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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2100 - May 30, 2018, 06:57 PM

    Quote
    Buy you do think that Yathrib existed?  Can you give me some sources for your claims about Yathrib/Medina? The caravans, Jewish settlements, everything.


    The traditional account have a claim about Mecca/Medina. I'm checking them. None historical sources validate theses statements. They are, considering the sources, not plausible.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2101 - May 30, 2018, 07:13 PM

    Quote
    The traditional account have a claim about Mecca/Medina. I'm checking them. None historical sources validate theses statements. They are, considering the sources, not plausible.


    Sure. I am only asking for you sources in support of your observation. Could you please provide them so I also can take a look at them? For instance, what historical sources do not validate the traditional account about Medina?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2102 - May 30, 2018, 08:48 PM

    It may work with you friends, but not with me dear Magraye.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2103 - May 30, 2018, 08:58 PM

    Quote
    It may work with you friends, but not with me dear Mahgraye.


    Sorry, what? I really did not understand. What do you mean? I am only asking for your sources.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2104 - May 30, 2018, 11:27 PM

    About what the Didascaly describes as the "prophet"  I wrote  responding to Magraye :
    It is then speculative theology ; nothing else. Not taken from the Quran, but from Christian creeds and scriptures (Book of Revelation). Same for Muḥammad  with the Keys to Paradise, not in the Quran. The Keys to Paradise is a Christian concept. Nothing to see with Islam, Kaba, Zem Zem, Abu Bakr (in the Cave !) the Companions, etc.

    Here's the abstract of an interesting  paper ; "Jesus as Eschatological Saviour in Islam: An Example of the ‘Positive’ Apologetic Interpretation of the Christian Apocalyptic Texts in an Islamic Messianic Milieu*"

    Abstract
    This paper discusses the interpretation of the Christian apocalyptic texts, such as the Revelation of St John and the pseudo-Clementine Book of the Rolls, by Faḍl Allāh Astarābādī (d. 796/1394), the founder of a mystical and messianic movement which was influential in medieval Iran and Anatolia. This interpretation can be situated within the tradition of ‘positive’ Muslim hermeneutics of the Christian and Jewish scriptures which was particularly developed in Shīʿī and especially Ismāʿīlī circles. Faḍl Allāh incorporates the Christian apocalyptic texts into an Islamic eschatological context, combining them with Qurʾān and ḥadīṯ material. Faḍl Allāh’s hermeneutical enterprise, focused on the figure of Jesus, produces an original version of Islamic myths regarding the eschatological Saviour.

    https://www.academia.edu/36746238/_Jesus_as_Eschatological_Saviour_in_Islam_An_Example_of_the_Positive_Apologetic_Interpretation_of_the_Christian_Apocalyptic_Texts_in_an_Islamic_Messianic_Milieu_
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2105 - May 30, 2018, 11:35 PM

    Does this discuss Medina? I would also appreciate sources for the Medina issue.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2106 - May 31, 2018, 01:09 AM

    My very last statements about these topics.
    "Medina"  as such did not exist in any map before islam. "Yathrib"  as "Lathrippa" in the  peninsula did exist and is a kind of  caravansary totally unknown as a scribal place, it is more or less a swamp where there is water for local camels and caravan from the first to the 4th century. After, the commerce is by the Red Sea (from Egypt Berenice/Myos Hormos). There is no Jewish settlements attested in the entire area. No Jews (or Roman) sources before Islam have the knowledge of Jews communities in the '"Hijaz". There's nothing. Therefore for all theses reasons, the story recounted by the traditional account about Yathrib the city of the "prophet" is not plausible.
    You have to check all what I said and you'll see that my affirmations are validated by the sources and scholars (Crone, Gallez, Gibson, the Red Sea commerce) go to academia and search the papers related to these topics.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2107 - May 31, 2018, 03:38 AM

    Not sure what to search for. Exact reference would be helpful, but thanks anyways.

    Luxenberg, Ohlig, and Popp are well known for arguing that Muhammad is a Christological title for Jesus. Do you have any criticism of this hypothesis? I am currently writing something on it, so any new information would be much appreciated.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2108 - May 31, 2018, 09:57 AM

    Quote
    Luxenberg, Ohlig, and Popp are well known for arguing that Muhammad is a Christological title for Jesus.


