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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5340 - February 16, 2019, 02:39 PM

    Quote
    Altara says :  ............   muhajirun is a Quranic neologism interpreted by later Muslim 9th narratives in the frame Mecca/Medina/Kaba. I have, of course, an understanding of it,  (that I won't detail here) grounded in sources and etymology of the therm, which is easily findable. It is of course out of the frame described 200 years later by the Muslim narrative. A discourse, just after it emerges, is understandable because of the conditions which have presided its emergence, these condition are logically in the past.

     
    By saying that you are saying  "The Quran.,   the present book is in fact constructed in 9th century by 9th century Muslim scholars/rulers"  ...  did I get that right??

    and on this
    Quote
    What you are now is not because of your future (hahaha!). But because of your past.

    well Altara on those words I am a muhajirin and I do   follow a Prophet  which is NOT a biological species   but a simple rule that guides me in this life   Cheesy

    So on those words of yours I say

    I am no more sure that
    what I am now is because of my Past ..
    and I do not live for past nor i live for future
    but I learned to live for present
    and a simple Golden Rule drives my life
    "

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5341 - February 16, 2019, 03:18 PM

    Quote
    By saying that you are saying  "The Quran.,   the present book is in fact constructed in 9th century by 9th century Muslim scholars/rulers"  ...  did I get that right??


    Nope. I'm saying that muhajirun  is understood by "Islam" as meaning what told about it the later Muslim 9th narratives which locate the origin of the Quran in the frame Mecca/Medina/Kaba. For them therefore  "Islam" as well because "Islam" and those who adhere to it as "Muslim" is believing what says  the Muslim 9th narratives muhajirun, then for them,  means those "who have made hijra" with the prophet Muhammad.

    Quote
    I am no more sure that what I am now is because of my Past ..


    I'm pretty sure of it. In any case, it is not because of your Future. Thus, the Quran is not be understood by the 9th Muslim narratives, but by the time before its emergence.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5342 - February 16, 2019, 04:57 PM

    memorizing the Quran:

    Has anyone checked here if thousands (or 1 perrson in your environment) can recite the Quran perfectly (or almost)? I mean not to get sentences jumbled up, words changed, surahs out of order...

    Hitting kids to improve their memeory: Muslim kids must be different from western ones bc that method doesnt work with the western ones...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5343 - February 16, 2019, 05:06 PM

    Yes. I know more than one.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5344 - February 16, 2019, 05:08 PM

    Most impressive are children from Shinqit, Mauritania.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5345 - February 16, 2019, 05:21 PM

    Mahgraye,

    You checked?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5346 - February 16, 2019, 05:24 PM

    Checked?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5347 - February 16, 2019, 05:32 PM

    Listened to a live performance with Quran in hand to check for mistakes.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5348 - February 16, 2019, 05:35 PM

    Yes. And when the reciter does make a mistake--usually a minor one--there are always people in the back who corrects the mistake.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5349 - February 17, 2019, 01:10 PM

    Hmm.. what is happening here.,  this is one of those folder that has  " EVERYTHING ABOUT ISLAM AND IT HAS NOTHING ABOUT ISLAM "

    diverse  subjects are initiated/ discussed and thrown down the dungeon never to read again   Cheesy 

    anyways So.. Mahgraye  talks about Islam of  Mauritania.
    Most impressive are children from Shinqit, Mauritania.  

    Hi  Mahgraye  do you have any good reason for that., Why Children of that region "Shinqit, Mauritania"  memorize  Quran   but the Mullahs  do not use the brain to understand Quran?   It is such a huge country with small population .. Colonial France coupled to Saud  Wahhabi  Islam never allowed anything but Slave mentality..

    Sorry to say that but that is life ., Islamic Republic of Mauritania with just  some 4 million people and over 25% ~ 1.2 million living in its Capital indeed has ITS OWN Islamic story to tell this world..


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbytHpq_RCQ 


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yQlOPD8mNo

    Question is what did Islam do and what did Islamic preachers do there?? It is OK to sing songs/sonnets and poems but if we do not use brain to analyze what we are reading  Memorizing Quran is no use...

