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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10200 - May 23, 2021, 05:29 PM

    Back to the beginning. If Jews could live with Sol Invictus at the center of their synagogues, why not with Jesus as a secondary prophet?


    Sol Invictus is a Jewish figure?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10201 - May 23, 2021, 06:06 PM

    Yeez,

    Sorry for not answering your question. I was kind of focussed on Altara bc we had this same round of questioning a few months ago... With the same outcome :-(

    We started the discussion by  concluding that the Quran was more Jewish than Christian. The author must have been very familiar with Jewish Talmud etc.... On top of that there is a layer of Northern Christian writing (S 19 as Dye shows).

    So I really dont know anymore where Altara disagrees.

    Can you repeat your Q Yeez?
    .
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10202 - May 23, 2021, 07:49 PM

    Gabriel S. Reynolds here links to a video by Ahmad Al-Jallad, where he
     suggests ʿīsā has an independent history linked to Ancient North Arabian. Could this be used as an argument for the Quran coming  from North Arabia and not Hijaz??
    https://twitter.com/GabrielSaidR/status/1395717155400847360?s=20
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10203 - May 23, 2021, 08:00 PM

    Quote
    Could this be used as an argument for the Quran coming  from North Arabia and not Hijaz


    I think so... In fact, idont know any convincing arguments to link the Quran to the Hijaz, do you?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10204 - May 23, 2021, 08:55 PM

    Quote
    We started the discussion by  concluding that the Quran was more Jewish than Christian. The author must have been very familiar with Jewish Talmud etc.. On top of that there is a layer of Northern Christian writing (S 19 as Dye shows).

    Yes they are familiar with post 70 Jewish writings.
    The question is to what extent post 70 Jewish writings (all in Hebrew/ Syriac)  are available to non Jews to read and study?
    And how Northern Christians (Jacobite, Chalcedonian, Nestorian) could have added "Christian" writings " (S 19 as Dye shows)" on a Jewish text.

    Quote
    So I really dont know anymore where Altara disagrees.


    I disagree about your interpretation of the synagogues panels.  I do not consider them as pagans, but Jewish.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10205 - May 24, 2021, 08:58 AM

     For Judaism Jesus is boiling in its excrements in Hell. Knowing this, how Jewish scholars of that time could have written down a praised Jesus as one can see in the Quran?
    Quote
    I was trying to understand and respond to the  above post of Altara but those highlighted words pulled me through the excrements of hell
    why would you say that dear Altara??
    WHAT IS JUDAISM??
    WHAT ARE ITS TEXTS??  .. RELIGIOUS/ORAL  whatever??
    And what are those texts have to do with Jesus Christ?


    1/I (just) say why people who do not like someone in their texts (Talmud) would praised him in another one (Quran), I was asking Mundi to explain this to me.
    2/ Well... The Biblical God is coming from it.
    3/Talmud (for the boiling) and Toledot Yeshu for another story of Jesus : Academia is your friend.
    4/ They staged him as a Jew who erred Israel.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10206 - May 24, 2021, 02:04 PM

    Gabriel S. Reynolds here links to a video by Ahmad Al-Jallad, where he
     suggests ʿīsā has an independent history linked to Ancient North Arabian. Could this be used as an argument for the Quran coming  from North Arabia and not Hijaz??
    https://twitter.com/GabrielSaidR/status/1395717155400847360?s=20


    Yes, it is an interesting video.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10207 - May 24, 2021, 03:42 PM

    Hi Mundi!
    I have no other convincing arguments for linking the Quran to Hijaz, but it seems to me that most scholars (except Patricia Crone???) do believe that it originated in Hijaz
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10208 - May 24, 2021, 04:02 PM

    For Judaism Jesus is boiling in its excrements in Hell. Knowing this, how Jewish scholars of that time could have written down a praised Jesus as one can see in the Quran?

    dear Altara ., I am a simple guy  and I try to simplify  complicated religious junk and try to understand it  with reference to its time line., And I question everything...

    You say that some Juicily jews say/said
    Quote
    ..... For Judaism "Jesus is boiling in its excrements in Hell".........

