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 Topic: The Nativist Prophets of Early Islamic Iran - Patricia Crone

 (Read 9686 times)
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  • The Nativist Prophets of Early Islamic Iran - Patricia Crone
     Reply #30 - September 24, 2014, 05:54 PM

    Thanks! Yeah the Quran is so vague in that story and it's right next to another Christian Legend "The Seven Sleepers of the Cave." Plus it implies that the story was known at the time because it was used to test him if he really knew the story.

    I don't see why Byzantine Christians would pick up a story told in a distant, small community coming from a sect that they would have deemed heretical. On the other hand, the Christian Legend did spread quickly resulting in the Poem of Alexander which was influenced by it about six years later. So it's not entirely impossible that Muhammad could have heard of it and had his "revelation" in the last few years of his career. Or like you said they got his death wrong or it was added later.

     Either way, even if you granted that it was the Quran that influenced the Legend and not the other way around, it just shows how during Muhammad's time that story was interpreted as Alexander going to the edges of the flat Earth and building a massive iron gate that doesn't exist.

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • The Nativist Prophets of Early Islamic Iran - Patricia Crone
     Reply #31 - September 24, 2014, 06:33 PM

    I don't think there's any argument that the Syriac Legend was somehow written based on the Qur'an.  That would make no sense at all for numerous reasons, not least of which is that the Syriac version actually makes sense and is detailed, why the Qur'anic version by itself is vague, almost incomprehensible, and assumes that its audience already knows the story.  Also, the "Alexander Legend" is just the latest in a series of Greek/Syriac legends about Alexander going back for centuries before Mohammed.  It was a very well-known story.  The Syriac version composed in 629 just includes some very specific details that are cryptically alluded to by the Qur'an.

    The "Seven Sleepers" is another great example of an existing Syriac narrative that the Qur'an comments on.  Most critical to understand is that much of the language and the references in both these stories were *not understood* by the later Muslim exegetes.  Why not?  Because they did not have any good understanding of the Syriac textual tradition and language, and also because they were operating under the dogma that Mohammed received his revelations as an illiterate Arab in pagan Mecca, then Medina.

    Both of these stories assume the opposite, they assume the Qur'an's audience knows these stories and ask the speaker to comment on the.  The Alexander section begins:  "They will ask thee of Dhu'l-Qarneyn. Say: "I shall recite unto you a remembrance of him."  The Seven Sleepers section begins:  "Or, do you think that the Fellows of the Cave and the Inscription were of Our wonderful signs?"  The Qur'an is perfectly explicit that the audience already knew these stories, and were asking about them, in response the speaker 'reminds' them of the general gist of these stories, and argues for their significance in the context of judgment day theology.

    Ignoring that historical context makes these references incomprehensible.  If you are familiar with these Syriac Christian narratives, on the other hand, it easily explains what the Qur'an is actually talking about, and clarifies many puzzling terms and references.  The Qur'an is *derivative commentary* on these texts, and is perfectly explicit about that.
  • The Nativist Prophets of Early Islamic Iran - Patricia Crone
     Reply #32 - September 24, 2014, 07:13 PM

    this thread is a reminder of why I love this forum. Great contributions from everyone.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • The Nativist Prophets of Early Islamic Iran - Patricia Crone
     Reply #33 - September 24, 2014, 08:09 PM

    So it would seem this story would show that some verses to the Quran were added at a later time than the prophets alleged "death" in 632. That or the syriac legend and the Quran derived themselves from an earlier source. Apparently though, the Pseudo-Callisthines that the Syriac legend was based on did not include the stories of Alexander traveling to the ends of the earth or the giant wall holding back the nations(or the two horns). This seemed to be added to the story in the Syriac version.

    Oh and btw I think Islamic-Awareness.com was trying to argue that the Quran influenced the legend.

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • The Nativist Prophets of Early Islamic Iran - Patricia Crone
     Reply #34 - September 24, 2014, 08:25 PM

    Damn. Google books preview has pages missing from the Van Bladel essay. Any way you could post it Zaotar?

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • The Nativist Prophets of Early Islamic Iran - Patricia Crone
     Reply #35 - September 24, 2014, 08:46 PM

    How does Shoemaker fit?  It is my impression we are quite close to a reasonably correct view of the history of this time - but it is not the authorised version!

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • The Nativist Prophets of Early Islamic Iran - Patricia Crone
     Reply #36 - September 24, 2014, 09:16 PM

    Damn. Google books preview has pages missing from the Van Bladel essay. Any way you could post it Zaotar?


    I found a pdf download of it on the net, but I can't post it.  You can rent it on Amazon for a pittance, and the whole book is ridiculously good, so consider it.

    Btw as to Islamic Awareness, they pretty much HAVE to argue that the Syriac version is based on the Qur'an because the parallels are so remarkable that only a fool could believe they are not connected directly.  Thus they have to invoke a ludicrous hypothesis of Syriac Christians aping an Arabic oral recitation in the Hijaz (!!!) to explain the fact that a text first written in Syriac in 629 AD is discussed at length, albeit quite vaguely, in the Qur'an.

