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Theme Changer

 Topic: How do we prevent radicalisation? - Tom Holland

 (Read 13697 times)
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  • How do we prevent radicalisation? - Tom Holland
     OP - September 29, 2014, 01:25 PM

    http://www.theosthinktank.co.uk/comment/2014/09/28/how-do-we-prevent-radicalisation-by-tom-holland
    Quote
    Over the past few years, Western leaders whose knowledge of Muslim scripture is scanty in the extreme have repeatedly been obliged to pose as experts on Islam. The atrocities currently being committed by jihadis in the Middle East have prompted them to a particular slew of commentary. John Kerry, speaking recently in Iraq, was typical. The Islamic State, he declared, “claims to be fighting on behalf of Islam but the fact is that its hateful ideology has nothing to do with Islam.” A reassuring assertion, and one that almost everyone, including the vast majority of Muslims, would desperately like to believe – but wishful thinking, all the same.

    The grim truth is that sanctions can be found in the Qur’an, in the biographies of Muhammad and in the histories of early Islam for much that strikes the outside world as most horrific about the Islamic state. “Kuffar are afraid we will slaughter yazidis,” a British jihadi tweeted recently from Syria, “our deen [religion/ law] is clear we will kill their men, take their women and children as slaves insha Allah.” That this reading of assorted qur’anic verses and episodes from the life of the Prophet is the most brutal one imaginable does not necessarily invalidate it. To be sure, there are other, richer, more nuanced interpretations possible – and yes, the bone-headed literalism of those who would interpret the Qur’an as a license to maim, enslave and kill represents a challenge to everyone who prizes it as a revelation from God, supremely compassionate and supremely wise. That is no reason, though, to play the jihadis’ own takfiri game, and deny them a status as Muslims. The very appeal of their sanguinary interpretation of Islamic scripture is far too lethal to permit such a tactic. It is not enough to engage with the jihadis solely on the battlefield. They must be defeated as well in mosques, and libraries, and seminar rooms. This is a battle that, in the long run, can only be won by theologians.

    How best to establish, for instance, that the actions of jihadis in beheading their foes are indeed contrary to Islam? Fighters for the Islamic State might well point out that the Qur’an describes angels decapitating unbelievers with the aim of spreading terror; that the first Muslims are described as harvesting heads on the battlefield of Badr; that Muhammad himself is said to have owned a sword that can be translated as ‘Cleaver of Vertebrae’. It is not enough, within such a context, merely to insist that Islam is a religion of peace, and leave it at that. Muslim scholars have an urgent responsibility to demonstrate in the most painstaking detail exactly where and why the jihadis are wrong. Just as Christian intellectuals, in the wake of the Holocaust, were obliged to confront the evil purposes to which the New Testament had been put, and recalibrate their understanding of it on a theological level, so do their Muslim counterparts today need to redeem their own scriptures from the taint of savagery that is doing so much to blacken the image of their religion. 

    One possible methodology for helping to achieve this might derive from an unexpected source: the scholarly revolution which over the past forty years has revolutionised historians’ understanding of early Islam and the origins of the Qur’an. It is a piquant irony that the salafist impulse to strip away the cladding of tradition, and return to an understanding of Islam’s beginnings that does not depend upon subsequent accretions and distortions to the historical record, has had a close parallel in universities. Where Salafists locate the radiant light of certainty, though, Western scholars have tended to find the opposite.

    “Qur’anic studies, as a field of academic research, appears today to be in a state of disarray.” Such is the frank admission of Fred Donner, Professor of Near Eastern History at Chicago. “Those of us who study Islam’s origins,” he has confessed, “have to admit collectively that we simply do not know some very basic things about the Qur’an – things so basic that the knowledge of them is usually taken for granted by scholars dealing with other texts.” Its place of origin, its original form, its initial audience – all are mysteries. That being so, it is certainly no longer possible to presume that there is anything remotely self-evident about the birth of Islam. Indeed, it is hard to think of any other field of history so currently riven by disagreement.

    In time, this inexorable process of historicisation is bound to have an impact upon the literalism with which many Muslims today are tempted to interpret their scriptures. When the evidence for what the historical Muhammad said and did is so patchy, and when the traditional explanations of how the Qur’an emerged are so contested, it becomes increasingly difficult to insist that the inheritance of Islamic scripture is not thoroughly contingent. At the moment, the notion that Muslim beliefs are as historically conditioned as any other ideology inherited from the past is seen by most Muslims as highly threatening; but in the long run this will surely change. Recognising that the stories told about Muhammad are fictions bred of a particular context and period, and that the potential interpretations of the Qur’an need not necessarily be circumscribed by traditional exegesis, should facilitate the emergence, over the course of the next century, of a clearly Western form of Islam. It is one, I suspect and very much hope, in which there will no longer be a place for ritual beheading.

