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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4650 - October 08, 2018, 03:06 PM
    MAggraye,

    Have you read Shaddel's article?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4651 - October 08, 2018, 03:07 PM
     This displacing of the event in Petra is interesting. In doing this, what want to do ]the authors? Make believe what? That the Sleepers were Arabs?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4652 - October 08, 2018, 03:11 PM
    Quote from: mundi on October 08, 2018, 03:06 PM
    MAggraye,

    Have you read Shaddel's article?


    There's one article of Griffith :“Christian lore and the Arabic Qur’an: The ‘Companions of the Cave’ in al-Kahf and in Syriac Christian tradition,” and the one of Reynold "The Companions of the Cave"  in The Quran and Its Biblical Subtext.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4653 - October 08, 2018, 03:15 PM
    Quote
    How did you get to know about RQM? Was it published somewhere else?


    I just went to Wikipedia to read the article about Petra if I remember correctly and I just made the link at once with ar Raqim.



  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4654 - October 08, 2018, 03:18 PM
    Explanation for the Petra setting:

    Maybe the authors of the Quran knew tha Arabia Petraea area well (and maybe lived there).

    From the graffiti that are recently discovered (even if here and there one might be "added" out of religious fervor) it seems clear that the early Arabic used is identical to the Quranic Arabic. These discoveries are made on the fringes of Arabia Petraea (I think...), so why not accept the obvious? The geography is there, the toponyms are there, the religious setting is plausible, the script is plausible... the only thing that is weird is that there are no contemporary sources describing this heresy. But then we dont find these sources elsewhere either.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4655 - October 08, 2018, 03:21 PM
    The 7 sleepers case and the century long RQM question just proves that scholars can prove almost anything until someone comes with the obvious and ultimate explanation. Then the mystery is solved. Very smart and learned persons usually are not always right, but just contribute to the solution of part of the puzzle.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4656 - October 08, 2018, 03:53 PM
    Quote from: mundi on October 08, 2018, 03:18 PM
    Explanation for the Petra setting:

    Maybe the authors of the Quran knew tha Arabia Petraea area well (and maybe lived there).


    Informed people knew it, no need to live there.




    Quote
    These discoveries are made on the fringes of Arabia Petraea (I think...), so why not accept the obvious?

     

    Haha! For me there's is no obvious
    Quote
    The geography is there, the toponyms are there, the religious setting is plausible, the script is plausible...


    Not as simple as that.



  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4657 - October 08, 2018, 04:49 PM
    Reread Shaddel's article again. His conclusion is this:


    Quote
    This Arabian version had to champion an Arabian city as the abode of its heroes, and Petra, founded by the sons of Ishmael, was the Arabian city
     par excellence
    .


    So then I rethink, in this context is the direction of the Jerash mosque towards Petra really a coincidence?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4658 - October 08, 2018, 05:37 PM
    Quote from: mundi on October 08, 2018, 04:49 PM
    Reread Shaddel's article again. His conclusion is this:
    Quote

    This Arabian version had to champion an Arabian city as the abode of its heroes, and Petra, founded by the sons of Ishmael, was the Arabian city par excellence

    So then I rethink, in this context is the direction of the Jerash mosque towards Petra really a coincidence?

    well  sorry to say this but  by writing the story of  Ishmael and by believing in that biblical story.   May Shaddel becomes a 21st century Mehadi NOT AN OBJECTIVE HISTORIAN OF FAITHS/RELIGIONS
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4659 - October 08, 2018, 05:38 PM
    Quote
    So then I rethink, in this context is the direction of the Jerash mosque towards Petra really a coincidence?

    Yes it is. What else on Petra in the Quran?


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4660 - October 08, 2018, 05:45 PM
    Quote from: Altara on October 08, 2018, 12:41 PM
    1/ Yes.
    2/ Nope. It is the text which " making those verses as words some allah/god"



      helloooo  Altara...  i like your "yes"  but on that  "It is the text which " making those verses as words some allah/god""  .. almost all faith texts  say directly/indirectly their religious sayings/verses as words some allah/god....   So Quran  is no exception to that ..but but you are NOT ANSWERING MY QUESTIONS ., hiding behind allah/god words "this forum is not the right place"?? for revelation??...lol...

