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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4260 - September 25, 2018, 06:48 PM

    pre-islamic poetry:
    Quote
      Now I realize that these poems are oral tribal lore that weren't written down until much later, but there are so many of them (all with their own back story), how do Crone et al explain them? Are they all fabricated?


    If it is plausible to compose poetry in 7th C, it is plausible to have it composed in 8th-9 thC. So that is not an issue.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4261 - September 25, 2018, 07:28 PM

    Outside of the Quran and the Hadith, there are a bunch of poems (some of them by pre-Islamic poets)


    There is no pre-Islamic poems.
    Quote
    Now I realize that these poems are oral tribal lore that weren't written down until much later, but there are so many of them (all with their own back story), how do Crone et al explain them? Are they all fabricated? Is that seen as plausible?

     

    They're all attributed to pre-Islamic times whereas they are post Islamic. But one point : there is no plot here. The mass of the people believed that it was  pre-Islamic time poems (apart those who have sold them pretending that there was old poems of Mecca people.) They did not have the instruments to check what was true or not : they believed in the story of the origin of the Quran so they were naturally ready to believe that these poems came from pre-Islamic times.
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4262 - September 25, 2018, 08:21 PM

    It is perfectly possible that he does not know the exact place apart "East" and a name 'Kaba'.

     The important point for its Christian readers at that time that he communicates to them  is that they pray to the East like the Christians, as they confess like them that Jesus is the Messiah. I think Jacob doesn't know any more than that.


    I think you are projecting your own thoughts on the text a little bit too far. Jacob wants to correct a wrong assumption about arabs and JEWS praying to the south. He then quotes different geographical locations by name to show that arabs and JEWS, wherever they are geographically speaking, pray to a specific location for each group. This is his main argument, nothing to do with praying east or professing Jesus.

    Quote
    Without giving any name...


    Given the fact Jacob quotes other geographical locations , the only explanation is that this place is known to his reader. Like I said, we should investigate what was known as the patriarcal place of the arabs at that time.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4263 - September 25, 2018, 09:48 PM

    Quote
    Mentions the Messenger that is described in the Quranic texts, nothing else.

     

    Who is this Messenger of the Quranic text? Is he a real historical figure?

    Quote
    But these personalities never  mentions (in any documents)  that they know the Messenger, that they are "Companions" of any "prophet" and that they come from "Mecca/Medina/Zem-Zem"
    Therefore nothing in these inscription attests what say the narrative about them.
    As I already said, the narrative of the 9th c. attributes to personalities of the past a history that these personalities never corroborate or validate, by allusions in any document (epigraphic, archaeologic or scribal). Ne-ver.
    Therefore these inscription attest of nothing about the origin of the Quranic text, and do not attest (at all) the existence of a "prophet". The only reason they mention a "messenger" is the Quranic texts.


    Yes, the inscription is in line with reports from later sources placing the three individual mention in the inscription in Jerusalem at that time.

    No need for them to be from Mecca. Not my point.

    As for the Messenger mentioned,  I personally believe - and find it plausible - the inscription does refer to Muhammad by Messenger due to the Islamic nature of the formula. It is not archaic as the other sources and inscriptions we have and thus is reasonable that one should read it in the traditional sense, especially since some companions are mentioned as well. It is very specific. This is one interpretation. I am not dogmatic on it. Another interpretation could be true as well.

    Quote
    I do get your point. If all these inscriptions are genuine, it proves that a big part of the islamic tradition is true. Upto now, revisionists pointed out that there was ZERO proof that even these first caliphs ever existed. Now we are getting proof that even the minor figures mentioned in the tradition actually existed and personally inscribed their names  in the middle of the desert somewhere in KSA.

    The Jerusalem inscription you mention seems quite doubtful. Legibility and dating are highly questionable I have read.


    One must be cautious in regards to these inscriptions. They could be spurious or they could be genuine. One must investigate scientifically and objectively. One cannot reject them because the narrative must be a priori untrue, nor can one accept them because they are in line with the narrative either.

    Crone believed the caliphs existed. Only Inarah types reject their historicity.

    If these inscriptions are true, then they are additional supports for parts of the narrative.


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4264 - September 25, 2018, 11:11 PM

    I think you are projecting your own thoughts on the text a little bit too far. Jacob wants to correct a wrong assumption about arabs and JEWS praying to the south.

