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Theme Changer

 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1950 - April 29, 2018, 09:37 AM

    Dear Yeezevee,

    Thank to wait 2 minutes, I'm going to check if Dye has retweeted the Shaddel tweet.
    Response : No.
    Best,

    Altara

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1951 - April 29, 2018, 11:35 AM

    Dan Gibson " Four Ka’bas April 2018, Dan Gibson "
    https://www.academia.edu/36521399/Four_Kabas

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1952 - April 29, 2018, 12:46 PM

    Again, I do not see the comical part in all this. Several scholars, all of whom leading experts within the subject, accept the inscription as genuine. I even mentioned some of them. Anyways, we will have to wait and see. Scholars are providing their respective evidence on this issue. But I am yet to see your evidence as to why the inscription is a fake. You merely mentioned Umar in a sarcastic manner but did not provide actual evidence.


    I'd add something here. Epigraphists like Imbert (and others...) write articles about their own discoveries and discoveries done by Western guys not suspicionable of, for one reason or another, fabricating inscriptions. They are not so sure of the scientific integrity of Muslims, (even if they have a PhD from Harvard or the planet Mars...) Of course they can write commentaries about this or that, (what Imbert did) but does not dedicate  an article about it.
    It seems to me clear that a guy like Imbert (or others) are very well aware of all of this ; they are not fools. They know very well that the early history of Islam is heavily challenged (see the Imbert intervention in the broadcast "Jésus et l'islam) So yes they want to stay outside this kind of 'discoveries'.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1953 - April 29, 2018, 01:24 PM

    Dear Yeezevee,

    Thank................. Shaddel....................

     sure....

    http://independent.academia.edu/mayshaddel/        

    http://factsanddetails.com/

    Great Guy .. wonderful work                                                


      
    Quote
    ABOUT ME

    I am a teacher and writer currently living in Saga, Japan. I was born in the Mojave Desert in California and brought up mostly in Reston Virginia, in the Washington D.C. suburbs. I graduated from Wesleyan University in 1979 and later took courses to be a high school teacher. Over the years I wrote about rock music and had some pieces published in the Washington Post, the NME, The Face and other publications, wrote a guide about sports in the Washington D.C. area, worked construction, did a stint as bike messenger in D.C. but mostly I have worked overseas as an English teacher—at an elementary school in Istanbul, language institutes and a university in South Korea, as a freelancer in Barcelona and for the last 10 years or so running my own little informal schools in Japan. Being an English teacher is not a very high status job but it does allow one to travel around and has given me ample free time to pursue the website project that you see here.

    I like traveling but I don't really like tourism. One of the primary motivations for launching this website was to provide the kind of information I wish I had when I was traveling. My trips have included long bicycle trips in South America, Africa and Asia and a half dozen trips to China and lots of two or three week trips here and there. When I am on the road I like to travel rough and fast and pack a lot in. Relaxing just kind of makes me nervous. My approach to this website is similar. I'm ALWAYS working on it much to family's dismay.
    Quote
    If you have any questions or comments please e-mail me at ajhays98@yahoo.com. Keep in mind though I am no expert and pretty much everything I know is in my articles. When I am asked questions about things outside these articles I am often no better tracking down the information through Google than you would be.


    Thanks for your interest, Jeff Hays

        Very humble  and great  articles...

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1954 - April 29, 2018, 02:17 PM

    Well... Thank you.  I cannot see the relation between Jeff Hays and Shaddel, but there is surely one  Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1955 - April 30, 2018, 09:43 AM

    Well... Thank you. I cannot see the relation between Jeff Hays and Shaddel, but there is surely one  Wink

      off course  there  is a reason and relationship  between the  work  and qualifications of  Jeff Hays and Mehdy  Shaddel .,  it may not be apparent  but  there  is   ..lol.. incidentally  it also relates to the words  "not a scholar"  of your post .....  Cheesy  but  internet cuts through the social   hierarchy  of the society  by various ways.....           
     
