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 Topic: Translation needed

 (Read 2227 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Translation needed
     OP - September 13, 2014, 09:28 PM

    Okay I am talking with a Muslim about the Sea barrier verse. He makes a sorts of claims with words having a meaning I can not find in any lexicon. When asked for a source all he provides is the following.

    مرَج السَّوائِلَ : خلطها { مَرَجَ الْبَحْرَيْنِ يَلْتَقِيَانِ }

    البَرْزَخ ما بين الموت والبعْث ، فمن مات فقد دَخَل البرزخ وفي التنزيل العزيز : المؤمنون آية 100 وَمِنْ وَرَائِهِمْ بَرْزَخٌ إِلَى يَوْمِ يُبْعَثُونَ ) )

    بَغَى : سعَى بالفسادِ خارجًا على القانون ، وهم البُغَاة

    *معجم المعاني الجامع
  • Translation needed
     Reply #1 - September 13, 2014, 09:32 PM

    This looks like the verse(s) itself. However I am not sure.
  • Translation needed
     Reply #2 - September 14, 2014, 03:54 AM

    Okay I did some hand translation. This is about a barrier between the spiritual and physical worlds right? I fail to see how this addresses anything about the barrier between seas.
  • Translation needed
     Reply #3 - September 14, 2014, 08:08 PM

    This looks like it was copied and pasted from an Arabic Tafseer (or perhaps a dictionary as this is suggested at the end) on the two verses from Sura al-Rahman:

    19
    مَرَجَ الْبَحْرَيْنِ يَلْتَقِيَانِ
    He has merged the two seas, so they meet. (19)

    20
    بَيْنَهُمَا بَرْزَخٌ لَا يَبْغِيَانِ
    Between them is a barrier that cannot be transgressed. (20)

    The first bit that you quote, is mixed up. (probably when copied and pasted).

    It should be:

    { مَرَجَ الْبَحْرَيْنِ يَلْتَقِيَانِ

    Which is verse 19 above.

    The next bit, is the tafseer:

    مرَج السَّوائِلَ : خلطها

    It says: "maraj the liquids: (means) mixed them."

    The next bit is explaining the word Barzakh (barrier) which is used in verse 20 above.

    It says:

    البَرْزَخ ما بين الموت والبعْث ، فمن مات فقد دَخَل البرزخ وفي التنزيل العزيز : المؤمنون آية 100 وَمِنْ وَرَائِهِمْ بَرْزَخٌ إِلَى يَوْمِ يُبْعَثُونَ ) )

    Barzakh is that which is between death and resurrection. So whoever dies has entered Barzakh. And in the mighty revelation (it says) - (Sura) al-Mu'minoon verse 100: "And behind them is a barzakh (barrier) until the day of resurrection.

    The last bit is explaining the word بَغَى which is in verse 20 and I translated as "transgress". It says:

    بَغَى : سعَى بالفسادِ خارجًا على القانون ، وهم البُغَاة

    Bagha: To go to beyond the law with corruption/injustice, and they (who do this) are (called) al-Bughaa (plural of Baaghi)

    Then it says:

    *معجم المعاني الجامع

    Which is the name of a dictionary, called: "the comprehensive collection of meanings"
  • Translation needed
     Reply #4 - September 14, 2014, 08:38 PM

    Okay so doesn't this create an internal contradict? There is mixing when there should not be mixing due to a barrier which can not be transgressed

    He is switching between Arabic font, English transliteration and English a lot. Everything I ask for a source he only uses Arabic font. He's playing some childish games refusing to even work with me or provide a source I can read. The tasfirs, lexicons and dictionary translations contradict everything he has told me.
  • Translation needed
     Reply #5 - September 14, 2014, 08:48 PM

    Yes, it would seem that way.
  • Translation needed
     Reply #6 - September 14, 2014, 08:54 PM

    Maraj the word he uses is similar to Maraja. However in the Quran lexicon Maraja's definition is "he released". Is he hooked on a root word or a similarity?
  • Translation needed
     Reply #7 - September 14, 2014, 09:53 PM

    Maraj is the same as maraja - I'm just leaving the last vowel out.

    Maraja is one of those obscure Qur'anic words where one has to rely on lexicons written after the Qur'an and according to them it means "To mix/become mixed with" - amongst other meanings.
  • Translation needed
     Reply #8 - September 15, 2014, 10:01 PM

    Okay so I was looking at lexicons for the verses. Now I assume since merge/mix contradicts verse 20 this definition is dropped completely others realized there is an internal contradiction. Mixes but does not mix. Merges but does not merge. So he is stretching the word out of context in an ad hoc manner using eisegesis. Eisegesis is reading a meaning into the verse rather then exegesis. Considering every single source I can find agrees with what I have put forward he had put himself in an untenable position. Either he accepts the verses were wrong or requires eisegesis to avoid it. Again creating an internal contradict using a method which is considered dishonest in scholarship rendering the point moot.

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