    1/ Lol!
    2/ South from Syria, ("So from all this it is clear that it is not to the south that the Jews and Mahgraye here in the regions of Syria pray") but what part? Jordan?
    3/ What is curious is  to talk about the Jews, he talks as well of the Mahgraye to say that both pray to the East :
    Quote
    The Jews who live in Egypt, as likewise the Mahgraye there, as I saw with my own eyes and will now set out for you, prayed to the east, and still do, both peoples - the Jews towards Jerusalem, and the Mahgraye towards the Ka'ba


    In Egypt then, all pray to the East (Jews, Christians, Mahgraye).
    Then the question is why he is talking of the Mahgraye whereas he starts like this :"For it is not to the south that the Jews pray (sagdin); nor for that matter do the Mahgraye." What's the point to talk of them?

    Quote
    He then quotes different geographical locations by name to show that arabs and JEWS, wherever they are geographically speaking, pray to a specific location for each group. This is his main argument, nothing to do with praying east or professing Jesus.

    Jacob associates the Jews and the Mahgraye praying always in the same direction wherever they are, but to a place with different names Kaba and Jerusalem as if it was finally the same place. Is it? I don't know. And frankly I do not care because I do not need Jacob to know that  at that time Kaba does not exist especially for Christians and without doubt for Mahgraye themselves... Jacob (d.708) talks about Kaba as if all ( and especially him) knew what it was and where it was at his time. Nobody knew before 708 what is was and where it was, whereas all knew where was Jerusalem. All. Moreover he is not able to give a place for Kaba.

    Quote
    Given the fact Jacob quotes other geographical locations , the only explanation is that this place is known to his reader. Like I said, we should investigate what was known as the patriarcal place of the arabs at that time.


    1/ Nope, not necessarily. He does not give any place to Kaba, whereas everybody knows where is Jerusalem... and I repeat : Jacob associates the Jews and the Mahgraye praying always in the same direction wherever they are, but to a place with different names Kaba and Jerusalem as if it was finally the same place. Is it? I don't know.
    2/ You have some contemporary texts which give a place which seems to be Iraq. Academia is you friend for this.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4265 - September 26, 2018, 07:01 AM

    Mahgraye,

    Jerusalem inscription: can you link to the description of the inscription you are referring to?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4266 - September 26, 2018, 08:59 AM

    Altara,

    Jacob of Edessa's text is from around 700 CE. Maybe it is useful to have a look at Gibson's table of early mosques. http://thesacredcity.ca/QiblaData.html For that era we have structures that are reliably dated and have non-Mecca orientations. Do these structures point to Jerusalem?

    No
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4267 - September 26, 2018, 09:22 AM

    Jacob associates the Jews and the Mahgraye praying always in the same direction wherever they are, but to a place with different names Kaba and Jerusalem as if it was finally the same place. Is it? I don't know.

    It's seems I'm clear... Am I?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4268 - September 26, 2018, 09:25 AM

    Alatara,

    Jacob's text indicates that the praying focus of both Jews and Maggrayes was close enough to pray in the same direction. Early mosques indicate that muslim focus  was not Jerusalem or not only Jerusalem.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4269 - September 26, 2018, 09:36 AM

    Quote
    Jacob's text indicates that the praying focus of both Jews and Maggrayes was close enough to pray in the same direction.


    Nope, he does not say that. He says always in the same direction wherever they are, that's all.
    It is not what you say... you add  "was close enough" : you extrapolates...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4270 - September 26, 2018, 09:55 AM

    Altara,

    I didnt say Jacob said that, his exposé allows "different places close to each other theory".
     How else would you explain the non-Jerusalem direction of early mosques?
    Without that archeological evidence, I would be inclined to agree with you, now I know Jerusalem as Kaba location is unlikely.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4271 - September 26, 2018, 11:16 AM

    Quote
    How else would you explain the non-Jerusalem direction of early mosques?

