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 Topic: How do we prevent radicalisation? - Tom Holland

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  • How do we prevent radicalisation? - Tom Holland
     Reply #30 - May 31, 2015, 01:59 AM

    ^ But the problem is that when you have intellectual debates about Islam, it just makes most Muslims more defensive. They are already defensive because many Muslims don't have a comfortable lifestyle.  So when there are debates about Islam, it does not make them lower their guard and be open to other points views. It just makes them more hostile.

    Since I would say 2001 there have been hundreds of documentaries, interviews, debates and articles about highlighting the criticism of Islam. It's 2015 now and there has been no progression. In fact we have ISIS and have Muslims from middle class backgrounds trying to join them. S

     your mixing different subjects.,. and you seem not to realize that that ISIS or al-Qaeda.., Al-Badr.. al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades..Al-Nusra Front....Al-Shabaab...Boko Haram.. BULL SHIT HARAM.. Al SHIT HARAM didn't come out because some one is critical of Islamic texts..

    Quote
    All I'm saying is that let's have a break from debating Islam. Let's everything cool down and just try to solve common social and economic related issues. Get everyone on the same platform. Once the majority have rights and security, then they will feel more comfortable to listening.

    In terms of Richard Dawkins, I was not attacking him, nor was I putting him under the same umbrella as Palmer Pamela Geller. If you read my post carefully as it is, I'm saying when high profiled individuals like him try to criticise Islam, it does not make Muslims adopt critically thinking skills. It makes them more defensive.  .......

    Well you did put them together., as If both are equally HIGH PROFILE INDIVIDUALS., I am not sure you can compare  the contributions of these two individuals., Also   someone1991 you must note that Prof. Dawkins   does  equally good job with Christianity and Judaism in his criticism unlike that pamela geller.,

    And I wonder whether you have this also in mind that "Christians and Jews could adopt Critical thinking about their religion but Muslims can not?

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • How do we prevent radicalisation? - Tom Holland
     Reply #31 - May 31, 2015, 02:17 AM

    I'm sorry but you have to learn to read my posts as it is without twisting it to suit your own agenda. It is one thing to disagree but another to misrepresent my thoughts.

    It is quite simple. The more you debate and challenge Islam, the more defensive Muslims gets. For centuries Islam has been debated and there are still millions of Muslims following the faith. Now due to a increase in technological and scientific advancements, it is should easier to debate religion, however I do not see flocks of Muslims leaving the religion.

    Now I did not say preventing Islamic debates will help Muslims to get basic rights and security. What I am saying is that once we help Muslims to get their basic rights and security, then it would be for the best to hold intellectual discussions about all religions. Why do you think most Muslims follow Islam? Because it gives them a source of comfort and security in a world where it is lacking.
    Once most Muslims in the world have a good lifestyle, I would not be surprised to see them adopt critical thinking skills and are more open to question certain old beliefs.

    An ordinary Muslim in India is not going to care about some expert debating about Islam. These people are focusing on having the money to survive the next day. Islam or any other ideology can give these people some sort of comfort because they think prayer is going to help them.

    [As for Muslims who are wealthier, the main reason they turn to Islam is because of geo-political conflicts. If you really view the conflicts between Muslim countries and western countries as good vs evil and fail to acknowledge the shades of grey that accommodate these conflicts, then I'm afraid I cannot help you because I don't have time to summarise the history of the last 100 years.
    All I can say is this. You can continue debating this religion over and over again in its current fashion. I bet all my savings that nothing is going to change if you continue to adopt the current approach. You are just wasting your own time and energy. What happens when the current approach is not working? You switch it up and experiment with other approaches which is what I was doing.


    you seem to be running in circles here someone1991., let me hide most of your text and highlight your shortcomings ..

    So poor Muslims fight for Islam because they are poor  and Rich Muslims fight for Islam because they are rich.. is that what you want to say?  