    Why do they argue that ?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2109 - May 31, 2018, 10:45 AM

    Here is how Markus Gross summarizes their arguments:

    Quote
    Karl-Heinz Ohlig, the initiator of Inârah, argues that the theology in the Qurʾān and its view of Jesus – not as the son of God, but only as a messenger (rasūl), a servant of God (ʿabd allāh), and a praised one (muḥammad) – is much older than the concept of Trinity. This concept goes back to the First Council of Nicaea in 325 CE. So the Qurʾān can be interpreted as defending the old view against the modern Western/Hellenistic interpretation of Jesus as son of God. According to the Nicaean Creed, Jesus is of the same substance (“homo-ousios”) as opposed to a like substance (“homoi-ousios”) as God, who was thus first seen as a binitarian (and only with later Councils as a trinitarian) deity. These tenets were already strictly rejected by the ancient Syrian theologians such as Aphrahat (Bruns 1991), as well as later by the Qurʾān. Together with Luxenberg, but for different reasons, Ohlig opines that muḥammad – “the praised one”– is originally only an epithet of Jesus. If understood in this way, the sentence from the shahādamuḥammad rasūl Allāh” does not mean “and Muḥammad is the Messenger of God,” but “praised be the Messenger of God.” That such a meaning is in accordance with Arabic grammar can be seen when we take the well-known phrase from Christian liturgy (Mt 23:39): mubārakun al-ʾātī bi-smi-al-rabb (“benedictus qui venit in nomine domine,” Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord”). Mubārak (“the blessed one”) and muḥammad (“the praised one”) can be considered synonyms, but also the second part of the sentence, “he that cometh in the name of the Lord” is next to synonymous to “he is the Messenger of God,” which would make the second part of the shahāda a quotation from the Bible.

    Moreover, a short perusal of the coin images examined by Volker Popp shows that early Islamic coins are full of Christian symbols, among others, the cross. For Ohlig, the split between Christianity and Islam, i.e., the moment in history when they were felt to be two antagonizing religions, was as late as the year 800 or even later. Therefore we have “Christian” symbols on the oldest coins, but it was not the post-Nicean Trinitarian Christianity we know, but a kind of Christianity which had a concept of Jesus much like that of Islam.


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2110 - May 31, 2018, 04:01 PM

    Ohlig statements are confused ...we sort it out...
     Yes "Muḥammad"  can be a a qualifier for anyone : Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Hud, Salih, etc.
    “muḥammad rasūl Allāh” >>>“praised be the Messenger of God.” That such a meaning is in accordance with Arabic grammar can be seen when we take the well-known phrase from Christian liturgy (Mt 23:39): mubārakun al-ʾātī bi-smi-al-rabb (“benedictus qui venit in nomine domine,” Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord”). Mubārak (“the blessed one”) and muḥammad (“the praised one”) can be considered synonyms, but also the second part of the sentence, “he that cometh in the name of the Lord” is next to synonymous to “he is the Messenger of God,” which would make the second part of the shahāda a quotation from the Bible.
    Yes, it is scientifically plausible. Manfred Kropp arrives to the same conclusion without the use of the  shahada and in taking another example : the inscription of the Dome of the Rock :

    Quote
    (S)bi-smi llaahi r-raHmaani r-raHiimi laa ilaaha ill.aa llaahu  waHda-huu
    laa shariika la-huu la-huu l-mulku wa-la-huu 1-Hamdu yuHyii wa-yumiitu wa-huwa  calaa kulli shaycin qadiir. MuHammadun cabdu  llaahi wa-rasuulu-huu


    MuHammadun cabdu  llaahi wa-rasuulu-huu : can be scientifically  translated as :

    Praised be the servant of Allah and his apostle
    Which person is it?
    Quote
    (SE)cinna  llaaha wa-malaacikatu-huu yuSalluuna  calaa n-nabiiyi.
    yaa-ayyu-haa lladhiina caamanuu Salluu calay-hi i wa-sallimuu tasliimaa Sallaa llaahu calay-hii
    wa-s-salaamun calay-hii wa-raHmatu Uaahi.
    yaa-ahla 1-kitaabi laa taGluu fii diini-kum. Allah and his angels pray on the prophet

