Islam


    is equally Important on that subject In fact this was published 15 or so years before that Some Info On that  Bernard Lewis Book

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5411 - February 19, 2019, 12:23 PM

    Yeez,

    1/C14 shows that the Quran is a very early document. Probably  latest realistic date for the earliest extant copies is around 630.

    2/We know from archeology that the Arab take over was rather friendly. No major destruction found in Palestine, Negev.

    3/We know that these Arabs knew how to administrate big population centres. We see the towns they took over continue to prosper. That cannot be the work of some barbarians coming out of the desert.

    4/We know the Arabs had a distinctive religion from the start of their conquest (early mosques show that).

    5/We know that the script/language of the Quran is related to the ex-Nabataean empire.

    6/We know from papyri found in Egypt that this script and language was used by the conquerors as far as Egypt already in the year 644.

    Above is why I am looking (for the moment, until someone convinces me to look elsewhere) to Arabia Petraea or its fringes as the locus of the Quran.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5412 - February 19, 2019, 12:29 PM

    dear mundi let me read this paper first

      The Translation Movement in the Arab World  : From the  Pre-Islamic Era Until the end of Umayyad Dynasty (Before  610-750 A. D.)  International Journal of Language and Linguistics
    2015; 3(3): 122-131
     
    Quote
    by  D. Hussein Abdo Rababah
    Al-Imam Muhammad Ibn Saud Islamic University,
    College of languages and Translation, Riyadh, KSA


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5413 - February 19, 2019, 12:43 PM

    Yeez,

    1/C14 shows that the Quran is a very early document.
    Probably  latest realistic date for the earliest extant copies is around 630.

    2/We know from archeology that the Arab take over was rather friendly. No major destruction found in Palestine, Negev.

    3/We know that these Arabs knew how to administrate big population centres. We see the towns they took over continue to prosper. That cannot be the work of some barbarians coming out of the desert.

    4/We know the Arabs had a distinctive religion from the start of their conquest (early mosques show that).

    5/We know that the script/language of the Quran is related to the ex-Nabataean empire.

    6/We know from papyri found in Egypt
    that this script and language was used by the conquerors as far as Egypt already in the year 644.

    Above is why I am looking (for the moment, until someone convinces me to look elsewhere) to Arabia Petraea or its fringes as the locus of the Quran.

    which Quran  and what papyri  ??..  WHAT IS WRITTEN IN THEM??  all 114 chapters   6300  verses or so?

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5414 - February 19, 2019, 12:50 PM

    Yeez,

    Yhe Islamic awareness site has all the info. Even if Quran was not complete or the reading was not fixed, that is irrelevant for the question we are asking "where did the Quran originate""
    1/ C14  https://www.islamic-awareness.org/quran/text/mss/radio.html
    2/ Egyptian bilingual papyrus (558): https://www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/papyri/perf558
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5415 - February 19, 2019, 12:58 PM

    Yeez,

    1/C14 shows that the Quran is a very early document. Probably  latest realistic date for the earliest extant copies is around 630.


    And possibly earlier (C14)
    Quote
    2/We know from archeology that the Arab take over was rather friendly. No major destruction found in Palestine, Negev.

    It was not their interest.

    Quote
    3/We know that these Arabs knew how to administrate big population centres. We see the towns they took over continue to prosper. That cannot be the work of some barbarians coming out of the desert.


    Of course. Plus the Mecca/Medina/Kaba have no concrete existence before Islam. Therefore they do not come from here
    Quote
    4/We know the Arabs had a distinctive religion from the start of their conquest (early mosques show that).


    Nope. One knows that the leaders have some religious ideas different of the institutionalized monotheisms. Not a "religion" estalished.
    Quote
    5/We know that the script/language of the Quran is related to the ex-Nabataean empire.

    Linguistically nope, see van Putten and Jallad.

    Quote
    6/We know from papyri found in Egypt that this script and language was used by the conquerors as far as Egypt already in the year 644.


