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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10080 - April 03, 2021, 03:55 PM

    mundi  uses a word (the Targums   and also some time line for that  core of Quranic texts 
    1/ The article on the meaning of the word " Islam", shows the author(s) were familiar with the rabbinic writings. Can that have been expected of a Christian writer? Those books (the Targums etc) were not available outside of certain Jewish milieus. That does narrow down who wrote the texts.

    dear mundi.,  I didn't get your point on coupling Quran and Islam with that word  "the Targums". but those  Targum books/manual's ..whatever ... DO THEY MENTION THE WORD ISLAM?? OR Muhammad in them ??


    as far as that ....... " the Targums were not available outside of certain Jewish milieus.  ".......    is concerned., we must realize that during 1st  to 6th century ....the Jewish folks in various sects and denominations were living all over the place from Syria, Armenia., Egypt, present Jordan, Iraq, Iran   all the way to Yemen., so those  Targums must have been present    wherever Jewish folks were living at that time.,   In fact Yemenite Jews still  use the stuff from Targums ..in their religious rituals.,

    So I didn't get the reason for you to couple Targums to Quran and Islam dear mundi.,   Yes Quran has the stuff from  Targums., which is nothing but of collection  OT stories/songs sonnets  in earlier times ., almost 6-7 centuries before the birth of those so-called Quran manuscripts.,  Off curse they were not in Arabic but  in different languages such as Aramaic  or Hebrew...  good to read this book  The Aramaic Bible: Targums in their Historical Context  and watch this one on those good old languages of Middle East

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epEMncIAhjg

    Quote
    2/ 1). For me the Quran as a book (maybe a text here or there missing) exists from before 630 (C14 proves it).

    2). Maybe not all text material was original and might even from 6th C, but the collection itself seems to have been done with the purpose of making a theological point.

    3). So no Yeez, I dont think there is a pure core of Quranic texts corrupted by some later evil doers. WYSIWYG:

    4). there is material in the book that is acceptable to us 21st C people, and there is material that is totally unacceptable.  Maybe the Quranic author(s) should not be reduced to their worst Quranic ideas?

     Well all that what you said above is a HANDWAVING statement that will have loads of questions dear mundi., let me throw  few questions
    Quote
    1). For me the Quran as a book (maybe a text here or there missing) exists from before 630 (C14 proves it).

    Nope.. No...Noooooooo.,  I disagree and I doubt it.,  you got to come out with much more than one line statement to prove that dear mundi
    Quote
    2). Maybe not all text material was original and might even from 6th C, but the collection itself seems to have been done with the purpose of making a theological point.


    When you say "might even from 6th C" .. what does it mean ?? Part of Quran  book was floating around in the year 530??  550?? 570?? 590??     and WHAT THEOLOGICAL POINT  are you talking dear mundi?? ..  pick it up from these points..

    1). There is no Allah/God   but Allah/God
    2). And Allah's last Prophet and   last messenger is Prophet Muhammad
    3). Jesus Christ is NOT God.. or Son of God .. just a messenger or  at best a prophet
    4). Allah/God can not have any kids
    5). All previous Jewish/Christian/Greek/Roman/Pagan whatever  scriptures are corrupted .. completely corrupted by their followers


    Apart from the above so-called theological points.. what else is there in Quran As THEOLOGY dear mundi??  PLEASE ADD MORE THEOLOGY IF YOU CAN
    Quote
    3). So no Yeez, I dont think there is a pure core of Quranic texts corrupted by some later evil doers. WYSIWYG:

    you got to come up more than a STATEMENT to get me that pure core of Quranic texts dear mundi .,WHAT IS PURE CORE QURANIC TEXT??  give me some  core of Quran.,  AND WHO SAID LATER EVIL DOIERS ADDED STUFF IN TO  PURE QUARNIC STUFF?? TRUE THEY CAME UP WITH LOTS OF JUNK in HADITH .. but Quran at the end of 7th century .. it is already done and dusted
    Quote
    4). there is material in the book that is acceptable to us 21st C people, and there is material that is totally unacceptable.  Maybe the Quranic author(s) should not be reduced to their worst Quranic ideas?

    Off course there is a material in the book that is acceptable to us 21st C people., which I think was also there in 1st century .. 2nd century 5th century .,   What material from Quran you think unacceptable ?? Is it unacceptable to those follow Islam as faith strictly??

