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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10170 - May 11, 2021, 05:38 AM



    Thank you for that link dear zeca ., That is a good one and a very very brief history  and (LITTLE OR NOTHING TO DO WITH EARLY ISLAM & ARABIA on Muhammad.. Mecca,m Madina Zam zam water .... ., he goes from 3rd and 4th century to 9th century history      Professor Robert Hoyland  is a good escapist .. escapes with a smile ..  Cheesy Cheesy   and and that Egyptian Seif El Rashidi is also good in asking  right questions that HIDES DIRT UNDER FLYING CARPET ..  Cheesy

    anyways it is good one
     

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10171 - May 12, 2021, 11:57 AM

    1/500/700 depends.
    2/Not enough: all has to be clearly explained

    Not sure what you are writing and what history of Islam and what time  domain Islamic history you are trying to pen  but 500 pages is big enough book.,

    But I tell you readers will  be very much interested in the history of early Islam of this time period

    Quote
    571: Birth of the Holy Prophet. Year of the Elephant. Invasion of Makkah by Abraha the Viceroy of Yemen, his retreat.
    577: The Holy Prophet visits Madina with his mother. Death of his mother.
    580: Death of Abdul Muttalib, the grandfather of the Holy Prophet.
    583: The Holy Prophet's journey to Syria in the company of his uncle Abu Talib. His meeting with the monk Bahira at Bisra who foretells of his prophethood.
    586: The Holy Prophet participates in the war of Fijar.
    591: The Holy Prophet becomes an active member of "Hilful Fudul", a league for the relief of the distressed.
    594: The Holy Prophet becomes the Manager of the business of Lady Khadija, and leads her trade caravan to Syria and back.
    595: The Holy Prophet marries Hadrat Khadija.
    605: The Holy Prophet arbitrates in a dispute among the Quraish about the placing of the Black Stone in the Kaaba.
    610: The first revelation in the cave at Mt. Hira. The Holy Prophet is commissioned as the Messenger of God.
    613: Declaration at Mt. Sara inviting the general public to Islam.

    614: Invitation to the Hashimites to accept Islam.
    615: Persecution of the Muslims by the Quraish. A party of Muslims leaves for Abyssinia.
    616: Second Hijrah to Abysinnia.
    617: Social boycott of the Hashimites and the Holy Prophet by the Quraish. The Hashimites are shut up in a glen outside Makkah.
    619: Lifting of the boycott. Deaths of Abu Talib and Hadrat Khadija. Year of sorrow.
    620: Journey to Taif. Ascension to the heavens.
    621: First pledge at Aqaba.
    622: Second pledge at Aqaba. The Holy Prophet and the Muslims migrate to Yathrib.
    623: Nakhla expedition.
    624: Battle of Badr. Expulsion of the Bani Qainuqa Jews from Madina.
    625: Battle of Uhud. Massacre of 70 Muslims at Bir Mauna. Expulsion of Banu Nadir Jews from Madina. Second expedition of Badr.
    626: Expedition of Banu Mustaliq.
    627: Battle of the Trench. Expulsion of Banu Quraiza Jews.
    628: Truce of Hudaibiya. Expedition to Khyber. The Holy Prophet addresses letters to various heads of states.
    629: The Holy Prophet performs the pilgrimage at Makkah. Expedition to Muta (Romans).
    630: Conquest of Makkah. Battles of Hunsin, Auras, and Taif.
    631: Expedition to Tabuk. Year of Deputations.
    632: Farewell pilgrimage at Makkah.
    632: Death of the Holy Prophet.Election of Hadrat Abu Bakr as the Caliph. Usamah leads expedition to Syria. Battles of Zu Qissa and Abraq. Battles of Buzakha, Zafar and Naqra. Campaigns against Bani Tamim and Musailima, the Liar.
    632: Death of the Holy Prophet.Election of Hadrat Abu Bakr as the Caliph.   Usamah leads expedition to Syria. Battles of Zu Qissa and Abraq. Battles of Buzakha, Zafar and Naqra. Campaigns against Bani Tamim and Musailima, the Liar.