     (remark the use of nabi and not rasul...)
    Which person is it?
    Does the rest of the text identify him?
    Quote
    yaa-ahla 1-kitaabi laa taGluu fii diini-kum


    This phrase show that the text is dealing with Christian thing and not ("muslim")
    It's Jesus the text is talking about since the beginning but "Jesus" according to the Quranic idea : rasul/prophet  who is seen erroneously by  the Christian theology :
    Quote
    yaa-ahla 1-kitaabi laa taGluu fii diini-kum

     as an exaggeration by the Quranic theology.

    The rest of the text confirms this comprehension :

    Quote
    (E)wa-laa taquuluu  Calaa llaahi illaa 1-Haqqa!
    cinna-maa 1-masiiHu Ciisaa bnu Maryama rasuulu llaahi wa-kalimatu-huu calqaa-haa cilaa  Ma1yama wa-muHun min-huu. Say nothing about Allah but the truth! The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, is only the Apostle of Allah.

     

    It's about Jesus and no one else.

    Then it is perfectly (and reasonably) plausible that  "MuHammadun" in this inscription qualifies Jesus. Kropp here is perfectly right ; ask around you if Manfred Kropp is taken seriously in the field (yawn...)

    Dear Maghraye, as I already said many times here. the prophet "Muhammad" do not exist. Of course, you're wondering how I arrive to that conclusion. I understand very well your interrogations, much more than you think. However you easily comprehend that this place cannot be the place where things can be said. It can be the place to enlighten certain notions. I hope I have responded to some.



  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2111 - May 31, 2018, 05:00 PM

    Thanks for responding.

    You are certainly right in that their hypothesis is possible, but I am yet to be convinced. There are not simple matters, so it is hard to arrive at a certain conclusion, especially considering the several competing theories.

    Yes, Manfred Kropp is taken very seriously. Where does Kropp say Muhammad is qualifies as Jesus? A reference would be very helpful.

    I am genuinely interested in how you arrive at your conclusion(s), yes. But I would not describe my questions as interrogations, haha. Sounds very negative. Forums are, as you said, not the best place to discuss the issues. Is there some way we can get in contact outside this forum? And, yes, you have clarified some things and hopefully you will do so even more in the future.

    I have written a rebuttal of this hypothesis and would appreciate you could take a look at it for suggestions and corrections.

     



  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2112 - May 31, 2018, 05:56 PM

    .I hope I do not interrupt your debate.
    What do think about this new inscription? Is it a manifestation of "shirk"?

     "New inscription found from the year 80 Hijra. It is a prayer to God seeking His blessings and mercy through the Prophet Muhammad.

    “O God send blessings upon the Prophet Muhammad and accept his intercession for his community and have mercy upon us through him in the hereafter just as You have mercy upon us through him in this world.”

    “اللهم صلي على محمد النبي وتقبل شفاعته في أمته
    وارحمنا به في الآخرة كما رحمتنا به في الدنيا
    وكتب بكر بن أبي بكرة الأسلمي تمام سنة ثمانين .
    والله تعالى أعلم بالصواب”
    ( A Facebook friend sent me this)


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2113 - May 31, 2018, 06:56 PM

    I already posted this inscription in the group. There is nothing special about it. Similar statements are already found on the Dome of the Rock.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2114 - May 31, 2018, 08:15 PM

    Thanks for responding.

    You are certainly right in that their hypothesis is possible, but I am yet to be convinced.


    There's an issue there. I do not want to "convince" you. I just want you comprehend that what you believe
    is not exact. And that the exactitude has to be search outside (all) the traditional account. That's all.

    There are not simple matters, so it is hard to arrive at a certain conclusion, especially considering the several competing theories.


    For this topic there's only two : Jesus as Praised be the servant of Allah and his apostle or "Muhammad" (Abraham in the Kaba, Zem Zem, , Kahlid b. al Walid,  Caliph Utman, Caliph Umar, et al.)

    Yes, Manfred Kropp is taken very seriously. Where does Kropp say Muhammad is qualifies as Jesus? A reference would be very helpful.