    No.. Noo.. Quran is a book of its time ., it served its purpose for 7th century folks .. it served their political/economical and spiritual needs of the leaders as well as public  ., SO I WOULD NEVER EVER REDUCE  Quranic author(s) to their worst Quranic ideas?

    but now you  print me out/write to me  on  Quranic author(s) worst Quranic ideas 

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10081 - April 03, 2021, 05:33 PM

    Worst Quranic ideas:

    -Polygamy
    -Slavery
    -Child marriage
    -Wife beating
    -Consanguinity rules
    -Unequal female inheritance
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10082 - April 03, 2021, 07:59 PM

    Worst Quranic ideas:

    -Polygamy
    -Slavery
    -Child marriage
    -Wife beating
    -Consanguinity rules
    -Unequal female inheritance

    well glad to see that response., but you know me., I QUESTION EVERYTHING ..

    anyway so you said this
    So no Yeez, I dont think there is a pure core of Quranic texts corrupted by some later evil doers. WYSIWYG: there is material in the book that is acceptable to us 21st C  people,   ........

     And what material is that  in the book that is acceptable to us  and which may also make people to attract to the faith  "Islam" through Quran??

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10083 - April 04, 2021, 04:25 PM

    We have no news from Jewish Christianity since Epiphanius (d.403). But that the Quran uses certains concept of it yes of courses.  I have carefully read the Pseudo-Clementine : they do not believe that Jesus is the Word of God, that he is born from a Virgin ; all what the Quran states. But like it they think that Jesus is a prophet. Then what? It is incomprehensible!!!
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10084 - April 04, 2021, 07:56 PM

    Jewish Christianity:

    I dont think the Quran is the result of a broad popular movement. There are no signs of that even after the Arab conquest (tiny mosques, no islamic signs).  It seems to be the result of rather small group creating their own sect. From a Jewish perspective, adding Jesus as a degraded figure to their pantheon of prophets might not have been such a huge step. No need to build a former long existing Jewish Christian tradition. This Quranic christology can be developed by one man on the spot. It s not that complicated or that great a find.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10085 - April 04, 2021, 08:06 PM

    Jewish Christianity:

    I dont think the Quran is the result of a broad popular movement. There are no signs of that even after the Arab conquest (tiny mosques, no islamic signs).  It seems to be the result of rather small group creating their own sect. From a Jewish perspective, adding Jesus as a degraded figure to their pantheon of prophets might not have been such a huge step. No need to build a former long existing Jewish Christian tradition. This Quranic christology can be developed by one man on the spot. It s not that complicated or that great a find.


    Hi mundi..... what is Quranic Christology?  you mean NT statements in Quran??  and i say Jesus Christ is NOT a degraded figure in Quran.. The only thing it says is Jesus Christ is NOT son of god or god...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10086 - April 04, 2021, 09:07 PM

    Quote
    The only thing it says is Jesus Christ is NOT son of god or god...


    Therefore it is a degraded figure in Quran. Read the Gospels.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10087 - April 04, 2021, 10:57 PM

    Quote
    Hi mundi.....
    what is Quranic Christology?  you mean NT statements in Quran??  and i say Jesus Christ is NOT a degraded figure in Quran..
    The only thing it says is Jesus Christ is NOT son of god or god...

    Therefore it is a degraded figure in Quran. Read the Gospels.


     it?? IT??     It or HE?

    1). It is a degraded figure in Quran.??   or should I read it as  .... HE is a degraded figure in Quran.??...

    2). and which Gospel would you suggest to me to read on that subject??

    3). Is that only thing that degrades Jesus Christ or are there any other Quranic verses that you think degrade Jesus Christ dear Altara??
     

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10088 - April 05, 2021, 12:05 AM

    Quote
    1). It is a degraded figure in Quran.??   or should I read it as  … HE is a degraded figure in Quran.??…and which Gospel would you suggest to me to read on that subject?? Is that only thing that degrades Jesus Christ or are there any other Quranic verses that you think degrade Jesus Christ dear Altara??


    1/It means the same thing.
    2/All the Gospels. You'll see that what they recounts can be comprehended as the figure of Jesus (therefore Jesus) is more than a mere prophet.
    3/ All the verses dealing with the fact that God has no son, that Jesus is a man, etc. All what Christianity believes in and which constitute its credo.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10089 - April 05, 2021, 10:31 AM

    1/It means the same thing.
    2/All the Gospels. You'll see that what they recounts can be comprehended as the figure of Jesus (therefore Jesus) is more than a mere prophet.
    3/ All the verses dealing with the fact that God has no son, that Jesus is a man, etc. All what Christianity believes in and which constitute its credo.