    And I ask you ., Did Judaism come before Christ or after Christ?? ., If Christ Came AFTER JUDAISM., then Judaism can not say that.,   May be it was not Judaism that said those words.,  It could be from Juicism from some politically savvy  jew... or rabanism.. or whateverism ..

    I am under the impression the BOOKS OF OT are bedrock of Judaism  nor rest of of hadth Judaism like hadith of Islam., CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG 

    Quote
    1/I (just) say why people who do not like someone in their texts (Talmud) would praised him in another one (Quran), I was asking Mundi to explain this to me.

      what you say there is very interesting., Are you indirectly saying to me some smart Jewish guy dictated Quran  to oppose some other juicy jew who may have said "Jesus is boiling in its excrements in Hell"

    Quote
    2/ Well... The Biblical God is coming from it.
    3/Talmud (for the boiling) and Toledot Yeshu for another story of Jesus : Academia is your friend.
    4/ They staged him as a Jew who erred Israel.

    well I can not go on reading what folks wrote about Jesus Christ .. WHETHER HE WAS REAL OR JUST A STORY...  there are many stories of Jesus ., and I agree with you some Juicy Jews may have staged him as a Jew who erred Israel.., and FOR THAT MILLIONS OF JEWISH FOLKS PAYED HEAVY PRICE ...

    Indeed reading your arguments and your ideas on religions and their stories is a pleasure as well as educational.. Thank you.. and I look forward reading your book .. In French or otherwise.,

    I actually like French Fries  with my own spices sprinkled on them   Cheesy

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10209 - May 24, 2021, 08:42 PM

    Yeez,

    Quote
    1/I (just) say why people who do not like someone in their texts (Talmud) would praised him in another one (Quran), I was asking Mundi to explain this to me.


    Bc there was not one judaism, just as there is/was not one christianity.

    Eg American evangelicals align themselves with Jews to build on the Temple mount for the end of times to come (or is it the second coming, who knows), Catholics don t have this idea at all.

    Just as there are big differences now, there were big differences in the Jewish religion. Some despised Jesus, some saw a lower prophet in him. Doesnt that seem plausible?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10210 - May 25, 2021, 12:17 PM

    1/I (just) say why people who do not like someone in their texts (Talmud) would praised him in another one (Quran), I was asking Mundi to explain this to me.
    Quote
    Bc there was not one judaism, just as there is/was not one christianity.


    Apart your personal interpretation of the synagogues mosaics you have no attestation of this. Otherwise there is also the hostility (in the Quran) toward generic Jews which are, interestingly, for the most part, accusations coming from Christianity.

    Quote
    Some despised Jesus, some saw a lower prophet in him. Doesnt that seem plausible?


    All is plausible from the moment where you have sources to ground this plausibility. Do we have some?
    The response is no. Moreover, if you were right (and you could, I'm against nothing) an allusion to Jesus (image for example since there is Helios/Sol Invictus) could be in those synagogues. Is there one?
    The response is no.  Is there allusion somewhere of Jews loving the prophet Jesus, etc., in the 5,6,7th c.? The response is no.
    Each question has a response: no. At the end I consider that "Some despised Jesus, some saw a lower prophet in him. " is grounded by nothing and I set it aside. The explanation is therefore elsewhere.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10211 - May 25, 2021, 05:21 PM

    This is very interesting from you two dear mundi and Altara... 
    Quote
    Yeez,

    Bc there was not one judaism, just as there is/was not one christianity.

    Eg American evangelicals align themselves with Jews to build on the Temple mount for the end of times to come (or is it the second coming, who knows), Catholics don t have this idea at all. judaism

    Just as there are big differences now, there were big differences in the Jewish religion. Some despised Jesus, some saw a lower prophet in him. Doesn't that seem plausible?

    Quote
    1/I (just) say why people who do not like someone in their texts (Talmud) would praised him in another one (Quran), I was asking Mundi to explain this to me.

    Apart your personal interpretation of the synagogues mosaics you have no attestation of this. Otherwise there is also the hostility (in the Quran) toward generic Jews which are, interestingly, for the most part, accusations coming from Christianity.