    So  zeca  posted  this link  http://www.mizanproject.org/censored-manuscripts-censored-intellects/ that has Quranic story  article... what is your opinion  on that?

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1956 - April 30, 2018, 08:01 PM

    The Mizan article seems to me curiously linked to the "Patricia Crone sceptic and revisionist ..." article (in French, in academia) whose I was talking about to our friend Maghraye. In fact it might have been her in : " If you remove [Patricia Crone] from the board, I will be happy to join it. As long as he is on it, I am afraid that is out of the question. In advance, jazakum Allah khayran for doing the right and moral thing. I hope you do not mind this piece of nasiha."
    Especially that Crone has been called  a "charlatan" as well (but I do not remember the guy...)
    One can think to Herbert Berg as well who is a great scholar instead of Patricia Crone.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1957 - April 30, 2018, 08:50 PM

    Could you please elaborate on your comment regarding Herbert Berg? Did you say that he is a better scholar than Crone? If so, how?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1958 - April 30, 2018, 09:01 PM

    By the way Altara, what do you think of Christoph Luxenberg and his work (Syro-Aramäshe)? Do you accept his central thesis? Also, do you agree with his argument that Jesus is Muhammad? Is that the reason you deny Muhammad's historicity, or do you have your own reasons? Would appreciate an elaborate answer. 
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1959 - April 30, 2018, 10:37 PM

    Could you please elaborate on your comment regarding Herbert Berg? Did you say that he is a better scholar than Crone? If so, how?


    Nope. I just said that Herbert Berg could have been the guy the article is talking about.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1960 - April 30, 2018, 10:52 PM

    By the way Altara, what do you think of Christoph Luxenberg and his work (Syro-Aramäshe)? Do you accept his central thesis? Also, do you agree with his argument that Jesus is Muhammad? Is that the reason you deny Muhammad's historicity, or do you have your own reasons? Would appreciate an elaborate answer. 


    1/ It is an interesting work ; I advice the review of Daniel King about it : https://www.academia.edu/1402642/_A_Christian_Qur_an_An_Assessment_of_Christoph_Luxenberg_s_Theory_on_the_Origins_of_the_Qur_an_in_Journal_of_Late_Antique_Religion_and_Culture_3_2009_pp._44-71

    a) I have forgotten his central thesis, can you remind me ?
    b) Nope.
    c) Therefore nope.
    d) I have my very own reasons that (I hope) you will read in my book one day.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1961 - April 30, 2018, 11:14 PM

    Sure, I can do that. Yes, I also think that it is an interesting thesis. The review by Daniel King is the best one thus far. Very objective.

    Luxenberg is most famous for his 2000 monograph Die Syro-Aramäische Lesart des Koran [“The Syro-Aramaic Reading of the Koran”, 2004], which argued that a quarter of the Koran is written in Syriac, and that there existed an Ur-Koran in Aramaic, in the form of primitive Syriac palimpsests. The Koran is thus written in Karshuni, Arabic but using the Syriac alphabet. In total, he suggested ca. 75 emendations.   

    I look very much towards the day can read your book. Do you not have a blog or something? Could paste a preview of your book? A section, perhaps dealing the Muhammad's historicity?

    Regarding b), why do you not agree with Luxenberg's thesis?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1962 - May 01, 2018, 03:38 PM

    I mentioned that Sean Anthony is currently working on a paper collecting the earliest references to Mecca. Here are some preliminary results of his research:

    https://twitter.com/shahanSean/status/936259614676570112
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1963 - May 01, 2018, 04:50 PM

