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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4920 - October 17, 2018, 11:45 AM
    Opinion, not belief. Ad hominem and conspiracy theories.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4921 - October 17, 2018, 11:47 AM
    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/Safaitic/status/1051726481850798081
    Quote
    <Part 2 – Wadd, of Tweet Mini-Series: The archaeology of the Book of Idols> “The Kalb (tribe) adopted Wadd as their god at Dūmat al-Jandal” reported Ibn Al-Kalbī. But according to the Qur’an (71:23), Wadd was one of the gods of old, worshiped before Noah’s flood. What is Wadd?

    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4922 - October 17, 2018, 11:50 AM
    Edmund Hayes - When is an Arab not an Arab?

    https://www.leiden-islamblog.nl/articles/when-is-an-arab-not-an-arab
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4923 - October 17, 2018, 01:22 PM
    Quote
    As I'm not reading German, I do not know what say exactly Kerr about  Q 71,23. But (to me..) I know why the authors are using contemporary Arab gods in the time of Noah (lol!!!) There is an excellent purpose to all of this.


    How could the authors know about gods of the time of Noah? These 5 gods are not mentioned in Bible. He says these god names were just known (not believed in) in the Syro-mesopotamian area (also names of celestial bodies?) and has arguments from Babylonian Talmut, doctrina Addai.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4924 - October 17, 2018, 02:03 PM
    Quote
    How could the authors know about gods of the time of Noah?


    They could not.
    Quote
    He says these god names were just known (not believed in) in the Mesopotamian area

     
    Ok.
    Quote
    and has arguments from Babylonian Talmut, doctrina Addai.


    Of course. Nothing new in the Quran.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4925 - October 17, 2018, 03:24 PM
    Mehdy Shaddel - ‘The Year according to the Reckoning of the Believers’: Papyrus Louvre inv. J. David-Weill 20 and the Origins of the hijrī Era (forthcoming in Der Islam 2018).

    https://www.academia.edu/31246167/_The_Year_according_to_the_Reckoning_of_the_Believers_Papyrus_Louvre_inv._J._David-Weill_20_and_the_Origins_of_the_hijr%C4%AB_Era_forthcoming_in_Der_Islam_2018_
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4926 - October 17, 2018, 04:38 PM
    Shadel seems to be on a crusade against R. Kerr. He devotes more than 6 pages refuting Kerr's position( that the Arab calendar is not the emigration day) in a very emotional way .

    After his very unconvincing "proto-Hamza" article, with one of the main goals being to serve as proof for the authenticity of the Zuhayr inscription, he devotes more energy to attack Kerr.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4927 - October 17, 2018, 05:24 PM
    Cited by Shaddel p.303.

    in 930 of Alexander, Heraclius and the Romans entered Constantinople, and Muḥammad and the ṭayyāyē went forth from the south and entered the land and subdued it. Then the years of the Muslims (mhaggrāyē) and the time when they entered Syria and took power, from the year 933 of Alexander, each of them by name, are as follows: Muḥammad, 10 years; Abū Bakr, one year; ʿUmar, 12 years; ʿUthmān, 12 years.

    It is the Muslim narrative heard  from Muslims, adapted in non Muslim calendar (Alexandrian one) . It proves only that the narrative were spreading and nothing else and was taking for granted about the Muslim story.
    Quote
    the Chronicon ad annum 775 hastens to produce a second report which gives the correct date for the event.


    Of course , the "hijra" date is fixed in 775 but was not so clear before, whereas he should have been. Logically.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4928 - October 17, 2018, 05:30 PM
    Quote from: mundi on October 17, 2018, 04:38 PM
    Shadel seems to be on a crusade against R. Kerr. He devotes more than 6 pages refuting Kerr's position( that the Arab calendar is not the emigration day) in a very emotional way .


    Yes. That this paper be published like this surprised me.

    Quote
    After his very unconvincing "proto-Hamza" article, with one of the main goals being to serve as proof for the authenticity of the Zuhayr inscription, he devotes more energy to attack Kerr.


    At that time, Kerr did not know that HGR with the meaning of  movement/traveling  --much more than "emigration", camels does not "emigrate" (yawn) -- have been found by Jallad.
    The link is clear with Hagar who have moved/travelled, etc. But she was not a she-camel...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4929 - October 17, 2018, 05:34 PM
    Quote
    At that time, Kerr did not know that HGR with the meaning of  movement/traveling  --much more than "emigration", camels does not "emigrate" (yawn) -- have been found by Jallad.


