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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2070 - May 27, 2018, 05:18 PM

    ...........................

    1). My belief that there existed a prophet based on the actual evidence is not me supporting the traditional account. Same thing applies to the hadith. I relied on methods employed in modern Hadith Studies in order to date a certain tradition back to a Companion of Muhammad.

    2).  I did not assume the reliability of all hadith. Speaking of hadith, I must say this in the name of intellectual honesty. I made a mistake. The actual common link of “A Bequest May Not Exceed One-Third” tradition is not Saʿd ibn Abī Waqqās, but rather, the Meccan ʿAbd Allāh b. Khuthaym (d. 136/753 or 144/761–2).

    Quote
    Be that as it may, in light of Lawrence Conrad's great work, we can be reasonably sure that there existed genuine common links in the generation of the Companions. That is a possibility we must contend with.

    3). ............. A group of scholars have manged to date a corpus of traditions back to the early Successor ʿUrwa ibn al-Zubayr. This is significant.

    a).  ʿUrwa was the nephew of ʿĀʾishah, and the brother of ʿAbd Allāh ibn al-Zubayr, whom we know existed. ʿUrwa’s proximity to the actual events he reports stand in the favour of minimal historicity. His transmission is also very immediate and uncomplicated, the only one standing between him and Muḥammad being his aunt,ʿĀʾishah.  

    b). His source(s) is thus an eyewitness. And you know what? Motzki, the man who developed the isnād-cum-matn analysis and the one Marijin responded to, agrees with dating these traditions back to ʿUrwa.

    Quote
    Marijin’s comments is certainly true, in that it applies to many tradition, but not all. And that is the key distinction. I do not know if he has engaged with ʿUrwa’s corpus.

      

      

    good one...  good post ..Mahgraye

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2071 - May 27, 2018, 05:32 PM

    Dear Mahgraye,

    I do not think the Didascaly has to be trusted as an historical account regarding  the existence of Muhammad. But (has to be interestingly read) as regarding other things.
    Quote
    and not based on a detailed reading of the actual text, nor the scholarly commentary on it.


    It is. The scholarly commentary on it say what it wants dear Mahgraye, what it wants...

    Quote
    Abraham’s source of information was based on interviews he had conducted, and this is very important, with “those who had met him [that is, Muhammad].”


    Who are "those"? Whereas almost all Syriac accounts give how "those" guys are called, the Didascaly does not give any appellations, names, etc., about the "those". Where those meeting has happened ? When ?  Blur.

    Quote
    The text reports that Muḥammad was preaching the return of Jesus.  This information could have been known to Abraham’s informants, “who had met him”. And this quite explicit, since it says that Muḥammad came “with the Saracens”.


     The return of Jesus is a Christian belief. Muḥammad is Christian ? Tell me he is, dear Mahgraye, and I'm converting to Christianity (the same as Muḥammad) at once!
    The Didascaly describes a ("Saracen" as you say) Christian Prophet. It is what I read, dear Mahgraye. Came “with the Saracens”. But, dear Mahgraye, the Saracens, in Sinai/ Palestine/Syria/, they are there since 450 AD. And numerous. It seems that the Didascaly do not know that.  How can that be ? And they are slowly converted from 450 to 600. To what ? Christianity (Jacobite).

    Quote
    I can think of three things: Muḥammad existing, that he preached the return of Jesus, and that he possessed the Keys to Paradise. All consistent with the later Arabic sources.  


    "All consistent with the later Arabic sources"
    What "later Arabic sources"?
    The Quran? Where, in the Quran, Jesus is returning, dear Mahgraye? Nowhere.
    In the late hadith ?
    It is then speculative theology ; nothing else. Not taken from the Quran, but from Christian creeds and scriptures (Book of Revelation). Same for Muḥammad  with the Keys to Paradise, not in the Quran. The Keys to Paradise is a Christian concept. Nothing to see with Islam, Kaba, Zem Zem, Abu Bakr, the Companions, etc.
    If Muhammad was alive and kicking, how can that be that the Didascaly is the sole testimony of a "meeting" with anonymous people who know him? Why do we not have other accounts like this ?
    Mind it dear Mahgraye. Mind it.
    It is because it is not an historical account.

    I'll deal with Urwa later.



  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2072 - May 27, 2018, 05:48 PM

    .................The return of Jesus is a Christian belief. Muḥammad is Christian ? Tell me he is, dear Mahgraye, and I'm converting to Christianity (the same as Muḥammad) at once!


    hmm.,   So Altara  is not a Christian and neither  a Muslim or a Jew..but waiting for Christ to come down with angels  .. A men to that from yeezevee

    and   Dear friends, ....now we are like children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, We shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. ...