    Quote
    .........Another Saudi state-run missionary project that made substantial inroads in Mauritania is the Islamic University of Medina (IUM), established in 1961 to provide fully-funded religious training in Medina to non-Saudi students in the hope that they would then promote Salafi norms in their countries of origin and elsewhere. By the early 2000s, nearly 400 IUM scholarships had been offered to young Mauritanian men and nearly 200 had graduated with university-level qualifications. These numbers are far higher, relative to the size of Mauritania’s population, than the equivalent figures for other major Muslim-majority societies like Indonesia or Egypt....


    and that is the reason  small group of children from that region of  Islamic Republic of Mauritania  memorize Quran ....

     with bets wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5350 - February 17, 2019, 01:20 PM

    Quote
    well Altara I must re-read   re-frame my response on these highlighted words of your important statements
    muhajirun is a Quranic neologism interpreted by later Muslim 9th narratives in the frame Mecca/Medina/Kaba. I have, of course, an understanding of it,  (that I won't detail here) grounded in sources and etymology of the therm, which is easily findable. It is of course out of the frame described 200 years later by the Muslim narrative.....................................


    Nope. I'm saying that muhajirun  is understood by "Islam" as meaning what told about it the later Muslim 9th narratives which locate the origin of the Quran in the frame Mecca/Medina/Kaba. For them therefore  "Islam" as well because "Islam" and those who adhere to it as "Muslim" is believing what says  the Muslim 9th narratives muhajirun, then for them,  means those "who have made hijra" with the prophet Muhammad.

    ............



    the reason I was saying   is Quran uses  that word " muhajirun " in more number of verses than it tells anything about "Muhammad" classical prophet of Islam..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5351 - February 17, 2019, 01:50 PM

    Quote
    the reason I was saying   is Quran uses  that word " muhajirun " in more number of verses than it tells anything about "Muhammad" classical prophet of Islam..


    Of course. The explication is that the word " muhajirun " has nothing to see with the meaning given by the 9th narratives, namely, "those "who have made hijra" with the prophet Muhammad."
    Simply because there is no "prophet Muhammad", no Mecca, no Kaba, But, with this frame in mind as the 9th Muslims polygraphs had, " muhajirun "can be more or less easily, in some passages, mean "those "who have made hijra" with the prophet Muhammad."
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5352 - February 17, 2019, 02:04 PM

    Quote
    Of course. The explication is that the word " muhajirun " has nothing to see with the meaning given by the 9th narratives, namely, "those "who have made hijra" with the prophet Muhammad."

    You are making me to ask more questions dear Altara  ..lol  So  do you agree that word was there before Islam?  if it was then what was its meaning and its root word?

    I GUESS YOU DO NOT WANT TO ANSWER THAT QUESTION OPENLY IN THIS FORUM    Cheesy Cheesy

    Quote
    Simply because there is no "prophet Muhammad", no Mecca, no Kaba, But, with this frame in mind as the 9th Muslims polygraphs had, " muhajirun "can be more or less easily, in some passages, mean "those "who have made hijra" with the prophet Muhammad."

    On that The Hegira .....Hijra..... هِجْرَة‎,   whatever.. It  is allegedly supposed to be  migration  of  the Islamic prophet   and his followers from Mecca to Yathrib,/Medina,...... and  that time falls   in the middle of Quran revelation  in other Quran was NOT completed..

    Where as the  other word " muhajirun " hasalready bumped in to Quran verses ..   SO-CALLED CLASSICAL MECCAN REVELATION... and that made me to think this word "" muhajirun "  is older than Quran and older than that  Hijra migration..

    On the other hand whole thing being a story  of Islam of in and around 9th century  .. one can reject it outrightly  as REAL HISTORY OF ISLAM   except to tell stories and sing songs

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5353 - February 17, 2019, 04:14 PM

    Quote
    You are making me to ask more questions dear Altara  ..lol 


    Hahaha!

    Quote
    So  do you agree that word was there before Islam?  if it was then what was its meaning and its root word?


    1/ Nope, in Arabic, the word is invented by the author(s) of the Quran.

    Quote
    I GUESS YOU DO NOT WANT TO ANSWER THAT QUESTION OPENLY IN THIS FORUM   

     

    As there are many academics who read this topic, and as I write (myself)  about this topic, I do not want that my ideas to be stolen. What I just say here is that the 9th narratives meaning is not the one of the author(s) of the Quran.

    Quote
    and that made me to think this word "" muhajirun "  is older than Quran and older than that  Hijra migration..


    What is a "word"?

    Quote
    On the other hand whole thing being a story  of Islam of in and around 9th century  .. one can reject it outrightly  as REAL HISTORY OF ISLAM   except to tell stories and sing songs


    Haha!
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5354 - February 17, 2019, 05:21 PM

    Quote
    Hi  Mahgraye  do you have any good reason for that.


