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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4770 - October 12, 2018, 08:31 AM
    Quote
    Is seeing the Quran as a war vademecum too harsh?


    See my post above.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4771 - October 12, 2018, 08:58 AM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on October 11, 2018, 03:35 PM
    God,
    Quote
    this  filthy  lying, ignorant, stupid, disingenuous, illiterate, cringeworthy, ...... retarded lapdog, ..........

     

    What is so funny is that they are so damn inconsistent. Do you guys really think they apply the same standards to their own scripture? Nope. As apologists, they don't. Both are nothing but Bible-thumping Christians who don't even read the sources they cite. .................

    Well everything is created by some one and some one created Jay Smith  for some reason dear Mahgraye .. So  we should _____HIM & complain
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4772 - October 12, 2018, 09:29 AM
    Quote
    The Quran has a strong Jewish layer so saying it was a Christian text seems problematic.


    The Quran displays a Christians context, in that parts of the Quran, have a Christian background. There is a difference between this and what you wrote.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4773 - October 12, 2018, 09:33 AM
    Quote
    For me,  there is  no  a later "islamization" of the Quran which would have been a (kind) of "Christian" text before as some scholars think.


    Does this mean you reject the following assessment of the Quran:

    Quote
    The Quran displays a Christians context, in that parts of the Quran, have a Christian background.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4774 - October 12, 2018, 09:35 AM
    Quote
    This is the point of some scholars; Luling, Luxenberg, etc.

     

    What do you mean? Luxenberg thinks there is a Jewish layer to the Quran and this can't be Christian or something to that effect? Same for Luling?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4775 - October 12, 2018, 09:39 AM
    Quote
    The Quran has a strong Jewish layer so saying it was a Christian text seems problematic.

    Quote
    The Quran displays a Christians context, in that parts of the Quran, have a Christian background. There is a difference between this and what you wrote.


    Interesting to see both statements (yawn)...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4776 - October 12, 2018, 09:40 AM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on October 12, 2018, 09:35 AM
     

    What do you mean? Luxenberg thinks there is a Jewish layer to the Quran and this can't be Christian or something to that effect? Same for Luling?


      "A Jewish layer Can not be Christian But Christian Layer can be Jewish"


    well let me look in to this

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4777 - October 12, 2018, 09:44 AM
    Why yawn, haha?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4778 - October 12, 2018, 09:51 AM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on October 12, 2018, 09:33 AM
    Does this mean you reject the following assessment of the Quran: The Quran displays a Christians context, in that parts of the Quran, have a Christian background.

    What I say is : "For me,  there is  no  a later "islamization" of the Quran which would have been a (kind) of "Christian" text before as some scholars think."
    It seems to me that there is no relation between what I say (which is clear) and what you say. What I say is not agreeing or disagreeing with your statement. Be more precise.


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4779 - October 12, 2018, 09:52 AM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on October 12, 2018, 09:35 AM
     

    What do you mean? Luxenberg thinks there is a Jewish layer to the Quran and this can't be Christian or something to that effect? Same for Luling?



    Christian layer for both. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christoph_Luxenberg
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%BCnter_L%C3%BCling

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4780 - October 12, 2018, 09:58 AM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on October 12, 2018, 09:44 AM
    Why yawn, haha?


    Reflect.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4781 - October 12, 2018, 02:03 PM
    Quote
    Reflect.


    Altara would make the worst teacher ever, haha.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lV1dKJmCL58

    What do you think of this clip? Reminds me of what you said about the rebuilding of the Temple 637.

    Quote
    Christian layer for both.


    There are some important differences between Luling and Luxenberg. Many conflate between the two. For Luling, the earliest layers of the Quran compromised of Christian hymns along the lines of the Ebionites and Elchasites. Pre-Nicene, in other words. The term "Arian" was also used in describing the hymns Luling had in mind. Luxenberg, on the other hand, believes the Quran was originally an Orthodox Trinitarian work.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4782 - October 12, 2018, 02:31 PM
    Quote
    What do you think of this clip? Reminds me of what you said about the rebuilding of the Temple 637.


    Interesting.


    Quote
    There are some important differences between Luling and Luxenberg.


    Of course. I never said the contrary  : " of the Quran which would have been a (kind) of "Christian" text "
    Parentheses and quotation mark Wink.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4783 - October 12, 2018, 07:42 PM
    Quote
    Of course. I never said the contrary: " of the Quran which would have been a (kind) of "Christian" text "
    Parentheses and quotation mark Wink.