    All is plausible from the moment where you have sources to ground this plausibility. Do we have some?
    The response is no. Moreover, if you were right (and you could, I'm against nothing) an allusion to Jesus (image for example since there is Helios/Sol Invictus) could be in those synagogues. Is there one?
    The response is no.  Is there allusion somewhere of Jews loving the prophet Jesus, etc., in the 5,6,7th c.? The response is no.
    Each question has a response: no. At the end I consider that "Some despised Jesus, some saw a lower prophet in him. " is grounded by nothing and I set it aside. The explanation is therefore elsewhere.



    dear Altara., In those highlighted words., I know you were asking mundi ., but that is such an important point., I am trying to probe further to get some thoughts from you on that  point., That is the reason I was  asking questions in the earlier post .. but you did not answer ., So I wonder about your response for those questions..at https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=27568.msg891206#msg891206.

    I also kind of like above mundi response...... Now another question for you is/are

    ............" during those turbulent times starting from the birth /death of Prophet of Christianity namely "Jesus Christ" (real or imaginary ) to the birth/death of Prophet of Islam namely "Muhammad" (real or imaginary )..........

    potentially there is chance that .... there were   many sects of   Judaism  OR may be we should call it as  "MANY SECTS OF RABBANISMS" with different Jewish rabbis preaching/interpreting OT in their own way for their respective followers...

    Do you completely neglect that possibility dear Altara??
    "
    Again on these words of yours
    Quote
      1/I (just) say why people who do not like someone in their texts (Talmud) would praised him in another one (Quran)

    So in this  "Talmud Vs Quran"

     Do you think some  of those statements I see in Quran are actually come from Talmud?  if they are ., then., 

    Are they from  the Babylonian Talmud or are they from   Jerusalem Talmud??

    Damn so many possibilities and so many problems in the Origins of Quran

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10212 - May 25, 2021, 06:24 PM

    We see that there are a lot of parallels with Talmud and co. in the Quran. Only someone very close to judaism could have produced that.

    Sol Invictus in the synagogues of course doesnt link Jesus to a Jewish sect. Sol shows that serious "heresy" was going round in judaism. It shows that we shouldnt exclude a diverse Judaism as having contributed significantly to the Quran.

    If we didnt have the material evidence of Sol in the synagogues, which combination would have been the most likely:

    1/ Jews honoring Sol Invictus
    or
    2/ Jews honoring Jesus making him a lower prophet.

    I think all academics would have voted 2. But we know there is proof for 1/ but not yet for 2/. Or is there? And is this proof the Quran?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10213 - May 25, 2021, 09:28 PM

    Quote
    during those turbulent times starting from the birth /death of Prophet of Christianity namely "Jesus Christ" (real or imaginary ) to the birth/death of Prophet of Islam namely "Muhammad" (real or imaginary )….

    potentially there is chance that …. 1) there were many sects of   Judaism  2)OR may be we should call it as  "MANY SECTS OF RABBANISMS" with different Jewish rabbis preaching/interpreting OT in their own way for their respective followers...

    Do you completely neglect that possibility dear Altara??


    1/ Judaism is a political system of a certain people which was never clearly intended to spread elsewhere. Yet, it does in many ways. Sometimes some parts of it, sometimes all, etc. A political system is an ensemble of laws and a rule of law driven by certain ethics laws. Those ones have changed through time (adoption of democracy, end of slavery, etc)
    2/ Yes I set aside "different Jewish rabbis preaching/interpreting OT in their own way for their respective followers" because there is no sources until now.

    Quote
    We see that there are a lot of parallels with Talmud and co. in the Quran. Only someone very close to Judaism could have produced that.

     or knowing very well this literature and the Christian one.
    Quote
    Do you think some  of those statements I see in Quran are actually come from Talmud?  if they are ., then.,
    Are they from  the Babylonian Talmud or are they from   Jerusalem Talmud??


    1/ Yes, all scholars have remarked that.
    2/ Mainly Iraqi Talmud.
    3/ There's also some Midrashic connections.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10214 - May 26, 2021, 10:53 AM

    Quote
    Sol Invictus in the synagogues of course doesnt link Jesus to a Jewish sect.

     

    Whereras he should if heretic Jews had written down Quranic texts. Your theory, in fact, is the same as Gallez. Of course, there is no Jesus anywhere in those synagogues.


    Quote
    Sol shows that serious "heresy" was going round in judaism.