    Quote
    .................Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade - kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.....

    ..............And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away.....

    .............When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.....

    ................... Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

    ........................He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon." Amen, Come, Lord Jesus. The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God's people. Amen.

      good stuff...  good stuff  A men to that.,     but it is unfortunate that well educated folks like Sean W. Anthony  or even  Mahgraye  DO NOT BELIEVE IN THOSE VERSES

    correct me if i am wrong dear Mahgraye..

    with beat wishes to both of you
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2073 - May 27, 2018, 08:35 PM

    Interview with Laïla Nehmé about the Nabataean city of Hegra: https://news.cnrs.fr/articles/hegras-splendor-revealed
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2074 - May 28, 2018, 02:20 PM

    hello  Mahgraye  on these names your post

    ...........I must say this in the name of intellectual honesty. I made a mistake..............

    ...... Saʿd ibn Abī Waqqās.............
    ......ʿAbd Allāh b. Khuthaym ...........

    ................Lawrence Conrad...........
    ................Marijin van Putten...........
     ʿ..............Urwa ibn al-Zubayr................
    ʿUrwa was the nephew of ʿĀʾishah,
    ..............and the brother of ʿAbd Allāh ibn al-Zubayr, ...........
    ... the only one standing between him and Muḥammad being his aunt, ʿĀʾishah.

    Quote
    Motzki, the man who developed the isnād-cum-matn analysis and the one Marijin responded to, agrees with dating these traditions back to ʿUrwa.



    Q1.  on  those  highlighted  names  did you read any hadith  directly  from them?  or is it all "  prophet said Aishatold"??

    Q2,   Motzki,..  is  Motzki  that German guy Harald Motzk??

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2075 - May 28, 2018, 02:50 PM

    Q1.  It is  "prophet said Aisha told"
    Q2,   Motzki,..  is  Motzki  that German guy Harald Motzki  ??
    Yes it is.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2076 - May 28, 2018, 02:53 PM



    Nicola Ziadeh "Mawiya, a Desert Arab Queen of the 4th Century AD."  2003.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIyhPn7_QDA
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2077 - May 28, 2018, 04:30 PM


    Nicola Ziadeh "Mawiya, a Desert Arab Queen of the 4th Century AD."  2003.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIyhPn7_QDA

     That is a  good one Altara.,  that subject of  Desert Arab Queens   need to be highlighted  foe those fools who says Arabia before Islam was jahiliyyah   

    by the  way,  by chance Did you guys read the work of dr,  Herbert Berg  of   University of Toronto?  such as

    Quote
    The Development of Exegesis in Early Islam: The Debate over the Authenticity of Muslim Literature from the Formative Period. .....2000.

    “The ‘School’ of Ibn ‘Abbās.” In The Meaning of the Word: Lexicology and Tafsīr, edited by Stephen Burge,   2015

    “The Needle in the Haystack: Islamic Origins and the Nature of the Early Sources.” In The Coming of the Comforter: When, Where, and to Whom?   2012.

    "Competing Paradigms in the Study of Islamic Origins: Qur’ān 15:89-91 and the Value of Isnāds." Method and Theory in the Study of Islamic Origins, ,, 2003.

    ideas that are different to existing convictions on early Islam...

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2078 - May 28, 2018, 05:32 PM

    by the  way,  by chance Did you guys read the work ...

    Yes.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2079 - May 28, 2018, 06:21 PM

    Quote
    good one...  good post ...Mahgraye.


    Haha. You always sound sarcastic, Yeezevee. Still, I appreciate your nice comment, and will thus take them as compliments.

    Quote
    by the  way,  by chance Did you guys read the work of dr,  Herbert Berg  of   University of Toronto?  such as


    Yes, I am ware of Herbert Berg. Great scholar. If you have not read him, then you should.

    Quote
    A men to that.,     but it is unfortunate that well educated folks like Sean W. Anthony  or even  Mahgraye  DO NOT BELIEVE IN THOSE VERSES

    correct me if i am wrong dear Mahgraye.


    I really did not understand anything, haha. What is your question? Why are you, if I am not mistaken, citing Bible verses?

    I appreciate Altara's response and will respond soon.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2080 - May 28, 2018, 07:04 PM

    https://iqsaweb.wordpress.com/2015/04/13/dost-arabian_context_diss/

    A very interesting, and highly relevant, new book by Süleyman Dost. Looking forward to its publication.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2081 - May 28, 2018, 08:16 PM

    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/Safaitic/status/1001165743529103360
    Quote from: Ahmad Al-Jallad
    Are there religious texts in Arabic before Islam? Yes! In 2015, I deciphered an ancient poem, in a form of the Safaitic script, recounting the cosmic battle between Mōt, the god of death, and Baʿal, the storm god, echoing the ancient Canaanite Baal Cycle...