    My bad. Still useful that I clarified the matter a little bit for those who might not know.

    Quote
    Interesting.

     

    Yes, indeed. The suggestion is very intriguing and makes sense as well. Fits well with the overall theme of modern findings. This would also support your idea that the Temple was rebuilt around 637. Even the Muslim sources inform us that Abd al-Malik built the Dome of the Rock as a place of pilgrimage (albeit to compete with Mecca, if I remember correctly).
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4784 - October 13, 2018, 03:32 AM
    Quote
    This would also support your idea that the Temple was rebuilt around 637.


    1/ It is the sources, not my idea .
    2/ They just do what they read in a Quranic text (Q 2,127). The place is the Abraham one, and they are Ishmael, since they are named/designed like this by all (except by the Persians who are outside the Biblical world) and  by Q 2,127
    3/ They built a house (bayt) of prayer,  what was the ancient Temple in a certain way, rebuilding it because it was destroyed. Did they were aware of that? I do not know. I think they did it because of  Q 2,127 : it's logical. Where would they get this idea?
    4/ There's no Prophet/ Mecca/Kaba/Zem Zem.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4785 - October 13, 2018, 04:12 AM
    Quote from: Altara on October 13, 2018, 03:32 AM
    ....................................................................
    2/ They just do what they read in a Quranic text (Q 2,127). The place is the Abraham one, and they are Ishmael, since they are named/designed like this by all (except by the Persians who are outside the Biblical world) and  by Q 2,127
    3/ They built a house (bayt) of prayer,  what was the ancient Temple in a certain way, rebuilding it because it was destroyed. Did they were aware of that? I do not know. I think they did it because of  Q 2,127 : it's logical. Where would they get this idea?
    ....................................................................

     Damn you are good in writing Quran dear Altara .. very cryptic...   

    well  let me read  that verse Q 2,127..
    Quote
    127   And when Ibrahim and Ismail raised the foundations of the House: Our Lord! accept from us; surely Thou art the Hearing, the Knowing:   


     So I am  just curious ...."on and around that verse  Q 2,127"....  I wonder what  the present scholars  of Islam   ((WHO GOT THE IDEA )), what do they think about the place?  the place  where " the foundations of the House" are raised??

    on the way let me read some Quran around Q 2,127
    Quote
    122   O children of Israel, call to mind My favor which I bestowed on you and that I made you excel the nations.   
     
    123   And be on your guard against a day when no soul shall avail another in the least neither shall any compensation be accepted from it, nor shall intercession profit it, nor shall they be helped.   
     
    124   And when his Lord tried Ibrahim with certain words, he fulfilled them. He said: Surely I will make you an Imam of men. Ibrahim said: And of my offspring? My covenant does not include the unjust, said He.   
     
    125   And when We made the House a pilgrimage for men and a (place of) security, and: Appoint for yourselves a place of prayer on the standing-place of Ibrahim. And We enjoined Ibrahim and Ismail saying: Purify My House for those who visit (it) and those who abide (in it) for devotion and those who bow down (and) those who prostrate themselves.   
     
    126   And when Ibrahim said: My Lord, make it a secure town and provide its people with fruits, such of them as believe in Allah and the last day. He said: And whoever disbelieves, I will grant him enjoyment for a short while, then I will drive him to the chastisement of the fire; and it is an evil destination.   
     
    127   And when Ibrahim and Ismail raised the foundations of the House: Our Lord! accept from us; surely Thou art the Hearing, the Knowing:   
     
    128   Our Lord! and make us both submissive to Thee and (raise) from our offspring a nation submitting to Thee, and show us our ways of devotion and turn to us (mercifully), surely Thou art the Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.   
     
    129   Our Lord! and raise up in them an Apostle from among them who shall recite to them Thy communications and teach them the Book and the wisdom, and purify them; surely Thou art the Mighty, the Wise.   
     
    130   And who forsakes the religion of Ibrahim but he who makes himself a fool, and most certainly We chose him in this world, and in the hereafter he is most surely among the righteous.   
     
    131   When his Lord said to him, Be a Muslim, he said: I submit myself to the Lord of the worlds.   
     
    132   And the same did Ibrahim enjoin on his sons and (so did) Yaqoub. O my sons! surely Allah has chosen for you (this) faith, therefore die not unless you are Muslims.   
     
    133   Nay! were you witnesses when death visited Yaqoub, when he said to his sons: What will you serve after me? They said: We will serve your God and the God of your fathers, Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq, one God only, and to Him do we submit.   
     