    Well, by that   basically you are saying  the contentious issue between Quran and Christianity is Jesus Christ story that is depicted in NT gospels and Quran and  is just about  ONE BELIEF., and that is simply .......Whether Christ is God/son of God   VERSES Christ  as messenger/or prophet .......

    And I wonder can a historian like you  solve such problem between the two faiths??   I am not sure historians can solve the problems of faiths and faith heads.

    And  by saying IT"  is same as "HE".,   you evaded answers to all simple questions dear Altara ., So you are a believer of Christ as son of God  and possibly God in human form or God as NT scriptural verses/sayings depicts  the person Christ .,

    hence For God or  to depict God  as in the form of Christ " one can use  IT or HE".,    did I get that right?   dear Altara., .,

    AND  CAN I USE "SHE"  instead of it or he??

    Correct me if I didn't follow your cryptic answers .,

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10090 - April 05, 2021, 12:03 PM

    Yeez,

    What we know of 6th C Christianity is that Jesus was very central to the faith. And you can't deny that Jesus in the Quran is just a secondary actor with only a few lines to say. It is an empty box compared to what he is in the gospels (and we know in 6th C Christianity, Gospels were central).

    IMO it would have been far easier for a Jew to add this cardboard Jesus to the Biblical OT pantheon without renegading his faith than for a Christian to degrade Jesus. For the Christian that would have meant to apostasy.

    Together with the Quranic elements relating ot Targums and Midrash, everything points to the Jewishness of the  author(s), no?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10091 - April 05, 2021, 12:23 PM

    Yeez,

    What we now of 6th C Christianity is that Jesus was very central to the faith. And you can't deny that Jesus in the Quran is just a secondary actor with only a few lines to say. It is an empty box compared to what he is in the gospels (and we know in 6th C Christianity, Gospels were central).

    True., you are right in saying that .,

    but   some smart guys.,   manuscript authors / religious story tellers of that time' or a preacher could have said same thing what Quran says.,   that too  from the same verses  what  we read now that were/are there in OT and also NT .,  and this must have been going even  in other languages before Quran became a book

    Am I wrong saying that??

    Quote
    IMO it would have been far easier for a Jew to add this cardboard Jesus to the Biblical OT pantheon without renegading his faith than for a Christian to degrade Jesus. For the Christian that would have meant to apostasy.

    Together with the Quranic elements relating ot Targums and Midrash, everything points to the Jewishness of the  author(s), no?

    I FULLY AGREE WITH YOU THERE., this author of THAT  STATEMENT  ON CHRIST could be a Jewish guy or even a intelligent character from Rome living around Jerusalem ., but it is not necessary he/she was sole  author of whole Quran ., It is just about Christ .,

    that is the reason often I say.,   Quran by that time it became book the ideas that are there in the book already floating around ., IN FACT I SAY THERE IS ABOLSUTELY NOTHING NEW IN QURAN  that you can not find in other religious thoughts that were born much before Islam  and floating around Arabian peninsula of that time,  And  and that also go to these statements of Quran that we see   
    Worst Quranic ideas:

    -Polygamy
    -Slavery
    -Child marriage
    -Wife beating
    -Consanguinity rules
    -Unequal female inheritance


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10092 - April 05, 2021, 12:32 PM

    ......................

    Together with the Quranic elements relating  to Targums and Midrash, everything points to the Jewishness of the  author(s), no?

    I am actually trying to read on those  Targums., I wonder whether you can throw time line of  these  Targums......Midrash..... OT books and NT book .. in to a post.,    when they were actually published and in what language did they get published/printed/Written first ??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10093 - April 05, 2021, 01:50 PM

    Well, by that   basically you are saying  the contentious issue between Quran and Christianity is Jesus Christ story that is depicted in NT gospels and Quran and  is just about  ONE BELIEF., and that is simply .......Whether Christ is God/son of God   VERSES Christ  as messenger/or prophet .......


     "ONE BELIEF" which the base of Christianity.

    Quote
    And I wonder can a historian like you  solve such problem between the two faiths??   I am not sure historians can solve the problems of faiths and faith heads.


    Solving problems is not my topic.