    1/Good.
    2/But remember : It is in French; speaking by a German guy : to have the all sequence get to 25min. The specific passage is from 45min : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiKd_IsX0Yw&list=PLrxfWBuFyjdWjgPAbxIlDFWVZcod7q_4t&index=3
    I am genuinely interested in how you arrive at your conclusion(s), yes. But I would not describe my questions as interrogations, haha. Sounds very negative. Forums are, as you said, not the best place to discuss the issues. Is there some way we can get in contact outside this forum? And, yes, you have clarified some things and hopefully you will do so even more in the future..


    1/In my mind "interrogation" is not negative.
    2/As I already said many times here. the prophet "Muhammad" do not exist. Of course, you're wondering how I arrive to that conclusion. I have already said some steps in this thread about that : no Mecca/Medina (and) Jewish communities) as described by the traditional account before islam by extra sources in the "Hijaz". No attestation  (including the Didascaly  which is not an attestation of the living figure of "Muhammad"...)  of a "Muhammad" during the conquest (already dead according to the traditional account) or a "Muhammad" died not long ago in "Medina" in the "Hijaz".  All the historical keywords of Islam are absent of the Syriac/Greek/Armenian sources of the 7th c. : Kaba, Medina, Mecca, Abu Bakr, Zem Zem, Khalid ibn Walid, Angel Gabriel, Khadija, Fatima, Ali, Umar, Utman,etc.,  and last but not least : the Quran itself. There's nothing. The 'no need' of  (all) the  traditional account to have the Quranic text.  The absence of epigraphic and archaeologic validation of the historical affirmation by the traditional account  affirming the "Meccan" provenance of the Umayyad in more than 100 years (636-750). That's enough to put it aside. I could add the non comprehension of the Quranic text by the mufassirun supposed (and claiming) to have a a strong tradition going back to the producer of the text, etc.

    Quote
    I have written a rebuttal of this hypothesis and would appreciate you could take a look at it for suggestions and corrections.


    Yes I can : get to https://www.hightail.com/pricing (it's free) and send me the link in MP.
     




  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2115 - June 01, 2018, 01:39 AM

    Your reasoning is becoming clear. There is one problem that I have with what you wrote, and it is that you make a false dichotomy: either Muhammad did not exist or the traditional narrative in its entirety must be genuine. Things need not be black and white. But before going any further, could you please read this article by Raymond Dequin. He argues that Mecca only became a place of pilgrimage in the Abbasid era and Mecca was located somewhere in Mesopotamia. By the way, he does not beleive that Muhammad and Ali existed. Here is the article:

    http://inarah.de/sammelbaende-und-artikel/inarah-band-6/dequin-fruehe-%CA%BFali-verehrung-und-die-schoepfung-des-abbasidischen-weltbilds/#_ednref222

    Could you just tell me what he writes about Mecca and whether you agree with him or not? This Mecca question is bothering me.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2116 - June 01, 2018, 08:18 AM

    Your reasoning is becoming clear. There is one problem that I have with what you wrote, and it is that you make a false dichotomy: either Muhammad did not exist or the traditional narrative in its entirety must be genuine. Things need not be black and white............


    i agree with that point Mahgraye....and that is the reason I often say/talk/write about "Multiple Muhammads in Islamic history"...Out of that  23 years of Prophet of Islam ..ISLAMIC LIFE .... To start with, there could have been a Arab Christian/Arab Jewish or Arab pagan preacher ..to whose name this name tag "Muhammad" was attached and i consider him as  the 1st Muhammad..  but then after 1st 10 or so years of preaching OT/NT stories  to  his community......  you get different Muhammads  all the way to the time Quran/Sunnah became books of Islam  which is 100s of years after the death of that 1st preacher of Islam..


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2117 - June 01, 2018, 09:10 AM

    Quote
    and it is that you make a false dichotomy: either Muhammad did not exist or the traditional narrative in its entirety must be genuine.Things need not be black and white.