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2082 - May 28, 2018, 08:25 PM

    https://iqsaweb.wordpress.com/2015/04/13/dost-arabian_context_diss/

    A very interesting, and highly relevant, new book by Süleyman Dost. Looking forward to its publication.

    Really

    what is good about his work?  IS HE TRYING TO FIX QURAN??

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2083 - May 28, 2018, 10:25 PM

    I do not know. I was interested in it because he is discussing Quranic geography (if I am not mistaken).

    Speaking of Quranic geography, where do you think the Quran originated from, Altara? North Arabia? Syro-Palestine? Northern Syria? Or do you think, as other scholars do, that some parts of the Quranic corpus does indeed fit perfectly in Western Arabia (Ḥijāz), whilst others do not?

    I would appreciate sources for further reading.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2084 - May 29, 2018, 01:42 AM

    I do not know. I was interested in it because he is discussing Quranic geography.

    well Quranic geography is pretty clear to those who read WHOLE QURAN dear Mahgraye ..  but  reading Quran to   ask imple  questions  such as  

    Who wrote Quran? .
    Who compiled Quran
    Who was Quranic Muhammad ?  

     looking for critical answers  to  such simple questions using brain  is really taxing. Hence   this folder of "Inquiring in to Prophet Muhammad's Life   from Quran".   and  if you read posts in this folder   where every verse of half of the quran is posted Quranic geography of present book is   clear ..    

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2085 - May 29, 2018, 02:15 AM

    So, where do you think the Quran originated, Yeezevee? Could you just give me a geographical location?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2086 - May 29, 2018, 02:58 AM

    So, where do you think the Quran originated, Yeezevee? Could you just give me a geographical location?

    for that you have to read Quran .. Are you willing to read every verse of it along with me ??

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2087 - May 29, 2018, 03:10 AM

    Assuming you have done that, where do you think it originated?

    By the way, when are you going to provide the reference(s) for those several individuals named Muhammad?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2088 - May 29, 2018, 08:27 AM

    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/JackTannous/status/1001249999320166402
    Quote from: Jack Tannous
    Christian Robin discusses a fifth-century inscription from Saudi Arabia today at Princeton. The script is clearly Arabic, he pointed out, but the language is Aramaic. Note the cross preceding the inscription.  The first day of our workshop on Pre-Islamic Arabia.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2089 - May 29, 2018, 03:54 PM

    Quote
    where do you think the Quran originated from, Altara?


    Every  (real...) city place in Orient is possible.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2090 - May 29, 2018, 04:39 PM

    Assuming you have done that,

    well i read Quran all  114 surahs  at least 3 times and referred/read individual surahs and verses innumerable times dear Mahgraye,  

    in fact  i gave you link  at this post
    .........................  this folder of "Inquiring in to Prophet Muhammad's Life   from Quran".   and  if you read posts in this folder   ............. Quranic geography of present book is   clear ..    

    So  read it....
    Quote
    where do you think it originated?

    Well  i said before much of the Quran is originated before the birth of Muhammad

    Quote
    ...By the way, when are you going to provide the reference(s) for those several individuals named Muhammad?....

    well you  said this
    .................Yes, please provide the reference as soon as possible. I am currently writing something on that particular topic, so I am in need of that reference. I hope it is scholarly.

      so that highlighted word made me to hesitate to disuses that subject ..,    moreover  ..... for getting actual reference(s)/sources  for those 100s of individuals whose name was name Muhammad  in early Islam   .............. ...that is a difficult task for academic  folks who are  researching around Islam .  It is much more  difficult  than figuring out where   Quran is originated  or  Quranic  geography.,  

    because it deals with not just reading one book.. Quran..... but many volumes of books..


    that is  15 Volumes of just from one guy  ....BULL SHIT Al-Bukhari  books  and there are more from others . But....but dear Mahgraye.,   you didn't even read Quran ..  just one book  so i don't expect you to read volumes of hadith  to figure out  ISLAMIC MUHAMMADS dear Mahgraye.

    well you academics are very busy people .,  so it is OK not to read junk     but correct me if i am wrong what i said about you not reading....

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2091 - May 29, 2018, 06:46 PM

    Reimagining Christian Identity in an Islamic World: Joshua Mugler Reviews Peter Schadler’s John of Damascus and Islam

    https://marginalia.lareviewofbooks.org/reimagining-christian-identity-in-a-muslim-world/
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2092 - May 29, 2018, 07:26 PM

    Quote
    Every  (real...) city place in Orient is possible.


    I see. Any specific place that you are leaning towards? What do you think of Gallez's suggestion?

    Another important question for your: Do you adhere to the Jewish Christianity hypothesis?