    The north Arabic script well known in the 6th c. :  512 : https://www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/inscriptions/zebed.html
    568 : https://www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/inscriptions/harran.html

    Quote
    Above is why I am looking (for the moment, until someone convinces me to look elsewhere) to Arabia Petraea or its fringes as the locus of the Quran.


    You're wrong: linguistically nope, see van Putten and Jallad.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5416 - February 19, 2019, 01:05 PM

    Arabs and Empires before the  sixth century  pdf file  by Michael C. A. Macdonald,  from  Greg Fisher edited book

    The origin of Arabs:  Middle Eastern ethnicity  and myth-making. pdf file  Peter WEbb

    Arabs in history. pdf file  .. Bernard Lewis book

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5417 - February 19, 2019, 01:09 PM

    Yeez,

    Yhe Islamic awareness site has all the info. Even if Quran was not complete or the reading was not fixed, that is irrelevant for the question we are asking "where did the Quran originate""
    1/ C14  https://www.islamic-awareness.org/quran/text/mss/radio.html
    2/ Egyptian bilingual papyrus (558): https://www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/papyri/perf558

    oh i see  "Even if Quran was not complete or the reading was not fixed, "

    well   if it was not fixed and  IF WE ARE TALKING ABOUT  present book with all 114 jumbled up surahs with some 6000  verses.,    then  the answer to that question   "where did the Quran originate"" appears to be simple  ..

    we can go chapter by chapter dear mundi...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5418 - February 19, 2019, 01:29 PM

    Altara,

    Quote
    Quote
    4/We know the Arabs had a distinctive religion from the start of their conquest (early mosques show that).


    Nope. One knows that the leaders have some religious ideas different of the institutionalized monotheisms. Not a "religion" established.


    The multitude of early mosques (see Ayla, Jerash, Qastal,Palmyra, in the Negev) found by archeology shows that the "conquerors"or new administrators did not share the local church but built their own places of worship with distinct features. This info can be checked in Dan Gibsons data base. As I said before, for me, this data base of early mosques, is about the most important element of his research.

    On language.:

    The official position of Van Putten and Al Jallad is that the Quran originated in Mecca and Medina. They see a lot of common features found within the ex Nabatean realm but the match is not perfect. So they say, it must be another place, and what is more logical than the Hijaz. Both are wonderful scholars and very communicative. But I feel they have not been able to close the loop and prove it was center Hijaz. Absence of evidence is not proof. I think Al Jallad already admitted that the fringes of Nabatean realm would be a possibility. Let's see how it evolves.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5419 - February 19, 2019, 02:29 PM

    Quote
    The multitude of early mosques (see Ayla, Jerash, Qastal,Palmyra, in the Negev) found by archeology shows that the "conquerors"or new administrators did not share the local church but built their own places of worship with distinct features.


    One knows that the leaders have some religious ideas different of the institutionalized monotheisms and carry out their ideas in concrete building; that is the discussion with Marc.

    Quote
    The official position of Van Putten and Al Jallad is that the Quran originated in Mecca and Medina.


    Van Putten cannot not know that Mecca/Medina/Kaba  may not exists before Islam, he knows very well the doubts raised by numerous scholars about that but he refuses to envisage his work in putting aside the narratives that locate to the "Hijaz" the Quranic language. Things that he should do as for now he is totally incapable to pinpoint Quranic Arabic. As he is not an historian, he is not able to evaluate that there is a big issue there ; he has faith in the narratives as being "historical" whereas they are not. He "supposes" that the narratives know better than him and that he has to trust them whereas numerous scholars knows that these narratives attest that the Muslim were totally lost, especially about the Quranic Arabic.  One can see here that linguistic in the pinpointing of the Quranic Arabis is useless from the moment where your work is as premise, already stuck to a paradigm  from which you cannot go out. He is incapable to imagine that the narratives are inexact. Because he has faith in these narratives .It prevents him to imagine other things to account for Quranic Arabic. He is totally prisoner of this belief.

    Quote
    They see a lot of common features found within the ex Nabatean realm but the match is not perfect.