    This topic is not related (for me ...) to what states Jacob and is not explicable by his text.
    What I think in fact is : it appears that Jacob heard from the Mahgraye that they pray to "Kaba". It appears that Jacob ascertain that when they pray to Kaba fom Egypt (Alexandria) they pray to the same direction of the Jews. The same. Therefore Jerusalem. He adds that always, I repeat, always, wherever they are,  the Mahgraye pray in the same direction of the Jews. Always. This direction is for them "Kaba". One sole same direction : two names.
    It seems to me bizarre. Then I pose the question : is Kaba in fact Jerusalem?
    Possibly.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4272 - September 26, 2018, 11:45 AM

    Quote
    So from all this it is clear that it is not to the south that the Jews and Mahgraye here in the regions of Syria pray, but towards Jerusalem or Kʿabah, the patriarchial places of their races


    There indeed is something with "south". Te early mosques in the Negev are directed to nowhere seemingly  but all about South. If Jerusalem was the focus, they should have been directed North.  I think there was quite a lot of chaos the first century. Maybe the Negev-people just continued their pre-islamic Nabatean(?) customs and kept the South direction for something they viewed as important?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4273 - September 26, 2018, 12:11 PM

    Quote
    There indeed is something with "south".


    Yes. But from where? "South", that means nothing in itself.

    Quote
    I think there was quite a lot of chaos the first century.


    That is the reason of the Jacob's text. Which, in fact, does not solve anything. Apart maybe, adding even more problems to the narrative regarding its affirmation about Mecca in the "Hijaz".
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4274 - September 26, 2018, 12:38 PM


    Who is this Messenger of the Quranic text? Is he a real historical figure? ..........

    why only one messenger??  there are 114 chapters with over 6300 verses .,  well there could be MANY MESSENGERS TO THAT QURANIC TEXT OF  THAT TIME .,

    Who knows  Mahgraye .. allalh/god knows the best ..,  All those  Quranic messengers  could be different  Juices who moved in to Islam ...  Orange Juice ...Apple juice ...Grape juice... Grape fruit  juice..............Ibn Juice...Pagan juice.. hasidic juice ..Moroccan Juice.....Mountain juice..  ... Baghdadi juice..............Berber juice...  Juicy Juice Islam

    oh well let me watch this

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_N52vkK9o98

     Tariq Ali .... Tariq Ali ... dear Tariq Ali ..  you stuck in the ISLAMIC past .. you got to move on man........


    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4275 - September 26, 2018, 12:39 PM

    2/ South from Syria, ("So from all this it is clear that it is not to the south that the Jews and Mahgraye here in the regions of Syria pray") but what part? Jordan?


    Nope. South from north of Syria


    Quote
    Then the question is why he is talking of the Mahgraye whereas he starts like this :"For it is not to the south that the Jews pray (sagdin); nor for that matter do the Mahgraye." What's the point to talk of them?


    Where Jews and Maghraye allies or praying together or is this an issue because the Christians are the only ones who don't pray towards the same place?

    Quote
    1/ Nope, not necessarily. He does not give any place to Kaba, whereas everybody knows where is Jerusalem... and I repeat : Jacob associates the Jews and the Mahgraye praying always in the same direction wherever they are, but to a place with different names Kaba and Jerusalem as if it was finally the same place. Is it? I don't know.


    I am assuming they are different places, as there are called each ones by their names,  and that the kaaba is known to the readers and by the author ; it would seem weird that, otherwise, if the kaaba was located at an unknwn place, we would have been given more details given that the text here deals with geographical locations.

    Quote
    And frankly I do not care because I do not need Jacob to know that  at that time Kaba does not exist especially for Christians and without doubt for Mahgraye themselves... Jacob (d.708) talks about Kaba as if all ( and especially him) knew what it was and where it was at his time. Nobody knew before 708


    How do you know that ?

    Quote
    2/ You have some contemporary texts which give a place which seems to be Iraq. Academia is you friend for this.


    I guess you are referring to the Khuzistan Chronicle. The text doesn't mean that it is somewhere in Iraq from memory but I will read it again.






  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4276 - September 26, 2018, 12:45 PM

    Who has checked out Gibson's Qibla list?

    http://thesacredcity.ca/QiblaData.html

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4277 - September 26, 2018, 12:46 PM

    There indeed is something with "south". Te early mosques in the Negev are directed to nowhere seemingly  but all about South. If Jerusalem was the focus, they should have been directed North.  I think there was quite a lot of chaos the first century. Maybe the Negev-people just continued their pre-islamic Nabatean(?) customs and kept the South direction for something they viewed as important?