    134   This is a people that have passed away; they shall have what they earned and you shall have what you earn, and you shall not be called upon to answer for what they did.   
     
    135   And they say: Be Jews or Christians, you will be on the right course. Say: Nay! (we follow) the religion of Ibrahim, the Hanif, and he was not one of the polytheists.

    with best regards
    yeezevee
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4786 - October 13, 2018, 04:37 AM
    Quote
    Damn you are good in writing Quran dear Altara .. very cryptic...   


    Not at all (both) Wink

    Quote
    So I am  just curious ...."on and around that verse  Q 2,127"....  I wonder what  the present scholars  of Islam   ((WHO GOT THE IDEA )), what do they think about the place?  the place  where " the foundations of the House" are raised??


    Same as Muslim narratives : Prophet/ Mecca/Kaba/Zem Zem.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4787 - October 13, 2018, 04:46 AM
    Quote from: Altara on October 13, 2018, 04:37 AM
    Not at all (both) Wink

    Same as Muslim narratives : Prophet/ Mecca/Kaba/Zem Zem.

      STOP THAT    Cheesy

    again
    Quote
    127   And when Ibrahim and Ismail raised the foundations of the House: Our Lord! accept from us; surely Thou art the Hearing, the Knowing: 


    do these  present scholars  of Islam    think that Ibrahim and Ismail raised the foundations of the House:   in Mecaa next to Zam Zam water ??
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4788 - October 13, 2018, 05:24 AM
    Quote
    do these  present scholars  of Islam think that Ibrahim and Ismail raised the foundations of the House:   in Mecca next to Zam Zam water ??



    From the moment  they adhere to the Muslim narratives of the origin of the Quranic texts they accept "Mecca" as a real place with a Kaba as the context of the Quranic texts : (Prophet/Mecca/Kaba/Zem Zem). It has to be understood that these narratives (Prophet/ Mecca/Kaba/Zem Zem) are the following of the  story : "Ibrahim and Ismail raised the foundations of the House:   in Mecca next to Zam Zam water".
    Therefore these  present scholars unbeknownst to them or not, validate one way or another at least symbolically the "Ibrahim and Ismail raised the foundations of the House" Quranic verses...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4789 - October 13, 2018, 06:07 AM
    Quote from: Altara on October 13, 2018, 05:24 AM

    From the moment  they adhere to the Muslim narratives of the origin of the Quranic texts they accept "Mecca" as a real place with a Kaba as the context of the Quranic texts : (Prophet/Mecca/Kaba/Zem Zem). It has to be understood that these narratives (Prophet/ Mecca/Kaba/Zem Zem) are the following of the  story : "Ibrahim and Ismail raised the foundations of the House:   in Mecca next to Zam Zam water".
    Quote
    Therefore these present scholars unbeknownst to them or not, validate one way or another at least symbolically the "Ibrahim and Ismail raised the foundations of the House" Quranic verses...



    I wonder whether you or Mahgraye  could  throw me some reference of those scholars( UNIVERSITY FACULTIES) who explored Quran  and published papers and say that verse is talking about Mecca
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4790 - October 13, 2018, 07:00 AM
    Quote
    Let us say for the sake of argument that we do not have any record of Mecca being a trading civilisation, does that negate the Muslim historical claim that it was? If it does, then the Medieval Castle of Africa in Great Zimbabwe, whose history was lost till fairly recently, must be a fairy tale because it is not mentioned in any historical record despite the fact that archeological evidence has demonstrated that it was an important centre for trade. Artifacts and coins from Persia and as far away as China have been discovered at the site of the uncovered lost civilisation. Despite its evident trading ties with China, Persia and other great civilisations, records of its existence are not to be found in China, Persia or elsewhere. The Indus civilisation is another great example of a forgotten segment of human history. This was a mighty nation that disappeared into oblivion and whose existence was unknown until the first quarter of the 20th century when archaeological discoveries were made in Harappa. Until that time the civilisation was practically non-existent in the thoughts of men. It wasn't even in any fairy tale. But when it was discovered, it was a marvel of history. The civilisation was stunningly advance and it had trade relations with Mesopotamia and that remains a hallmark of global trade between two distant civilisations. If the Indus civilisation had traded with as far a civilisation as Mesopotamia, it is likely that it had trade relations with nearer surrounding civilisations, but no record of the Indus civilisation's existence can be found elsewhere. These and many similar examples negate the argument of revisionists that try to negate the traditional Muslim claim concerning Mecca being a trading centre for the Arabian Peninsula. If Mecca was a non-trading nation, then historians would have a difficult time explaining its long historical existence in Islam (dating back to its beginnings) as it was a land devoid of cultivation. How would the population have survived and sustained its existence if there was no trade going through Mecca? It is ridiculous to propose that for some odd and inexplicable reason, the alleged inventor/s of Islam chose an inhospitable and non-fertile area of the expansive Arabian Peninsula to build the centre and headquarters of its religious devotion. The revisionist conspiracy theory simply requires far too much unfeasible creative imagination to have any historical credibility.