    Quote
    And  by saying IT"  is same as "HE".,   you evaded answers to all simple questions dear Altara ., So you are a believer of Christ as son of God  and possibly God in human form or God as NT scriptural verses/sayings depicts  the person Christ ., hence For God or  to depict God  as in the form of Christ " one can use  IT or HE"  did I get that right   dear Altara., .,AND  CAN I USE "SHE"  instead of it or he??


    The topic is what Christianity thinks from the Gospels, not me.

    Quote
    Correct me if didn't follow your cryptic answers .,

     

    Done Smiley
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10094 - April 05, 2021, 01:56 PM

    What we know of 6th C Christianity is that Jesus was very central to the faith.


    Much more : he was the Incarnation of God.

    Quote
    And you can't deny that Jesus in the Quran is just a secondary actor with only a few lines to say. It is an empty box compared to what he is in the gospels (and we know in 6th C Christianity, Gospels were central).


    That's correct.
    Quote
    IMO it would have been far easier for a Jew to add this cardboard Jesus to the Biblical OT pantheon without renegading his faith than for a Christian to degrade Jesus. For the Christian that would have meant to apostasy.


    Idem.

    Quote
    Together with the Quranic elements relating ot Targums and Midrash, everything points to the Jewishness of the  author(s), no?


    How do you explain the anti-Jewish stance of the Quranic texts then ? That's the 1b question Wink





  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10095 - April 05, 2021, 02:00 PM

    Quote
    How do you explain the anti-Jewish stance of the Quranic texts then ? That's the 1b question


    One  "reformed"Jewish sect acting against another one? nothing new, happens in all religions.

    Compare with the intra- Christian hatred that developed and is well documented. At a certain time, the Dutch pirates capturing ships would free the muslims and drown the Catholics... The anti-Jewish language in the Quran seems peanuts compared to this.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10096 - April 05, 2021, 02:23 PM

    Quote
    One  "reformed"Jewish sect acting against another one? nothing new, happens in all religions.


    Then it is the same than the Jewish-Christianity theory about the Quran.  It is then worst, because there is no sources about a  "reformed"Jewish sect " which believe that Jesus is the Messiah and a prophet : it is the Gallez theory.

    But the Gallez theory is wrong: Judaeo-Nazarean never existed (Cf. Luomanen "Nazorean" in A Companion to Second-Century Christian “Heretics” (2005) ) and we have no news from Jewish-Christianity since Epiphanius (d.403).

    Then, I repose the question: How explain the anti-Jewish stance of the Quranic texts? 2b question Wink

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10097 - April 05, 2021, 02:37 PM

    I dont think the new Jewish sect necessarily needs to be supported by an older tradition. The Quranic innovation could have been thought of by a single person or a small group of persons on the spot.

    New ideas and new religions get invented all the time. I think Judaism was much more diverse than is generally believed. Look at the Synagogues excavated in Tiberias and its neighborhoods. Tiberias is supposed to be the centre of Rabbinic Judaism in 5-6-7th C. But the floors of the excavated synagogues are full of depictions of Sol Invictus, complete with the 4 horses and the holy stone.

    So why not in a place with less centralized control, a new kind of Judaism developed, including Jesus as a side figure. There does not need to be a gradual development to get to this new idea. One man with a lot of imagination is enough.

    Lets say today I start a new form of Christianity with the second coming of Christ and Mohammed as a side figure. I get a rich mecenas with a few billions to make me a website and recruit people with gift vouchers. I rant against the existing Christians and call them the things the Quran calls the Jews. Doesnt take generations. Just 1 person with a "good" idea, another one to finance the lot and then some luck.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10098 - April 05, 2021, 06:07 PM

    Quote
    New ideas and new religions get invented all the time. I think Judaism was much more diverse than is generally believed.


    What is Judaism. A religion?  Or a people with a religion? In 4,5,6th c.  we do not know any schism documented in the sources. Plus, why a Jewish sect would write in Arabic?  Why not Coptic, Syriac, etc. ? Why Arabic?
    There is a response : Arabs are the sole Christianized group who do not have OT/NT in his language. It is maybe a coincidence but (for me...) it is interesting.

    Quote
    Look at the Synagogues excavated in Tiberias and its neighborhoods. Tiberias is supposed to be the centre of Rabbinic Judaism in 5-6-7th C. But the floors of the excavated synagogues are full of depictions of Sol Invictus, complete with the 4 horses and the holy stone.


    Those ones predate Rabbinic Judaism as the leader of the communities.

    Quote
    So why not in a place with less centralized control, a new kind of Judaism developed, including Jesus as a side figure. There does not need to be a gradual development to get to this new idea. One man with a lot of imagination is enough.