  • How do we prevent radicalisation? - Tom Holland
     Reply #1 - October 03, 2014, 09:28 AM

    Good article, Zeca.

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • How do we prevent radicalisation? - Tom Holland
     Reply #2 - October 03, 2014, 09:49 AM

     Afro

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • How do we prevent radicalisation? - Tom Holland
     Reply #3 - October 03, 2014, 01:33 PM

    Not sure.  If one can read certain "scriptures" in different ways, maybe the solution is to stop going back to these human words for"truthinesses"?

    And dump all religion as ill informed and mistaken.  Anything good in them is despite not because.

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • How do we prevent radicalisation? - Tom Holland
     Reply #4 - October 03, 2014, 01:57 PM


     There is a serious problem with Tom Holland's article and his argument ., What he is doing is actually trying to burn the roots of Islam. If I say same words in a mosque.,   Muslims,  Islamic preachers and Islamic intellectuals will project  those who accepts Tom Holland's  arguments as apostates or Islamphobes., Let me  take few words of his article here ...

    Quote
    How do we prevent radicalization? by Tom Holland

    1).  The grim truth is that sanctions can be found in the Qur’an, in the biographies of Muhammad and in the histories of early Islam for much that strikes the outside world as most horrific about the Islamic state. “

    2.     Just as Christian intellectuals, in the wake of the Holocaust, were obliged to confront the evil purposes to which the New Testament had been put, and recalibrate their understanding of it on a theological level, so do their Muslim counterparts today need to redeem their own scriptures from the taint of savagery that is doing so much to blacken the image of their religion.  

    Muslims will consider such as an argument as an insult to Prophet of Islam and Islam  and that is the end of  discussion..  

    I will point out more later from his article. But  people must realize leaving scripture/books/history aside and irrespective of what Christian, Muslims religious preachers preach there is a fundamental differences in these two CREATED CARTOON CHARACTERS   Jesus Christ and Muhammad.   Muhammad himself is a big problem in Islam.. where as Christ is not  a problem for Christianity  ..

    I go different way to de-radicalize brain washed Muslim fools  and my way  to start with  is ...... .THERE WAS NO MUHAMMAD THAT YOU SEE/READ IN HADITH  IN THE HISTORY OF ISLAM.  period

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • How do we prevent radicalisation? - Tom Holland
     Reply #5 - October 03, 2014, 02:57 PM

    ^how is that approach working out for you, Yeezy?

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • How do we prevent radicalisation? - Tom Holland
     Reply #6 - October 03, 2014, 03:18 PM

    ^how is that approach working out for you, Yeezy?

    trust me Cato .,  it works well with well educated Muslim folks  because it shields Muhammad and makes him as unknown character/figure head whose life story  yet to be researched and discovered .. Off course that doesn't work with  IDIOTS IN ISLAM   and IDIOTS IN POWER in so-called Islamic lands

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • How do we prevent radicalisation? - Tom Holland
     Reply #7 - October 27, 2014, 04:07 PM

    Tom Holland on the Qur'an:
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nwo5xpO390k
  • How do we prevent radicalisation? - Tom Holland
     Reply #8 - October 27, 2014, 04:28 PM

    Tom Holland's review of Lesley Hazleton's The First Muslim:
    https://www.scribd.com/mobile/doc/219153739

    Tom Holland's review of Karen Armstrong's Fields of Blood: Religion and the History of Violence:
    https://www.scribd.com/mobile/doc/244593373
  • How do we prevent radicalisation? - Tom Holland
     Reply #9 - May 27, 2015, 02:03 PM

    Tom Holland presents 'De-Radicalising Muhammad' - The Christopher Hitchens lecture at the Hay Festival
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=I5slk97ss2Q
  • How do we prevent radicalisation? - Tom Holland
     Reply #10 - May 28, 2015, 04:12 PM

    ^^ that was good
  • How do we prevent radicalisation? - Tom Holland
     Reply #11 - May 28, 2015, 04:58 PM

    Tom Holland seems to understand how an Islam that doesn't contradict liberal values/human rights could arise. The argument about the age of Aisha and the contextualization or rejection of that hadith,the rise of jihadism due to modern technology,how to view the hadith literature in its entirety and how it affects intepretation the Quran(especially on abrogation) , are things that I've pointed out before in some way or another
  • How do we prevent radicalisation? - Tom Holland
     Reply #12 - May 29, 2015, 10:04 PM

