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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10350 - August 15, 2021, 06:27 PM

    Fred Donner said that he had a hunch that things happened in the way that the Muslim traditions described them. At the same time he claims that Islam wasn't developed as separate a religion before the reighn of Abd Al-Malik. Illka Lindstedt goes even further and suggests that "the parting of the ways" and a separate Muslim identity happened as late as the 720s or 730s.
    In zeca's comment we can read that Ahab Bdaiwi means that Muhammad is absent in the religious and political formulations of the Umayyad.
    Many arguments points to the conclusion that Muhammad as the "Rusul"of Allah is of a later construction. If much of Islam is created around 700AD or later , how shall we then look upon the Muslim traditions (sira, hadiths, tafsir)?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10351 - August 15, 2021, 09:36 PM

    Fred Donner said that he had a hunch that things happened in the way that the Muslim traditions described them.

    WHEN WHERE AND AT WHAT TIME dear Asbjoern1958??

    Quote
    At the same time he claims that Islam wasn't developed as separate a religion before the reighn of Abd Al-Malik. Illka Lindstedt goes even further and suggests that "the parting of the ways" and a separate Muslim identity happened as late as the 720s or 730s.

    Then what do we do with Quran??

    Didn't the present  Quran THE BOOK ALL WORDS  ALL VERSES existed before 720s or 730s??

    Does he say  some scoundrel/s added some stuff in to Quran??  or there was NO QURAN before 720-730??

    Quote
    In zeca's comment we can read that Ahab Bdaiwi means that Muhammad is absent in the religious and political formulations of the Umayyad.

    Many arguments points to the conclusion that Muhammad as the "Rusul"of Allah is of a later construction. If much of Islam is created around 700AD or later , how shall we then look upon the Muslim traditions (sira, hadiths, tafsir)?

    What do we do with Muhammad in Quran .. those four verses??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10352 - August 16, 2021, 08:08 AM

    Hi Yeezvee.
    Maybe I was misquoting Donner a bit, but he said something about it in the end of this video. He says around 1.31. that maybe 80- 90% happened in the way the traditions describe them. I don't know what he thinks about when the Quran was written down.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koVaxbWBlr4&t=3981s
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10353 - August 16, 2021, 08:35 AM

    All of you probably know that Donner thinks the Quran is a composite of texts from different tribes of the Arabic peninsula and that it is mainly an ahistoric book. He also distances himself from the view that the Quran is of a later construct:

    "  Donner distances himself from the so–called “late–origins” hypothesis of the Qur’an, according to which the Qur’an,“far from being a product of western Arabia in the early seventh century C.E., actually crystallized slowly within the Muslim community over a period of two hundred years or more and mostly outside of Arabia,perhaps mainly in Iraq” (p. 54). For Donner, the Qur’an did coalesce very early in the life of the community in western Arabia, within no more than thirty years of Muḥammad’s death, though it may have included“passages of older texts that have been revised and reused”

    https://www.academia.edu/37744616/Review_of_Fred_M_DONNER_2010_Muhammad_and_the_Believers
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10354 - August 22, 2021, 08:31 AM

    Thread: https://twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1428343053425709057
    Quote
    "The Quran was composed in the poetic koine" is one of those ideas that kind of drops out of thin air, without even a shred of evidence being provided...

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10355 - August 22, 2021, 09:06 AM

    Thread: https://twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1428343053425709057

    "The Quran was composed in the poetic koine" is one of those ideas that kind of drops out of thin air, without even a shred of evidence being provided...

    what ??
    who said that??
    IS HE  WESTERN UNI PROFESSOR?? 
    does this s/he fellow not heard recitation of Quran?
    does s/he not read Quran  ?? 

       let me put some tube links here.....  tell him/her to listen

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkjNROBu6l0

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bj1ELmpdsTU

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LP0PspiKJ2o

    Off course Quran is poetic., 

    Let me click the tit link and  see who said that ...  FOOLS TALK NONSENSE


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10356 - August 26, 2021, 11:22 PM

    Aaron Butts
    The Catholic University of America

    "Once Again, the Twin Histories of Arabic and Aramaic (with a focus on Syriac)"

    "At the same time, however, by narrowing the scope to Syriac Christians. I hope to provide a more textured account of the twin histories of Arabic and Aramaic. The first two sections of the paper approach the topic at hand from a macro-view, though not as broad as Hoyland’s: In section one, I begin by discussing the use of Arabic among Syriac Christians before Islam; in section two, I then turn to the use of Syriac among Syriac Christians after Islam. In sections three and four, I approach these same topics from a micro-view by focusing on one particular location: the Naṣrid capital al-Ḥīrah (Syriac Ḥirtā), located on the Euphrates, not far from the modern city of al-Najāf in south central Iraq. This provides an opportunity to consider, on the one hand, the use of Arabic before Islam in a particular location among a specific population (especially among the ʿIbād) as well as, on the other hand, the use of Syriac in Islamic times. The latter discussion revolves around the famous translator Ḥunayn b. Isḥāq (808–873)."

    https://www.academia.edu/41022250/Once_Again_the_Twin_Histories_of_Arabic_and_Aramaic_with_a_focus_on_Syriac_
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10357 - August 27, 2021, 11:22 AM

    Aaron Butts
    The Catholic University of America

    "Once Again, the Twin Histories of Arabic and Aramaic (with a focus on Syriac)"