    633: Campaigns in Bahrain, Oman, Mahrah Yemen, and Hadramaut. Raids in Iraq. Battles of Kazima, Mazar, Walaja, Ulleis, Hirah, Anbar, Ein at tamr, Daumatul Jandal and Firaz.
    634: Battles of Basra, Damascus and Ajnadin. Death of Hadrat Abu Bakr. Hadrat Umar Farooq becomes the Caliph. Battles of Namaraq and Saqatia.
    635: Battle of Bridge. Battle of Buwaib. Conquest of Damascus. Battle of Fahl.
    636: Battle of Yermuk. Battle of Qadsiyia. Conquest of Madain.
    637: Conquest of Syria. Fall of Jerusalem. Battle of Jalula.
    638: Conquest of Jazirah.
    639: Conquest of Khuizistan. Advance into Egypt.
    640: Capture of the post of Caesaria in Syria. Conquest of Shustar and Jande Sabur in Persia. Battle of Babylon in Egypt.
    641: Battle of Nihawand. Conquest Of Alexandria in Egypt.
    642: Battle of Rayy in Persia. Conquest of Egypt. Foundation of Fustat.
    643: Conquest of Azarbaijan and Tabaristan (Russia).
    644: Conquest of Fars, Kerman, Sistan, Mekran and Kharan.[/u] Martyrdom of Hadrat Umar. Hadrat Othman becomes the Caliph.
    645: Campaigns in Fats.
    646: Campaigns in Khurasan, Armeain and Asia Minor.
    647: Campaigns in North Africa. Conquest of the island of Cypress.
    648: Campaigns against the Byzantines.
    651: Naval battle of the Masts against the Byzantines.
    652: Discontentment and disaffection against the rule of Hadrat Othman.
    656: Martyrdom of Hadrat Othman. Hadrat Ali becomes the Caliph. Battle of the Camel.
    657: Hadrat Ali shifts the capital from Madina to Kufa. Battle of Siffin. Arbitration proceedings at Daumaut ul Jandal.
    658: Battle of Nahrawan.
    659: Conquest of Egypt by Mu'awiyah.
    660: Hadrat Ali recaptures Hijaz and Yemen from Mu'awiyah. Mu'awiyah declares himself as the Caliph at Damascus.
    661: Martyrdom of Hadrat Ali. Accession of Hadrat Hasan and his abdication. Mu'awiyah becomes the sole Caliph.

    that is it .,    that is what many many folks will be interested in  that  Islamic history from year 571 to  to the year 661  that is just 90 years of history .,  I think  500 pages should be enough to pen that history..
    Quote
    3/Because it is much more precise/accurate/exact /strict than English.

       No... no ...........noooooo., I understand you have problem with English language  and British people  Cheesy Cheesy    but we are in 21 st century.,   ANY LANGUAGE AND EVERY LANGUGAE ON THIS EARTH COULD BE MADE  precise/accurate/exact /strict

    any ways  you  write in French I will put that in English 

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10172 - May 12, 2021, 12:13 PM

    Quote
    that is what many many folks will be interested in  that  Islamic history from year 571 to  to the year 661

    Much more earlier than that ; Arabs arrives en masse in Palestine-Syria from 450. Yemen is Judaized since 380. At once I show you that what you say is  a reflection of someone interested in the topic, but not engaged to study it  thoroughly. And it is normal, I do not blame you. It is a much more complicate topic that you could think which mobilize many things... Much more, maybe, than you think.

    Quote
    any ways  you  write in French I will put that in English

    We'll see.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10173 - May 13, 2021, 08:20 AM

    Much more earlier than that ; Arabs arrives en masse in Palestine-Syria from 450. Yemen is Judaized since 380.

    That I am not sure ..   but were they Arab Christian?? Arab Jews?? Arab Pagans??

    Migration of folks may have happened to present Palestine-Syria .,    but why call them Arabs?  who was Arab  who was NOT arab during that time between 1st century  and  6th century in those lands between Egypt  to Persia??   