    Quote from: yeezevee on October 08, 2018, 10:08 AM

    .......... But the problem is why the author of Quran  make reference to these bible allusions as it  is NOT directly being discussed/debated.

    ........ Question is  what were the underlying events that made the authors of Quran to tell old bible  tales  

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4661 - October 08, 2018, 05:45 PM
    Ismael: Shaddel quotes Josephus. Nowhere does he say it is true and it is a historical fact...

    Petra, where else:  Shaddel has maybe 10 referenced to Petra from the Antiquity era. At least we have something. What location in Iraq do you propose?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4662 - October 08, 2018, 05:48 PM
    Quote from: Altara on October 08, 2018, 05:38 PM
    Yes it is. What else on Petra in the Quran?


    well  it has same amount of text as that of these words  "Mecca"., "Madina", .. "Zam zam"... off course the word "Muhammad " in Quran beats other three words ., it is mentioned four times..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4663 - October 08, 2018, 05:51 PM
    Quote from: mundi on October 08, 2018, 05:45 PM
    Ismael: Shaddel quotes Josephus. Nowhere does he say it is true and it is a historical fact...

    Petra, where else:  Shaddel has maybe 10 referenced to Petra from the Antiquity era. At least we have something. What location in Iraq do you propose?

    who is Josephus  and which Josephus ??  another believer?

    Location for what dear mundi? origins of Quran text?? Do we really need an exact location to write that text in Quran ?? Altara  is blasting his trumpet  almost in every post.....
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4664 - October 08, 2018, 06:58 PM
    Quote from: mundi on October 08, 2018, 03:06 PM

    What were the important places for Arabs we know of?

    1/ Jerusalem
    2/ ?
    3/ ?


    Different sources are telling you that the patriarchal place of the Arabs was in the Neguev, not Petra.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4665 - October 08, 2018, 07:17 PM
    Marc,

    That is a vague answer... Can you be more specific? So I can't put Petra on the list?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4666 - October 08, 2018, 07:32 PM
    Quote
    MAggraye,

    Have you read Shaddel's article?


    Yes. Read it not that long ago.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4667 - October 08, 2018, 07:32 PM
    Quote
    well  sorry to say this but  by writing the story of  Ishmael and by believing in that biblical story.   May Shaddel becomes a 21st century Mehadi NOT AN OBJECTIVE HISTORIAN OF FAITHS/RELIGIONS


    Please read the article once again. Shaddel does not believe in the Bible.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4668 - October 08, 2018, 07:50 PM
    Quote
    emergence (n.)

    1640s, "unforeseen occurrence," from French émergence, from emerger, from Latin emergere "rise up" (see emerge). Meaning "an emerging, process of coming forth" is from 1704.
    emerge (v.)

    1560s, from Middle French émerger and directly from Latin emergere "bring forth, bring to light," intransitively "arise out or up, come forth, come up, come out, rise," from assimilated form of ex "out" (see ex-) + mergere "to dip, sink" (see merge). The notion is of rising from a liquid by virtue of buoyancy. Related: Emerged; emerging.

    French word, like 60% of English vocabulary.


    The problem was not so much etymology but what you meant by the term. Let see if I got it. Here you mean that the text was brought forth to an audience - in this case, the Arabs - somewhere between 600 and 650 AD. Is that right? So - and this is probably the main point of contention - you think that the text could have been written anywhere in Arabia Petraea, which includes the Egyptian Sinai, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, South-eastern Turkey, and North-western Iraq; and was finally spread to the Arabs in Iraq between the years 600 and 650 AD? Because my understanding (or mis-) was that you thought the text has its origins in Iraq and not, let's say, Syria or Palestine, to name a few examples (see the other countries named above).