    I mentioned that Sean Anthony is currently working on a paper collecting the earliest references to Mecca. Here are some preliminary results of his research:

    https://twitter.com/shahanSean/status/936259614676570112

        
    hope Sean  is  not  claiming this  picture  i  see here


    Quote
    Sean W. Anthony  @shahanSean
     30 Nov 2017
    More
    2a/ No. 1 – the Khūzistān Chronicle (ca. 660 CE), written in Syriac.
    The chronicler mentions “Dome of Abraham (ܩܘܒܬܗ ܕܐܒܪܗܡ|qwbth d-ʾbrhm)”and notes the Arabs claim that Abraham “built that place for the worship (ܣܓܕܬܐ|sgdtʾ) of God  and for the offering of sacrifices.”

    at his twitter page as the proof of Mecca  and its  islam   around  660CE

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1964 - May 01, 2018, 04:54 PM

    No, he is not referring to the picture, haha. To be more specific, he says: “[E]arliest historical attestations to Muslim reverence for the Kaʿbah and the Ḥajj.”

    I personally think that the sources he adduced, especially the Khūzistān Chronicle, is evidence of there being a sanctuary. Where that sanctuary is located, is another question.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1965 - May 01, 2018, 06:43 PM

    Let's review together what Sean claims :

    Quote
    2a/ No. 1 – the Khūzistān Chronicle (ca. 660 CE), written in Syriac.
    The chronicler mentions “Dome of Abraham (ܩܘܒܬܗ ܕܐܒܪܗܡ|qwbth d-ʾbrhm)”and notes the Arabs claim that Abraham “built that place for the worship (ܣܓܕܬܐ|sgdtʾ) of God  and for the offering of sacrifices.”

    The Khūzistān Chronicle states of a "Dome".  If Hoyland is right then why  "qwbth" is always translated as "Dome"  by Brock (a specialist in Syriac ) and not Kaba ? Kaba could be derived from CUBOS  given that the building is a CUBOS, and not a "Dome". More, Kaba can be derived from the very same Persian word whose qwbth can be derived as well.  None place is indicated, it could be on Venus.
    Nothing here can be seen as the Kaba of Mecca in the "Hijaz"  but be seen as the Kaba in the Quran. 1-0

    Quote
    3a/ No. 2 - Anastasius of Sinai, Edifying Tales (ca. 660-90 CE), writing in Greek Perhaps one of our richest and most neglected non-Muslim sources for the religious and cultural history of the Near East, Anastasius records a curious tale of a Christian captive taken to “the place where those who hold us in slavery have the stone and the object of their worship.” The captive recounts how “they sacrificed there innumerable myriads of sheep and camels” & claims a she-demon emerge from the earth and consume the remains of sacrifices....


    Christians can go to "Mecca" in the "Hijaz"? Or rather it is not a place of sacrifice (again, as the Quran recounts) where some rites (as described in the Quran) take place ? No mention of Abraham, a specific name ("Mecca" Kaba, Cubos, "Hijaz", Zem Zem, Safaat/Marwat, etc). 2-0

    Quote
    4/ No. 3 – Jacob of Edessa’s Fourth Letter to John the Stylite (between 684-88 CE), in Syriac. Jacob’s letter states unambiguously that “the Muslims (ܡܗܓܪ̈ܝܐ|mhgryʾ<muhājirūn|مهاجرون|lit., ‘Emigrants’)” prayer “towards the Kaʿbah (ܟܥܒܬܐ|kʿbtʾ).”


    This time, it is "unambiguously " then what was ambiguous before Sean ? We never know...  Magrayé pray in direction of the" kʿbtʾ" this time, not the "qwbth" 'different orthography for the same signifier. No mention of "Mecca""Hijaz", "Zem Zem" nor Abraham, even a relatively precise place ; could be in Palestine, Sinaï, Persia, we do not know.  3-0

    Quote
    The papyrus bears the letter of a high-ranking Umayyad prince Sahl ibn ʿAbd al-ʿAzīz containing his invitation to ʿUqbah ibn Muslim to participate in the Ḥajj. Petra Sijpesteijn dated the letter to 86-99 AH / 705-717 CE.