    Were people of Yemen Arabs before they Judaized ?? were folks living in the present North African lands  specifically Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, the  so-called Berber lands.,  were  they  Arabs  before they  Judaized  by Jews of 4th century  and converted to Islam in 7th century AD?    and what is that Nomadic Arab of that time  has to do with  Quran and Muhammad Mecca Medina   zam-zam water ??

    Anyways I agree with you.,   To understand Islam of 6th/7th century one probably need to go through history of 3rd  to 5th centuries

    Quote
    At once I show you that what you say is  a reflection of someone interested in the topic, but not engaged to study it  thoroughly. And it is normal, I do not blame you. It is a much more complicate topic that you could think which mobilize many things... Much more, maybe, than you think.

    you are absolute correct in saying that .. I am neither historian  nor a student of history .. My bread butter comes from pure sciences and through out my life I was .. I am and i will be student of sciences 
    Quote
    We'll see.

    well the only thing I need to see is   authentic history  Book  on early Islam or/and  proto Islam  in French from you dear Altara.,   Rest is easy  ....lol....  But I still think 500/600  pages is a good enough book ., if you have a lot more material and subject is difficult to explain with in 500 pages then  may be you should split it  in to  two or three different volumes

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10174 - May 13, 2021, 10:44 AM

    Much more earlier than that ; Arabs arrives en masse in Palestine-Syria from 450. Yemen is Judaized since 380.

    Quote
    That I am not sure ..   but were they Arab Christian?? Arab Jews?? Arab Pagans??


    Scholarship is sure. Arabs "Jews" are in Yemen and nowhere else. In 450, it is Constantinople who bring Arabs from the peninsula, Sinaï, to defend the limes vs the Arab Persians from the East. Persians uses them intensively vs the Romans.  They were mainly pagans and were slowly Christianized (Jacobite) They were Arabs : https://www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/inscriptions/harran.html ; https://www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/inscriptions/zebed.html


    Quote
    Migration of folks may have happened to present Palestine-Syria .,    but why call them Arabs?  who was Arab  who was NOT arab during that time between 1st century  and  6th century in those lands between Egypt  to Persia??   


    Arabophone people were "Arab" whatever they were named : Saracens, Arabs, etc. Moreover I consider that the origin of the word "Saracen"  is this one, even if the author did not make the link here:
    "Around 140 BCE, Hyspaosines, a satrap under Antiochus IV, proclaimed
    himself king and founded a kingdom at the head of the Persian Gulf, in
    the surrounding district of the city of Charax (Karka d-Meshan), which
    he named after himself—Charax Spasinou. This kingdom, which was
    known as Mesene, or in some Greek and Latin sources as Characene
    (Χαρακηνή derived from Charax), would endure for almost four centuries.
    During most of its rather turbulent history, Mesene remained an independent,
    although at times vassal, kingdom with a local dynasty and
    currency, constituting a distinct geopolitical entity. Mesene, due to its
    strategic location, was an important center for international trade between
    the East and the Roman Empire."
    https://www.academia.edu/37198069/_Meishan_Is_Dead_On_the_Historical_Contexts_of_the_Bavli_s_Representations_of_the_Jews_in_Southern_Babylonia_in_The_Aggada_of_the_Bavli_and_its_Cultural_World_ed_Geoffrey_Herman_and_Jeffrey_Rubenstein_Providence_RI_Brown_University_Press_2018_47_99
    Quote
    Were people of Yemen Arabs before they Judaized ?? were folks living in the present North African lands  specifically Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, the  so-called Berber lands.,  were  they  Arabs  before they  Judaized  by Jews of 4th century  and converted to Islam in 7th century AD?    and what is that Nomadic Arab of that time  has to do with  Quran and Muhammad Mecca Medina   zam-zam water ??