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2093 - May 29, 2018, 07:34 PM

    I looked through the thread you posted, Yeezevee, but I do not think I read you writing a specific geographical area. If I missed it, then please provide it. I know that you beleive that much of the Quranic corpus is pre-Muhammad, but I was inquiring about geography. So, where do you think it originated? North Arabia? Syro-Palestine? Northern Syria? Mesopotamia? Negev? A combination of several places? A straightforward answer would be appreciated.   

    There is no problem if the reference(s) are not scholarly.

    If I understood you correctly, you relied upon Fatḥ al-bārī by Ibn Ḥajar al-ʿAsqalānī for those names, right? Anyways, please provide them. Scholarly or not, it does not matter. I need those names really bad.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2094 - May 30, 2018, 09:08 AM

    I see. Any specific place that you are leaning towards? What do you think of Gallez's suggestion?


    It is possible. Gallez is a very great guy. It's too bad  (and surprising...) that his book (like the two of de Prémare ) did not be translated in English for you guys really. Because (even if I disagree with his main thesis...) he brings many many things in articulating (better) the sources than did Crone in Hagarism. He did a very good job and is always near me when I need to check something  (what Gallez says about this or that...) indispensable book. Same with de Prémare : indispensable. Two great guys. The French production in the field is proportionally significantly better than all the Anglophone one : Gallez, de Prémare, Gobillot, Azaiez, Dye, Borrut, Robin, Déroche, Larcher, Cellard (last paper about the qiraat, very interesting...). About the Syriac world ; Briquel-Chatonnet, Debié.

    Another important question for your: Do you adhere to the Jewish Christianity hypothesis?


    Problem is what is "Jewish Christianity" in the sixth century? We have the Panarion of Epiphanius, it is the only stuff ; we do not have later works, especially about the peninsula/Sinai/Palestine/Syria, etc. We are obliged to project what we know from the Epiphanius time, 2/3 cent later.
    I hope I have responded to your questions dear Magraye and remember : no Mecca, Medina, no "prophet"... No need of a "prophet" to write the Quran...

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2095 - May 30, 2018, 12:42 PM

    https://iqsaweb.wordpress.com/2015/04/13/dost-arabian_context_diss/

    A very interesting, and highly relevant, new book by Süleyman Dost. Looking forward to its publication.


    thank you very interesting indeed.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2096 - May 30, 2018, 01:15 PM

    Reimagining Christian Identity in an Islamic World: Joshua Mugler Reviews Peter Schadler’s John of Damascus and Islam

    https://marginalia.lareviewofbooks.org/reimagining-christian-identity-in-a-muslim-world/


    Interesting review : I'm agree with Schadler except the late Quran.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2097 - May 30, 2018, 02:23 PM

    Quote
    thank you very interesting indeed.


    You are welcome.

    Quote
    Problem is what is "Jewish Christianity" in the sixth century? We have the Panarion of Epiphanius, it is the only stuff; we do not have later works, especially about the peninsula/Sinai/Palestine/Syria, etc. We are obliged to project what we know from the Epiphanius time, 2/3 cent later.

    I hope I have responded to your questions dear Mahgraye and remember: no Mecca, Medina, no "prophet"... No need of a "prophet" to write the Quran...


    Indeed. We have almost no evidence of the existence of Jewish Christian sects in the seventh century. Many scholars are against this hypothesis. But I still find it very intriguing and somewhat convincing, especially that version advocated by Gallez.

    I have to disagree with you in regards to Mecca, Medina, and Muhammad, as you well know. Contra Mecca, we have good evidence that there existed a Medina and that it played a role in the formation of early Islam. A sanctuary did exist, but whether that sanctuary was located in Arabia Deserta is another question.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2098 - May 30, 2018, 04:49 PM

    Quote
    We have almost no evidence of the existence of Jewish Christian sects in the seventh century. Many scholars are against this hypothesis.


    I did not really allude about the "existence" in itself. I'm sure they did exist. But did they correspond to what we know in the Panarion is the main concern. What can be drawn from it to project "surely" in the 6 or 7th c.? That is the question.

     
    Quote
    we have good evidence that there existed a Medina and that it played a role in the formation of early Islam.


    "Medina"  as such did not exist. "Yathrib" is a kind of  caravanserail totally unknown as a scribal place, it is more or less a swamp where there is water for local camels. There is no caravan since ages in the peninsula, and there is no Jewish settlement attested in the entire area. The story recounted by the traditional account is therefore not plausible.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2099 - May 30, 2018, 04:56 PM

    Buy you do think that Yathrib existed?  Can you give me some sources for your claims about Yathrib/Medina? The caravans, Jewish settlements, everything.
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