    "At the same time, however, by narrowing the scope to Syriac Christians. I hope to provide a more textured account of the twin histories of Arabic and Aramaic. The first two sections of the paper approach the topic at hand from a macro-view, though not as broad as Hoyland’s: In section one, I begin by discussing the use of Arabic among Syriac Christians before Islam; in section two, I then turn to the use of Syriac among Syriac Christians after Islam. In sections three and four, I approach these same topics from a micro-view by focusing on one particular location: the Naṣrid capital al-Ḥīrah (Syriac Ḥirtā), located on the Euphrates, not far from the modern city of al-Najāf in south central Iraq. This provides an opportunity to consider, on the one hand, the use of Arabic before Islam in a particular location among a specific population (especially among the ʿIbād) as well as, on the other hand, the use of Syriac in Islamic times. The latter discussion revolves around the famous translator Ḥunayn b. Isḥāq (808–873)."

    https://www.academia.edu/41022250/Once_Again_the_Twin_Histories_of_Arabic_and_Aramaic_with_a_focus_on_Syriac_


    So  dear Altara., I must agree with that pub., where the author and many before him said "that Arabic  language existed before Islam along with  other languages of middle east such as Syriac   or Hebrew.,  ".,  then would it not be possible to have  the written Arabic scripts/manuscripts  in the same lines as that if Syriac and Hebrew manuscripts before Islam   say before 5th century??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10358 - August 30, 2021, 08:15 AM

    " the written Arabic scripts/manuscripts"  did not exist before Islam. There was no literature.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10359 - August 30, 2021, 08:53 PM

    Sean Anthony - Prophetic Dominion, Umayyad Kingship: Species of Mulk in the Early Islamic Polity

    https://www.academia.edu/43929141/Prophetic_Dominion_Umayyad_Kingship_Species_of_Mulk_in_the_Early_Islamic_Polity
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10360 - August 31, 2021, 09:32 AM

    "One of the reasons that this finding is surprising is that early Arabic historical
    narratives and other literary sources – such as poetry and oratory – paint a different
    picture of the titles chosen by the rulers of the Islamic polity."

    Anthony still do not get that, what the  "Arabic historical narratives and other literary sources" paint, is not "history", it is not reality,  it is history according to what they were told by those who have recounted the story explaining the existence of the Quran (Mecca/Kaba/Muhammad/Abu Bakr) which will  lead (say they) to the debut of the conquest because of this story.
    But the conquest has nothing to do with this story (Mecca/Kaba/Muhammad/Abu Bakr). Nothing.
    So it is not "surprising" (at all) that :" that early Arabic historical narratives and other literary sources – such as poetry and oratory – paint a different picture of the titles chosen by the rulers of the Islamic polity." At all. It is only surprising when you are a Great Believer like Anthony.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10361 - August 31, 2021, 03:13 PM

    " the written Arabic scripts/manuscripts"  did not exist before Islam. There was no literature.


    In the usual Chronological history of Islam WHEN DID ISLAM BEGIN?? WHAT IS THE YEAR?  WHAT IS THE DATE dear Altara

    well pick the date from this list

    Quote
    545: Birth of Abdullah, the Holy Prophet's father.
    571: Birth of the Holy Prophet. Year of the Elephant. Invasion of Makkah by Abraha the Viceroy of Yemen, his retreat.
     610: The first revelation in the cave at Mt. Hira. The Holy Prophet is commissioned as the Messenger of God.
    632: Death of the Holy Prophet. Election of Hadrat Abu Bakr as the Caliph.
    634 Death of Hadrat Abu Bakr. Hadrat Umar Farooq becomes the Caliph
    644:  Martyrdom of Hadrat Umar. Hadrat Othman becomes the Caliph.
    656: Martyrdom of Hadrat Othman. Hadrat Ali becomes the Caliph.


    For me, AGAIN  FOR ME.,   

      Existence  of Arabic Quran manuscripts before they became the present book ITSELF IS A PROOF that that there was written Arabic manuscripts .. stories.. poems.. prose  whatever .. before Islam begin...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10362 - August 31, 2021, 11:36 PM

    well Altara says something on  that Sean W. Anthony's  review from the  book  The Umayyad World 1 that was edited by Andrew Marsham


    Quote
    "One of the reasons that this finding is surprising is that early Arabic historical  narratives and other literary sources – such as poetry and oratory – paint a different   picture of the titles chosen by the rulers of the Islamic polity."


    Anthony still do not get that, what the  "Arabic historical narratives and other literary sources" paint, is not "history", it is not reality,  it is history according to what they were told by those who have recounted the story explaining the existence of the Quran (Mecca/Kaba/Muhammad/Abu Bakr) which will  lead (say they) to the debut of the conquest because of this story.
     
    But the conquest has nothing to do with this story  (Mecca/Kaba/Muhammad/Abu Bakr). Nothing.

    So it is not "surprising" (at all) that :" that early Arabic historical narratives and other literary sources – such as poetry and oratory – paint a different picture of the titles chosen by the rulers of the Islamic polity." At all. It is only surprising when you are a Great Believer like Anthony.


    The only thing I agree with Altara is   the conquest has nothing to do with this story  (Mecca/Kaba/Muhammad/Abu Bakr). Nothing.