    I want everyone's honest, non-polemical, and scholarly take on this assessment of the non-existence of Mecca hypothesis.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4791 - October 13, 2018, 07:10 AM
    Quote from: yeezevee on October 13, 2018, 06:07 AM
    I wonder whether you or Mahgraye  could  throw me some reference of those scholars( UNIVERSITY FACULTIES) who explored Quran  and published papers and say that verse is talking about Mecca

     They say that the 9th c. sources say that this verse is talking about Mecca. Therefore from the moment  they adhere to the Muslim narratives of the origin of the Quranic texts they accept "Mecca" as a real place with a Kaba as the context of the origin of the Quranic texts : (Prophet/Mecca/Kaba/Zem Zem). It has to be understood that these narratives (Prophet/ Mecca/Kaba/Zem Zem) are the following of the  story : "Ibrahim and Ismail raised the foundations of the House:   in Mecca next to Zam Zam water".
    Therefore these  present scholars unbeknownst to them or not, validate one way or another at least symbolically the "Ibrahim and Ismail raised the foundations of the House" Quranic verses...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4792 - October 13, 2018, 08:35 AM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on October 13, 2018, 07:00 AM
    I want everyone's honest, non-polemical, and scholarly take on this assessment of the non-existence of Mecca hypothesis.

     Is it from a blog or from a publication in a decent journal??  If it is from publication then I can only give my honest opinion when you give me the link of where it is published dear Mahgraye ..  If it is from a blog.. then I do not care...
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4793 - October 13, 2018, 08:35 AM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on October 13, 2018, 07:00 AM
    I want everyone's honest, non-polemical, and scholarly take on this assessment of the non-existence of Mecca hypothesis.


    Quote
    Let us say for the sake of argument that we do not have any record of Mecca being a trading civilisation,


    There is no "sake of argument" here. There is nothing whereas it is affirmed the contrary.
    Quote
    does that negate the Muslim historical claim that it was?


    It this specific area, yes.

     
    Quote
    If it does, then the Medieval Castle of Africa in Great Zimbabwe,


    I do not know the topic. What scholar of Late Antiquity know this stuff? Almost none. Especially when  "Medieval Castle of Africa in Great Zimbabwe" is thrown to you face like that ; no introduction, chronology, etc.

    Quote
    Artifacts and coins from Persia and as far away as China have been discovered at the site of the uncovered lost civilisation.


    Zimbabwe in Africa? There is no scripture there.

    Quote
    The Indus civilisation is another great example of a forgotten segment of human history. This was a mighty nation that disappeared into oblivion and whose existence was unknown until the first quarter of the 20th century when archaeological discoveries were made in Harappa. Until that time the civilisation was practically non-existent in the thoughts of men. It wasn't even in any fairy tale. But when it was discovered, it was a marvel of history. The civilisation was stunningly advance and it had trade relations with Mesopotamia and that remains a hallmark of global trade between two distant civilisations. If the Indus civilisation had traded with as far a civilisation as Mesopotamia, it is likely that it had trade relations with nearer surrounding civilisations, but no record of the Indus civilisation's existence can be found elsewhere.


    Yes. There's is many civilizations lost. Of course.  But "Mecca" is not existent at all. Only the basalt. And Islam is not lost. What is "lost" is  that there was something. And there is no sources. It is not at all the same situation described by this paper. At all.
    Quote
    These and many similar examples negate the argument of revisionists


    Negates nothing. The situations of theses lost civilization are not (at all) the same as "Mecca". Nothing to see. Apparently yes. Just apparently and that's all.

    Quote
    If Mecca was a non-trading nation, then historians would have a difficult time explaining its long historical existence in Islam (dating back to its beginnings) as it was a land devoid of cultivation.


    What historians? "Muslims historians"  who have to believed this story to be Muslim, that's all...



    Quote
    How would the population have survived and sustained its existence if there was no trade going through Mecca?