    And what all we need to get rid of Islamic terror is   Muslims to get their basic rights and security

    So how do we do that? what do we need to do? and WHAT ARE THE BASIC RIGHTS IN YOUR NECK OF THE WORLD .,
    and  what do you understand by "Basic rights"??  are you talking about basic rights in Islam ? Basic rights of Muslim folks? or basic rights of Human beings??

    and let me add some links for you to read..

    Quote
    Understanding the new militants of Pakistan by MUHAMMAD AMIR RANA

    There is a long list of high profile terrorists hailing from educated middle-classes in Pakistan.

    Daniel Pearl murderer Omar Saeed Sheikh, Al Qaeda IT expert Naeem Noor Khan, Al Qaeda operative Dr Arshad Waheed, Time Square bombing planner Faisal Shahzad, Danish embassy bombing culprit Hamad Adil, and hijacker of a navy frigate at Karachi dockyard Owais Jakhrani are just few names.


    Quote
    The extremism debate by MUHAMMAD AMIR RANA

    THE alleged involvement of educated youths in Karachi’s Safoora Goth massacre has once again ignited the debate on growing extremism among educated and higher-income groups.  Militant organisations in Pakistan increasingly use the internet to promote extremism and spur recruitment, with the youth from middle-income groups as their specific target. International terrorist organisations such as Al Qaeda and the self-styled Islamic State have also benefited from this level of extremism, in the form of generating financial and human resources, as well as a favourable perception among the population in some parts of the country.


    Please read both articles..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • How do we prevent radicalisation? - Tom Holland
     Reply #32 - May 31, 2015, 05:00 AM

    Just a quick skim of recent history shows that some western countries are to blame for some of what is happening in Muslim countries (e.g. distributing religious materials from saudi arabia, training egyptian security forces to torture, imposing the shah of iran, mishandling the entire palestinian/israel conflict and so on). Now it is getting worse.

    then I'm afraid I cannot help you because I don't have time to summarise the history of the last 100 years.

    Okay, I'm asking you again, giving the knowledge of history that you have, do you think it would be appropriate for you to introduce a "some of" in your own paragraph ahead? I highlighted for you the place to do it.


    I'm sorry but you have to learn to read my posts as it is without twisting it to suit your own agenda. It is one thing to disagree but another to misrepresent my thoughts.

    It is quite simple. The more you debate and challenge Islam, the more defensive Muslims gets. For centuries Islam has been debated and there are still millions of Muslims following the faith. Now due to a increase in technological and scientific advancements, it is should easier to debate religion, however I do not see flocks of Muslims leaving the religion.

    Now I did not say preventing Islamic debates will help Muslims to get basic rights and security. What I am saying is that once we help Muslims to get their basic rights and security, then it would be for the best to hold intellectual discussions about all religions. Why do you think most Muslims follow Islam? Because it gives them a source of comfort and security in a world where it is lacking. Once most Muslims in the world have a good lifestyle, I would not be surprised to see them adopt critical thinking skills and are more open to question certain old beliefs.

    An ordinary Muslim in India is not going to care about some expert debating about Islam. These people are focusing on having the money to survive the next day. Islam or any other ideology can give these people some sort of comfort because they think prayer is going to help them.

    As for Muslims who are wealthier, the main reason they turn to Islam is because of geo-political conflicts. If you really view the conflicts between Muslim countries and western countries as good vs evil and fail to acknowledge the shades of grey that accommodate these conflicts, then I'm afraid I cannot help you because I don't have time to summarise the history of the last 100 years.

    All I can say is this. You can continue debating this religion over and over again in its current fashion. I bet all my savings that nothing is going to change if you continue to adopt the current approach. You are just wasting your own time and energy. What happens when the current approach is not working? You switch it up and experiment with other approaches which is what I was doing.


    But how we will help Muslims to get their basic rights and security if we install a moratorium on debating Islam? As far as it is, one of the main reasons for which Europeans came out from medieval age and enjoy what I understand by "basic rights", was criticizing Christianity, and many died because of this.

