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Theme Changer

 Poll

  • Question: Math thread, Y or N?
  • Yes
  • No
  • Yes

 Topic: Could we get a Math section?

 (Read 35683 times)
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  • Could we get a Math section?
     Reply #150 - February 22, 2015, 07:49 PM

    Is it faster to count to the infinite going one by one or two by two?

    I think that questions of this sort mistreat infinity, by thinking of it as a number rather than a concept.  It's like comparing ∞  and ∞/2. At every step of the "counting", you still have an ∞ distance to go, so neither is faster.

    Nonetheless, here is a good answer from MSE:




    Yes indeed. Could formulate it by thinking about the Hilbert hotel too. If we could count the number of doors that slammed if everyone went one door to the next, as opposed to going every other door, how many doors would slam in case one vs case two? It's clear in reality the number of door slams will be the same given infinite time.

    One only acquires wisdom when one sets the heart and mind open to new ideas.

    Chat: http://client01.chat.mibbit.com/#ex-muslims
  • Could we get a Math section?
     Reply #151 - February 22, 2015, 07:51 PM

    Oh! Now that is interesting! Smiley

    One only acquires wisdom when one sets the heart and mind open to new ideas.

    Chat: http://client01.chat.mibbit.com/#ex-muslims
  • Could we get a Math section?
     Reply #152 - February 22, 2015, 07:53 PM

    Yeah, Hilbert's thought experiment is cool.

    Especially the part where he introduces an infinite amount of buses, which each contain an infinite amount of passengers. We can still fit them inside the hotel.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Could we get a Math section?
     Reply #153 - February 22, 2015, 08:33 PM

    Loool I didn't know about that part! Cheesy He really did throw the kitchen sink at it. I remember a variation with taxis though Smiley

    One only acquires wisdom when one sets the heart and mind open to new ideas.

    Chat: http://client01.chat.mibbit.com/#ex-muslims
  • Could we get a Math section?
     Reply #154 - February 23, 2015, 07:31 AM

    For those who are interested.

    Hilbert's Hotel

    (1) Suppose that we have a hotel with an infinite number of rooms...

    And suppose that one day, an infinite number of people come in to stay at the hotel, such that every room is occupied.

    Q: What happens if somebody else comes along and wants to take a room, can the hotel accommodate him?

    Answer: Yes. All we do is take the person in room 1 and move them to room 2. The person in room 2 moves to room 3, and so on for every room number. This will open up room 1 for our new guest to stay in.

    More formally:

    For every room n, the person occupying n moves to n+1.

    Even though the hotel was full, there will always be a room n+1 for the person in room n to move into.


    The first result of Hilbert's thought experiment highlights that :  ∞ + 1 =  ∞

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    (2) Now suppose that an infinite amount of people turn up at the hotel, looking for a room.


    Q: Can we accommodate them?


    Answer:  Yes, we have another very simple solution. What we do is take the person in room 1 and move them to room 2.  Then we take the person in room 2 and move them to room 4 and so on.

    Generalising:

    For every room n , the person occupying n moves to 2n.

    What this means is that all the even numbered rooms will be occupied, but all the odd numbered rooms will be made available to accommodate the new guests, as there are an infinite amount of odd numbered rooms.

    The second result of Hilbert's thought experiment is that  ∞ +  ∞ = ∞

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    (3) This final example is a little more tricky. We still have our hotel, and it is still full.

    Suppose that the hotel is visited by an infinite amount of buses, and each bus contains an infinite amount of passengers.

    Q: Can the hotel accommodate them?


    Answer:  Once again, yes it can.


    Although there are various ways to approach (3), here is one of the easier methods, which is known as the interleaving method:

    We assign a number to every bus, and assign a number to every seat on every bus. We imagine that the hotel is a bus and that its rooms are seats.

    You take the bus number, and take the seat number. If either number is shorter, add 0's to it until they're the same length.

    E.g. bus 12 , seat 4892 = 0012 and 4892.

    Next, we interleave the two numbers  : bus,seat, bus, seat etc...

    Such that 0012 and 4892 becomes : 04081922

    We then remove the first 0 from the interleaved number, and arrive at the unique number 4081922.

    We send the passenger on the bus to that room number. As long as we use this method, we can assign each passenger a unique number.

    This is because no person will have the same bus number and the same seat number. Some will have the same bus number, some will have the same seat number. However, no two people will have the same bus & seat number.

    The final result of Hilbert's thought experiment is that ∞ × ∞ = ∞

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Could we get a Math section?
     Reply #155 - February 24, 2015, 10:34 AM

    That is actually very clever, with the assigning of a number. Perhaps each person in a seat simply having a unique ID assigned as they get off the bus (or given beforehand, e.g. a passport number) is sufficient rather than complicating it with seat number + bus number unification plus respective operations. It leads to the same result nevertheless!

    EDIT: just realised the numbering is done in this way to include the parameter of the bus and the individual to yield the ∞ × ∞ = ∞ result!

    One only acquires wisdom when one sets the heart and mind open to new ideas.

    Chat: http://client01.chat.mibbit.com/#ex-muslims
  • Could we get a Math section?
     Reply #156 - February 24, 2015, 10:36 AM

    Yeah, it will lead to the same result as long as no two numbers are in conflict, and they correspond to rooms in the hotel.