    1/ They were and are "Himyar" before Islam, they spoke an South Arabian language. But they did not named themselves "Arabs".
    2/ North African were Berber. Jews from Paletine-Judea, installed themselves there as they did everywhere  in the Mediterranean Basin. They did not "convert" those Berbers. Those ones were converted slowly to Christianity. North Africa belongs to the Romans since the end of Carthage (146 BC)
    3/ To my knowledge, they have nothing to do with  Quran and Muhammad Mecca Medina   zam-zam water.
    For the rest, we'll see.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10175 - May 15, 2021, 02:38 PM

    Much more earlier than that ; Arabs arrives en masse in Palestine-Syria from 450. Yemen is Judaized since 380.

    Scholarship is sure. Arabs "Jews" are in Yemen and nowhere else. In 450, it is Constantinople who bring Arabs from the peninsula, Sinaï, to defend the limes vs the Arab Persians from the East. Persians uses them intensively vs the Romans.  They were mainly pagans and were slowly Christianized (Jacobite) They were Arabs : https://www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/inscriptions/harran.html ; https://www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/inscriptions/zebed.html


    Arabophone people were "Arab" whatever they were named : Saracens, Arabs, etc. Moreover I consider that the origin of the word "Saracen"  is this one, even if the author did not make the link here:
    "Around 140 BCE, Hyspaosines, a satrap under Antiochus IV, proclaimed
    himself king and founded a kingdom at the head of the Persian Gulf, in
    the surrounding district of the city of Charax (Karka d-Meshan), which
    he named after himself—Charax Spasinou. This kingdom, which was
    known as Mesene, or in some Greek and Latin sources as Characene
    (Χαρακηνή derived from Charax), would endure for almost four centuries.
    During most of its rather turbulent history, Mesene remained an independent,
    although at times vassal, kingdom with a local dynasty and
    currency, constituting a distinct geopolitical entity. Mesene, due to its
    strategic location, was an important center for international trade between
    the East and the Roman Empire."
    https://www.academia.edu/37198069/_Meishan_Is_Dead_On_the_Historical_Contexts_of_the_Bavli_s_Representations_of_the_Jews_in_Southern_Babylonia_in_The_Aggada_of_the_Bavli_and_its_Cultural_World_ed_Geoffrey_Herman_and_Jeffrey_Rubenstein_Providence_RI_Brown_University_Press_2018_47_991/ They were and are "Himyar" before Islam, they spoke an South Arabian language. But they did not named themselves "Arabs".
    2/ North African were Berber. Jews from Paletine-Judea, installed themselves there as they did everywhere  in the Mediterranean Basin. They did not "convert" those Berbers. Those ones were converted slowly to Christianity. North Africa belongs to the Romans since the end of Carthage (146 BC)
    3/ To my knowledge, they( THE ARABS) have nothing to do with  Quran and Muhammad Mecca Medina   zam-zam water.
    For the rest, we'll see.


    I read your response three times .. and the only thing I understood is,  that statement in  those highlighted words .. rest of your statements on the ancient history (not medieval ) of present Arabian peninsula  is riddled with  many questions and doubts dear Altara ..  well let me read it again.. as the subject involves educating myself on the ancient history  that is few centuries before Christ  as well as few centuries after Christ   And I think  most of it is IRRELEVANT TO QUARN AS WELL AS TO   ISLAM  THE FAITH ...

    do you agree with that??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10176 - May 16, 2021, 03:29 PM

    Altara,

    Quote
    Scholarship is sure. Arabs "Jews" are in Yemen and nowhere else.


    There are Jewish Nabatean Aramaic inscriptions in Higra. These are estimated to be 4-5th C. So I wonder about your statement.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10177 - May 17, 2021, 08:14 AM