    Seems to me difficult. Jesus being the main figure of Christianity and boiling in Hell in the Talmud. How comes the idea of a Jew to lower Jesus in Arabic? Why not simply convert? And (again) why in Arabic??? What is specific to Arabs?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10099 - April 05, 2021, 06:31 PM

    We have the hymiarites.

    They practiced a sort of judaism for 300 years.

    As per robin article they arrived up to al hira in late 6th century

    They are arabs despite the different arabic, they are educated in christian traditions and jewish traditions.
    Aramaic was in their religious lenguage and ethiopian too.

    They are christianized for 40 years but they parted from aksum and wanted their indipendence.

    So the idea to incorporate jesus as a minor OT individual may be necssary to persuade their own christianized people and later to persuade their christianized friends in the north.

    They are in conflict with al hira arabs as well.

    Then they know that those people had no bible in arabic.

    They come to the north right in the period of the cataxlisms of 6th century.



  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10100 - April 05, 2021, 11:02 PM

    We have the hymiarites.


    Yes.

    Quote
    They practiced a sort of judaism for 300 years.


    It is more complicated than that.

    Quote
    As per robin article they arrived up to al hira in late 6th century


    Article reference?

    Quote
    They are arabs despite the different arabic, they are educated in christian traditions and jewish traditions.
    Aramaic was in their religious lenguage and ethiopian too.


    It is more complicated than that (bis)

    Quote
    They are christianized for 40 years but they parted from aksum and wanted their indipendence.


    (Ter)

    Quote
    So the idea to incorporate jesus as a minor OT individual may be necssary to persuade their own christianized people and later to persuade their christianized friends in the north.


    (Quater)

    Quote
    They are in conflict with al hira arabs as well.


    (Quinquies)
    Quote
    Then they know that those people had no bible in arabic.

    They come to the north right in the period of the cataxlisms of 6th century.

    (Sexies)


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10101 - April 05, 2021, 11:04 PM

    I dont think the new Jewish sect necessarily needs to be supported by an older tradition. The Quranic innovation could have been thought of by a single person or a small group of persons on the spot.

    New ideas and new religions get invented all the time. I think Judaism was much more diverse than is generally believed. Look at the Synagogues excavated in Tiberias and its neighborhoods. Tiberias is supposed to be the centre of Rabbinic Judaism in 5-6-7th C. But the floors of the excavated synagogues are full of depictions of Sol Invictus, complete with the 4 horses and the holy stone.

    So why not in a place with less centralized control, a new kind of Judaism developed, including Jesus as a side figure. There does not need to be a gradual development to get to this new idea. One man with a lot of imagination is enough.

    Lets say today I start a new form of Christianity with the second coming of Christ and Mohammed as a side figure. I get a rich mecenas with a few billions to make me a website and recruit people with gift vouchers. I rant against the existing Christians and call them the things the Quran calls the Jews. Doesnt take generations. Just 1 person with a "good" idea, another one to finance the lot and then some luck.

    Q 10,90-92:

    90 [. . .] And when he [Pharaoh] was drowning he said, “I believe that there is
    no god except He in whom the Children of Israel believe.
    I am one of those
    who submit [to Him].”
    91 “Now? And you committed rebellion before and were one of those causing
    corruption!
    92 Today We shall [only] deliver you corporeally (nunajjīka bi-badanika)5
    so that you may be a sign (āyah) to those after you [. . .]”
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10102 - April 06, 2021, 07:11 AM

    Quote
    Article reference?


    _The_peoples_beyond_the_Arabian_frontier_in_Late_Antiquity_recent_epigraphic_discoveries_and_latest _advances_édd_Dijkstra_and_Fisher_Inside_and_Out_Late_Antique_History_and_Religion_8_Leuven_Peeters_2014_pp_33 _79

    Robin already noticed the shift in Christology under abraham in the 7th century

    https://www.academia.edu/45614587/Robert_M_Kerr_Muhammad_oder_das_Meerwunder_zu_Badr

    Martin Kerr has as well very well shifted away from the traditionl reading and in this article he notices at the very end that in south arabia muhammad is referred mentioned in association with rahaman

    Gabirel Said Reynolds in Allah, GOd in the quran, alludes to the connection with the south arabiam tradiition


    I know that it is more complicated than that
    obviously there is a different arabic
    there is the influence of persian traditions

    I still have to close the gap

    Martin kerr suggests the euphratee river as origin of the quran

    Al jallad already noticed the connection (I do not remember the article)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10103 - April 06, 2021, 11:43 AM

    _The_peoples_beyond_the_Arabian_frontier_in_Late_Antiquity_recent_epigraphic_discoveries_and_latest _advances_édd_Dijkstra_and_Fisher_Inside_and_Out_Late_Antique_History_and_Religion_8_Leuven_Peeters_2014_pp_33 _79


    In the article I do not see 6th c.