    What was found by Jallad? Explain Altara, or is this sarcasm?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4930 - October 17, 2018, 06:18 PM
    https://www.academia.edu/24801722/Al-Jallad._2016._An_ancient_Arabian_zodiac._The_constellations_in_the_Safaitic_inscriptions_Part_II
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4931 - October 17, 2018, 06:20 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on October 17, 2018, 03:24 PM
    .......  “The Year According to the Reckoning of the Believers”: Papyrus Louvre inv. J. David-Weill 20 and the Origins of the hijrī   Era  by  Mehdy Shaddel.,  Der Islam 2018; 95 (2): 291–311

    on  page 306  of that link Mehdy Shaddel writes

    Quote
    ...The first reference, albeit very tangential, to the hijra as the starting point of Muslim chronology also comes from a brief Syriac chron-icle composed upon the death of the Umayyad caliph Yazīd II ibn ʿAbd al-Ma-lik (105 AH/724 CE). This chronicle, which evidently draws on a Muslim source, introduces itself as
    Quote
    ...a notice of the life of Muḥammad, the messenger (r[asūl]ā) of God, after he had entered his city and before he entered it three months, from his first year; and how long each king who subsequently arose over the Muslims (mhaggrāyē ) lived once they had come to power ..


    This chronicle equally treats Muḥammad as a “king”, but appears to associate the beginning of his reign with his emigration to “his city” – Medina, known in Arabic as madīnat al-nabī , or the “Prophet’s City”......

    thank you for that link dear Mahgraye.,  well I casually read through that publication.,    So that chronicle  which is in italics above .. Mehdy Shaddel  and even others takes that and concludes  
    Quote
    This chronicle equally treats Muḥammad as a “king”, but appears to associate the beginning of his reign with his emigration to “his city” – Medina

     and I say that is NOT necessary and it is pure assumption and it has no hint of "Muhammad " The Alleged Prophet of Islam  and his migration to the present Saudi Arabia city "Madina" in it..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4932 - October 17, 2018, 06:48 PM
    The entire year, mlḥ, ḏkr, ʾmt
    ASWS 73
    l rbʾl bn ḥnn bn ẓʿn bn ẖyḏ bn ʿḏr w wrd ḥḏr f mlḥ f ḏkr
    f ʾmt f ʾmt w ngʿ ʿl- ḥbb w ʿl- h-ʾbl rʿy -h hgr m mdbr
    s¹nt myt bnt
    By Rbʾl son of Ḥnn son of Ẓʿn son of H̲ yḏ son of ʿḏr
    and he went to water cautious of drought, then (again) in
    Aquarius, then Aries, then Libra, and then Libra (again,
    i.e. for two years in a row), during which he grieved in
    pain for a loved one and for the camels, which he pastured,
    having migrated from the inner desert, the year Bnt
    died.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4933 - October 17, 2018, 07:36 PM
    Little did I know that Kerr also adheres to the Nazorean hypothesis, or so it seems.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4934 - October 17, 2018, 09:11 PM
    List of some Quran manuscripts:

    https://ia601504.us.archive.org/24/items/almaktutat_gmail_20181017/%D8%B1%D9%88%D8%A7%D8%A8%D8%B7%20%D9%84%D9%85%D8%AE%D8%B7%D9%88%D8%B7%D8%A7%D8%AA%20%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D8%B5%D8%A7%D8%AD%D9%81%20%D9%81%D9%8A%20%D9%85%D9%83%D8%AA%D8%A8%D8%AA%D9%8A%20%D8%A8%D8%B1%D9%84%D9%8A%D9%86%20%D9%88%D8%A8%D8%A7%D8%B1%D9%8A%D8%B3%20%D9%88%D8%BA%D9%8A%D8%B1%D9%87%D9%85%D8%A7.pdf?fbclid=IwAR3zfVdSBhU9azshPzenata8z4E6a-M0LsEzhbG1VQeXO4_D8vOlmAyI3wE
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4935 - October 17, 2018, 09:25 PM
    Another folio of the famous Sanaa palimpsest (DAM 01-27.1) has recently been found:

    https://twitter.com/shakerr_ahmed/status/1052560173942939651?fbclid=IwAR0GeJCnDA27Z4xxfPLVCUF8SozAZFgYoKtlv1I8Hg5W0xx8PMKePFxv8PI

    And here is a blog post on the recent finding:

    https://quranmss.com/2018/10/17/louvre_sanaa/
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4936 - October 17, 2018, 10:31 PM
    It have to be ultravioletted Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4937 - October 17, 2018, 10:42 PM
    Quote
    It have to be ultravioletted.