    What are these "basic rights" and "security" for you, could you please elaborate?
    Later edit: I see yeeze asked you the same question

    good vs evil. Can you quote me where I express this views "view the conflicts between Muslim countries and western countries as good vs evil and fail to acknowledge the shades of grey that accommodate these conflicts"

    Let me tell you what I see: conflicts between Muslim countries and Muslim countries and inside Muslim countries. Who is the good and who's the evil?
  • How do we prevent radicalisation? - Tom Holland
     Reply #33 - May 31, 2015, 08:36 AM

    I don't think we can directly prevent radicalisation. But what we can do is help create a valid and convincing counter narrative which will undermine the radicalisation process.

    Islamic radicalism will die out when its appeal is exhausted and its poverty of ideas is exposed.

    Hell is an absurd & wicked fiction. You're not a bad person for rejecting something that's cruel, irrational, unjust & lacks evidence. You have nothing to fear. Nothing to feel ashamed about. Enjoy your life. Do the best you can. Make yourself & others happy.
  • How do we prevent radicalisation? - Tom Holland
     Reply #34 - May 31, 2015, 12:16 PM

    your mixing different subjects.,. and you seem not to realize that that ISIS or al-Qaeda.., Al-Badr.. al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades..Al-Nusra Front....Al-Shabaab...Boko Haram.. BULL SHIT HARAM.. Al SHIT HARAM didn't come out because some one is critical of Islamic texts..


    That is not the point. The point is ordinary Muslims are joining these militant groups. Why? Because of geo-political conflicts. These middle class Muslims cannot even identify with their own country of origin because it is individuals like Pamler Geller who constantly portray Muslims in a negative light. So when you have a Muslim living in a country where all they hear about is the negativity of Muslims and Islam, they have no sense of attachment to that country, thus providing the mindset to join militant groups.

    Quote
    Well you did put them together., as If both are equally HIGH PROFILE INDIVIDUALS.,


    So what? They are both well known individuals. Okay they come from different backgrounds but they have something in common which is that they are critics of Islam.

    Quote
    I am not sure you can compare  the contributions of these two individuals., Also   someone1991 you must note that Prof. Dawkins   does  equally good job with Christianity and Judaism in his criticism unlike that pamela geller.,


    It does not matter about the quality of those criticism. Some are constructive.  Others are not. The point is let's cool down.  There is no point debating a religion where it has been debated to death and nothing good came out of it. What is the point?

    I don't even need to debate about debating a religion. You can continue your futile quest to debate Islam whilst hoping thousands of Muslims will leave as a result. I will wait patiently for the end result.

    Quote
    you seem to be running in circles here someone1991., let me hide most of your text and highlight your shortcomings ..


    No my friend. Just read those comments in context.

    Quote
    So poor Muslims fight for Islam because they are poor  and Rich Muslims fight for Islam because they are rich.. is that what you want to say? 


    Lol no no no. Just keep rereading the post please. If Lua can understand what I am saying, then so can you.




  • How do we prevent radicalisation? - Tom Holland
     Reply #35 - May 31, 2015, 01:02 PM

    Quote
    If Lua can understand what I am saying, then so can you.


    ...Hey! Grin
  • How do we prevent radicalisation? - Tom Holland
     Reply #36 - May 31, 2015, 02:33 PM

    That is not the point. The point is ordinary Muslims are joining these militant groups.

    Nonsense .. No.. such Muslim bums can not be ordinary Muslim folks.  They can not be ordinary Muslims.,  they are extraordinary Muslims, extraordinarily brain washed.,   or Muslim bums .,

    What do you mean by ordinary Muslims...? the guy  looking for education, job .. safety of family ??  No.. they don't care .. they just struggle., struggle to compete in this complex world .. 

    Quote
    Why? Because of geo-political conflicts.