    And since we discuss the potential milieu of the Quran and early Islam, what do you think of the Gibson's work on the early mosques? Do you think them pointing (allegedly) towards Petra to be a coincidence?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4669 - October 08, 2018, 07:56 PM
    Quote from: mundi on October 08, 2018, 07:17 PM
    Marc,

    That is a vague answer... Can you be more specific? So I can't put Petra on the list?


    Some sources do mention the patriarchal place of the Arabs.

    Question to you : was Petra ever considered to be that ? is Petra mentionned in Genesis ?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4670 - October 08, 2018, 08:00 PM
    Quote
    This is getting to be an intellectual trio btw Marc, Maggraye, Altara...

    It would be nice that you guys expand a bit your arguments so the rest of us can follow (unless you don't want "the rest" to follow...)


    You describing me as an intellectual is a great honor and greatly appreciated. However, I am not an intellectual. Maybe the word is more befitting of Altara and Marc S.

    As to your question, what is that you want to know? And to be completely honest, I am not sure I follow most of these discussions either, especially those between Altara and Marc S. I might as well include your comments in that category.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4671 - October 08, 2018, 08:06 PM
    Quote
    "Mary's delivery in Bethlehem"  the Quran? "Bethlehem" written in the Quran? You sure?


    I consider it best to quote my sources instead of writing myself.

    Claude Gilliot:

    Quote
    The Qur˒ānic narratives on Jesus’ birth under a palm-tree and the words of the baby Jesus (Q 19: 23-26) are very similar to the Pseudo-Gospel of Matthew : « And the pangs of the childbirth drove her (i.e. Mary) unto the trunk of a palm-tree... (Q 19: 23) (Jesus said to her) : And shake the trunk of the palm-tree toward thee, thou wilt cause ripe dates to fall upon thee » (Q 19: 25).

    [...]

    According to the Liber de infantia this took place in Egypt, but in the Qur˒ān it occurred during the delivery of Mary.


    Stephen Shoemaker:

    Quote
    is primarily a reworking of the Protevangelium of James, to which Pseudo- Matthew adds some “unique” material, including in particular the story of Mary’s encounter with the date palm during the flight into Egypt. . . . In view of Pseudo-Matthew’s combination of these early Christian apocryphal traditions, it might at first glance be tempting to identify this apocryphon as the primary source of the Qurʾān’s borrowed Christian traditions: most of the traditions that appear in the Qurʾān are found in some form or another in Ps.-Matthew. Unfortunately, however, the solution is not so simple.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4672 - October 08, 2018, 08:51 PM
    Topic: list of places important to Arabs

    Marc,

    Quote
    Question to you : was Petra ever considered to be that ? is Petra mentionned in Genesis ?


    You replied to my quest to determine important Arab localities by "Petra wasnt important to them"and "those places are rather in the Negev". I really dont know. I know Shaddel thinks that Petra was important in Late Antiquity (he closed his article with that). But I don't know. So I hope you can contribute to my knowledge.

    Petra is not in genesis, but so what... Does it need to be to be important to Arabs? Lourdes isn't in Genesis either...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4673 - October 08, 2018, 09:13 PM
    An interesting inscription

    https://www.jstor.org/stable/617910?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4674 - October 08, 2018, 09:14 PM
    Quote from: mundi on October 08, 2018, 08:51 PM

    Petra is not in genesis, but so what... Does it need to be to be important to Arabs? Lourdes isn't in Genesis either...


    Lourdes isn't known as the patriarchal place of the Arabs neither, nor of the catholics.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4675 - October 08, 2018, 09:45 PM
    Quote
    Here you mean that the text was brought forth to an audience - in this case, the Arabs


    Well the Quran is not in Syriac/Greek/Persian/Latin...

    Quote
    somewhere between 600 and 650 AD. Is that right?


    Grosso modo yes.

    Quote
    you think that the text could have been written anywhere in Arabia Petraea, which includes the Egyptian Sinai, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, South-eastern Turkey, and North-western Iraq; and was finally spread to the Arabs in Iraq between the years 600 and 650 AD? Because my understanding (or mis-) was that you thought the text has its origins in Iraq and not, let's say, Syria or Palestine, to name a few examples (see the other countries named above).