    Btw, as to how this point fits with Shoemaker, it fits in two respects -- first that the Qur'an reflects a Syriac Christian type background, second that Muslim tradition was likely wrong on Mohammed's date of death (and it is notoriously terrible at dates in general); Mohammed probably lived longer than Muslims claim he did (i.e. 632 death date), and probably was directly involved in a campaign against Palestine (as Shoemaker argues) in the 632-634 timeframe.

    That the Muslim chronology is still taken seriously is incredible when you look at the facts ... why do Muslims claim that Mohammed died in 632?  Because it was ten years after 622, the hijra.  When did Mohammed start preaching in Mecca?  Ten years earlier, 612, when he received his revelation.  How old was Mohammed then?  40.

    40-10-10.  This is numerology made up by believers who didn't know the dates, not history.  Ironically for early Muslims it was such quasi-magical numerology that helped bolster his status as a divine prophet, whereas nowadays scholars rightly recognize this is just fake artificial chronology designed to emulate the fake artificial chronology of the Bible -- Shoemaker goes to town on this point.

    http://books.google.com/books?id=qcfHxDSbdT0C&pg=PA104&lpg=PA104&dq=mohammed+sixty+years+40+10&source=bl&ots=RuQCJ-vR_1&sig=q6Ic3XF9FxMFniS0bZEuG9tS9D8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=FjYjVOPFEqTTiwLblIDgCQ&ved=0CEEQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=mohammed%20sixty%20years%2040%2010&f=false
  • The Nativist Prophets of Early Islamic Iran - Patricia Crone
     Reply #37 - September 24, 2014, 09:42 PM

    OMG Zoater, if you ever need another wife or another husband, or even just a plaything, even if it's just for one night, I can do either. I am very very flexible... seriously though, thanks for your contributions on here.

    Apologies to Billy and everyone else for not being able to contain myself, and continuously spoiling this thread. I promise I will stay away from now on.

    Hi
  • The Nativist Prophets of Early Islamic Iran - Patricia Crone
     Reply #38 - September 24, 2014, 10:05 PM

    Thanks Zaotar! Once again I defer to your greater wisdom.

    Islamic-Awareness doesn't seem to grasp that their hypothesis doesn't help the Quran that much since it would show that contemporaries of Muhammad thought that the verses in the Quran about the sun setting in a murky pool actually meant just that. All the apologetics about how the Quran said it was just the time of the sunset and sunrise would fail.

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • The Nativist Prophets of Early Islamic Iran - Patricia Crone
     Reply #39 - September 25, 2014, 01:19 AM

    I understand that learning another language gives you another way to look at the world

    Speaking French makes me more pretentious.
  • The Nativist Prophets of Early Islamic Iran - Patricia Crone
     Reply #40 - September 25, 2014, 02:47 AM

    I can just imagine Morticia saying that.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • The Nativist Prophets of Early Islamic Iran - Patricia Crone
     Reply #41 - September 25, 2014, 06:28 AM

    Good stuff in this thread, thanks for link sources.
  • The Nativist Prophets of Early Islamic Iran - Patricia Crone
     Reply #42 - October 19, 2014, 06:16 PM

    Publications list for Patricia Crone with links to some of the articles:
    http://www.hs.ias.edu/crone/publications


    Links also out there on the internet but not on the list:

    The ancient Near East and Islam: the case of lot-casting

    Babak's revolt

    Roman, Provincial and Islamic Law (chapter 1)
  • The Nativist Prophets of Early Islamic Iran - Patricia Crone
     Reply #43 - May 06, 2016, 11:03 PM

    The Nativist Prophets of Early Islamic Iran - pdf of the book

    https://ketab3.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/thenativistprophetsofearlyislamiciran.pdf
  • The Nativist Prophets of Early Islamic Iran - Patricia Crone
     Reply #44 - May 07, 2016, 01:12 AM

    The Nativist Prophets of Early Islamic Iran - pdf of the book

    https://ketab3.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/thenativistprophetsofearlyislamiciran.pdf


    that is wonderful I love free books., that too from dr. Crone., Her contributions in  understanding/explaining early Islam is  unparalleled for her times .,CEMB should have folder on her works., May be I will put the freeB in to one of her folders we have in the forum..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • The Nativist Prophets of Early Islamic Iran - Patricia Crone
     Reply #45 - May 07, 2016, 10:04 AM

    Interview with Hanna Siurua on editing the collected articles of Patricia Crone

    http://en.alukah.net/World_Muslims/0/7268/?utm_campaign=7045480_16+May+MIA+1+News&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Brill&dm_i=25XA%2C470BS%2CKBBEQB%2CF9MBC%2C1
  • The Nativist Prophets of Early Islamic Iran - Patricia Crone
     Reply #46 - September 13, 2016, 07:59 AM