    I am was referring to their memory, which is very impressive. They do study from a very young age as they are still children. They write down the Quran and memorize. Practice I guess.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5355 - February 17, 2019, 06:07 PM

    Quote
    I am was referring to their memory, which is very impressive. They do study from a very young age as they are still children. They write down the Quran and memorize. Practice I guess.


    yes..yes..  indeed memory power/memorizing abilities   of human beings  is  very very impressive ., And you are right.,   It is not just those kids from   Islamic Republic of Mauritania  I am pretty certain that  any kid from any culture  from  any where on earth will have same/similar  abilities  in memorizing large amount of data  and regurgitating back   given proper facilities and training ..

    And we must realize here that everything that is advanced on earth after biology started some 4 billion year ago ,.,  that .. that credit must go to brain and its memory power  a  biological species.,   And..and  there is little doubt  that at the end of this century or beginning of next century,   interfacing  internet with human brain through Artificial intelligence methods will make present brain power we have  obsolete .. [/u]

    well  let me watch Chris Hadfield  that Canadian Astronut



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6rHHnABoT8


    Ha!  aging is one field that needs constant input    Cheesy

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5356 - February 17, 2019, 06:41 PM

    ...........As there are many academics who read this topic, and as I write (myself)  about this topic, I do not want that my ideas to be stolen. What I just say here is that the 9th narratives meaning is not the one of the author(s) of the Quran......!

      i understand .. Hope to read your publication in near future..

    Quote
    1/ Nope, in Arabic, the word is invented by the author(s) of the Quran.


    well  that is possible...  anyways let me add a publication link on some these words in Quran

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5357 - February 17, 2019, 08:56 PM

    Yes there are recent (and old) papers about this topic. All read the word from the 9th frame : Mecca/Medina/Kaba/Zem Zem... (yawn...)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5358 - February 18, 2019, 08:32 AM

    Yeez,

    You posted the link to Lindstedt's article that is as expected, not controversial or new. Of course for a radical interesting view on the subject there is Kerr's article:

    https://www.academia.edu/2629114/Islam_Arabs_and_the_Hijra

    Amazing that young Lindstedt doesn't even bother to mention this article in his.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5359 - February 18, 2019, 08:48 AM

    Al Jallad on the Arabic toponyms (written in Greek) from the 6th C Petra papyri:

    Quote


    Almost all place names seem to be Arabic. Some questions:

    1/ I wonder how Quranic the Petra Arabic was? How much of the vocabulary can be found in the Quran?
    2/ Was the (Greek writing) scribe also Arab and Arabic speaker? Could people like that have written in their spare time after working hours texts in Arabic as local folklorists?
    3/ Where did administration scribes get their education? In the monastery? In special administrator schools?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5360 - February 18, 2019, 09:38 AM

    Yes there are recent (and old) papers about this topic. All read the word from the 9th frame : Mecca/Medina/Kaba/Zem Zem... (yawn...)


    Would you agree or disagree on Crone's understanding of this word ?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5361 - February 18, 2019, 09:41 AM

    Thanks. The problem is that I have always read the Quran in Arabic and continue to do so. Can't be done in another way. I do, however, consult translations. Very useful.


    When you read it in arabic, do you try to get the meaning of what you read in the islamic frame set by ulemas and other tafseer writers or do you try & search yourself for what it might mean ? I am asking because debating with muslims, some of them end up telling you that one has never read the Quran if it is not dne in arabic but I always found this odd coming from people not speaking 7th century arabic and in fact following tafseer translation.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5362 - February 18, 2019, 12:17 PM

    Would you agree or disagree on Crone's understanding of this word ?


    I still do not know the Crone's understanding of this word.