    And I question rest of Altara response on that Sean W. Anthony's  review   from that book
     
    CHAPTER THREE PROPHETIC DOMINION, UMAYYADKINGSHIP
    Varieties of mulk in the early Islamic period
    by Sean W. Anthony

    hello Altara .. Let me read through that Zeca link again  but what is that review  has to do with EXISTANCE OR NONEXISATNCE OF Mecca/Kaba/Muhammad/Abu Bakr) of early Islam??


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10363 - September 01, 2021, 08:37 PM

    Dear Altara,

    Thanks the article by Butts answers the position of Hima inscription within the others.
    Butts clearly provides how to see it within the others. kerr is right in his position (and van putten wrong)
    Indeed the question is how far is possible to define the identity of the groups who are using it.
    The hima inscription is made by people coming from arabia under roman control, they use that arabic and they travel.
    Additionally they are christianized which matches the quranic richness in syriac traditions and confirms that the audience had to be christianized (and authors too).
    Same the other inscriptions in the north.
    If they travel, they are also traders and this is also connected with the quranic language (why should people travel in the harsh desert in pre islamic arabia if not for pilgrimage or military or trade, but you go for pilgrimage to hima? Or for war?)

    Considering that the quranic paradise resembles persian noble lifestyle and banquets and that as far as I remember nazoreans is a disparaging way of calling Christians among the persians, is it reasonable to think that the quranic authors were familiar with that environment on one side and that the audience was familiar with the same?

    I was wondering if these elements may restrict the area to the ibads mentioned in the article and if other expressions may help narrow the circle.

    Hope I am not too much pushing conclusions


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10364 - September 01, 2021, 08:58 PM

    Audience of the Quran:

    It is not proven that the Quran initially had a wider audience. A limited audience (the editors, the friends, the literati Altara talks about), yes, but not the broader society.

    Thus the Quran tells us a lot about the author(s), but very little about the society around them.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10365 - September 02, 2021, 07:29 AM

    Audience of the Quran:

    1). It is not proven that the Quran initially had a wider audience. A limited audience (the editors, the friends, the literati Altara talks about), yes, but not the broader society.

    2). Thus the Quran tells us a lot about the author(s), but very little about the society around them.

    it is difficult for me to agree with those two points  dear mundi ., By that you are saying THERE WAS  NO ARABIC LANGUAGE, THERE WERE NO ARABIC SPEAKING JEWS AND THERE WERE  NO ARABIC SPEAKING CHRISTIANS  ACROSS THE MIDDLE EAST   dear mundi .,

    Let us take an example from Quran

    chapter 112 of Quran .. the four verses little surah

    Quote
    1. Say: He, Allah, is One.
    2. Allah is He on Whom all depend.
    3. He begets not, nor is He begotten.
    4. And none is like Him.


    that surah or those verses must have been there around the prayer places of middle east way before this one   for example  chapter 33  which is full of garbage

    Quote
    1. O Prophet! be careful of (your duty to) Allah and do not comply with (the wishes of) the unbelievers and the hypocrites; surely Allah is Knowing, Wise;

    2. And follow what is revealed to you from your Lord; surely Allah is Aware of what you do;

    3. And rely on Allah; and Allah is sufficient for a Protector.

    4. Allah has not made for any man two hearts within him; nor has He made your wives whose backs you liken to the backs of your mothers as your mothers, nor has He made those whom you assert to be your sons your real sons; these are the words of your mouths; and Allah speaks the truth and He guides to the way.

    5. Assert their relationship to their fathers; this is more equitable with Allah; but if you do not know their fathers, then they are your brethren in faith and your friends; and there is no blame on you concerning that in which you made a mistake, but (concerning) that which your hearts do purposely (blame may rest on you), and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

    6. The Prophet has a greater claim on the faithful than they have on themselves, and his wives are (as) their mothers; and the possessors of relationship have the better claim in the ordinance of Allah to inheritance, one with respect to another, than (other) believers, and (than) those who have fled (their homes), except that you do some good to your friends; this is written in the Book.

    7. And when We made a covenant with the prophets and with you, and with Nuh and Ibrahim and Musa and Isa, son of Marium, and We made with them a strong covenant

    8. That He may question the truthful of their truth, and He has prepared for the unbelievers a painful punishment.

    9. O you who believe! call to mind the favor of Allah to you when there came down upon you hosts, so We sent against them a strong wind and hosts, that you saw not, and Allah is Seeing what you do.

    10. When they came upon you from above you and from below you, and when the eyes turned dull, and the hearts rose up to the throats, and you began to think diverse thoughts of Allah.

    11. There the believers were tried and they were shaken with severe shaking.

    12. And when the hypocrites and those in whose hearts was a disease began to say: Allah and His Apostle did not promise us (victory) but only to deceive.

    13. And when a party of them said: O people of Yasrib! there is no place to stand for you (here), therefore go back; and a party of them asked permission of the prophet, saying. Surely our houses are exposed; and they were not exposed; they only desired to fly away.

    14. And if an entry were made upon them from the outlying parts of it, then they were asked to wage war, they would certainly have done it, and they would not have stayed in it but a little while.

    15. And certainly they had made a covenant with Allah before, that) they would not turn (their) backs; and Allah's covenant shall be inquired of.

    16. Say: Flight shall not do you any good if you fly from death or slaughter, and in that case you will not be allowed to enjoy yourselves but a little.

    17. Say: Who is it that can withhold you from Allah if He intends to do you evil, rather He intends to show you mercy? And they will not find for themselves besides Allah any guardian or a helper.