    ...
    only geopolitical  conflicts? that is it?? I am not sure about that ., what geopolitical  conflicts these guys have to join terror groups?

    Quote


    See each face and tell me geopolitical conflicts these guys had.  These scoundrels joined Islam just 5 or 10 years back., they have geo-political problems??   FIT FOR NOTHING Scoundrels  who join terror groups have geological problems??  Political problems, ??   No no they have Physiological problems, psychological problems, mental problems,  problems with in family ., anger management problems, finishing school problems ,  getting brain washed in Mosques problems..and what not.....

    Off course across the nations Muslims or non-Muslims,  they all have geo-political problems.. Argentina has problems with England.,   So what? And  where do we have  REAL GEO-POLITICAL PROBLEMS with Islam.,  name it.. .. let us discuss and let us formulate a way to solve them.

    Quote
    ..These middle class Muslims cannot even identify with their own country of origin because it is individuals like Pamler Geller who constantly portray Muslims in a negative light. So when you have a Muslim living in a country where all they hear about is the negativity of Muslims and Islam, they have no sense of attachment to that country, thus providing the mindset to join militant groups.

    well then educate that Pamela Geller  and every time you spell that lady name differently.. and write some encouraging things about Islam in this forum..

    Quote
    So what? They are both well known individuals. Okay they come from different backgrounds but they have something in common which is that they are critics of Islam.

    Nonsense...  Apple, oranges,, cactus,,  Coyote melon.. they are all fruits .. don't put them together and do not eat them in the same way..
    Quote
    It does not matter about the quality of those criticism. Some are constructive.  Others are not. The point is let's cool down.  There is no point debating a religion where it has been debated to death and nothing good came out of it. What is the point?

    who is debating with who?  no one is debating here.,  .. People here are airing the views and people here are making those internet savoys that want to learn about religions  to know the pitfalls of  religions and writers here  are telling the readers that  if you don't use brain you will rundown in to black hole  in the life., you call it as terror group..
    Quote
    I don't even need to debate about debating a religion. You can continue your futile quest to debate Islam whilst hoping thousands of Muslims will leave as a result. I will wait patiently for the end result.

    No my friend. Just read those comments in context.

    well for you Patience may be option.  So,  be patient  but don't make it as habit and Do not let silence become your legacy

    Quote
    Lol no no no. Just keep rereading the post please. If Lua can understand what I am saying, then so can you.

    keep reading what  someone1991? you hardly write that is relevant. Well as far as Lua is concerned., be careful she has the habit of kicking people with 3 page text when they least expect.  But now she being a mod mellowed a bit. Any way I am glad you are reading and writing in to CEMB..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • How do we prevent radicalisation? - Tom Holland
     Reply #37 - June 19, 2015, 11:22 PM

    Interview with Tom Holland

    http://www.quadrapheme.com/mission-impossible-an-interview-with-tom-holland/
  • How do we prevent radicalisation? - Tom Holland
     Reply #38 - June 20, 2015, 12:24 AM

    Well thats one optimistic Tommy Holland...NOT ^_^
  • How do we prevent radicalisation? - Tom Holland
     Reply #39 - July 03, 2015, 05:51 PM

    'So-called Islamic State': what's in a name?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02w5l0y
  • How do we prevent radicalisation? - Tom Holland
     Reply #40 - July 04, 2015, 06:51 AM

    ^  I did enjoy the soundtrack.