    Quote
    There are Jewish Nabatean Aramaic inscriptions in Higra


    It is impossible to know if it was installed Jews that wrote them. There is no dates and scarce  Biblical names do not make only "Judaism" it could make Christianity(ies) as well. In the Muslim narrative, they were living  as big communities.  Are these inscriptions could attest of that? View the scarce and few ones  (interpreted  by Hoyland as Jewish) I do not think so.
    From the middle of the 4th c. we know that Jews of Palestine went to Yemen and travelled from there to Palestine. Afterwards Yemeni Jews went from the south to be buried in Palestine and end of 4th c. Hegra is abandoned. In all the cities around the same situation. Hoyland is obliged to use the Muslim narrative to ground the Jewish presence.
    At last, is there any synagogue, or other Jewish artefacts to ground the inscriptions attesting what the Muslim narrative recounts? I think that posing the question is answering it.  Of course all can be changed with new discoveries. At the moment, there is none. My opinion is that there will be no discoveries simply because what the narrative recounts is not historical.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10178 - May 19, 2021, 09:10 PM

    Altara,

    About synagogues with Sol Invictus:

    Just came across the excavation report of Huqoq. The synagogue is firmly dated as being built early 5th C. It has Sol Invictus in the middle. So lot's of weirdness going on the the Jewish community.

    https://www.academia.edu/37956318/The_Huqoq_Excavation_Project_2014_2017_Interim_Report?email_work_card=title
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10179 - May 19, 2021, 11:38 PM

    Well... It does not surprise me. We have the more or less same example in the East; The Dura Europos one. Less maybe Helios (I did not check...)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10180 - May 20, 2021, 11:26 AM

    Altara,

    Huqoq is 5th C, and there are many synagogues with Sol Invictus at the center. The comparison with Dura Europas which is older is not valid. And I checked, no Sol Invictus there.

    So we have a thriving Jewish community (5th C) around Tiberias, having the image of Sol Invictus in the center of its Synagogues. What was the situation in the 6th C (the composition frame work of the Quran)?
    I think a lot of wild ideas were going on in the Jewish community.

    So why not have a fertile ground for Quranic ideas? If Sol Invictus could be introduced in the synagogues, why not have Jesus introduced as a prophet in an Arabian community with Jewish infiltration?

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10181 - May 20, 2021, 02:33 PM

    ...........................

    So why not have a fertile ground for Quranic ideas? ................


    List me few Quranic ideas dear mundi...........

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10182 - May 20, 2021, 03:12 PM

    Quote
    The comparison with Dura Europas which is older is not valid.


    Yet it has the same pattern of Romans mosaic panels with Bible stories.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dura-Europos_synagogue
    That is why the Huqoq one does not surprise me as such. The north of Palestine was heavily colonized by the Greeks after Alexander ; they built 10 cities (the Decapolis) and bring out their culture ; that is why certains Jews have revolted against the presence and afterwards, the  imposition of the Greek culture.
    What you call "Sol Invictus" is (for me...) inappropriate. Simply because "Sol Invictus" is a specific concept in Romanity. The authors  of the article, moreover, never mention it as such, they mention "Helios".
    But again "Helios" is a Greek concept, he is a Greek god. As such, the sun in a Biblical milieu is not "Helios" he is God's creation as figured it out by Abraham, that in the sky there is no gods, but the creation of something else which is the only God.
    Abraham in the Greco-Roman world is depicted as an Astrologer he is a great figure known for his observations of the sky.
    So I consider that this synagogue even in the 5th c. has no relations with our topic. It could appear to have one, it could seem, but, for me it has none.
    The only interest is what happen inside Judaism at that time, these panels attest of what exactly inside it whereas we are told that the rabbis of the Talmud have the power. It is the question raised by this synagogue.


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10183 - May 20, 2021, 06:27 PM

    Altara,

    Some of the synagogues of the area depict also the chariot with the stone of Elegabalus. In Huqoq we only see the 4 horses, probably the Chariot with the stone was there too be now ruined. So we do have Sol Invictus not just Helios.

    Kerr sees in the general importance of the stone in late antiquity a connection with the Kabaa. Who knows.
    But it seems clear to me that Judaism accommodated quite some stuff that deviates a lot from accepted judaism these days. And that is probably the reason why the article sweeps over this "detail". The authors are associated with Chapel Hill- N. Carolina and Tel Aviv University....
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10184 - May 20, 2021, 08:21 PM

    Quote
    In Huqoq we only see the 4 horses, probably the Chariot with the stone was there too be now ruined. So we do have Sol Invictus not just Helios.