    18. Allah knows indeed those among you who hinder others and those who say to their brethren: Come to us; and they come not to the fight but a little,

    19. Being niggardly with respect to you; but when fear comes, you will see them looking to you, their eyes rolling like one swooning because of death; but when the fear is gone they smite you with sharp tongues, being niggardly of the good things. These have not believed, therefore Allah has made their doing naught; and this is easy to Allah.

    20. They think the allies are not gone, and if the allies should come (again) they would fain be in the deserts with the desert Arabs asking for news about you, and if they were among you they would not fight save a little.

    21. Certainly you have in the Apostle of Allah an excellent exemplar for him who hopes in Allah and the latter day and remembers Allah much.

    22. And when the believers saw the allies, they said: This is what Allah and His Apostle promised us, and Allah and His Apostle spoke the truth; and it only increased them in faith and submission.

    23. Of the believers are men who are true to the covenant which they made with Allah: so of them is he who accomplished his vow, and of them is he who yet waits, and they have not changed in the least

    24. That Allah may reward the truthful for their truth, and punish the hypocrites if He please or turn to them (mercifully); surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

    25. And Allah turned back the unbelievers in their rage; they did not obtain any advantage, and Allah sufficed the believers in fighting; and Allah is Strong, Mighty.

    26. And He drove down those of the followers of the Book who backed them from their fortresses and He cast awe into their hearts; some you killed and you took captive another part.

    27. And He made you heirs to their land and their dwellings and their property, and (to) a land which you have not yet trodden, and Allah has power over all things.

    28. O Prophet! say to your wives: If you desire this world's life and its adornment, then come, I will give you a provision and allow you to depart a goodly departing

    29. And if you desire Allah and His Apostle and the latter abode, then surely Allah has prepared for the doers of good among you a mighty reward.

    30. O wives of the prophet! whoever of you commits an open indecency, the punishment shall be increased to her doubly; and this is easy to Allah.

    31. And whoever of you is obedient to Allah and His Apostle and does good, We will give to her reward doubly, and We have prepared for her an honorable sustenance.


    32. O wives of the Prophet! you are not like any other of the women; If you will be on your guard, then be not soft in (your) speech, lest he in whose heart is a disease yearn; and speak a good word.

    33. And stay in your houses and do not display your finery like the displaying of the ignorance of yore; and keep up prayer, and pay the poor-rate, and obey Allah and His Apostle. Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House! and to purify you a (thorough) purifying.

    34. And keep to mind what is recited in your houses of the communications of Allah and the wisdom; surely Allah is Knower of subtleties, Aware.

    35. Surely the men who submit and the women who submit, and the believing men and the believing women, and the obeying men and the obeying women, and the truthful men and the truthful women, and the patient men and the patient women and the humble men and the humble women, and the almsgiving men and the almsgiving women, and the fasting men and the fasting women, and the men who guard their private parts and the women who guard, and the men who remember Allah much and the women who remember-- Allah has prepared for them forgiveness and a mighty reward.

    36. And it behoves not a believing man and a believing woman that they should have any choice in their matter when Allah and His Apostle have decided a matter; and whoever disobeys Allah and His Apostle, he surely strays off a manifest straying.

    37. And when you said to him to whom Allah had shown favor and to whom you had shown a favor: Keep your wife to yourself and be careful of (your duty to) Allah; and you concealed in your soul what Allah would bring to light, and you feared men, and Allah had a greater right that you should fear Him. But when Zaid had accomplished his want of her, We gave her to you as a wife, so that there should be no difficulty for the believers in respect of the wives of their adopted sons, when they have accomplished their want of them; and Allah's command shall be performed.

    38. There is no harm in the Prophet doing that which Allah has ordained for him; such has been the course of Allah with respect to those who have gone before; and the command of Allah is a decree that is made absolute:


    39. Those who deliver the messages of Allah and fear Him, and do not fear any one but Allah; and Allah is sufficient to take account.

    40. Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Apostle of Allah and the Last of the prophets; and Allah is cognizant of all things.

    41. O you who believe! remember Allah, remembering frequently,

    42. And glorify Him morning and evening.

    43. He it is Who sends His blessings on you, and (so do) His angels, that He may bring you forth out of utter darkness into the light; and He is Merciful to the believers.

    44. Their salutation on the day that they meet Him shall be, Peace, and He has prepared for them an honourable reward.

    45. O Prophet! surely We have sent you as a witness, and as a bearer of good news and as a warner,

    46. And as one inviting to Allah by His permission, and as a light-giving torch.

    47. And give to the believers the good news that they shall have a great grace from Allah.

    48. And be not compliant to the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and leave unregarded their annoying talk, and rely on Allah; and Allah is sufficient as a Protector.

    49. O you who believe! when you marry the believing women, then divorce them before you touch them, you have in their case no term which you should reckon; so make some provision for them and send them forth a goodly sending forth.

    50. O Prophet! surely We have made lawful to you your wives whom you have given their dowries, and those whom your right hand possesses out of those whom Allah has given to you as prisoners of war, and the daughters of your paternal uncles and the daughters of your paternal aunts, and the daughters of your maternal uncles and the daughters of your maternal aunts who fled with you; and a believing woman if she gave herself to the Prophet, if the Prophet desired to marry her-- specially for you, not for the (rest of) believers; We know what We have ordained for them concerning their wives and those whom their right hands possess in order that no blame may attach to you; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

    51. You may put off whom you please of them, and you may take to you whom you please, and whom you desire of those whom you had separated provisionally; no blame attaches to you; this is most proper, so that their eyes may be cool and they may not grieve, and that they should be pleased, all of them with what you give them, and Allah knows what is in your hearts; and Allah is Knowing, Forbearing.