    You do not comprehend how scientific methodology works dear Mahgraye. My reasoning follow  academic methodology  The traditional narrative affirms what it calls historical facts. These historical facts are not corroborated by the non Muslim sources or by the historical actors themselves : the Umayyad for example. Therefore that the Umayyad are coming from "Mecca" is not really plausible. Especially  when you realize that there is no sources about "Mecca" as well. Then you have to believe what says the traditional narrative even if you have no evidence for it. Believe. Not thinking because you have ground to think what you think. It is the difference between what is established as facts and faith.
    Things (historical facts) need to be validated. Example : I am the King of England. You believe me?  You have to think I am! If not, you are a plotter! And if you ask me proofs/evidences to validate or corroborate what I say you're a revisionist! And if you say that I'm not the King you're worse! Do you comprehend now how it works dear Mahgraye? It is the same thing with the traditional narrative. It affirms facts : none of theses related to key facts about Islam is corroborated : none. Kaba, Medina, Mecca, Abu Bakr, Zem Zem, Khalid ibn Walid, Angel Gabriel, Khadija, Fatima, Ali, Umar, Utman,etc.,  and last but not least : the Quran itself. There's nothing. These things serve to explain the origin of the existence of the Quranic text. They are inexact. The origin of the Quranic text is not explicated by theses things, since these things are not historical because they are not corroborated. I follow here (only) academic and scientific methodology.

    Quote
    But before going any further, could you please read this article by Raymond Dequin. He argues that Mecca only became a place of pilgrimage in the Abbasid era and Mecca was located somewhere in Mesopotamia.


    Translation needed!
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2118 - June 01, 2018, 09:53 AM


    Translation of Dequin :
    Quote
    "
    In Ṭabarī it is described how during the liberation Muḥammad ibn al-Ḥanafīyas and its companions (captured souls?) the wooden bars of Zamzam are broken. A spring or a cult pond with "living water" (usually derived from a nearby river), however, was an integral part of a Mandaean sanctuary. This was surrounded by a fence. In this stood also a cult hut, the maskna. This word is apparently derived from the Old Testament "miskan", the tabernacle[221]. The term maskna is not dissimilar to the name Mecca, and indeed this name is first encountered outside traditional literature[222] in the Mandean settlement area: Seven years after the imprisonment Muḥammad ibn al-Ḥanafīyas Ṭabarī describes the end ʿAbdallāh ibn al-Zubairs in "Macca"[223]. In the Latin chronicle on 754 this is described as follows:

    At that time, in the era of 720[224], in the tenth year of his reign, in the sixty-sixth of the Arabs, Abdilmelic reached the summit of power and reigned for twenty years. He persecuted his father's adversary and killed him in Macca, Abraham's house, as they themselves say, between Ur (the city) of the Chaldeans and Carras (the city) of Mesopotamia, by an army commander, whom he had sent for this purpose. Thus he skillfully put an end to the civil war."”[225]

    This "Macca" was thus settled by the chronicler in Mesopotamia, near the southern swampland[226], later the retreat area of the Mandaeans. Traditional literature also establishes the site of Ḫāriǧiten ("The Extracted") called"”" (Caves / Clefts)[227]. The numerous stories in the life of the Arab prophet, in which it is said that "exiles" from their community lived in gorges and crevices near Mecca, could have been transferred from here to today's Mecca. One must therefore consider that Mecca with its spring "Zamzam"[228] was originally a Mandaic sanctuary. Also at the bottom of the mosque of Medina there is said to have been a spring[229]. Thus a line of tradition may also lead back from the "imams of time" of the kind Muḥammad ibn al-Ḥanafīyas to the "redeemers" or "messengers" of the Mandaeans, who worked through all ages and generations under different forms and names[230].

    These are significant similarities. However, it is the same with them as with the Mandean ideas already mentioned earlier: If one tries to follow these traces further, the search for intermediate stages is difficult. This may be due to the fact that the Imamite tradition of Islam came from a gnosis that was only remotely related to the Mandaean tradition. But this may also be due to the fact that the tradition of the last one thousand years - from both sides - did not want to know anything about such a relationship and clearer indications were eradicated and alienated over the centuries. This possibility must continue to be pursued with particular care.