    Yeah. Goudarzi is trying to get a hold of the folio. I personally don't think it will reveal anything new. The variants will probably conform to those found in the rest of folios.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4938 - October 18, 2018, 08:59 AM
    Yes.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4939 - October 18, 2018, 09:03 AM
    Altara,

    hgr stem: Yes, Jallad found one which could mean migrate but the usual safaitic is a different word. There is only one hgr in the entire safaitic corpus meaning this. It could be an indication that hgr as migrate be the regular meaning in the later Quranic corpus, but there might also be another explanation.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4940 - October 18, 2018, 11:16 AM
    As I already said, in the Jallad case it does not mean "emigrate" or "migrate" but "moving" or "travelling" which not (at all) the same thing. "moving" or "travelling"is related to Hagar.
     "emigrate" or "migrate" are later elaborations of the Muslim narrative about the HGR root used in the Quran.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4941 - October 18, 2018, 11:21 AM
    Altara,

    Even the moving is not really clear and absolute. I dont think this hgr in Safaitic has discredited Kerr's article. Rather it should be reviewed including the Safaitic finds, and maybe the conclusion will be different. But that outcome is not sure imo.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4942 - October 18, 2018, 11:41 AM
    Quote
    and for the camels, which he pastured, having [migrated] moved /travelled/voyaged from the inner desert, the year Bnt died.


    but certainly not "emigrated"/"Migrated" in the Muslims meaning : expelled from a place to another one.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4943 - October 18, 2018, 11:57 AM
    Altara,

    Yes, but the whole corpus finds only around 2 examples with this translation. Even "moving"is at this point guess work imo. There are hundreds of case where for "migration"other safaitic words are used.

    1/ so yes, I agree, moving is not migrating
    2/ and if one would associate moving with the hijra, the correct Safaitic translation of hgr  should be scrutinised because it seems to be a dis legomenon in the corpus

    http://krcfm.orient.ox.ac.uk/fmi/webd#ociana

    Guess this is something for the experts...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4944 - October 19, 2018, 04:20 PM
    Quote from: mundi on October 18, 2018, 11:57 AM
    Altara,

    Yes, but the whole corpus finds only around 2 examples with this translation. Even "moving"is at this point guess work imo. There are hundreds of case where for "migration"other safaitic words are used.

    1/ so yes, I agree, moving is not migrating
    2/ and if one would associate moving with the hijra, the correct Safaitic translation of hgr  should be scrutinised because it seems to be a dis legomenon in the corpus

    http://krcfm.orient.ox.ac.uk/fmi/webd#ociana

    Guess this is something for the experts...

    so what is happening here mundi??. I am Lost

    Is this discussion on  moving., migration or expulsion... whatever  .. Is that all about  THAT STORY of  Prophet of Islam  was  persecuted in Mecca and he migrated to  Madina along with his followers  ?
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4945 - October 19, 2018, 04:33 PM
    Yeez,

    Kerr says that Hgr has nothing to do with emigration, but rather connected to Hagar or other things. He claims that Hgr is not attested in any semitic language meaning migration.

    Here comes Jallad with a find in Safaitic (hgr) that might mean moving. Does that undermine Kerr's theory?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4946 - October 19, 2018, 05:44 PM
    To an extent, yes. It does not, however, refute his meta-theory of the "year of the Arabs" being the year Heraclius together with his non-Trinitarian Christians Arabs allies vanquishing the Persians. 
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4947 - October 19, 2018, 06:22 PM
    Magraye,

    But the fact that hgr is only used once (maybe twice) in the entire (enormous) Safaitic corpus in that sense does make me hope that the scholars will have another look.  Words dont get transfered to next generation if not frequently used...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4948 - October 19, 2018, 06:38 PM
    Do you have any comments on Emran El-Badawi´s book, "The Qur’an and the Aramaic Gospel Traditions"? Is his research much discussed or controversial?
    Here is a short review:
    http://middleeastreviewsonline.com/membr_review/the-quran-and-the-aramaic-gospel-traditions/
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4949 - October 19, 2018, 06:54 PM
    Quote from: mundi on October 19, 2018, 04:33 PM
    Yeez,

    Kerr says that Hgr has nothing to do with emigration, but rather connected to Hagar or other things.


    However, Hagar is connected to "moving" as she moved from Abraham house. It is not then surprising to see her named "Hagar" (Haha!)

    Quote
    He claims that Hgr is not attested in any semitic language meaning migration.


    But migrating is somewhat "moving".

    Quote
    Here comes Jallad with a find in Safaitic (hgr) that might mean moving. Does that undermine Kerr's theory?



    But "moving" is not "migrating". But "migrating" is necessarily "moving"  Wink
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