    Tom Holland on Islamic State and Palmyra

    https://mobile.twitter.com/holland_tom/status/604405110698065921
  • How do we prevent radicalisation? - Tom Holland
     Reply #13 - May 29, 2015, 10:19 PM

    Tom Holland presents 'De-Radicalising Muhammad' - The Christopher Hitchens lecture at the Hay Festival
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=I5slk97ss2Q


    I listened to the whole thing. It was excellent and I highly recommend you watch it. An hour very well spent.
  • How do we prevent radicalisation? - Tom Holland
     Reply #14 - May 29, 2015, 10:51 PM

    I listened to the whole thing. It was excellent and I highly recommend you watch it. An hour very well spent.


    Yup, posted it yesterday in the IS thread. Highly pertinent! His Herodotus lecture at Hay was brilliant too, had some interesting stuff about the origins of various Greek civilisation era myths from all around the World.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AHTokb35nGM
  • How do we prevent radicalisation? - Tom Holland
     Reply #15 - May 30, 2015, 01:07 AM

    If you want to prevent Muslims from being "radicalised", then stop all these wars, economic sanctions and support for Arab monarchs. I understand some Muslims have done terrible things, but so have certain western countries.

    Just a quick skim of recent history shows that some western countries are to blame for what is happening in Muslim countries (e.g. distributing religious materials from saudi arabia, training egyptian security forces to torture, imposing the shah of iran, mishandling the entire palestinian/israel conflict and so on). Now it is getting worse.

    I remember following 2001, so many Muslims in my community became more religious and hawkish.  They became more anti evolution, anti movies, anti gay and whatever. The more you try to tackle this issue, the worse it gets and its people like me who end up dealing with all this negativity.

    It is just pointless engaging in these long intellectual discussions about Islam. The issue is that people turn to religion when they face problems such as poverty, unemployment, injustice and so on. It brings forth a form of security and comfort. Deal with these fundamental social issues and then concentrate on intellectual religious discussion.

    If you think a Muslim family, who is poor and struggle to make a living, care about what some academic says about Islam, then you really don't understand what is going on. People turn to these ideologies when life is difficult.

    I have noticed when Musims become financially successful, they do become less "religious". Okay they will hold onto certain traditional views but it is nowhere near as potent as someone who is religious.

  • How do we prevent radicalisation? - Tom Holland
     Reply #16 - May 30, 2015, 01:16 AM

    It is not just a lack of education or poverty that is an issue. A number of IS and various other groups membership contain people with an education from a non-Muslim nation that are middle-class. They have no reason outside of religion to join such a group. This becomes an issue of ideology, martyrdom, fighting for the faith and a connection with the co-religious from across the world. This is a core issue with taking a literal view of scripture as it allows one to invoke the authority of god. Literalism is a major issue that is at the heart of all religions.
  • How do we prevent radicalisation? - Tom Holland
     Reply #17 - May 30, 2015, 01:19 AM

    ^ Again those from middle class backgrounds probably identify with geo-political issues that affects Muslims which is what motivates them to fight in the first place.

    I'm sorry to be blunt here but Muslims in general don't care what these guys are saying. If this issue is left alone, it will cool down and relax.

    Every time you have someone like Palmer Geller or Richard Dawkins open their big mouths, Muslims get more and more hyped up. Again the same applies when Muslims hear about violence against other Muslims and nothing is done about it.

    I'm sorry but this approach of debating and arguing is not going to work. Let this issue die for at least 10 years and then see what happens.
  • How do we prevent radicalisation? - Tom Holland
     Reply #18 - May 30, 2015, 03:28 AM

    I listened to the whole thing. It was excellent and I highly recommend you watch it. An hour very well spent.

    Yes, excellent.

    Interesting (and a tad depressing) that the woman who chaired the talk was of rather more orthodox bent - the appeal of ISIS is born of legitimate grievance and punk rebellion.
  • How do we prevent radicalisation? - Tom Holland
     Reply #19 - May 30, 2015, 04:25 AM

    ^ ......... someone like Palmer Geller or Richard Dawkins open their big mouths, ,,,,,,,,,,,,

     you know how to club people together in to a group  

    yes.... Richard Dawkins and his  big mouth....     Dawkins  is responsible for all the radical Islam cross the globe..  Some one should teach him lesson for his big mouth right  someone1991 ?



    well......