    It is quite ironic to see the supposed goddess of "revisionism" (designed as such by the field) to come back to the "Prophet"/Mecca/Medina/Kaba frame in "THE FIRST-CENTURY CONCEPT OF HIGRA"  and not succeeding  to build something about HIGRA from what she has written in Hagarism/Meccan trade.  Fact which (to me...) validates the Jerome Parker paper  about  "the supposed goddess of "revisionism"" who in Hagarism did only conjectures and hypotheses that she considered as an exercise and nothing else. The first evidence of this is that she was totally capable to abandon her Hagarism/ Meccan trade frame (which is to put aside the 9th narratives), to use the frame Mecca/Medina/Kaba/Muhammad  to address  the "CONCEPT OF HIGRA";
    "Quraysh and the Roman army: Making sense of the Meccan leather trade" and  for her  numerous studies of the Quran.  Moreover, she says it clearly for the "CONCEPT OF HIGRA": "The Quran is generally assumed to be a faithful record of Muhammad's utterances, indeed the only reliable record that we possess. Wansbrough has cast doubt on this assumption, with considerable justification in my opinion , but his theory is not sufficiently concrete to be usable in the present context. Since the Quranic evidence cannot simply be left aside, and since further the scholars who have worked on higra subscribe to the conventional view of the provenance and transmission history of the Quran, I shall meet them halfway by adopting it myself for purposes of the present argument."
    Thus, she is capable to use the frame  "Prophet"/Mecca/Medina/Kaba that she abandoned for Hagarism/Meccan trade to address the topic. She's not considering (at all) that Hagarism/Meccan trade frame was something on which she could built something because it was just an exercise an nothing else. Meaning that she has never considered that Hagarism/Meccan trade frame could be fruitful to explain the emergence of the Quranic corpus. Moreover she never tried to explain it.
    It does not prevent her to note for example that "The Quran does not actually use the term higra, but it pays considerable attention to emigrants (man yuhagiru, al-muhagirun), of whom it strongly approves." and that it does not alerts her in anyway (haha!) It does not surprises me because she was as lost about the Quranic corpus as the others ; suffice to read all her Quran studies. She's lost,  it's pathetic.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5363 - February 18, 2019, 12:25 PM

    Altara,

    Agree on Crone. Her article on higra was an eyeopener. A debutant amateur could see through the ahistorical character of it. I thought she might have written it to make amends for something, maybe she was under duress to write it? Is that possible?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5364 - February 18, 2019, 12:46 PM

    Quote
    The Quran is generally assumed to be a faithful record of Muhammad's utterances, indeed the only reliable record that we possess. Wansbrough has cast doubt on this assumption, with considerable justification in my opinion , but his theory is not sufficiently concrete to be usable in the present context. Since the Quranic evidence cannot simply be left aside, and since further the scholars who have worked on higra subscribe to the conventional view of the provenance and transmission history of the Quran, I shall meet them halfway by adopting it myself for purposes of the present argument.


    What about this remark from Crone?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5365 - February 18, 2019, 12:51 PM

    Quote
    Agree on Crone. Her article on higra was an eyeopener. A debutant amateur could see through the ahistorical character of it. I thought she might have written it to make amends for something, maybe she was under duress to write it? Is that possible?


    What are you talking about? Why would she have written this article under any duress? What is so significant about it?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5366 - February 18, 2019, 01:08 PM

    Crone and hgr:

    For clarity we are talking about this article: https://www.jstor.org/stable/4057424?read-now=1&refreqid=excelsior%3Aed8d2c492a90446e6c6f9839ab97c42d&seq=16#page_scan_tab_contents

    Crone just doesnt differentiate between early and late sources. And if she does here or there, she doesnt make an important point outof it. Everything is mixed up and she does not question once that the stem hgr in the Quran might have had another meaning at the time it was written.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5367 - February 18, 2019, 01:15 PM

    Altara,

    Agree on Crone. Her article on higra was an eyeopener. A debutant amateur could see through the ahistorical character of it. I thought she might have written it to make amends for something, maybe she was under duress to write it? Is that possible?

    The fact that  all the field has considered Hagarism  as a contestation of the dogma Prophet"/Mecca/Medina/Kaba whereas it was just an exercise, has designed her as  goddess of "revisionism" especially because additionally being and ancient student of Wansbrough all the field believed that she was like him. She  was obliged to run away from England and was welcomed in Princeton. In Princeton where she has written Meccan trade continuing the contestation of Prophet"/Mecca/Medina/Kaba. After, it is what I describe, she come back to the Prophet"/Mecca/Medina/Kaba frame because maybe 1/she considered that Hagarism/Meccan trade frame could not be fruitful to explain the emergence of the Quranic corpus. 2/Considered or maybe she was not able to do it from the Hagarism/Meccan trade frame , because she had no clues about it. My opinion is that I think that she was not able to do it and it is seen in her numerous Quranic studies where she is totally lost about the Quran.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5368 - February 18, 2019, 01:23 PM

    On  Crone:

    Just don't get that a great mind like Crone at some point says things like: there is little doubt the prophet uttered the words in the Quran (parafrazing.

    As a believer, I understand that one believes that (God is almighty and can get all kinds of things done), but as a historian, I think the average one would need electro shocks to come to believe that.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5369 - February 18, 2019, 01:24 PM

    So what if she believed that some parts of the Quran were Muhammad's own words?
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