    Elegabalus Reign 8 June 218 – 11 March 222
    That is why the panels could be more ancient.
    In a Jewish milieu, pagan concepts are  judaized as monotheist ones are paganized as we have seen with Abraham.
    Quote
    But it seems clear to me that Judaism accommodated quite some stuff that deviates a lot from accepted judaism these days

    Judaization is not accommodation ; you have no pagan texts on the panels ; that's the difference.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10185 - May 20, 2021, 08:31 PM

    Elegabalus Reign 8 June 218 – 11 March 222
    That is why the panels could be more ancient.
    In a Jewish milieu, pagan concepts are  judaized as monotheist ones are paganized as we have seen with Abraham.Judaization is not accommodation ; you have no pagan texts on the panels ; that's the difference.


    Hello Altara., in those words  you mean to  say  "Jews and Jewish preachers plagiarized CERTAIN pagan concepts and they Abrahamized/Judaized and filtered those pagan  concepts??"

    and I wonder a question that was asked by   
     babooshka   https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=31821.msg891122#msg891122  in another folder and the question is

    Quote
    is there any evidence from the jewish side about the wars/massacres that took place. such as  i.e Bani Quraizah .....

    and other wars  such as

    Battle of Uhud
    Battle of Hamra' al-Asad
    Invasion of Banu Nadir
    Battle of the Trench
    Invasion of Banu Lahyan

    etc..etc....


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10186 - May 20, 2021, 11:14 PM

    Quote
    "Jews and Jewish preachers plagiarized CERTAIN pagan concepts


    Not "plagiarized". This word is anachronistic. They have retaken some cultural concepts. In mosaics and Judaized them. It is what we see in the two synagogues.

     
    Quote
    and they Abrahamized/Judaized and filtered those pagan concepts

    Yes.
    And before, Hellenistic world did the same: Abraham in the Greco-Roman world is depicted by Greco-Romans as an Astrologer as a great figure known for his observations of the sky.

     
    Quote
    is there any evidence from the jewish side about the wars/massacres that took place. such as  i.e Bani Quraizah .....


    None
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10187 - May 21, 2021, 10:54 AM

    Altara,
    Quote
    Judaization is not accommodation ; you have no pagan texts on the panels ; that's the difference.


    For some reason you want to stick to a strict Jewish belief system while teh evidence is overwhelming that that was just not the case in LA. Is your personal theory based on this?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10188 - May 21, 2021, 04:02 PM

    mundi  did not answer my question and that was
    List me few Quranic ideas dear mundi...........

      but mundi says this ., so I pose more questions
    Altara,
    For some reason you want to stick to a strict Jewish belief system while the evidence is overwhelming that that was just not the case in LA. Is your personal theory based on this?

    1). where did Altara do that dear mundi? in which post and in which statement ?

    2). and what actually do you mean by  strict Jewish belief system?? what is it and where is it?? 

    3). You mean.,  Orthodox Judaism  advocates a strict observance of the Jewish law   which we read in those 10 commandments ??


    Quote
    Worship no other God but me.
    Do not make images to worship.
    Do not misuse the name of God. Observe the Sabbath Day (Saturday).
    Keep it Holy.
    Honor and respect your father and mother.
    Do not murder.
    Do not commit adultery.
    Do not steal.
    Do not accuse anyone falsely. Do not tell lies about other people.
    Do not envy other's possessions.


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10189 - May 21, 2021, 07:35 PM

    Altara,
    For some reason you want to stick to a strict Jewish belief system while teh evidence is overwhelming that that was just not the case in LA.