    Of course, that is why there's no Mecca.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4794 - October 13, 2018, 08:38 AM
    Quote
    Is it from a blog or from a publication in a decent journal??  If it is from publication then I can only give my honest opinion when you give me the link of where it is published dear Mahgraye ..  If it is from a blog.. then I do not care...


    The text is from a Facebook post. However, one should judge the arguments on their own merit.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4795 - October 13, 2018, 08:43 AM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on October 13, 2018, 08:38 AM
    The text is from a Facebook post. However, one should judge the arguments on their own merit.

     true ..

    but there is a  huge difference in publishing a hypothesis in    SOME FACE BOOK/SOME TWITTER/ SOME BLOG   and in some GIBBERISH LINKS  versus publishing it in a peer reviewed journals ., I am sure you know the difference ..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4796 - October 13, 2018, 08:45 AM
    Those references in your post at https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=27568.msg881055#msg881055  ..

    are they for me dear Mahgraye?  if they are thank you....  Oops you deleted the post immediately
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4797 - October 13, 2018, 09:24 AM
    Oh! My latest post if that unfished essay of mine on the preservation of the Quran. And as you saw, it is rich with references just for you, haha.

    You did ask for a list of the variant in the Sanaa palimpsest. See: A list of variants can be found in Behnam Sadeghi & Uwe Bergmann, “The Codex of a Companion of the Prophet and the Qurʾān of the Prophet,” Arabica 57 (2010), pp. 417–33; Mohammad Lamsiah, Makhṭūṭāt al-Qurʾān: madkhal li-dirāsat al-makhṭūṭāt al-qadīma, Canada, 2017, p. 210, 214 and 218. 
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4798 - October 13, 2018, 09:33 AM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on October 13, 2018, 07:00 AM
    I want everyone's honest, non-polemical, and scholarly take on this assessment of the non-existence of Mecca hypothesis.



    Well Jacob of Edessa's testimony proves that the ka'ba was not in current day Mecca so there is still an issue :

    - whether Mecca was somewhere else with the Ka'ba but under a different name,

    - whether Mecca did exist where it is today but the ka'ba was not there


    In both cases, muslim narrative about its history has an issue, and a serious one.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4799 - October 13, 2018, 09:38 AM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on October 13, 2018, 09:24 AM
    ....................it is rich with references just for you, haha.................

    Oh Ok.. Thank you., Now on that face book page of your post

    Quote from: Mahgraye on October 13, 2018, 07:00 AM
    I want everyone's honest, non-polemical, and scholarly take on this assessment of the non-existence of Mecca hypothesis.
    Quote
    Let us say for the sake of argument that we do not have any record of Mecca being a trading civilisation, does that negate the Muslim historical claim that it was? If it does, then the Medieval Castle of Africa in Great Zimbabwe, whose history was lost till fairly recently, must be a fairy tale because it is not mentioned in any historical record despite the fact that archeological evidence has demonstrated that it was an important centre for trade. Artifacts and coins from Persia and as far away as China have been discovered at the site of the uncovered lost civilisation. Despite its evident trading ties with China, Persia and other great civilisations, records of its existence are not to be found in China, Persia or elsewhere. The Indus civilisation is another great example of a forgotten segment of human history. This was a mighty nation that disappeared into oblivion and whose existence was unknown until the first quarter of the 20th century when archaeological discoveries were made in Harappa. Until that time the civilisation was practically non-existent in the thoughts of men. It wasn't even in any fairy tale. But when it was discovered, it was a marvel of history. The civilisation was stunningly advance and it had trade relations with Mesopotamia and that remains a hallmark of global trade between two distant civilisations. If the Indus civilisation had traded with as far a civilisation as Mesopotamia, it is likely that it had trade relations with nearer surrounding civilisations, but no record of the Indus civilisation's existence can be found elsewhere. These and many similar examples negate the argument of revisionists that try to negate the traditional Muslim claim concerning Mecca being a trading centre for the Arabian Peninsula. If Mecca was a non-trading nation, then historians would have a difficult time explaining its long historical existence in Islam (dating back to its beginnings) as it was a land devoid of cultivation. How would the population have survived and sustained its existence if there was no trade going through Mecca? It is ridiculous to propose that for some odd and inexplicable reason, the alleged inventor/s of Islam chose an inhospitable and non-fertile area of the expansive Arabian Peninsula to build the centre and headquarters of its religious devotion. The revisionist conspiracy theory simply requires far too much unfeasible creative imagination to have any historical credibility.


    Can you give me the link of that face book page ??   .. I will try to post it there
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
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