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 Topic: Why is Islam different?

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  • Why is Islam different?
     OP - July 02, 2017, 02:11 PM

    Hi all,

    First thread here after being introduced to the forum by a former member I know (free spirit) so go easy on me guys!

    As I've decided to openly debate my friends on Islam lately, more and more counter arguments arise and some good points to say the least.

    The other day, my friend asked, what about other religions? Does the Bible not incite violence? Don't Sikhs look down upon those who leave their religion? Are Jews not homophobic too?

    The only thing I have right now is that Muslims act upon these violent texts, but surely that shows more of a problem with Muslims, not Islam itself as all other religions are also violent, but you don't see Hindus flying planes into buildings.

    Do you think there's a double standard here? In which way is Islam worse than the others and so is in need of reform? Alternatively, is it just as bad as the others?

    Let me know what you guys think.
  • Why is Islam different?
     Reply #1 - July 02, 2017, 04:22 PM

    Hi all,

    First thread here after being introduced to the forum by a former member I know (free spirit) so go easy on me guys!

    As I've decided to openly debate my friends on Islam lately, more and more counter arguments arise and some good points to say the least.

    Quote
    The other day, my friend asked, what about other religions?
     Does the Bible not incite violence?
    Don't Sikhs look down upon those who leave their religion?
    Are Jews not homophobic too?

    The only thing I have right now is that Muslims act upon these violent texts, but surely that shows more of a problem with Muslims, not Islam itself as all other religions are also violent,  but you don't see Hindus flying planes into buildings.


    Do you think there's a double standard here?

    hello SubbyX .,  off course there is double standard especially in the press and there is also double standard when Islamized Muslim ROBOTS  think about Sikhs and Jews  compare the violence  and misogyny of their faith sayings and faith follower w.r.t  the numbers/volume...

    Now comparing christians and hindus with Muslims is different game .. as the numbers are quite close and comparable...

    Quote
    In which way is Islam worse than the others and so is in need of reform? Alternatively, is it just as bad as the others?

    Let me know what you guys think.

    the answer to the question is clearly Yes..yes..and biiig Yessssss dear  SubbyX ..

    Ask me why? .. ask people to ask me why??  SubbyX

    I can also tell you that I can completely change Islam to be the BEST OF ALL FAITHS  and Muslims being the best human beings of all faith heads  if any one who calls himself a Muslim and  follow only two statement of mine.  Only two statements with very few words in them   "less than 15 words" dear SubbyX

    Ask me what those statement are ...

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Why is Islam different?
     Reply #2 - July 02, 2017, 06:24 PM

    Welcome, maybe you could tell us more about yourself in the introductions thread. Please do give free spirit my best.
    In regards to comparing Islam to other religions, is that really the way to discuss what might be wrong with Islam itself? Should we be measuring faiths by other faiths?
    Surely it is better to measure Islam by your reasoning, by logic, by ethics.
    We can go back and forth on canonical texts in Abrahamic faiths and others, we can cite historical precedents and etc., but the real issue should not be which faith is worse. Trends come and go in everything, religions included, and at times all of them have been responsible for atrocities. You could say lately Islam is in higher profile.
    Of course Islam needs reform. It is being interpreted in ways that make life difficult for it's adherents. Surely religion should be an instrument to grow communities together rather than to rip them apart?


    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Why is Islam different?
     Reply #3 - July 02, 2017, 06:37 PM

    Thanks for your responses.

    I'm not denying the evil in Islam, just to make it clear. I think almost everyone on this forum knows that.

    What I'm asking is, aren't they all as bad as each other? You could argue that we are simply living in a time where Islam is the worst and that could change. OR, you could say Islam generally is the worst of all.