    Quote
    Robin already noticed the shift in Christology under abraham in the 7th century


    For me, there is no "specific" shift with the Abraha inscription ; I do not think that Robin's interpretation is right.

    Quote
    https://www.academia.edu/45614587/Robert_M_Kerr_Muhammad_oder_das_Meerwunder_zu_Badr
    Martin Kerr has as well very well shifted away from the traditionl reading and in this article he notices at the very end that in south arabia muhammad is referred mentioned in association with rahaman
    Gabirel Said Reynolds in Allah, GOd in the quran, alludes to the connection with the south arabiam tradiition


    That Yemen can be implied one way or another is however possible.

    Quote
    I know that it is more complicated than that obviously there is a different arabic  there is the influence of persian traditions I still have to close the gap.


    Your have not finished with Yemen: continue to work.

    Quote
    Martin kerr suggests the euphratee river as origin of the quran


    Origin of the emergence.

    Quote
    Al jallad already noticed the connection (I do not remember the article)


    Search it.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10104 - April 06, 2021, 11:55 AM

    interesting answer from Altara for mundi ., that too with just Quran verses  from surah Yunus
    Quote
    Q 10,90-92:

    90 [. . .] And when he [Pharaoh] was drowning he said, “I believe that there is no god except He in whom the Children of Israel believe. I am one of those who submit [to Him].”

    91 “Now? And you committed rebellion before and were one of those causing corruption!

    92 Today We shall [only] deliver you corporeally (nunajjīka bi-badanika)5 so that you may be a sign (āyah) to those after you [. . .]”


     and let me add mundi post as pointers
    1).  I dont think the new Jewish sect necessarily needs to be supported by an older tradition. The Quranic innovation could have been thought of by a single person or a small group of persons on the spot.

    2). New ideas and new religions get invented all the time. I think Judaism was much more diverse than is generally believed. Look at the Synagogues excavated in Tiberias and its neighborhoods. Tiberias is supposed to be the centre of Rabbinic Judaism in 5-6-7th C. But the floors of the excavated synagogues are full of depictions of Sol Invictus, complete with the 4 horses and the holy stone.

    3).  So why not in a place with less centralized control, a new kind of Judaism developed, including Jesus as a side figure. There does not need to be a gradual development to get to this new idea. One man with a lot of imagination is enough.

    4). Lets say today I start a new form of Christianity with the second coming of Christ and Mohammed as a side figure. I get a rich mecenas with a few billions to make me a website and recruit people with gift vouchers. I rant against the existing Christians and call them the things the Quran calls the Jews. Doesnt take generations. Just 1 person with a "good" idea, another one to finance the lot and then some luck.


    hello Altara .. for which point of mundi you are giving that CRYOTIC RESPONSE with just Quran verses??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10105 - April 06, 2021, 01:58 PM

    Each one.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10106 - April 06, 2021, 02:37 PM

    In the article I do not see 6th c.


    page 60, expedition of madikarib yafuk over the euphratees, year 521

    "Your have not finished with Yemen: continue to work."

    any specific author to suggest?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10107 - April 06, 2021, 03:08 PM

    We have the hymiarites.
    ...
    They are arabs despite the different arabic, they are educated in christian traditions and jewish traditions.
    ...


    I'd say this is projecting a later identity back on to 6th/7th century people who spoke other (South Arabian) languages. I don't know, maybe there could have been some presence of Arabic speakers in Najran or among pastoralists on the fringes of Himyar.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10108 - April 06, 2021, 03:44 PM

    Sabaic: a thread from Ahmad Al-Jallad

    https://twitter.com/Safaitic/status/1113165831352057857
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10109 - April 06, 2021, 06:16 PM

    Imar Koutchoukali - Defining Ḥimyaritic: The linguistic landscape of southwest Arabia in the early Islamic period according to the testimony of the 9th century scholar al-Hamdani

    https://studenttheses.universiteitleiden.nl/access/item%3A2602177/view
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