     

    Nope, no offense Mundi, it is you who do not understand that things are much more complicated than you think. Why? Because you're not trained.
    If you had found a pagan inscription under the mosaics I (and all scholarship) would have agree with you. There is none.
    I already explained what does mean the use of this pagan imagery and why it is not paganism for those Jews. It is a Judaization of the ruling culture. I will not do it again. Our topic is a large and very complicated one, it deals with necessary training in history due to its large (in time and space) field. Training that you do not have and which make you think that some Jews had become more or less pagans. They did not Mundi. Because imagery is not inscription and there is no inscription praying Helios. And they would have never did that. Why? Because they were Jews.


    Quote
    Is your personal theory based on this?


    Not at all.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10190 - May 22, 2021, 04:09 PM

    Altara,

    Nothing of the sort of this Sol Invictus is found in any church mosaic of LA.

    Plus there are hardly any inscriptions at all in the synagogues.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10191 - May 22, 2021, 06:37 PM

    Altara,

    Quote
    Earlier studies reveal the existence of idolatrous Jews in the Land of Israel in the period of the Mishnah and Talmud and that the Palestinian rabbis deemed the pagan influence on Jewish society there to be a serious threat, both culturally and religiously.


    https://www.academia.edu/12347114/Sol_Invictus_in_the_Severus_synagogue_at_Hammath_Tiberias_the_rabbis_and_Jewish_society_a_different_approach?email_work_card=title
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10192 - May 22, 2021, 07:45 PM

    Quote
    The image of Sol Invictus appears in the mosaic pavement of the synagogue in Hammath Tiberias that is dated to the late third or early fourth century C.E

    200/300 AD/CE.
    Rabbanite Judaism/contemporary Jews think/believe that all the Jews were, more or less, after 70, under the rule of Rabbis. It is a legend. Even Friedheim still want to believe it :
     "Despite, however, the great scholarly importance of this discovery, this is still a societal microcosm that cannot teach of the importance (or lack thereof) in which most sectors of the Jewish society held the rabbis as a group, who, we believe (until additional new archaeological, epigraphic, and literary discoveries come to light) led the Jews, as is indicated by the Rabbinical literature "

    So when they discover that Jews were formally influenced by pagan culture, they claim their surprise.  Again, there is no prayer to Sol Invictus/Helios in this synagogue. The Rabbinical literature pointed by Friedheim  which indicate that Jews were led by Rabbis, lie. Rabbinical literature is a propaganda literature for internal use.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10193 - May 22, 2021, 09:46 PM

    Altara,

    Sol Invictus is there also 5th C, possibly also 6th. These synagogues were not built to be destroyed a few years later.

    Note that some of the figures around Sol Invictus, also depict Greek goddesses.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10194 - May 22, 2021, 10:00 PM

    the folder says  Qur'anic studies today  and I read Rabbanism.......Judaism......Sol Invictusism......
    Quote

    200/300 AD/CE.
    Rabbanite Judaism/contemporary Jews think/believe that all the Jews were, more or less, after 70, under the rule of Rabbis. It is a legend. Even Friedheim still want to believe it :

     ............. The Rabbinical literature pointed by Friedheim  which indicate that Jews were led by Rabbis, lie. Rabbinical literature is a propaganda literature for internal use.



    well whatever I guess the Quran is also product of some part of that  Rabbanism ..

    anyways dear Altara   you say...
    Quote
    ....................Jews were led by Rabbis, lie. Rabbinical literature is a propaganda literature for internal use.........

    then during  those turbulent  monotheistic religious times of middle east   say  during  200–500 CE., there must be plenty of Rabbis  that preached/wrote their own  Rabbanism to their respective groups.,   that may also include a rabbi preaching that  Sol Invictusism.. or sun_godism .,

    so  do you  see any possibility that there is a chance that    Quran was a product of one of those  Rabbis  that  came  as Arabic   Quranic manuscripts and later became a book that we see to day at the end of 6th century??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10195 - May 23, 2021, 07:52 AM

    Altara,

    Sol Invictus is there also 5th C, possibly also 6th. These synagogues were not built to be destroyed a few years later.


    Yes.

    Quote
    Note that some of the figures around Sol Invictus, also depict Greek goddesses.