    Now, for those who argue for the latter, I'm not saying you are wrong, what I'm asking is to convince me, given that ALL religions contain verses that generally don't conform to western civilisation.
  • Why is Islam different?
     Reply #4 - July 02, 2017, 08:43 PM

    I would say that a religion that cannot be reformed is worse. If Islam is of that particular model, time will tell.  Some advances are occurring, as are some setbacks. I don't think we know yet if the Seal can be overcome.
    You are asking for a conclusion on data that is not yet in.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Why is Islam different?
     Reply #5 - July 02, 2017, 09:37 PM

    I doubt that the Iraqis who had their homeland invaded and destroyed by a Christian-majority country, which had a leader who claimed that God told him to invade their homeland would agree that Christians don't use their religion to justify violence.
  • Why is Islam different?
     Reply #6 - July 02, 2017, 09:59 PM

    I would say that a religion that cannot be reformed is worse. If Islam is of that particular model, time will tell.  Some advances are occurring, as are some setbacks. I don't think we know yet if the Seal can be overcome.
    You are asking for a conclusion on data that is not yet in.


    That's an interesting insight.

    My view is that Islam can't be reformed as the Quran is seen as the word of God. Is Islam the only religion like this, whereby the main source of teachings is the word of a deity?
  • Why is Islam different?
     Reply #7 - July 02, 2017, 10:56 PM

    And that really is the crux of it. Yet there are reformers out there asking us to remove the Divinity from the Quran and reclaim Islam as our own creation. Agnostic Muslims. And despite their adherence to this belief, the belief in the Seal and the Divinity, we have Progressive Muslims opening all inclusive in US, South Africa, UK, and now Germany.
    The backlash has become the push for reform. It's growing. Islam is not the monoculture that the Wahabis would have us believe. It is showing it's diversity again.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Why is Islam different?
     Reply #8 - July 03, 2017, 08:34 AM

    I doubt that the Iraqis who had their homeland invaded and destroyed by a Christian-majority country, which had a leader who claimed that God told him to invade their homeland would agree that Christians don't use their religion to justify violence.

    Hello  GAWD....   I wonder where did he say that? when did he say that? and why did he say that?

    Quote


    Did he say that in UN and UN voted for that god's messiah words??  Did he say that get approved by his country US  of A congress in that  "Iraq Resolution (formally the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002"??

    Quote


    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Why is Islam different?
     Reply #9 - July 03, 2017, 08:49 AM

     
    Thanks for your responses.

    I'm not denying the evil in Islam, just to make it clear. I think almost everyone on this forum knows that.

    Nope...no ...nooooo.,   .I don't agree with you Subby., no one proved that to me .,   when we use Flat words and flat statements we have to define them.. And Islam is faith..  And as you know that the meaning for that arabic word "Islam" is "Submission to allah/god"   NOT "EVIL"

    first you have to define "Evil" and ans  the Q. what is Evil?

    Quote
    What I'm asking is, aren't they all as bad as each other?

    Again you have to give the  poof ., hand waving general statements will not work ..

    Quote
    You could argue that we are simply living in a time  where Islam is the worst and that could change. OR, you could say Islam generally is the worst of all.

    Nope     for that   and to say that "you have to present proof and history of major faiths and the actions of the faith heads that follow those faiths at a given time."

    So give me the  timeline of   faiths .. sayings from faith books  and the actions of those faith heads who use faith books to make a faith worst ..

    Quote
    Now, for those who argue for the latter, I'm not saying you are wrong, what I'm asking is to convince me, given that ALL religions contain verses that generally don't conform to western civilisation.

    what is western civilization? and what faith do they follow? what faith books do they have?

    Sorry Subby.,   this forum is NOT A CAKE WALK ..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Why is Islam different?
     Reply #10 - July 03, 2017, 09:40 PM

    And that really is the crux of it. Yet there are reformers out there asking us to remove the Divinity from the Quran and reclaim Islam as our own creation. Agnostic Muslims. And despite their adherence to this belief, the belief in the Seal and the Divinity, we have Progressive Muslims opening all inclusive in US, South Africa, UK, and now Germany.
    The backlash has become the push for reform. It's growing. Islam is not the monoculture that the Wahabis would have us believe. It is showing it's diversity again.