    The regions of Syria here for Jacob of EDESSA and the guy he writes to, John of LITARBA, are located north of Syria so praying towards Jerusalem, Mecca or Jordan or Etchiopia will be praying south.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4278 - September 26, 2018, 01:26 PM


    Where Jews and Maghraye allies or praying together or is this an issue because the Christians are the only ones who don't pray towards the same place?


    Jacob does not say where is the Kaba. Never. He says that Jews pray to Jerusalem and Maghraye pray like the Jews wherever they are.

    Quote
    I am assuming they are different places, as there are called each ones by their names,  


    What you assume is not in the text as you do not know where Kaba is. One place can have two names for different people.  

    Quote
    and that the kaaba is known to the readers and by the author

     

    Again, you extrapolates naively and you build a reasoning on this extrapolation. It is not because you write a name (Kaba) that you know where it is, what it is, etc. The only thing that Jacob knows verily is the direction of  prayer of the Jews and the Maghraye are always the same. That is all.

    Quote
    ; it would seem weird that, otherwise, if the kaaba was located at an unknwn place, we would have been given more details given that the text here deals with geographical locations.  


    Again you extrapolate : "we would, we should, I know what Jacob knows".  I'm sorry Marc, you know nothing of what Jacob knows. Nothing. You only know that he knows the name "Kaba" that's all. He gives you (us) nothing about it. No-thing.

    Quote
    we would have been given more details given that the text here deals with geographical locations

     
    The only place location he gives is Jerusalem. That is all. The text here deals with ONE geographical location  : Jerusalem.

    Quote
    How do you know that ?


    Because there is no contemporary Muslims or non Muslims sources agree with each other to tell us clearly where is "Mecca/Medina/Kaba Zem-Zem"

    Quote
    I guess you are referring to the Khuzistan Chronicle. The text doesn't mean that it is somewhere in Iraq from memory but I will read it again.


    As this topic (Jacob text) is, for me, wasting my time, I do not remember if the  Khuzistan Chronicle talk about somethin interesting , apart a Dome of Abraham of the Maghraye/Tayyaye/Saracens/Ishmaelites, etc. Thanks to tell us.






  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4279 - September 26, 2018, 04:51 PM

    Khuzistan Chronicle

    Regarding the dome of Abraham, we have been unable to discover what it is except that, because the blessed Abraham grew rich in property and wanted to get away from the envy of the Canaanites, he chose to live in the distant and spacious parts of the desert. Since he lived in tents, he built that place for the worship of God and for the offering of sacrifices. It took its present name from what it had been, since the memory of the place was preserved with the generations of their race. Indeed, it was no new thing for the Arabs to worship there, but goes back to antiquity, to their early days, in that they show honour to the father of the head of their people.

    Hasor, which scripture calls « head of the kingdoms » (Joshua 11 :10), belongs to the Arabs, while Medina is named after Midian, Abraham’s fourth son by Qetura; it is also called Yathrib. And Dumat Jandal [belongs to them], and the territory of the Hagaraye, which is rich in water, palm trees and fortified buildings. The territory of Hatta, situated by the sea in the vicinity of the islands of Qatar, is rich in the same way; it is also thickly vegetated with various kinds of plants. The region of Mazon also resembles it; it too lies by the sea and comprises an area of more than 100 parasangs. So [belongs to them] too the territory of Yamama, in the middle of the desert, and the territory of ‘fawf, and the city of Hira, which was the seat of king Mundar, surnamed the « warrior; » he was sixth in the line of the lshmaelite kings.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4280 - September 26, 2018, 06:09 PM

    Kaba,

    Strange that not more was known about core early islamic beliefs end 7th C.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4281 - September 26, 2018, 06:23 PM

    Khuzistan Chronicle

    Regarding the dome of Abraham, we have been unable to discover what it is except that, because the blessed Abraham grew rich in property and wanted to get away from the envy of the Canaanites, he chose to live in the distant and spacious parts of the desert. Since he lived in tents, he built that place for the worship of God and for the offering of sacrifices. It took its present name from what it had been, since the memory of the place was preserved with the generations of their race. Indeed, it was no new thing for the Arabs to worship there, but goes back to antiquity, to their early days, in that they show honour to the father of the head of their people.