    [221] Rudolph, Mandaean II, p. 17 ff. In more recent texts this hut is called "Mandi".
    [222] Equation with the "Macoraba" of Ptolemy is out of the question, since this name is to be understood rather as "“" - West (of the Arabian Peninsula); see Bucharin, Mecca, p. 122. The name "Makoraba" can be found on the map of Ptolemy also about where one would enter such a name - and quite far away from today's Mecca. For further attempts to find Mecca in ancient sources, see Crone, Meccan Trade, p. 134 ff.; compare also Crone and Cook, Hagarism, p. 24 f., in particular footnote 48 on p. 175.

    [223] Ṭabarī, Ta’rīḫ XXI p. 224 ff. (II, 844 ff.). He's hit by a brick in his face, not iron.
    [224]The 38 B.C. Spanish era. This would mathematically correspond to the year 682 of the Christian era, see Latin Chronicle on 754, preface Mommsen p. 327, but the "66th year of the Arabs" lasted from August 685 to July 686 according to later understanding (so in Tabari).
    [225]Latin chronicle on 754, section 45, p. 347. translation into German by the author. Similarly the chronicle on 741: "at Macca, Abraham's house, as they think, which lies between the primeval Chaldeans and the Mesopotamian city of Carras on the wasteland" (p. 347, left column).
    [226] The Greek charax denoted a fortification by palisades and the name is correspondingly frequent. Here it will be the today disappeared port city in the north of the Persian Gulf, which was called first after Alexander the Great Alexandria, later, after a renewal by Antiochus: Antiochia and finally after the Arab chief Spasines: Spasinou Charax (Barrington, Atlas, p. 93).
    [227]Popp, Biblical Structures, pp. 78-81.
    [228] Aramaic "murmur", which can also refer to marbles while praying (note Luxenberg). The murmuring prayers of Zoroastrian priests, frowned upon in Islam, were also called "zamzama" (reference Popp). Compare the article "Zamzam" by B. Carra de Vaux in EI(1), p. 1213.


    Ok. Very confused stuff with the Gnostic(s)  (and the rest...) here, which have nothing to see with the Quranic texts.
    My observation is : as soon as the muhajirun wrote (from the 720/730 AD) the framework of Mecca/Medina/Muhammad whose the role is to explain the origin of the Quran around which they are gathered, the non Muslim chroniclers (from 720/730 AD)  copy this framework as "what has happened". The non Muslim chroniclers have no reason to doubts, they take this "history"for granted. From the middle 8th c. all what is written by those chroniclers is based on the framework of Mecca/Medina/Muhammad.
    What is interesting in some of their writings (noted by Dequin) is the blur about keywords of the  framework  Mecca/Medina/Muhammad. Nobody know where is "Mecca" for example, they locate it in Iraq, nobody know "Hijaz", etc.
    These writing attest one important thing : that the framework of Mecca/Medina/Muhammad history is being constructed and it is not stabilized. and is still in elaboration regarding, as the non Muslim chroniclers source attest, the location of Mecca.
    It is all I have to say about the Dequin stuff I translated.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2119 - June 01, 2018, 11:00 AM

    Being an Inarah member, he obviously does not beleive in the traditional account. He does not even think Muhammad and Ali existed. He argues that Mecca only became a place of pilgrimage during the Abbasids. Relying on a Latin or Spanish contemporary account, he says that Mecca was located somewhere in Mesopotamia. I believe the account he relied upon talked about the death of Ibn al-Zubayr.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2120 - June 01, 2018, 01:44 PM



    I already posted this inscription in the group. There is nothing special about it. Similar statements are already found on the Dome of the Rock.


    I think there is a lot of "similar"in these inscriptions. Inscriptions used to yield unexpected info, these days only confirmation.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2121 - June 01, 2018, 03:10 PM

    ...........This Mecca question is bothering me..............


    well  then you got to do this dear Mahgraye..

     if something bothers YOU MUST DO THAT..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2122 - June 02, 2018, 08:05 AM

    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/Safaitic/status/1002562026831478784
    Quote from: Ahmad Al-Jallad
    According to legend, the Arabian nomads were mostly isolated from the outside world until the rise of Islam. This rock (MISSI.I 1), bearing Safaitic and Greek inscriptions, from the desert of southern Syria (near Zalaf) suggests otherwise.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2123 - June 03, 2018, 10:28 AM

    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/shahanSean/status/1003052118960496640
    Quote from: Sean Anthony
    This still needs confirmation and full documentation by scientific methods, but this just might be the first pre-Islamic, Arabic inscription to be found written by a Meccan. Translation and comments to follow ...