     
    According to you.
    It especially shows the absence of training from your part. You have reach your limits as historian ; it's quite normal, you've not been trained, therefore at a certain moment, your absence of training emerges.

    Quote
    It shows that we shouldnt exclude a diverse Judaism as having contributed significantly to the Quran.


    We should (totally) exclude Gallez theory.

    Quote
    If we didnt have the material evidence of Sol in the synagogues, which combination would have been the most likely:
    1/ Jews honoring Sol Invictus
    or
    2/ Jews honoring Jesus making him a lower prophet.

    I think all academics would have voted 2.


    You're wrong. The Jewish skepticism (to not say more) about Jesus is heavily documented and scholars knows it very well. Moreover, the simple fact that you seriously state what you state, shows the lack of training, especially in Judaism. I do not blame you, I just point it.

    Quote
    But we know there is proof for 1/ but not yet for 2/. Or is there? And is this proof the Quran?


    Gallez is (exactly) on the same mood: the proof of what he says is the Quran.  Circular reasoning.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10215 - May 26, 2021, 12:16 PM


    1/ Judaism is a political system of a certain people which was never clearly intended to spread elsewhere. 

      Cheesy Cheesy  Damn you ..  some of your posts and statements have SHOCK VALUE.. shock people dear  Altara..

    On those words( I did not even read rest of your response)) ..   If Judaism is a political system organized by certain smart people ., Then

    1) what is your opinion on Christianity

    2). I am assuming that you will say Islam like  Judaism is  also a political system organized by certain smart people

    correct if my assumption is wrong on the 2nd point

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10216 - May 26, 2021, 04:26 PM

    Christianity is the comprehension of people about some texts written down in Greek by certain Jews
    Islam is the comprehension of people about some texts that they had in their hand.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10217 - May 30, 2021, 11:55 AM

    2). Christianity is the comprehension of people about some texts written down in Greek by certain Jews

    3). Islam is the comprehension of people about some texts that they had in their hand.

    1, 2, 3  .. we drifted away too far from the folder Qur'anic studies today dear Altara.. but all   1, 2, 3 are related in many ways..  So at the end ... the definitions for the Abrahamic faiths  from you are
    Quote
    1).   Judaism is a political system of a certain people which was never clearly intended to spread elsewhere.

    2). Christianity is the comprehension of people about some texts written down in Greek by certain Jews

    3). Islam is the comprehension of people about some texts that they had in their hand.


    you added the statements below to only  Judaism  but NOT to Christianity and Islam
    Quote
    ((Yet, it does in many ways. Sometimes some parts of it, sometimes all, etc. A political system is an ensemble of laws and a rule of law driven by certain ethics laws. Those ones have changed through time (adoption of democracy, end of slavery, etc))

     I wonder why? 

    I guess we can also add the above words of yours to  the other two Abrahamic  faiths.. as well as to other faiths   Can't we??
     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religious_populations  such as   
    Quote
    Judaism—14.7 million[7]   0.18%
    Christians—2.2 billion followers (representing 31.5% of the world's population)
    Muslims—1.6 billion (23.2%)
    Hindus—1 billion (15.0%)
    Buddhists—500 million (7.1%)
    Sikhism—26 million   0.30%
    Baháʼí—5.0 million[9]   0.07%
    Jainism—4.2 million   0.05%
    Shinto — 4.0 million       0.05%
    Quote
    Indigenous religions—400 million (5.9%)
    Other religions—58 million (0.8%)
    African traditional religions—   100 million 1.2%
    Spiritism   —14.5 million[8]   0.18%
    Cao Dai—   4.0 million   0.05%
    Zoroastrianism—   2.6 million   0.03%
    Tenrikyo—   2.0 million   0.02%
    Animism   —1.9 million   0.02%
    Druze—   1.2 million   0.015%
    Neo-Paganism—   1.0 million   0.01%
    Unitarian Universalism—   0.8 million   0.01%
    Rastafari—   0.6 million   0.007%

    Non-religious people—1.1 billion (16.3%)

    interesting faiths and faith heads .....  I don't know how to figure out  and I wonder

    WHAT WOULD IT TAKE TO THESE FAITH HEADS TO REALIZE THAT FAITHS ARE HUMAN CONCEPTS AND MOSTLY MAN  MADE 

    I guess we need much more powerful COVID VIRUS  than we have now . And it need to infect not body but ..... brain...?? lol...

    any ways going back to Quran .. I read this book again that zeca posted in other folder  https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=28609.msg891213#msg891213

    A book by Elizabeth Urban

    That book/let  seem to extract   real history (IMAGNINARY??)of that time from Quran., she uses  lot of Quranic verses in that booklet   .,  what is your opinion on that ...??