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • How do we prevent radicalisation? - Tom Holland
     Reply #20 - May 30, 2015, 07:59 AM

    Did someone (no pun intended) attack Richard?
  • How do we prevent radicalisation? - Tom Holland
     Reply #21 - May 30, 2015, 08:43 AM

    From his website:

    Quote


    by Richard Dawkins 28 May, 2015

    Ishould be well on myway to Los Angeles by now. I’m actually still in São Paulo. Tripped on my way down the walkway to my plane, fell on my head, broke myglasses and noticed blood all over the floor. My glasses must have cut me.

    Unfortunately (as I thought at the time), the passenger ahead of me was adoctor. He took one look, said I needed stitches, and from then on my fate was sealed. Nothing would persuade the officialsto let me on the plane. “A doctor” had pronounced. Paramedics were summoned. They were very kind, kept saying they’d take care of me. I kept sayingI don’t want to be taken care of, Iwant to get on the plane. To no avail. They bandaged my head like Basil Fawlty in the “Don’t mention the war” episode, put me in a wheel chair (although I was perfectlycapable of walking), and took me off to some kind of office, where I did a bit of waiting around.

    Meanwhile, my plane took off.

    Bright spot: They managed to get my suitcase off the plane, and they brought it to me.

    Less bright spot: They refused to let me take it with me in the ambulance.

    Bright spot: I finally persuaded them to let me take it.

    Blurred spot: My glasses broken, I couldn’t see.

    Very bright spot: I remembered that I had, at the last moment before leaving home, shoved in my case an obsolete (onlyjust) pair of glasses. So I can now see.

    In the hospital I wasimpressed by how little waiting around there was. British experience had prepared me for long hours in Accident and Emergency, and it was already nearly midnight. But no, they saw to me almost immediately. None of the nurses, or the paramedics still with me, spoke a word of English and I regret that I don’t speak a word of Portuguese, so I felt rather adrift in an alien world. Then the doctor came, and he spoke good English. He gave me five stitches in two cuts: two stitches above the right eyebrow, three in the forehead. The anaesthetic injectionshurt, but they did their job because the stitches didn’t hurt at all. I shall have scars.

    So it looks as though I maligned the kind doctor on the walkway ahead of me. Looksas though I really did need stitches, and the paramedics were right to bar my efforts to push past them onto the plane. Sorry doctor. Sorry paramedics. You were right.

    American Airlines gave me vouchers for an airport hotel, which is where I now am. And where I shall be all tomorrow, kicking my heelswaiting to catch tomorrow’s equivalent of tonight’splane, the one I should be on, now presumably somewhere over the Amazon jungle.

    Fortunately, the man I wassupposed to have lunch with in LosAngeles tomorrow had to cancel to go abroad, so I won’t be missing lunch with him. Yes I will. I will be missing lunch with him but I would have done anyway. But it’s still kind of fortunate in a silly, illogical way. Very illogical, but you know whatI mean.

    Obviously time to (try to) sleep.

  • How do we prevent radicalisation? - Tom Holland
     Reply #22 - May 30, 2015, 08:53 AM

    Oh poor chap.
  • How do we prevent radicalisation? - Tom Holland
     Reply #23 - May 30, 2015, 10:00 AM

    Quote from: someone
    It is just pointless engaging in these long intellectual discussions about Islam. The issue is that people turn to religion when they face problems such as poverty, unemployment, injustice and so on. It brings forth a form of security and comfort. Deal with these fundamental social issues and then concentrate on intellectual religious discussion.

    I don't think it's a case of having to choose between dealing with one or the other. Poverty, injustice, authoritarian regimes, the role of the West, religion, ideology - they're all part of the mix and the problems are complex. Focusing on one aspect of this doesn't mean having to disregard the rest.
  • How do we prevent radicalisation? - Tom Holland
     Reply #24 - May 30, 2015, 01:28 PM

    ^ But the problem is that when you have intellectual debates about Islam, it just makes most Muslims more defensive. They are already defensive because many Muslims don't have a comfortable lifestyle.  So when there are debates about Islam, it does not make them lower their guard and be open to other points views. It just makes them more hostile.

    Since I would say 2001 there have been hundreds of documentaries, interviews, debates and articles about highlighting the criticism of Islam. It's 2015 now and there has been no progression. In fact we have ISIS and have Muslims from middle class backgrounds trying to join them. S

    All I'm saying is that let's have a break from debating Islam. Let's everything cool down and just try to solve common social and economic related issues. Get everyone on the same platform. Once the majority have rights and security, then they will feel more comfortable to listening.

    In terms of Richard Dawkins, I was not attacking him, nor was I putting him under the same umbrella as Palmer Geller. If you read my post carefully as it is, I'm saying when high profiled individuals like him try to criticise Islam, it does not make Muslims adopt critically thinking skills. It makes them more defensive.