    Well like you said before, I guess I'm asking for a conclusion I don't yet have data on. We'll just have to see how it all folds out.
  • Why is Islam different?
     Reply #11 - July 04, 2017, 03:21 PM

    As an outsider peeking in ... these are differences I perceive rightly or wrongly between Islam and other major religions - particularly Christianity.

    1. Muslims arguably have done less harm to others than nominal Christians have over the course of history.  I certainly would not try to argue that Christians have behaved better historically.   But what I would say is that when Christians have raped and slaughtered they do it in defiance of the teachings of Jesus.   For Muslims they receive authorization for violence against non-muslims from their own sacred texts: the Koran and Hadith.

    2. Culture.  Here I attempt to answer Yeezevee's question on 'what is Western Civilization'.  It is an amalgam of Jerusalem and Athens.   Judeo-Christian faith and Greek philosophy.  But we've somehow arrived at a place where freedom of inquiry and expression are highly valued human rights.   My impression is that the same cannot be said for most Islamic countries where fear and intimidation to one extent or another discourages individuals from seeking and following their own path in life.

    3.  Western culture is now in a decadent period of decline.  We are becoming more stupid, less brave, less honorable and we richly deserve any ridicule coming our way.  Our hallowed institutions of government, press and universities are occupied for the most part by intellectual pigmies.   The moral seriousness of many muslims could benefit western society - if it can be un-coupled from Islam!

    4. Islam was a latecomer and moved religion in a backward direction.  Christians have the concept of 'Old Testament' for the Jewish stories and development, and 'New Testament' for the life of Jesus, his teachings and of course the writings and works of Paul of Tarsus (father of the Christian church).   New Testament is a much kinder and gentler account of man and God that Old Testament.   Humanity was entering a new chapter of greater freedom, dignity and opportunity.  Islam took too much from Judaism - that was rules based and oppressive.   That's why I think it is a concoction of the Arab Empire and is fundamentally so flawed it has to be deconstructed and discarded for human progress globally.

  • Why is Islam different?
     Reply #12 - July 19, 2017, 07:14 PM

    Sorry if this is the wrong thread, but the topic seems right one to answer Yeezevee and Three's questions and assertions on violence in the New Testament and Christian eschatology.

    My post above this one reflects my main thoughts on main differences between Islam vs Christianity re: violence and reform, and there's nothing I would change. It is a general rather than specific response to the challenges posed by Y and 3.  The biblical texts are open to interpretation and if I offered my interpretation, and those given me growing up as an Anglican the justifiable response would be: well Muslims also interpret the Quran and Hadith to lead to peaceful conclusions and lives.  So rather than belabor the arguments over violent texts in the NT I will try to use the historical record to point out differences.

    I'm currently reading The Secret History of Christianity by Philip Jenkins (published by Harper).  It focuses on Eastern Christianity (Mesopotamia, Syria, Palestine, Iran, Egypt).   It tries to correct the common misunderstanding that everything important in Christianity after the death of Christ happened in Europe.   The Eastern Christian communities (Jacobite and Nestorian) were vastly larger than those in Europe in late antiquity and followed a monophysite christological understanding in sharp opposition to Orthodox Constantinian Christianity.   Important to this discussion is that after the 7th and 8th century Arab conquests Eastern Christianity continued to grow and thrive for 600 years!   Its only in the 14th century that sharp antagonisms led to widespread violent persecution.   Prior to that there was harmony and co-operation.   The patriarch Timothy was a close friend of and advisor to Abbasid Caliphs.

    So here is another example of tolerant Islamic rule over a multi-cultural and multi-religious population.

    I do think that this was at least partly due to rational political calculation on the part of the Arab (Muslim?) rulers.  Hoyland states that in the 7th century CE 200,000 Arabs conquered 20-30 million Christians (90%) and Jews (10%).   Throw in a few Zoroastrians too.   The Arabs were semi-literate nomads who suddenly had vast land possessions, fabulous wealth and a more sophisticated subject population.   The Arabs understood that they now needed tax collectors, accountants, diplomats, translators, lawyers ... etc etc to run their Empire.  They naturally turned to the people who had fulfilled those offices for the Byzantine and Sassanian empires.   They got a good deal of their new theology that way too.