    Hasor, which scripture calls « head of the kingdoms » (Joshua 11 :10), belongs to the Arabs, while Medina is named after Midian, Abraham’s fourth son by Qetura; it is also called Yathrib. And Dumat Jandal [belongs to them], and the territory of the Hagaraye, which is rich in water, palm trees and fortified buildings. The territory of Hatta, situated by the sea in the vicinity of the islands of Qatar, is rich in the same way; it is also thickly vegetated with various kinds of plants. The region of Mazon also resembles it; it too lies by the sea and comprises an area of more than 100 parasangs. So [belongs to them] too the territory of Yamama, in the middle of the desert, and the territory of ‘fawf, and the city of Hira, which was the seat of king Mundar, surnamed the « warrior; » he was sixth in the line of the lshmaelite kings.



    Because there is no contemporary Muslims or non Muslims sources agree with each other to tell us clearly where is "Mecca/Medina/Kaba Zem-Zem"
    I was optimistic lol!
    Khuzistan Chronicle :

    Regarding the dome of Abraham, we have been unable to discover what it is

    All is said and this text is contemporary to Jacob (d.708) even before I think. So yes, I think Jacob knew the name  "Kaba" but where and what it was, he knew nothing like the Maghraye who pray, in Alexandria to the East, like the Jews.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4282 - September 26, 2018, 10:21 PM

    I will give you the Islamic  stories after the death of Prophet of Islam in the year 632., but you tell me Islamic stories that come out  of classical Islamic history  that you think are true from the Birth of Prophet of Islam to his death ..


    571  552: Birth of the Holy Prophet. Year of the Elephant. Invasion of Makkah Arabia by Abraha the Viceroy of Yemen, his retreat.
    577: The Holy Prophet visits Madina with his mother. Death of his mother.
    580: Death of Abdul Muttalib, the grandfather of the Holy Prophet.
    583: The Holy Prophet's journey to Syria in the company of his uncle Abu Talib. His meeting with the monk Bahira at Bisra who foretells of his prophethood.
    586: The Holy Prophet participates in the war of Fijar.
    591: The Holy Prophet becomes an active member of "Hilful Fudul", a league for the relief of the distressed.
    594: The Holy Prophet becomes the Manager of the business of Lady Khadija, and leads her trade caravan to Syria and back.
    595: The Holy Prophet marries Hadrat Khadija. Seventh century
    605: The Holy Prophet arbitrates in a dispute among the Quraish about the placing of the Black Stone in the Kaaba.


    610: The first revelation in the cave at Mt. Hira. The Holy Prophet is commissioned as the Messenger of God.  Heraclius ascend to power
    613: Declaration at Mt. Sara inviting the general public to Islam.
    614: Invitation to the Hashimites to accept Islam. Persian troops take Jerusalem and take the Holy Cross to Persia
    615: Persecution of the Muslims by the Quraish. A party of Muslims leaves for Abyssinia. Full
    616: Second Hijrah to Abysinnia. Conquest
    617: Social boycott of the Hashimites and the Holy Prophet by the Quraish. The Hashimites are shut up in a glen outside Makkah. of
    619: Lifting of the boycott. Deaths of Abu Talib and Hadrat Khadija. Year of sorrow. Palestine
    620: Journey to Taif. Ascension to the heavensand
    621: First pledge at Aqaba. Egypt by Sassanian forces


    622: Second pledge at Aqaba. The Holy Prophet and the Muslims migrate to Yathrib.  Heraclius train his troops for 3 months during the summler of 622 then lands a first victory against Persian troops
    623: Nakhla expedition.
    624: Battle of Badr. Expulsion of the Bani Qainuqa Jews from Madina.  Heraclius goes back to war against Persia
    625: Battle of Uhud. Massacre of 70 Muslims at Bir Mauna. Expulsion of Banu Nadir Jews from Madina. Second expedition of Badr.  Byzantine army retreats
    626: Expedition of Banu Mustaliq.
    627: Battle of the Trench. Expulsion of Banu Quraiza Jews.  Battle of Ninive ; Persian army is anihilated ; Siege of Ctesiphon
    628: Truce of Hudaibiya. Expedition to Khyber. The Holy Prophet addresses letters to various heads of states.  Byzantine victory over the Persian empire ; peace treaty with Kavadh II
    Battle of Ubullah ; beginning of the Sassanian- arab war