  • How do we prevent radicalisation? - Tom Holland
     Reply #41 - August 10, 2018, 06:38 PM

    Podcast: Tom Holland in conversation with Ed Husain - Islam’s struggle with modernity

    https://www.historyextra.com/period/modern/islams-struggle-with-modernity/
  • How do we prevent radicalisation? - Tom Holland
     Reply #42 - August 10, 2018, 11:40 PM

    Imagine still considering Tom Holland relevant to anything to do with Islam in the year 2018.
  • How do we prevent radicalisation? - Tom Holland
     Reply #43 - August 11, 2018, 12:31 AM

    What’s your critique of him?
  • How do we prevent radicalisation? - Tom Holland
     Reply #44 - August 11, 2018, 05:19 PM

    Other than his apparent investment in recreating the Victorian Gentleman Scholar, you mean? Personally, I reckon that his brand determines his literary and social media output; sensational (being a good student of Herodotus), prone to precis of secondary, tertiary or quarternary sources, and the supremely idealist view that noble values guide history. Social and historical dynamics, not so much.

    This tendency to anti-materialist analysis allows him to say things like this and expect to it to be no impediment to being taken seriously.



    I don't know about anyone else, but I've not been alone in seeing him increasingly flirting with a strand of increasingly reactionary establishment politics. Note again the apparent commitment to emulating a particular school of enthusiastically amateurish Victorian gentleman.

    What prompted this particular expression of contempt was this particular Twitter thread yesterday:

    https://twitter.com/holland_tom/status/1027983168849240065

    As to what he might have to say about Islam and modernity; frankly, I'm not convinced that it will contain anything substantially different to some variant of public wisdom, and I have better things to do.
  • How do we prevent radicalisation? - Tom Holland
     Reply #45 - August 11, 2018, 06:05 PM

    Thanks toor.

    I quite like Tom Holland but I think he has serious limitations as a historian and a commentator. The Ash Sarkar, Israel and blood libel thing is odd - I’m not even sure what the logic of it was. The podcast in the link is more of an interview with Ed Husain about his latest book. I’m no fan of Ed Husain but I thought it had some interest as a presentation of a reformist Muslim position.

    If you’d like an attack on Tom Holland from a more serious historian there’s this three part article by Guy Halsall from a couple of years ago:

    https://600transformer.blogspot.com/2015/12/the-refugee-crisis-paris-attacks-and.html

    https://600transformer.blogspot.com/2015/12/the-refugee-crisis-paris-attacks-and_8.html

    https://600transformer.blogspot.com/2015/12/the-refugee-crisis-paris-attacks-and_11.html



  • How do we prevent radicalisation? - Tom Holland
     Reply #46 - August 11, 2018, 06:32 PM

    Thanks for the steer, zeca - will give it a read.
  • How do we prevent radicalisation? - Tom Holland
     Reply #47 - August 12, 2018, 09:58 AM

    Thanks toor.

    I quite like Tom Holland but I think he has serious limitations as a historian and a commentator. The Ash Sarkar, Israel and blood libel thing is odd - I’m not even sure what the logic of it was. The podcast in the link is more of an interview with Ed Husain about his latest book. I’m no fan of Ed Husain but I thought it had some interest as a presentation of a reformist Muslim position.

    If you’d like an attack on Tom Holland from a more serious historian there’s this three part article by Guy Halsall from a couple of years ago:

    https://600transformer.blogspot.com/2015/12/the-refugee-crisis-paris-attacks-and.html

    https://600transformer.blogspot.com/2015/12/the-refugee-crisis-paris-attacks-and_8.html

    https://600transformer.blogspot.com/2015/12/the-refugee-crisis-paris-attacks-and_11.html

    well when we question   certain existing concepts in any field of investigation,   we must question EVERYTHING ., In that sense neither Tom Holland nor Guy Halsall are unquestionable ... But I certainly like  Guy Halsall and his works w.r.t the History of King Arthur ..

    And I have to agree with toor ., "that Tom Holland often sounds like amateurish Victorian era gentleman"  and he is milking Islamic history  works of others like dr. Patricia Crone to become great historian of Islam in these  internet times   . But his books are OK w.r.t Islam  they are same/similar to   Guy Halsall's  work  History of King Arthur

    So dear zeca   what is you opinion on this

    Quote
    ..........This is perhaps the central point that I am trying to work through in
    Quote
    Why History Doesn’t Matter: that the past has no force in and of itself and cannot force anyone to do anything. It is people who use a view of the past to justify what they are doing in the present that causes the problems.