    Translation:
    Line 1: In your name, O God. I am 'Abd Shams ibn Mughīrah
    Line 2: he seeks the forgiveness of his Lord.
    If authentic (a BIG if right now), what would make us think it's likely pre-Islamic? The following reasons ...

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2124 - June 03, 2018, 12:21 PM

    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/shahanSean/status/1003052118960496640

    Quote
    https://mobile.twitter.com/shahanSean/status/1003055345026195457
    https://mobile.twitter.com/shahanSean/status/1003055345026195457/photo/1

    Translation:
    Line 1: In your name, O God. I am 'Abd Shams ibn Mughīrah
    Line 2: he seeks the forgiveness of his Lord.
    If authentic (a BIG if right now), what would make us think it's likely pre-Islamic? The following reasons ... (TBC)


    well shahanSean.,   It makes me to think that "THERE IS NOTHING NEW IN QURAN THAT WAS NOT THERE BEFORE THE BIRTH OF ISLAM "

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2125 - June 03, 2018, 09:31 PM

    Any coins from "Mecca"? "Medina" maybe? Ta'if, then?  ( Cheesy)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2126 - June 03, 2018, 11:36 PM

    Ghali Adi:

    Quote
    Note, the governor of Mecca is writing it himself making it one of the earliest inscriptions out there.  A bit problematic for those that didn’t believe Mecca existed at this period.


    https://twitter.com/adi_ghali/status/1003254739038072832
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2127 - June 04, 2018, 01:24 AM

    Any coins from "Mecca"? "Medina" maybe? Ta'if, then?  ( Cheesy)

    dear Altara  we ((those of us  who question the existence of traditional Muhammad, Mecca, Madina))  must realize that traditional Islamic story tellers have innumerable stories on Prophet of Islam with these Arab and non-Arab Sahaba............so called companions of Prophet of Islam...  So those who question  origins of traditional Islam  not only we have counter Muhammad, Mecca, Madina   but story of all these   A to Z  guys the aquitance of prophet of Islam

    Quote
    A


    Abdu'l-Rahman ibn Abu Bakr
    Abdullah ibn Abd nahm (ar)
    Abdullah ibn Auf
    Abu Hurairah
    Abu Jandal ibn Suhail
    Anas ibn Mâlik
    Asmâ' bint Abî Bakr
    Aisha
    B
    Bilal ibn Malik al-Mazni[ar]
     
    D
    Dihyah al-Kalbi
    Dirar ibn al-Azwar[ar]
    F
    Fadl ibn Abbas
    Fatima az-Zahra bint Muhammad
    Fatima bint Al-Aswad
    Fatimah bint al-Khattab
    H
    Habab ibn Mundhir
    Habib ibn Zayd al-Ansari
    Habibah binte Ubayd-Allah
    Hafsa bint Umar ibn al-Khattab
    Hassan
    Hussain
    I
    Ibrahim Abû Râfa`i[ar]
    Ibrahim al-`Adhrî[ar]
    Ibrahim al-Ansârî[ar]

    J
    Jabr
    Jabir ibn Abdullah al-Ansari
    Jafar ibn Abi Talib

    K
    Khadija (R.A)
    Ka'b ibn Zuhayr
    Khadijah bint Khuwaylid
    Khalid ibn al-As[ar]
    Khalid ibn al-Waleed
    Al-Khansa
    L
    Labid ibn Rabi'a
    Layla bint al-Minhal
    Lubaba bint al-Harith
    Lubaynah
    M
    Malik al-Dar
    Maria al-Qibtiyya
    Malik al-Ashtar
    Mu`awwaz ibn `Amr
    Muhammad ibn Abi Bakr
    Muhammad ibn Maslamah

    N
    Na'ila bint al-Farafisa
    Nabagha al-Ju'adi[ar]
    Najiyah bint al-Walid
    Nasiba bint al-Harith[ar]
    Nasiba bint Ka'b[ar]