    628: Deputation from al-Muqawqis an egyptian governor who brings Māriyah and her sister Sīrīn to be given to Muhammad,   Murder of Chosroes II whose wives were called Māriyah and Sīrīn
    629: The Holy Prophet performs the pilgrimage at Makkah. Expedition to Muta (Romans).
    630: Conquest of Makkah. Battles of Hunsin, Auras, and Taif. Heraclius bring back the Cross to Jerusalem
    631: Expedition to Tabuk. Year of Deputations.
    632: Farewell pilgrimage at Makkah.
    632: Death of the Holy Prophet

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4283 - September 26, 2018, 11:56 PM

    Marijn van Putten & Philip W. Strokes - “The Case in Qurˀānic Consonantal Text”
    https://www.facebook.com/download/preview/799148640444870

    Quote
    The nature of the language underlying the Qurˀānic Consonantal Text (QCT) has been a topic of scholarly discussion for well over a hundred years. The traditional position is that this language was essentially identical to that of the pre-Islamic poetry. The mismatch between the language of the reading traditions and the orthography has normally been explained as the result of orthographic conventions such as ‘pausal spelling’. A minority of scholars have challenged this view, suggesting instead that the Qurˀān was originally delivered in a local dialect and only subsequently brought in line with Classical Arabic. Neither permutation of these two positions has been based on the one part of the Qurˀānic text that can, with certainty, be dated back to the early Islamic period, the Qurˀānic Consonantal Text. This paper examines the nominal case system of Qurˀānic Arabic. Instead of relying on traditions that developed a century or more after the original composition of the Qurˀān, we rely primarily on the QCT itself, paying special attention to implications of internal rhyme schemata, as well as patterns in the orthography. We will show, based on internal data supported by, but not dependent upon, the orthography that the language behind the QCT possessed a functional but reduced case system, in which cases marked by long vowels were retained, whereas those marked by short vowels were mostly lost. A place where the short case vowel appear to have been retained is in construct. An examination of early Qurˀānic manuscripts suggests that even in this position case distinction was already in the process of breaking down

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4284 - September 27, 2018, 12:04 AM

    Marc S  takes SOME Islamic history and deletes ISLAM, MUHAMMAD, MECCA from All Islamic history
    571  552: Birth of the Holy Prophet. Year of the Elephant. Invasion of Makkah Arabia by Abraha the Viceroy of Yemen, his retreat.
    577: The Holy Prophet visits Madina with his mother. Death of his mother.
    580: Death of Abdul Muttalib, the grandfather of the Holy Prophet.
    583: The Holy Prophet's journey to Syria in the company of his uncle Abu Talib. His meeting with the monk Bahira at Bisra who foretells of his prophethood.
    586: The Holy Prophet participates in the war of Fijar.
    591: The Holy Prophet becomes an active member of "Hilful Fudul", a league for the relief of the distressed.
    594: The Holy Prophet becomes the Manager of the business of Lady Khadija, and leads her trade caravan to Syria and back.
    595: The Holy Prophet marries Hadrat Khadija. Seventh century
    605: The Holy Prophet arbitrates in a dispute among the Quraish about the placing of the Black Stone in the Kaaba.


    610: The first revelation in the cave at Mt. Hira. The Holy Prophet is commissioned as the Messenger of God.  Heraclius ascend to power
    613: Declaration at Mt. Sara inviting the general public to Islam.
    614: Invitation to the Hashimites to accept Islam. Persian troops take Jerusalem and take the Holy Cross to Persia
    615: Persecution of the Muslims by the Quraish. A party of Muslims leaves for Abyssinia. Full
    616: Second Hijrah to Abysinnia. Conquest
    617: Social boycott of the Hashimites and the Holy Prophet by the Quraish. The Hashimites are shut up in a glen outside Makkah. of
    619: Lifting of the boycott. Deaths of Abu Talib and Hadrat Khadija. Year of sorrow. Palestine
    620: Journey to Taif. Ascension to the heavens.  and
    621: First pledge at Aqaba. Egypt by Sassanian forces