    Is there prayers to these Greek goddesses?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10196 - May 23, 2021, 08:18 AM

    Quote
    then during  those turbulent  monotheistic religious times of middle east   say  during  200–500 CE., there must be plenty of Rabbis  that preached/wrote their own  Rabbanism to their respective groups.,  


    This is the story recounted by academic Jewish scholars/rabbis/official Jewish history of today. Unfortunately for them the real world say other things : synagogues with pagan panels show that things were much more complicated than what they recount to their fellow Jews of today. Rabbanism (the Judaism of today) was not (at all) dominant in the Jewish population of north Palestine near Tiberias where the Jerusalem Talmud was (supposedly) written down at the same time (100-500).


    Quote
    that may also include a rabbi preaching that  Sol Invictusism.. or sun_godism .,


    Surely not. Jewish scholar leading Rabbanism of that time have occulted deliberately most of the situation that these synagogues show to make believe to the Jews of the future that they were the sole legitimate Judaism without any foreign influences. It's a lie as we see it.

     But I remind that theses synagogues are Jews. Panels of Greek stuff are not evidences of paganism, but of Judaization of pagan stuff as we have no texts, inscriptions which would attest of a shifting to paganism in these synagogues.

    Quote
    so  do you  see any possibility that there is a chance that Quran was a product of one of those  Rabbis  that  came  as Arabic Quranic manuscripts and later became a book that we see to day at the end of 6th century??


    It is possible but I see one issue to this proposition that you would have to explain: Jesus. For Judaism Jesus is boiling in its excrements in Hell. Knowing this, how Jewish scholars of that time could have written down a praised Jesus as one can see in the Quran?

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10197 - May 23, 2021, 01:32 PM

    Quote
    For Judaism Jesus is boiling in its excrements in Hell. Knowing this, how Jewish scholars of that time could have written down a praised Jesus as one can see in the Quran?


    Back to the beginning. If Jews could live with Sol Invictus at the center of their synagogues, why not with Jesus as a secondary prophet?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10198 - May 23, 2021, 02:59 PM

    Back to the beginning. If Jews could live with Sol Invictus at the center of their synagogues, why not with Jesus as a secondary prophet?

    well  there are many kinds of Jews in those days AS WELL AS TODAY.. In fact there were and there are different sects with in Judaism as you have mentioned already 

    So some Jews  go that way .. and some go this way., Some are sweet Juice  and some bitter Juice dear mundi... 

    So you don't want to answer my questions...  I ask you why.. what did I do ??
    mundi  did not answer my question and that was.................   but mundi says this ., so I pose more questions .........................


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10199 - May 23, 2021, 04:59 PM

    This is the story recounted by academic Jewish scholars/rabbis/official Jewish history of today. Unfortunately for them the real world say other things : synagogues with pagan panels show that things were much more complicated than what they recount to their fellow Jews of today. Rabbanism (the Judaism of today) was not (at all) dominant in the Jewish population of north Palestine near Tiberias where the Jerusalem Talmud was (supposedly) written down at the same time (100-500).


    Surely not. Jewish scholar leading Rabbanism of that time have occulted deliberately most of the situation that these synagogues show to make believe to the Jews of the future that they were the sole legitimate Judaism without any foreign influences. It's a lie as we see it.

     But I remind that theses synagogues are Jews. Panels of Greek stuff are not evidences of paganism, but of Judaization of pagan stuff as we have no texts, inscriptions which would attest of a shifting to paganism in these synagogues.

    It is possible but I see one issue to this proposition that you would have to explain: Jesus. For Judaism Jesus is boiling in its excrements in Hell. Knowing this, how Jewish scholars of that time could have written down a praised Jesus as one can see in the Quran?

     I was trying to understand and respond to the  above post of Altara but those highlighted words pulled me through the excrements of hell  l..

    why would you say that dear Altara??

    WHAT IS JUDAISM??
    WHAT ARE ITS TEXTS??  .. RELIGIOUS/ORAL  whatever??
    And what are those texts have to do with Jesus Christ?

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
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