     No knowledge of any actual ‘facts’ of the past will be ‘relevant’ in helping you understand, confront or challenge that in any fundamental fashion.  This seems to me to be an obvious point but it apparently eludes a depressingly large number of the practitioners of history (by which I mean not raconteurs like Holland but actual bona fide historians) and that surely constitutes serious grounds for concern............

     
    raconteurs....  raconteurs .... raconteurs
    ..............someone who tells funny or interesting stories...........

    The question is   "Are these funny or interesting stories on history of Islam real or they just made-up stories on the way exploring early Islam with some ulterior motives "  and those deleted words of Guy Halsall.. Am I  right saying "He was wrong"?

    So back to the subject.,   the folder's question ..

    How do we prevent radicalization in Islam ? for that matter in any faith??

    on that I like to readAdam Deen


    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • How do we prevent radicalisation? - Tom Holland
     Reply #48 - August 12, 2018, 12:13 PM

    well when we question   certain existing concepts in any field of investigation,   we must question EVERYTHING ., In that sense neither Tom Holland nor Guy Halsall are unquestionable ... But I certainly like  Guy Halsall and his works w.r.t the History of King Arthur ..

    Yes, I’d recommend Guy Halsall’s book Worlds of Arthur, and also his work on the barbarian migrations which is, I think, the central area of his research.
    Quote
    And I have to agree with toor ., "that Tom Holland often sounds like amateurish Victorian era gentleman"  and he is milking Islamic history  works of others like dr. Patricia Crone to become great historian of Islam in these  internet times   . But his books are OK w.r.t Islam  they are same/similar to   Guy Halsall's  work  History of King Arthur

    I’d say Tom Holland did a creditable job with the Shadow of the Sword. Otherwise there isn’t that much popularising (as opposed to academic) history about the period that isn’t written with either an apologetic or an anti-Muslim agenda. There’s a role for people doing this kind of writing, along with being a TV historian and the like. I can see what you’re saying about a similarity between Shadow of the Sword and Worlds of Arthur but Guy Halsall’s writing does have a lot more academic grounding.
    Quote
    So dear zeca   what is you opinion on this
     No knowledge of any actual ‘facts’ of the past will be ‘relevant’ in helping you understand, confront or challenge that in any fundamental fashion.  This seems to me to be an obvious point but it apparently eludes a depressingly large number of the practitioners of history (by which I mean not raconteurs like Holland but actual bona fide historians) and that surely constitutes serious grounds for concern............
    raconteurs....  raconteurs .... raconteurs
    ..............someone who tells funny or interesting stories...........

    The question is   "Are these funny or interesting stories on history of Islam real or they just made-up stories on the way exploring early Islam with some ulterior motives "  and those deleted words of Guy Halsall.. Am I  right saying "He was wrong"?

    Well “raconteur” sounds a bit harsh to me. I think Holland does have a weakness for traditional rise of the west/clash of civilisations narratives rather than fully questioning them. He’s also got a soft spot for Christianity and is I think a Church of England member of sorts - maybe that qualifies him as a kind of agnostic Christian.

    Here’s the full quote from Guy Halsall:
    Quote
    This is perhaps the central point that I am trying to work through in Why History Doesn’t Matter: that the past has no force in and of itself and cannot force anyone to do anything.  It is people who use a view of the past to justify what they are doing in the present that causes the problems.  No knowledge of any actual ‘facts’ of the past will be ‘relevant’ in helping you understand, confront or challenge that in any fundamental fashion.  This seems to me to be an obvious point but it apparently eludes a depressingly large number of the practitioners of history (by which I mean not raconteurs like Holland but actual bona fide historians) and that surely constitutes serious grounds for concern.

    The words you’ve deleted do sound like too strong a claim to me.
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