    52. It is not allowed to you to take women afterwards, nor that you should change them for other wives, though their beauty be pleasing to you, except what your right hand possesses and Allah is Watchful over all things.

    53. O you who believe! do not enter the houses of the Prophet unless permission is given to you for a meal, not waiting for its cooking being finished-- but when you are invited, enter, and when you have taken the food, then disperse-- not seeking to listen to talk; surely this gives the Prophet trouble, but he forbears from you, and Allah does not forbear from the truth And when you ask of them any goods, ask of them from behind a curtain; this is purer for your hearts and (for) their hearts; and it does not behove you that you should give trouble to the Apostle of Allah, nor that you should marry his wives after him ever; surely this is grievous in the sight of Allah.

    54. If you do a thing openly or do it in secret, then surely Allah is Cognizant of all things.

    55. There is no blame on them in respect of their fathers, nor their brothers, nor their brothers' sons, nor their sisters' sons nor their own women, nor of what their right hands possess; and be careful of (your duty to) Allah; surely Allah is a witness of all things.

    56. Surely Allah and His angels bless the Prophet; O you who believe! call for (Divine) blessings on him and salute him with a (becoming) salutation.

    57. Surely (as for) those who speak evil things of Allah and His Apostle, Allah has cursed them in this world and the here after, and He has prepared for them a chastisement bringing disgrace.

    58. And those who speak evil things of the believing men and the believing women without their having earned (it), they are guilty indeed of a false accusation and a manifest sin.

    59. O Prophet! say to your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers that they let down upon them their over-garments; this will be more proper, that they may be known, and thus they will not be given trouble; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

    60. If the hypocrites and those in whose hearts is a disease and the agitators in the city do not desist, We shall most certainly set you over them, then they shall not be your neighbors in it but for a little while;

    61. Cursed: wherever they are found they shall be seized and murdered, a (horrible) murdering.

    62. (Such has been) the course of Allah with respect to those who have gone before; and you shall not find any change in the course of Allah.

    63. Men ask you about the hour; say: The knowledge of it is only with Allah, and what will make you comprehend that the hour may be nigh.

    64. Surely Allah has cursed the unbelievers and has prepared for them a burning fire,

    65. To abide therein for a long time; they shall not find a protector or a helper.

    66. On the day when their faces shall be turned back into the fire, they shall say: O would that we had obeyed Allah and obeyed the Apostle!

    67. And they shall say: O our Lord! surely we obeyed our leaders and our great men, so they led us astray from the path;

    68. O our Lord! give them a double punishment and curse them with a great curse.

    69. O you who believe! be not like those who spoke evil things of Musa, but Allah cleared him of what they said, and he was worthy of regard with Allah.

    70. O you who believe! be careful of (your duty to) Allah and speak the right word,

    71. He will put your deeds into a right state for you, and forgive you your faults; and whoever obeys Allah and His Apostle, he indeed achieves a mighty success.

    72. Surely We offered the trust to the heavens and the earth and the mountains, but they refused to be unfaithful to it and feared from it, and man has turned unfaithful to it; surely he is unjust, ignorant;

    73. So Allah will chastise the hypocritical men and the hypocritical women and the polytheistic men and the polytheistic women, and Allah will turn (mercifully) to the believing men and believing women, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.


    Many of such highlighted verses on that above surah 33 (and we find such verses here and there in some other chapters also)must have been added in to Quran at much later times unlike the other one the surah 112

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10366 - September 02, 2021, 07:37 AM

    I agree that we cannot define if the audience was a single individual or more
    Indeed if the audience had to understand the message of the surah  they had to share a hood amount of the same knowledge of the author
    Of course the author is on a different level, but the audience of the folios in their original use had to understand the language  the allusions etc..
    The paradise description made by recalling the perasian lifestyle must have had some effect in the minds of the audience.
    If the audience had a different root desire, that description would have been ineffective or even negative.
    The audience had to be attracted to the type of drinks, food, living conditions, etc..  and it means they were witnessing thus type of luxury but were distant.
    In the imagination of the audience those descriptions were effective becouse they saw happiness in that context
    If the audience had been in Spain, probably they would not have been attracted by that paradise  or its description would have no meaning to them, nor any subconscious effect.
    Like the use of nasara, or istabraq or the trade oriented language
    If the surah are homiletic and intended to pierce the attention of the audience  the author had to use the language and the point of view of the audience.
    It is more probable that author studied the people he needed to convince
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10367 - September 02, 2021, 09:36 AM

    Dear Altara,

    Thanks the article by Butts answers the position of Hima inscription within the others.
    Butts clearly provides how to see it within the others. kerr is right in his position (and van putten wrong).

    What says MVP exactly?
    Quote
    Indeed the question is how far is possible to define the identity of the groups who are using it.
    The hima inscription is made by people coming from arabia under roman control, they use that arabic and they travel.

    They travel to Yemen.
    Quote
    Additionally they are christianized which matches the quranic richness in syriac traditions and confirms that the audience had to be christianized (and authors too).


    The (first) audience/readers of the Quran is not what says the narratives : they are Christians. There is no Christians in Mecca/Medina/Kaba. Because there is no Mecca before Islam.