    Christopher de Bellaigue - Persian Heretics and Heresies

    http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-arts-and-culture/books/206591/persian-heretics-and-heresies
    Quote
    One of Patricia Crone’s achievements in her magnificent book on Iran in the aftermath of the Islamic conquest is to shed new light on sex on the Iranian plateau. Over some 50 densely argued pages toward the end of The Nativist Prophets of Early Islamic Iran, using sources, besides Herodotus, that range from hostile Muslim missionaries to Buddhist pilgrims, she establishes that polyandry, the lending of wombs, and the renting of inseminators were not uncommon and that incestuous marriage was encouraged under Zoroastrian law. Notwithstanding the physical effects of inbreeding, the consequences were not all bad; property was protected over generations and infertile couples raised children. But the Persians’ habitual detractors (the Greeks and, later on, the Arabs) ignored such practicalities in favor of shock and titillation, repeating when it suited them the Persian axiom that a woman is like a sprig of basil whose fragrance does not diminish if it is passed around. There were other analogies—to fruits, utensils, wells, roads, even ships.

    The story of morally dissolute Persians is as old as Persia itself. Thus, in the fifth century B.C., we find Xanthus of Lydia (who had lived under Persian occupation) reporting that “when a man wants to take another man’s wife as his own, he does so without force or secrecy but with mutual consent and approval.” The medieval heresiographer al-Baghdadi described an Iranian religious group, the Khurramis (from khurram din, or “joyous religion”), as permitting any pleasure, no matter how abominable, provided it did not harm others. Both these statements were misleading, if not untrue. Law and custom regulated sexual intercourse; life was no bacchanal. More recently, in the 1970s, the pious Iraqis of Basra regarded Abadan, the Iranian refinery town just across the border, as crawling with sex. This, too, was an exaggeration.

    “Our own sense,” Crone writes, “of what is plausible and implausible is severely limited by the fact that the modern world is dominated by an extremely narrow range of family arrangements.” Prurience is decidedly no help in understanding late antiquity, when Eurasia was shedding (as we now realize) some of the characteristics that made it ancient, becoming recognizably the forebear of the world we inhabit now. In this light, examining the convoluted sexual arrangements of our ancestors is like “opening a book on a huge variety of dead and dying languages, all victims of the inexorable homogenization of the world that has been in steady progress since the dawn of civilization.” Knowing Patricia Crone—as readers will feel they do after working their way through the limpid, unsparingly informative, precisely 500 pages of her text—I am confident there is no pejorative vibrato in the words “inexorable homogenization”; it is in Crone’s character as a historian to pursue “just the facts.”
    ....

  • Re: The Nativist Prophets of Early Islamic Iran - Patricia Crone
     Reply #47 - October 01, 2016, 08:52 AM

    Learned dudes:

    Is there anything I can read that kind of breaks down all the sections of the Quran, and informs the reader of each respective section's probable roots (if those can be alluded to), their potential author(s), their relative age, and whether there are have been any later insertions in each section (and the possible origin of these).

    I've been working my way through all of Zoater's posts (backwards, for some reason), and this has really helped me kind of get the hazy picture. But now I am after a more definitive guide that I can hopefully read (forwards) and learn more from.


    This an interesting piece on possible authors of the Quran:

    http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/AbulKasem41205.htm

    Now my reading is of a high enough level to say whether the piece is wholely accurate. Maybe Zaotor or someone better read than myself could have a look at it.
  • The Nativist Prophets of Early Islamic Iran - Patricia Crone
     Reply #48 - October 04, 2016, 01:52 PM

    i stopped reading after he spoke about the "Sabeans", we really know nothing about them, even the early Quran's commentators knew nothing, and just made up some stories.

    we don't know really who has written the quran ,maybe muhammed did it, there is nothing against that, after all,it is just a book.

  • The Nativist Prophets of Early Islamic Iran - Patricia Crone
     Reply #49 - October 04, 2016, 05:10 PM

    i stopped reading after he spoke about the "Sabeans", we really know nothing about them, even the early Quran commentators  WRITERS knew nothing, and just made up some stories.

    I fully agree with hatoush if  I replace the word "commentators"  with the word WRITERS

    Quote
    we don't know really who has written  the quran , maybe muhammed did it, there is nothing against that, after all  it is just a book.


    errr   I need to delete many words to agree with hatoush ., so let me rewrite that  whole statement

    Quote
    "we don't know really who has written the quran ,  maybe so-called Muhammad  could be one of the many  authors, one of the many scribes or one of the many revelers.   there is nothing against that, after all, it is just a book.  And  and  after all the Muhammad means just a "Leader".  There is little doubt that in early Islam there were many leaders"  


    that  sounds better.,   and I am sure we could make that even better...  these tit bits are worth watching,,

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c98vaoqz-j0

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
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