    R
    Rab'ah ibn Umayah
    Rufaida Al-Aslamia
    Ruqayyah bint Muhammad
    Rumaysa bint Milhan
    S
    Sa`sa`a ibn Suhan
    Sa`d ibn Abî Waqâs
    Sa`d ibn ar-Rabi`
    Said ibn Jazied
    Sa`d ibn Malik
    T
    Talhah ibn Ubaydullah
    Tamim Abu Ruqayya (see also Bayt Jibrin)
    Tamim al-Ansari

    U
    Ubayd Allah ibn Abd Allah
    Ubaydah ibn al-Harith
    Ubayda ibn as-Samit
    Ubayy ibn al-Qashab al-Azdi[ar]

    W
    Wahb ibn `Umayr
    Wahshî ibn Harb
    Walid ibn Uqba
    Walid ibn al Walid


    Z
    Zayd al-Khayr
    Zayd ibn al-Khattab
    Zayd ibn Arqam
    Zayd ibn Harithah
    Zayd ibn Thabit
    Zayd ibn Sahl[ar]
    Zaynab bint Ali
    Zaynab bint Jahsh
    Zaynab bint Khuzayma


    that is not even quarter of the list ...So  dear Altara  so many sahaba stories out there to counter for you...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2128 - June 04, 2018, 09:59 AM




     "Governor" without coins?  That does not not exist whatever the numbers of inscriptions on the rocks...

    Quote from: yeezevee
    So those who question  origins of traditional Islam  not only we have counter Muhammad, Mecca, Madina  but story of all these   A to Z  guys the aquitance of prophet of Islam ----that is not even quarter of the list ...So  dear Altara  so many sahaba stories out there to counter for you...


    Not at all, they recount the same (inexact since not validated or corroborated by other sources - Mecca/Medina/God talk to me in my head and I proclaim it every day to all the people in the great city of commerce Mecca, etc) story. And as it is not "Mecca" since nobody knows it before Islam, it is hardly plausible elsewhere as "elsewhere" is heavily Christianised (one way or another, "heretical" or not...) since hundreds years, because there is not trace at all of this story. Nowhere. Of course, it is very plausible on the Moon or Mars or Kepler 452b.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2129 - June 04, 2018, 03:35 PM


     "Governor" without coins?  That does not not exist whatever the numbers of inscriptions on the rocks...


    well that is tough one to digest as coinage monetary systems were everywhere  at that time around the kingdoms that were there in and around Arabia...  for e.g., Ethiopians ..Persians....Byzantines ... Early Christians ...all of them had coinage system from first century onward.....

    but one can escape that "Governor" without coins?"  by saying Prophet forbade imagery as it leads to idolatry...  

    forget  coins ,  we do not even have any  buildings and architecture  in those towns.,     there is absolutely NO ARCHITECTURAL EVIDENCE OF ANY GREAT RULERS AROUND THESE GREAT MECCA & MADINA ..

    as far as this is concerned
    Quote
    Not at all, they recount the same (inexact since not validated or corroborated by other sources - Mecca/Medina/God talk to me in my head and I proclaim it every day to all the people in the great city of commerce Mecca, etc) story.

    suppose we remove that  "God talk to me in my head and I proclaim it every day " business.,   then

    can we say that there  was a Muhammad  character around that time?

    and  Altara I  am assuming that you completely neglect these guys
    **********************************************************************
    Ibn Ishaq (d. 761) - Sirah Rasul Allah (The Life of the Apostle of God)
    Al-Waqidi (d. 823) - Kitab al-Tarikh wa'l-Maghazi (Book of History and Battles).
    Ibn Abd al-Hakam (d. 871) - Futuh Misr wa'l-Maghrib wa akhbaruha
    Ibn Qutaybah (d. 889) - Uyun al-akhbar, Al-Imama wa al-Siyasa
    Muhammad ibn Jarir al-Tabari (838CE - 923CE) - History of the Prophets and Kings
    Ismail ibn Kathir (1300 – 1373)  ..

     Ibn Kathir .... Tafseer al-Qurʾān al-ʿAẓeem
     *******************************************************************

    as  story tellers/harry potter writers of their times??


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
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