    Quote
    Same the other inscriptions in the north.
    If they travel, they are also traders and this is also connected with the quranic language (why should people travel in the harsh desert in pre islamic arabia if not for pilgrimage or military or trade, but you go for pilgrimage to hima? Or for war?)


    The Quranic language knows perfectly well the generic Arab mentality and sociology. It is rather mandatory as it is written for Arabophone people who is the sole target of the texts.

    Quote
    Considering that the quranic paradise resembles persian noble lifestyle and banquets and that as far as I remember nazoreans is a disparaging way of calling Christians among the persians, is it reasonable to think that the quranic authors were familiar with that environment on one side and that the audience was familiar with the same?


    It is reasonable.

    Quote
    I was wondering if these elements may restrict the area to the ibads mentioned in the article and if other expressions may help narrow the circle.


    Iraq is a (not 'the')  key point of our topic.

    Quote
    Hope I am not too much pushing conclusions


    No.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10368 - September 02, 2021, 09:49 AM

    Audience of the Quran:

    It is not proven that the Quran initially had a wider audience. A limited audience (the editors, the friends, the literati Altara talks about), yes, but not the broader society.

    Elaborate.


    Quote
    Thus the Quran tells us a lot about the author(s), but very little about the society around them.


    The Quran tells us a lot about the target and about the author(s) who are  literati.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10369 - September 02, 2021, 10:55 AM

    well I am not going leave Altara and his statements on early Islam
    .............................
    Quote
    The (first) audience/readers of the Quran is not what says the narratives : they are Christians.

    There is no Christians in Mecca/Medina/Kaba. Because there is no Mecca before Islam.

    well again I fully agree with that song of Islam that

    no Mecca  no Medina No Muhammad Before Islam  Song .,

    but your point of there were No Christians or No Jews in Saudi towns or in that fertile Crescent  land of middle  east that you see down here is questionable



    Quote
    The Quranic language knows perfectly well the generic Arab mentality and sociology. It is rather mandatory as it is written for Arabophone people who is the sole target of the texts.


    I completely disagree with that in the sense that Quranic language you are speaking  above as "Arab mentality and sociology ....  or  Arabophone"   comes out because YOU ARE SELECTIVELY PICKING POLITICALLY SAVVY  VERSES FROM QURAN to say that dear Altara ..

    correct me if I am wrong

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10370 - September 02, 2021, 02:27 PM

    Quote
    but your point of there were No Christians or No Jews in Saudi towns


    Yes Mecca/Yathrib.
    1/ Mecca did not exist.
    2/ No attestations of Christians and Jews in Yathrib
    3/ No attestations of Christians and Jews around the supposed Mecca and Yathrib.
    4/ Jews & Christians in Yemen, Iraq, Palestine.
    5/ Christians in the north eastern Peninsula coast under Iraq.

    Quote
    I completely disagree with that in the sense that Quranic language you are speaking  above as "Arab mentality and sociology ....  or  Arabophone"   comes out because YOU ARE SELECTIVELY PICKING POLITICALLY SAVVY  VERSES FROM QURAN to say that dear Altara ..


    At all.
    The Quranic language knows perfectly well the generic, banal,  Arab mentality and sociology. It is rather mandatory since it is written for Arabophone people who is the sole target of the texts.

    Quote
    correct me if I am wrong


    Done.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10371 - September 02, 2021, 07:01 PM

    Dear Altare

    this tweet

    https://mobile.twitter.com/phdnix/status/1415001180254740489?s=21

    van Putten is asked about Kerr position regarding the origin of the quranic arabic in the north and he disregards Kerr position quickly by arguing the the hima inscription testifies that the arabic of the quran is used in the south
    he is quite adamant in his comment
    indeed looks like the either he missed to look at the overall pattern of the arabic inscriptions similar to the quranic one, that he missed the context in which the hima inscription is located and that he missed the dating of the inscription

    i do not know how to understand his position within Islamic studies
    I understand that he is quite often inquired by apologists
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10372 - September 02, 2021, 07:10 PM

    Professionally, putting the Quran in the North  and spelling out NOT Mecca is probably academic suicide. I wonder how much that plays in the subconciousness. Open question.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10373 - September 03, 2021, 09:31 AM

    well Altara as usual evades the question and throws rocks  at questions  ., And and mundi says something strange
    Professionally, putting the Quran in the North  and spelling out NOT Mecca is probably academic suicide. I wonder how much that plays in the subconciousness. Open question.

    Hi mundi .. just curious., .. what actually do you mean by "putting the Quran in the North"

    North of what ?   north of present Mecca.......or so-called Yatrhib  which people (academics and  faith heads) assume that Yathrib became Medina??

    and that  North of Mecca could be anywhere in the towns of that time in the lands of countries like Israel /Palestine  ... or even Syria ..Jordan

    And why would putting origins of Quran  in north BUT NOT FROM the present Mecca will be  a Academic Suicide  and end of the carrier of that Professor??  You mean Saudi oil money will crush the guy academically or even literally??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10374 - September 03, 2021, 10:01 AM

    Dear Altara

    this tweet

    https://mobile.twitter.com/phdnix/status/1415001180254740489?s=21

    van Putten is asked about Kerr position regarding the origin of the quranic arabic in the north and he disregards Kerr position quickly by arguing the the hima inscription testifies that the arabic of the quran is used in the south
    he is quite adamant in his comment


    MVP is agree with Kerr : both says the same thing  : Nabatean script is the origin.  The issue is the word 'Hijaz'. What is that? MVP uses a word that has no real clear meaning, invented by Muslims, even in Islamic times . Where are the frontiers of 'Hijaz'? Nobody knows. Hegra, Al Ula are in Hijaz? Najran is in 'Hijaz'?
    MVP does not get that his use of this word is problematic: this word did not exist before Islam, it is a Muslim invention word after the death of Zubayr to name the 'Place of the Prophet' that he had claimed hold. That is 'Hijaz'.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10375 - September 03, 2021, 10:22 AM

    Professionally, putting the Quran in the North  and spelling out NOT Mecca is probably academic suicide.