  • How do we prevent radicalisation? - Tom Holland
     Reply #25 - May 30, 2015, 01:53 PM

    ^ I mostly agree with you. I don't like most of the Dawkins/Harris/whoever kinds of debates. They don't often change minds, although they sometimes do. But for the most part, we in the audience are certain of our side, and if our man loses the debate, it's just because he wasn't good enough, and not because we were wrong.

    However, arguing against Islam in a more conversational setting can, I think, be much more effective, and while most Muslims will still carry on with their lives, some really find what speaks to them or what will plant a seed in their mind during a more relaxed and personal discussion (or, more likely, many discussions over time). I'd like to think CEMB is a place you couldn't browse through for long without having to ask yourself some tough questions as a believer. In fact, one poor gentleman from ummah reported that he debated with the users here until his iman was hanging by a thread...Grin

    Still, having this kind of dialogue out there against literal interpretations of Islam (not just from ex/non-Muslims but from Muslims, themselves), even if not everyone is ready to buy into it, is a step in the right direction, and people will slowly follow.
  • How do we prevent radicalisation? - Tom Holland
     Reply #26 - May 30, 2015, 01:56 PM

    ^ I mostly agree with you. I don't like most of the Dawkins/Harris/whoever kinds of debates. They don't often change minds, although they sometimes do...................

    Hmmm........

     They don't often change minds, although they sometimes do.... sounds like some of my posts .. stop copying people  finmad

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • How do we prevent radicalisation? - Tom Holland
     Reply #27 - May 30, 2015, 01:58 PM

    Grin I'm going to slowly morph into you, Yeezevee.
  • How do we prevent radicalisation? - Tom Holland
     Reply #28 - May 30, 2015, 09:08 PM

    Just a quick skim of recent history shows that some western countries are to blame for some of what is happening in Muslim countries (e.g. distributing religious materials from saudi arabia, training egyptian security forces to torture, imposing the shah of iran, mishandling the entire palestinian/israel conflict and so on). Now it is getting worse.

    Do you think it would be appropriate to introduce a "some of" in your own paragraph ahead?

    All I'm saying is that let's have a break from debating Islam. Let's everything cool down and just try to solve common social and economic related issues. Get everyone on the same platform. Once the majority have rights and security, then they will feel more comfortable to listening.


    So you think that by placing a moratorium on debating Islam, somehow the majority of folks in Islamic countries will get rights and security in about what... 10-20 years? I've never heard of such an way to acquire rights... that's very new to me  Very interesting.

    Just for curiosity are you a Muslim, Non Muslim, Ex-Muslim, because I missed your intro?
  • How do we prevent radicalisation? - Tom Holland
     Reply #29 - May 30, 2015, 10:54 PM

    Quote
    So you think that by placing a moratorium on debating Islam, somehow the majority of folks in Islamic countries will get rights and security in about what... 10-20 years? I've never heard of such an way to acquire rights... that's very new to me  Very interesting.


    I'm sorry but you have to learn to read my posts as it is without twisting it to suit your own agenda. It is one thing to disagree but another to misrepresent my thoughts.

    It is quite simple. The more you debate and challenge Islam, the more defensive Muslims gets. For centuries Islam has been debated and there are still millions of Muslims following the faith. Now due to a increase in technological and scientific advancements, it is should easier to debate religion, however I do not see flocks of Muslims leaving the religion.

    Now I did not say preventing Islamic debates will help Muslims to get basic rights and security. What I am saying is that once we help Muslims to get their basic rights and security, then it would be for the best to hold intellectual discussions about all religions. Why do you think most Muslims follow Islam? Because it gives them a source of comfort and security in a world where it is lacking. Once most Muslims in the world have a good lifestyle, I would not be surprised to see them adopt critical thinking skills and are more open to question certain old beliefs.

    An ordinary Muslim in India is not going to care about some expert debating about Islam. These people are focusing on having the money to survive the next day. Islam or any other ideology can give these people some sort of comfort because they think prayer is going to help them.

    As for Muslims who are wealthier, the main reason they turn to Islam is because of geo-political conflicts. If you really view the conflicts between Muslim countries and western countries as good vs evil and fail to acknowledge the shades of grey that accommodate these conflicts, then I'm afraid I cannot help you because I don't have time to summarise the history of the last 100 years.

    All I can say is this. You can continue debating this religion over and over again in its current fashion. I bet all my savings that nothing is going to change if you continue to adopt the current approach. You are just wasting your own time and energy. What happens when the current approach is not working? You switch it up and experiment with other approaches which is what I was doing.


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