    Interesting. Would only VIP participate to the pilgrimage ? Could be interesting. The pilgrimage would start in the 705- 710 ? It contradicts frontally the traditional account in which Muslim have did it with the Prophet Muhammad. Again,  no mention of "Mecca""Hijaz", "Zem Zem" Safaat/Marwat, nor Abraham. 4-0

    Quote
    6a/ No. 5 – An early Arabic graffito dated to Ḏū l-Qaʿdah 91/Sept. 710 A certain Makhlad ibn Abī Makhlad writes a prayer for God’s forgiveness and that his Ḥajj is accepted found near Tabūk.

     

    Pilgrimage in Tabuk ? the only place with water in the area.Again,  no mention of "Mecca""Hijaz", "Zem Zem" Safaat/Marwat, nor Abraham. . 5-0.

    End of story.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1966 - May 01, 2018, 06:52 PM

    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/AENJournal/status/991309768101941248
    Quote
    AEN remark: We should be skeptical of all sensational finds and this underscores the need for scientific surveying, where discoveries are properly documented. On Basalt at least, fakes are easier to identify. Compare the patina of this 2015 text with the yazid inscription.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1967 - May 01, 2018, 06:59 PM

    No, he is not referring to the picture,................

     No..??  .............nooooo??  you think so   Mahgraye??      '

    well by saying     '"No,'' and confirming  my  doubt  you saved    Sean Anthony  and HIS  ISLAM

    That is  not  a  big deal   but what  that wonderful    professor Patricia Crone  wrote  is  very  important    ..far  more important   for  you  and others   who believe  in  THE ORIGINS OF ISLAM IS DUE TO SOME  GUY   ""MUHAMMAD""  who  is also  a Prophet of Islam.  I was one of them in that   " others"     Cheesy   Cheesy  

    And .....and  that " others" also include  Brain washed  Muslims  as well brainless non-Muslims folks"
    Quote
    Patricia Crone is professor of Islamic history at the Institute for Advanced Study, Princeton. She writes:

    ..........................True, on Arabic coins and inscriptions, and in papyri and other documentary evidence in the language, Mohammed only appears in the 680s, some fifty years after his death (whatever its exact date). This is the ground on which some, notably Yehuda D Nevo and Judith Koren, have questioned his existence. But few would accept the implied premise that history has to be reconstructed on the sole basis of documentary evidence (i.e. information which has not been handed down from one generation to the next, but rather been inscribed on stone or metal or dug up from the ground and thus preserved in its original form). The evidence that a prophet was active among the Arabs in the early decades of the 7th century, on the eve of the Arab conquest of the middle east, must be said to be exceptionally good.

    Everything else about Mohammed is more uncertain, but we can still say a fair amount with reasonable assurance. Most importantly, we can be reasonably sure that the Qur’an is a collection of utterances that he made in the belief that they had been revealed to him by God. The book may not preserve all the messages he claimed to have received, and he is not responsible for the arrangement in which we have them. They were collected after his death – how long after is controversial. But that he uttered all or most of them is difficult to doubt. Those who deny the existence of an Arabian prophet dispute it, of course, but it causes too many problems with later evidence, and indeed with the Qur’an itself, for the attempt to be persuasive.................



    anyways  let us think about what she said and  these  hadith at https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=21713.msg877047#msg877047  
     
     with  best regards  
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1968 - May 01, 2018, 07:05 PM

    Altara, what do you think of my comment (the one above yours)? Do you agree that these sources alongside the Koran indicate that there was a sanctuary? If yes, where do you think this sanctuary is located? Luxenberg thinks the word Mecca is of Aramaic origin and that the actual place is an Aramaean settlement.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1969 - May 01, 2018, 07:06 PM

    Sorry, Yeezevee, I did not understand what you wrote. Are you referring to me? I do not see how I saved Anthony and his Islam.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1970 - May 01, 2018, 07:07 PM