    But I do not exclude Iraq from my list. My list corresponds to scribal places where  Arabic language is spoken one way or another.

    Quote
    And since we discuss the potential milieu of the Quran and early Islam, what do you think of the Gibson's work on the early mosques? Do you think them pointing (allegedly) towards Petra to be a coincidence?


    There is an explication about the pointing to Petra. I do not think that it is by chance ; early mosques point to it.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4676 - October 08, 2018, 10:16 PM
    Quote
    Well, the Quran is not in Syriac/Greek/Persian/Latin...


    Haha. Yes. Interesting that you don't think the Quran is written in Syriac.

    Quote
    But I do not exclude Iraq from my list. My list corresponds to scribal places where the Arabic language is spoken one way or another.


    Yes. That is why I included North-western Iraq, which is also part of Arabia Petraea.

    Quote
    There is an explication about the pointing to Petra. I do not think that it is by chance; early mosques point to it.


    Looking forward to your explanation. But of course, this is probably not the time and place to explain it, right, haha? Anyways. It seems that the source(s) of the Quran are scattered all over the place. Iraq, Petra, Syria, Palestine, and so on. Not sure. You would not restrict the emergence of the Quran to one place, say, Iraq, since you said that it could have been written anywhere in Arabia Petraea (including Iraq), as those places had a scribal culture, and it was only in Iraq where the text was brought forth to an audience (Arabs).
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4677 - October 09, 2018, 06:32 AM
    Quote
    Looking forward to your explanation. But of course, this is probably not the time and place to explain it, right, haha?

     

    Hahaha!!! I work to find explication. What is interesting is the building on the Temple Mount in 637 and after, this direction  of mosques to Petra and that the narrative (9th c.) describes Petra to describe "Mecca" in the "Hijaz". It is not seems odd to you? It seems to me. Reflect.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4678 - October 09, 2018, 11:38 AM
    Quote
    Hahaha!!! I work to find explication. What is interesting is the building on the Temple Mount in 637 and after, this direction of mosques to Petra and that the narrative (9th c.) describes Petra to describe "Mecca" in the "Hijaz". It does not seem odd to you? It seems to me. Reflect.


    You know what? I would not be even remotely surprised if your article(s) and/or book(s) finally comes out and you write that this is not the time or place to provide any explanation, haha. Only says "reflect".

    On a more serious note, you highlight some important issue. The importance of Jerusalem and the Temple Mount, which is possibly what is meant by "house" in the Quran and Abraham and Ishmael supposedly built. As to Petra, I remain skeptical, since the direction of the mosques can be explained in another way. Gibson's work is also received very uncritically by the masses, especially on the internet, and especially by those who do not think Mecca was originally in Western Arabia.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4679 - October 09, 2018, 02:34 PM
    Quote
    You know what? I would not be even remotely surprised if your article(s) and/or book(s) finally comes out and you write that this is not the time or place to provide any explanation, haha. Only says "reflect".


    Haha!

    Quote
    On a more serious note, you highlight some important issue.


    Yes.

    Quote
    The importance of Jerusalem and the Temple Mount, which is possibly what is meant by "house" in the Quran and Abraham and Ishmael supposedly built.


    The place is the place of Abraham and in 637 Ishmael build a house of prayer replacing the destroyed Temple following what they read in Quranic texts.Abraham and Ishmael.

    Quote
    As to Petra, I remain skeptical, since the direction of the mosques can be explained in another way.


    I explain nothing here. I just point that early mosques point to Petra and  that it is the description of Petra which is used by the 9th c. narrative to describe Mecca in the Hijaz.
    It seems to me odd. Why using in the 9th c.  the description of Petra to describe Mecca (in the Hijaz) of the time of the Prophet? Is it related to the direction of early mosques? Yes/no. I ask questions, that's all...
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