    There is no (to my knowledge, that have to be checked) inscription in Petra in the 512/568 North Arabic script already given here. Not a piece.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5420 - February 19, 2019, 03:01 PM

    Altara,

    You always talk "Petra". That is too narrow. You have to see the bigger region.

    Quote
    There is no (to my knowledge, that have to be checked) inscription in Petra in the 512/568 North Arabic script already given here. Not a piece.


    I did link the Jallad paper about the Petra papyri. At least that area seems to have had a lot of Arabic speakers. From there the questions I posed no one thought interesting enough to comment on.

    There are hardly any Arabic script pre-islamic inscriptions ANYWHERE in that time period. But we know the script must have been kept alive somewhere. Maybe some undated inscriptions (we had the discussion about Nevo's finds in the Negev) are pre-islamic, who knows.

    So the lack of 6th C inscriptions as counter argument goes for the whole plausibel region. But unlike all the other regions, Arabia Petraea has the other advantages that have been summed up.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5421 - February 19, 2019, 03:07 PM

    Quote
    Altara :  One knows that the leaders have some religious ideas different of the institutionalized monotheisms and carry out their ideas in concrete building; that is the discussion with Marc.


    that is a great word  "institutionalized monotheism/s"

    Altara ..   is there any reason to use monotheisms  a plural word instead of just  monotheism?

    or you think there were many monotheisms with different gods?

     Anyway  institutionalized monotheism vs personal  monotheism is a grate subject  for 21st century   faith heads as well as  for those who explore monotheistic  faith as personal faith...such a Agnostics..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5422 - February 19, 2019, 03:25 PM

    Altara and Yeez,

    Institutionalised monotheism:

    Very little evidence on what that looked like but I doubt the Quran played much of a role. At one time the book was created, my guess is that some decades after some "illuminati" got together and started a kind of sect with alternative gatherings and practices from Christianity. By the 630's, we see that this new sect is already entrenched enough in the minds of the new administrators to start building mosques (NOT using a confiscated church), burying their dead differently from the Christian tradition and probably starting already their own calendar. That is not done in a whim, there is a process preceding that.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5423 - February 19, 2019, 04:28 PM

    Altara,

    You always talk "Petra". That is too narrow. You have to see the bigger region.


    Nor Petra, Bostra, Hegra, etc., attest this story

    Quote
    I did link the Jallad paper about the Petra papyri. At least that area seems to have had a lot of Arabic speakers. From there the questions I posed no one thought interesting enough to comment on.


    Arabic speaker who do not write in the 512/568  North Arabic script. (have to be checked for Petra and the rest.)

    Quote
    There are hardly any Arabic script pre-islamic inscriptions ANYWHERE in that time period.


    You're wrong : The north Arabic script which will be used in the Quran is  well known in the 6th c. :  512 : https://www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/inscriptions/zebed.html
    568 : https://www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/inscriptions/harran.html


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5424 - February 19, 2019, 04:30 PM

    Quote
    Altara and Yeez,

    Institutionalised monotheism:

    Very little evidence on what that looked like but I doubt the Quran played much of a role. At one time the book was created, my guess is that some decades after some "illuminati" got together and started a kind of sect with alternative gatherings and practices from Christianity. ...........

    you  are right mundi.,   in fact Quran or any other faith book .. for that matter any governing Ideologies such as Caliphate, communism,  democracy  or in olden days  these kingdom  ideologies .... they as such will do very little to   Institutionalization  of nations or cultures ...

    Institutionalization  of anything is all to do with  politics and governing power structures..  one can Institutionalize any faith......

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5425 - February 19, 2019, 04:36 PM

    that is a great word  "institutionalized monotheism/s"

    Altara ..   is there any reason to use monotheisms  a plural word instead of just  monotheism?


    Yes, Christianity is not Judaism and Zoroastrianism...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5426 - February 19, 2019, 04:52 PM

    Altara - Do you think early Islam was a messianic movement?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5427 - February 19, 2019, 04:53 PM

    Nope.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5428 - February 19, 2019, 04:56 PM

    Some form of Christian movement?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5429 - February 19, 2019, 04:56 PM

    In a broad sense.
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