    622: Second pledge at Aqaba. The Holy Prophet and the Muslims migrate to Yathrib.  Heraclius train his troops for 3 months during the summler of 622 then lands a first victory against Persian troops
    623: Nakhla expedition.
    624: Battle of Badr. Expulsion of the Bani Qainuqa Jews from Madina.  Heraclius goes back to war against Persia
    625: Battle of Uhud. Massacre of 70 Muslims at Bir Mauna. Expulsion of Banu Nadir Jews from Madina. Second expedition of Badr.  Byzantine army retreats
    626: Expedition of Banu Mustaliq.
    627: Battle of the Trench. Expulsion of Banu Quraiza Jews.  Battle of Ninive ; Persian army is anihilated ; Siege of Ctesiphon
    628: Truce of Hudaibiya. Expedition to Khyber. The Holy Prophet addresses letters to various heads of states.  Byzantine victory over the Persian empire ; peace treaty with Kavadh II
    Battle of Ubullah ; beginning of the Sassanian- arab war

    628: Deputation from al-Muqawqis an egyptian governor who brings Māriyah and her sister Sīrīn to be given to Muhammad,  Murder of Chosroes II whose wives were called Māriyah and Sīrīn
    629: The Holy Prophet performs the pilgrimage at Makkah. Expedition to Muta (Romans).
    630: Conquest of Makkah. Battles of Hunsin, Auras, and Taif. Heraclius bring back the Cross to Jerusalem
    631: Expedition to Tabuk. Year of Deputations.
    632: Farewell pilgrimage at Makkah.
    632: Death of the Holy Prophet



    Helooooo Marc S.. you too???  No Prophet No Mecca No Madina and No Zamzam?? then what is Islam? and what is  Islamic tradition??

    And why write this
    Muslim tradition is telling us that Abbassids caliphs contrary to their Umayyads counterparts were doing frequent pilgrimages to Mecca and Medina and spent huge amount of money to maintain and improve those 2 towns. Scholars like Azraqi and Tabari tell us about numerous stories on those building works by the Abbassids. Among those, Harun al-Rashid (764-809) and his wife Zubayda are specially brought into the limelight (The Hajj : The Muslim Pilgrimage to Mecca and the Holy Places , F.E. Peters).

    are you telling me all that "The Hajj : The Muslim Pilgrimage to Mecca and the Holy Places , F.E. Peters" history  IS "HARRY POTTER ISLAM"??

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4285 - September 27, 2018, 12:10 AM

    Yeezevee - As I have not read Peter's book, I can't comment on it, but I can you tell this: Mecca, as it is today, was already established by the time of Ibn al-Zubayr. I could be wrong, but that much seems to be undisputed and hardly controversial, even among revisionists. Ergo, Mecca in the Hijaz in Western Arabia (i.e., today's Saudi Arabia) was the place of pilgrimage during the reign of Abbasids. So, no, the Muslim tradition on this point is not mere stories or "Harry Potter Islam", as you put it.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4286 - September 27, 2018, 12:36 AM

    Yeezevee - As I have not read Peter's book, I can't comment on it, but I can you tell this: Mecca, as it is today, was already established by the time of Ibn al-Zubayr. I could be wrong, but that much seems to be undisputed and hardly controversial, even among revisionists. Ergo, Mecca in the Hijaz in Western Arabia (i.e., today's Saudi Arabia) was the place of pilgrimage during the reign of Abbasids. So, no, the Muslim tradition on this point is not mere stories or "Harry Potter Islam", as you put it.

    hmm.. so  Mahgraye  YOU COULD BE WRONG  but what you say is undisputed??

    So who is Ibn al-Zubayr??  Some Ibn Jew of Arabia  and Prophet of Islam's father in-law's  grand son ??

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4287 - September 27, 2018, 12:39 AM

    He was a Caliph.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4288 - September 27, 2018, 01:14 AM

    He was a Caliph.

    that was not the point ..  the point is...

    what was his ((Ibn al-Zubayr..............the Ibn Jew)) relationship with prophet of Islam??  ...The Prophet who grew up in Mecca ..Madina.. drinking Zam zam water "according to you guys THE EARLY ISLAM HISTORIANS"

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4289 - September 27, 2018, 01:18 AM

    He was the nephew of his wife, Aisha.
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