    I really look forward reading your book..

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10218 - May 31, 2021, 09:25 AM

    Christianity is the comprehension of people about some texts written down in Greek by certain Jews
    Islam is the comprehension of people about some texts that they had in their hand.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10219 - May 31, 2021, 09:28 AM

    Altara, so you think that the author(s) of the Quran had access to written material, and did not just wrote down what they had heard?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10220 - May 31, 2021, 07:16 PM

    As literati, they had access to the whole, at least many. It has to be pointed that these author(s) not only knows all the basic material but also modify it, assembling different parts from different authors, times, etc., to fit their own view exposed in the Quran.

    https://youtu.be/sO2QbQI2yXs
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10221 - May 31, 2021, 08:05 PM

    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/iandavidmorris/status/1399345992038821895
    Quote
    Is there precedent for the idea in Muslim sources that an angel (instead of God: cf. Genesis 2:7) could breathe the breath of life into a mortal creature’s nostril?

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10222 - June 01, 2021, 03:42 PM

    Thierry Murcia, “The Rabbinic representation of Jesus and his followers”

    Abstract
    Born of Judaism, “Christian heresy” ends up supplanting idolatrous paganism to become the official religion of the Roman
    Empire: for the rabbis, one “prostitute” casts out another. They must keep their distance from her and the seduction she employs. Jesus and his followers aretherefore brought to life in parodic tales: the rabbis use Jesus as their mouthpiece. Christianityfrom that point is seen as a neo-idolatry: an idolater, a seducer and a sorcerer, Jesus becomesthe founder of his own cult. Rather than Jesus, it is in reality the Christian contemporaries of the authors who are the rabbis’ targets.
     

    https://www.academia.edu/49084628/Thierry_Murcia_The_Rabbinic_representation_of_Jesus_and_his_followers_
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10223 - June 04, 2021, 08:40 AM

    Podcast_60   Muhammad Real History

    Episode description:   Who was Muhammad? where did he come from?  and what was his historical context for his life?  Tom Holland  and Dominic   Sandbrook discusses the subject

    that link come from Tom Holland twitter link

    https://mobile.twitter.com/holland_tom/status/1400350901513211904

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10224 - June 05, 2021, 08:48 AM

    Aware of the threats Holland is now a great believer. I do not blame him.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10225 - June 05, 2021, 03:33 PM

    Aware of the threats Holland is now a great believer. I do not blame him.

    Hmm... THAT IS SUCH  A MYSOGENIC STATEMENT FROM YOU   dear Altara.,    and it is because you did not  air the same opinion on a person who happened to be woman as well as Islam's historian ., ..... who was also writing and exploring origins of Quran/Islam  but   faith heads in Islam did not like that  ......  what I call  them as as Islamist bastards who moved in to Islam without reading and ((if read .. here and there))without understanding Quran and its origins...

    But I have other questions for you on your recent response/s Asbjoern1958

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10226 - June 05, 2021, 03:41 PM

    Important lecture by Dye: French imperative.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJphpYBk6y0
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10227 - June 05, 2021, 03:45 PM

    Hmm... THAT IS SUCH  A MYSOGENIC STATEMENT FROM YOU   dear Altara.,    and it is because you did not  air the same opinion on a person who happened to be woman as well as Islam's historian .

    ,

    Huh??
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10228 - June 05, 2021, 03:48 PM

    ,

    Holland is a woman?Huh?


    i guess you did not read  the post properly ..  read this again

    Quote
    and it is because you did not  air the same opinion on a person who happened to be woman as well as Islam's historian ., ..... who was also writing and exploring origins of Quran/Islam  but   faith heads in Islam did not like that  ..


    but I am watching that  Dye you tube..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10229 - June 05, 2021, 03:56 PM

    I do not understand what you said.
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