    Yes. After the Wansbrough, Crone, Gallez episodes, it is over.

    Quote
    I wonder how much that plays in the subconsciousness. Open question.


    Very much. Plus, there is the Samuel Paty like menace …

    I consider that many scholars in the field know the truth about our topic.  They simply will never state it. Never. For these both reasons first, and afterwards, others.
    Look to Segovia: he left Islamic Studies and came back to what he was trained: philosophy. I'm pretty sure that he left for those reasons: he was slowly but surely becoming a 'people' in the field because of his revisionism. He felt the danger. He left.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10376 - September 03, 2021, 10:55 AM

    Quote
    Yes Mecca/Yathrib.
    1/ Mecca did not exist.
    2/ No attestations of Christians and Jews in Yathrib
    3/ No attestations of Christians and Jews around the supposed Mecca and Yathrib.
    4/ Jews & Christians in Yemen, Iraq, Palestine.
    5/ Christians in the north eastern Peninsula coast under Iraq.


    Quote
    At all.
    The Quranic language knows perfectly well the generic, banal,  Arab mentality and sociology. It is rather mandatory since it is written for Arabophone people who is the sole target of the texts.


    Quote
    Done.


    Altara responds with those three quotes for this post
    https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=27568.msg891924#msg891924

     Cheesy Cheesy    well let me dig bit  deeper and explore   Altara  response in backwards
    Quote
    yeez:  correct me if I am wrong

    Alt:  Done.

    No................noo .................Nope .. ...........NOT DONE...........  not answered
    Quote
    yeez: I completely disagree with that in the sense that Quranic language you are speaking  above as "Arab mentality and sociology ....  or  Arabophone"   comes out because YOU ARE SELECTIVELY PICKING POLITICALLY SAVVY  VERSES FROM QURAN to say that dear Altara ..

    Alt: At all.
    The Quranic language knows perfectly well the generic, banal,  Arab mentality and sociology. It is rather mandatory since it is written for Arabophone people who is the sole target of the texts
    .

    what Quranic language ?  what generic, banal,  Arab mentality /sociology?  What Arabophone people  are you talking dear Altara?

    WHAT DO YOU HAVE IN QURAN WITH REFERNCE TO SO-CALLED ARAB PEOPLE OF THAT TIME?  Throw some Quran verses on that to prove your point please  .,

    Who were Arabs  during those days  dear Altara??  let me add these Quran verses here for further discussion  
    Quote
    Surely We have revealed it-- an arabic Quran-- that you may understand.  ....... (Suarh Yusuf,   Verse #2 )

    And thus have We revealed it, a true judgment in arabic, and if you follow their low desires after what has come to you of knowledge, you shall not have against Allah any guardian or a protector..............(Surah  Ar-Ra'd,   Verse #37)

    And certainly We know that they say: Only a mortal teaches him. The tongue of him whom they reproach is barbarous, and this is clear arabic tongue. .....(Surah  An-Nahl,  Verse #103)

    And thus have We sent it down an arabic Quran, and have distinctly set forth therein of threats that they may guard (against evil) or that it may produce a reminder for them...........(Surah Taa-Haa, , Verse #113)

     In plain arabic language...........(Surah  Ash-Shu'araa,  Verse #195)

     They think the allies are not gone, and if the allies should come (again) they would fain be in the deserts with the desert arabs asking for news about you, and if they were among you they would not fight save a little..............(Surah  Al-Ahzaab,   Verse #20)

    An arabic Quran without any crookedness, that they may guard (against evil).........(Surah , Az-Zumar,   Verse #28)

    A Book of which the verses are made plain, an arabic Quran for a people who know:......(Surah Fussilat, , Verse #3)

    And if We had made it a Quran in a foreign tongue, they would certainly have said: Why have not its communications been made clear? What! a foreign (tongue) and an arabian! Say: It is to those who believe a guidance and a healing; and (as for) those who do not believe, there is a heaviness in their ears and it is obscure to them; these shall be called to from a far-off place......(Surah Fussilat,  Verse #44)

    And thus have We revealed to you an arabic Quran, that you may warn the mother city and those around it, and that you may give warning of the day of gathering together wherein is no doubt; a party shall be in the garden and (another) party in the burning fire........(Surah  Ash-Shura, Verse #7)

    Surely We have made it an arabic Quran that you may understand.......(Surah , Az-Zukhruf,  , Verse #3)

    And before it the Book of Musa was a guide and a mercy: and this is a Book verifying (it) in the arabic language that it may warn those who are unjust and as good news for the doers of good...............(Surah  Al-Ahqaf,   Verse #12)


    So there are ~ 12 Quran verses which uses that word  Arab/Arabic (often repeated) .,  and dear Altara for that you have to say  .... "Arab mentality and sociology ....  or  Arabophone"....  etc..etc??   THAT IS ABSURD .,  Is it not absurd for a historian /history explorer to say that??