    That this all collapsed into violent oppression in the 14th century is very sad.  And I haven't read that part of the book yet.  But it is no coincidence that Islamic State theologians prefer the 'scholarly' opinions of Islamic authors of the intolerant 14th century.

    Western Catholicism's sins are legion and pretty famous.  The violent suppression of the aryan and albigensian heretics being just one illustrative example.  But it has never been NT text that drove and informed the violent actions of the Popes of the Middle Ages.   It was their pact with the secular power devil that led them to violent excess, and in that respect there is little to separate Pope from Caliph.

  • Why is Islam different?
     Reply #13 - July 19, 2017, 09:12 PM

    Quote
    Sorry if this is the wrong thread,

    .... answer Yeezevee and Three's .............
    ..........It is a general rather than specific response to the challenges posed by Y and 3. ............

    ........  Hoyland states that in the 7th century CE 200,000 Arabs conquered 20-30 million Christians (90%) and Jews (10%).   Throw in a few Zoroastrians too.

    As an outsider peeking in ... these are differences I perceive rightly or wrongly between Islam and other major religions - particularly Christianity.

    1. Muslims arguably have done less harm to others than nominal Christians have over the course of history.  I certainly would not try to argue that Christians have behaved better historically.  
    Quote
    But what I would say is that when Christians have raped and slaughtered they do it in defiance of the teachings of Jesus.   For Muslims they receive authorization for violence against non-muslims from their own sacred texts: the Koran and Hadith.


    Quote
    2. Culture.  Here I attempt to answer Yeezevee's question on 'what is Western Civilization'.  It is an amalgam of Jerusalem and Athens.   Judeo-Christian faith and Greek philosophy.  But we've somehow arrived at a place where freedom of inquiry and expression are highly valued human rights.  My impression is that the same cannot be said for most Islamic countries where fear and intimidation to one extent or another discourages individuals from seeking and following their own path in life

    .

    Quote
    3.  Western culture is now in a decadent period of decline.  We are becoming more stupid, less brave, less honorable and we richly deserve any ridicule coming our way.  Our hallowed institutions of government, press and universities are occupied for the most part by intellectual pigmies.   The moral seriousness of many muslims could benefit western society - if it can be un-coupled from Islam!


    Quote
    4. Islam was a latecomer and moved religion in a backward direction.  Christians have the concept of 'Old Testament' for the Jewish stories and development, and 'New Testament' for the life of Jesus, his teachings and of course the writings and works of Paul of Tarsus (father of the Christian church).   New Testament is a much kinder and gentler account of man and God that Old Testament.  

     Humanity was entering a new chapter of greater freedom, dignity and opportunity.    Islam took too much from Judaism - that was rules based and oppressive.  That's why I think it is a concoction of the Arab Empire and is fundamentally so flawed it has to be deconstructed and discarded for human progress globally.


    Y has too much on his plate unifier.,  but I do agree with your point

    "Humanity was/is  entering a new chapter of greater freedom, dignity and opportunity. "

    So which religion, which faith and who  is the  faith head/s  that should take credit for Humanity  entering a new chapter of greater freedom, dignity and opportunity??  dear Unifier??

    I say this is rubbish
    Quote
    3.  Western culture is now in a decadent period of decline.  We are becoming more stupid, less brave, less honorable and we richly deserve any ridicule coming our way.  Our hallowed institutions of government, press and universities are occupied for the most part by intellectual pigmies.  

     but anyway., Why is this happening dear unifier .,  Why  Western culture is now in a decadent period of decline?

    Do you think Western culture  was good before 2dworld war??
     
     
    Quote
    The moral seriousness of many muslims could benefit western society - if it can be un-coupled from Islam!

    In your view, what do you think is the best way to uncouple Islam from Muslims?  There is so much on my plate and there are so many questions to negate any way it is good to talk .... U Y 3  should talk often

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
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