    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/PhDniX/status/991044424514797568
    Quote
    Éléonore Cellard of Codex Amrensis 1 fame ((link: https://brill.com/abstract/title/36027)  has just released a very interesting article discussing several vocalised Quranic documents in the Bibliothèque nationale de France collection. There are several interesting observations

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1971 - May 01, 2018, 07:15 PM

    Sorry, Yeezevee, I did not understand what you wrote. Are you referring to me? I do not see how I saved Anthony and his Islam.

     no  ..no....  no apologies ..no sorry needed...  I was just kidding   .....My posts sometimes cofuses others and confuses me  ..lol.  well  I have to edit  that hadith post ...it  is unreadeble 

    So  question to you  Mahgraye

    does Sean  Anthony  believe  that "Quran is from  Prophet of Islam  and Prophet of Islam was  Muhammad"??

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1972 - May 01, 2018, 07:24 PM

    Haha. No problems. I am not sure. He does not assume the reliability of the later sources, so, I do not know. He would say that the historical individual nicknamed Muhammad is the same person that became the prophet of what later became known as Islam. Although he would not claim that the later reports accurately reports information about the historical Muhammad. But we know that by 690 Muhammad was considered to be God's prophet.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1973 - May 01, 2018, 07:39 PM

    Quote
    (b) Also, do you agree with his argument that Jesus is Muhammad?
    (d) Is that the reason you deny Muhammad's historicity, or do you have your own reasons?


    Just to add few things about (b) and (d).
    I've already told why I do not think that the figure of Muhammad (of the traditional account or not) is historical. I will repeat it. There is no link with the thesis of Luxenberg "Jesus is Muhammad" in my reason(s).  
    1) Technically there's no need of a prophetic figure to write the Quran.
    2) The place given as his living place did not exist (as recounted by the traditional account) because it is attested nowhere before Islam.
    3) There's one main reason that I cannot give here which take into account some reflections of very few scholars (#2) about some deductions they've made and point they have noted/ reached. I came to the same point with another path without knowing theirs (and find theirs later). But, 1) as it is not in their field, 2) and that they think the traditional account as historical,  they did not see that it was a very important point. Point that they just noted. However it is a very important point from the moment where you put aside the traditional account, i.e, that there is no prophetic figure. But you need extra competences to understand this point. Competences which are not learned by scholars who deals with Quranic Studies. It happens that I have some of these competences. With them in mind I dug that way.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1974 - May 01, 2018, 07:41 PM



    Still waiting the RT of Shaddel by Dye. Ask him why he does not want to applause...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1975 - May 01, 2018, 07:44 PM



    Very interesting paper (in French...) no oral tradition, scribes as philologues who try to comprehend an incomprehensible rasm whereas they pretend to have a tradition until the producer of the text, etc.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1976 - May 01, 2018, 07:50 PM

    Quote
    I personally think that the sources he adduced, especially the Khūzistān Chronicle, is evidence of there being a sanctuary. Where that sanctuary is located, is another question.


    The Khūzistān Chronicle.

    Quote
    On the subject of the Dome of Abraham, we have been unable to discover what it is, except that, because the blessed Abraham grew rich in property, and wanted to get away from the envy of the Canaanites, he chose to dwell in distant and spacious parts of the desert; since he lived in tents, he built that place for the worship of God, and for the offering of sacrifices. It took its present name from what its [function] had been, since the memory of the place was preserved with the generations of the tribe; it was no new thing for the Tayyaye to worship there, but goes back to antiquity, to their early days, in that they show honour to the father of the head of their people.


    The sanctuary depicted in the Quran. Nothing else.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1977 - May 01, 2018, 07:51 PM

    Still waiting the RT of Shaddel by Dye. Ask him why he does not want to applause...


    Don't wait. You will not see any applause from Dye.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1978 - May 01, 2018, 08:01 PM

    Altara, where do you think this sanctuary depicted in the Koran is/was located?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1979 - May 01, 2018, 08:14 PM

    It'a a good question. You can answer it reading the response(s) I've made since months now ... Afro
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