    Now   about that your favorite song..

    Mecca.. Medina.. Muhammad .. Zam-zam....
    it is all zam zam
    zam zam water Islamic  history

    .. the first quote of your response

    well I am not going leave Altara and his statements on early Islam There is no Christians in Mecca/Medina/Kaba. Because there is no Mecca before Islam.
    well again I fully agree with that song of Islam that

    no Mecca  no Medina No Muhammad Before Islam  Song .,

    but your point of there were No Christians or No Jews in Saudi towns or in that fertile Crescent  land of middle  east that you see down here is questionable

    (Clicky for piccy!) 


    You just evaded the discussion  by saying this
    Quote
    Alt : Yes Mecca/Yathrib.
    1/ Mecca did not exist.
    2/ No attestations of Christians and Jews in Yathrib
    3/ No attestations of Christians and Jews around the supposed Mecca and Yathrib.
    4/ Jews & Christians in Yemen, Iraq, Palestine.
    5/ Christians in the north eastern Peninsula coast under Iraq.

    Who is talking about the Christians or Jews of  Mecca and that Yatrib?  Not  me ...
    And  who knows where  that Yatrib town of that time was??
     It  could have been present  in that GREEN CRESCENT  where plenty of Christians and Jewish folks were living ., ..

    So Your point 1, 2  and point 3 in the above response of yours are irrelevant to me dear Altara

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10377 - September 03, 2021, 01:20 PM

    Quote
    what Quranic language ?  what generic, banal,  Arab mentality /sociology?  What Arabophone people  are you talking dear Altara?

     
    It seems that the Arabophone people of the 7th c. who read the Quran had not the issues you have: they knew that the Quran was talking about themselves and not Eskimos. The first step being the Arabic language.
    Quote
    WHAT DO YOU HAVE IN QURAN WITH REFERNCE TO SO-CALLED ARAB PEOPLE OF THAT TIME?  Throw some Quran verses on that to prove your point please  .,

     
    You have many verses. I've no time to detail them here.

    Quote
    Who were Arabs  during those days  dear Altara??


    Maternal arabophone people.


    Quote
    So there are ~ 12 Quran verses which uses that word  Arab/Arabic (often repeated) .,  and dear Altara for that you have to say  .... "Arab mentality and sociology ....  or  Arabophone"....  etc..etc??   THAT IS ABSURD .,  Is it not absurd for a historian /history explorer to say that??


    At all. The Quranic author(s) address his Christian Arab reader of the 6,7th c depicting him or people he knows with mainstream Arab mentality of the time: harshness,  poetry, commerce, etc.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10378 - September 03, 2021, 03:21 PM

    Thanks Altara,

    I agree that the definition of hijaz is quite undefined.
    Indeed the question made to van Putten refers to the suggestion made by kerr that the authorship of the quran is to be located "north" alluding to a different geographical location.

    Van Putten is sarcastically refuting Kerr, ignoring willingly or unwillingly that the hima inscription is attributed to northern arabs.

    The definition if hijaz is marginal here...


    About the "mentality" of the christian arabs before islam, what may be a good source to understand it?


    About the dating of the surah, what may suggest an earlier dating than the tradition? Even if we set aside the narrative, what may suggest that the surah were initially composed second half of 6th century?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10379 - September 03, 2021, 05:32 PM

    Sorry to say this BUT  YOU ARE LOOSING THE PLOT OF YOUR BOOK  and and what are you saying down here dear Altara

    It seems that the Arabophone people of the 7th c. who read the Quran had not the issues you have: they knew that the Quran was talking about themselves and not Eskimos. The first step being the Arabic language.
     
    You have many verses. I've no time to detail them here.

    Maternal arabophone people.

    At all. The Quranic author(s) address his Christian Arab reader of the 6,7th c depicting him or people he knows with mainstream Arab mentality of the time: harshness,  poetry, commerce, etc.


    Maternal Arabphones?? .......  what happened to Paternal  Arabphones?

    No  no....Nooo.. I am not sure what Quran you are reading but you don't have many verses .. THERE ARE ONLY 12 VERSES that speack about Arabic/ Arbs and I put them in that post .,

    and those Arabphones READ QURAN in 7th century ?  and they were CHRSTIAN ARAB READERS?   

    You mean they were Christians and Arabs??  And they were experts in reading Quran in 6/7th century ??

     .. And and that written Quranic Arabic language scripted in 6th century., and already these nominal Christian Arabs living in Arabia, Yemen, Iraq, Syria, Palestine became experts in Arabic language analysis and understanding of Quran?   where as the book itself published in 6th/7th century??

    Ok., So they were Christian  Arabs., and they were experts of Arabic script and language ......So be it.,   Then what about Jewish Arabs and Pagan Arabs of those lands?? were they also experts in reading writing Quranic Arabic language or   is it  only limited to Christian Arabs??

    As far as that  "not Eskimos"  is concerned .,  Brain wash  eskimos young kids with selective  Quran verses., teach bit of Arabic  and say some Romans robing you ... THEY WILL ALSO BECOME ARAB  OF ISLAMISTS . Not Muslims of Quran....  I see this all over the world since 9th century all the way to day in Nigeria dear Altara., that is a different problem of Islam nothing to do with Quranic history or Quran....
     

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
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