    Interleaving is just one of the many ways (albeit a pretty straightforward and easier method) in which a unique value can be generated.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Could we get a Math section?
     Reply #157 - February 24, 2015, 11:04 AM

    Here's another method:

    Those already in the hotel will be moved to the nth triangular number:



    Those in a coach will be moved to:



    (Whoever formatted the above forgot to close the parentheses)


     In this way all the rooms will be filled by one, and only one, guest.

    This paring function can be demonstrated visually by structuring the hotel as a one-room-deep, infinitely tall pyramid. The pyramid's topmost row is a single room: room 1; its second row is rooms 2 and 3; and so on. The column formed by the set of rightmost rooms will correspond to the triangular numbers. Once they are filled (by the hotel's redistributed occupants), the remaining empty rooms form the shape of a pyramid exactly identical to the original shape. Thus, the process can be repeated for each infinite set. Doing this one at a time for each coach would require an infinite number of steps, but by using the prior formulas, a guest can determine what his room "will be" once his coach has been reached in the process, and can simply go there immediately.



    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Could we get a Math section?
     Reply #158 - February 24, 2015, 11:19 AM

    We could place those in the room in the Fibonnaci sequence, and place those on the coach in the Fibonnaci sequence + 1, just for fun Tongue Yeah you're right infinitely many ways to parametrise it

    One only acquires wisdom when one sets the heart and mind open to new ideas.

    Chat: http://client01.chat.mibbit.com/#ex-muslims
  • Could we get a Math section?
     Reply #159 - February 24, 2015, 11:31 AM

    The wiki page claims that we could put the passengers of the coaches into the (c+n-1) triangular number, plus (c+n), which should yield:



    I'm not sure about it though, look at the triangular number:



    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Could we get a Math section?
     Reply #160 - February 24, 2015, 11:37 AM

    Oh wait, it's an absolute non issue lol.

    I misread the RHS, didn't notice that it was a binomial coefficient (somehow read it as a fraction, wishful thinking eh?)

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Could we get a Math section?
     Reply #161 - February 24, 2015, 11:47 AM

    No probs Smiley

    One only acquires wisdom when one sets the heart and mind open to new ideas.

    Chat: http://client01.chat.mibbit.com/#ex-muslims
  • Could we get a Math section?
     Reply #162 - February 24, 2015, 11:47 AM

    I do that a lot. On first glance, I tend to read what I want to solve rather than what I need to solve.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Could we get a Math section?
     Reply #163 - February 24, 2015, 01:24 PM

    Lol it's cool, we are all human at the end of the day...

    One only acquires wisdom when one sets the heart and mind open to new ideas.

    Chat: http://client01.chat.mibbit.com/#ex-muslims
  • Could we get a Math section?
     Reply #164 - July 10, 2015, 07:15 AM

    Just revisited Cantor's diagonal argument which demonstrates that lNl<lRl.

    Another related counterintuitive result is that אo+אo+אo+אo+....=אo

    Set theory is cool.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Could we get a Math section?
     Reply #165 - July 10, 2015, 11:10 AM

    Just revisited Cantor's diagonal argument which demonstrates that lNl<lRl.

    Another related counterintuitive result is that אo+אo+אo+אo+....=אo

    Set theory is cool.


    Also,  אo^n =  אo for n > 0.

    Set theory is a monstrous field, and it appears literally everywhere.

    One only acquires wisdom when one sets the heart and mind open to new ideas.

    Chat: http://client01.chat.mibbit.com/#ex-muslims
  • Could we get a Math section?
     Reply #166 - July 10, 2015, 11:15 AM

    Do you know what the stance on the continuum hypothesis that lRl=ℵ1 is?

    IIRC, you can neither prove or disprove it?

    I've seen a few proofs here and there but I don't know enough about elementary set theory to follow them properly.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Could we get a Math section?
     Reply #167 - July 10, 2015, 11:21 AM

    Do you know what the stance on the continuum hypothesis that lRl=ℵ1 is?

    IIRC, you can neither prove or disprove it?

    I've seen a few proofs here and there but I don't know enough about elementary set theory to follow them properly.


    You're right. The argument is outlined here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardinality_of_the_continuum but the appeal to the continuum hypothesis is the part where it is not yet proven or disproven.

    One only acquires wisdom when one sets the heart and mind open to new ideas.

    Chat: http://client01.chat.mibbit.com/#ex-muslims
  • Could we get a Math section?
     Reply #168 - July 10, 2015, 11:23 AM

    Ah, fair enough. Thanks.

    Did you know that during Cantor's era many of his contemporaries thought of him as a madman. Wittgenstein said that Cantor's work is "deductively invalid" or something along those lines. They outright rejected his set theory. He then fell into a depression and eventually died.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Could we get a Math section?
     Reply #169 - July 10, 2015, 11:27 AM

    Ah, fair enough. Thanks.

    Did you know that during Cantor's era many of his contemporaries thought of him as a madman. Wittgenstein said that Cantor's work is "deductively invalid" or something along those lines. They outright rejected his set theory. He then fell into a depression and eventually died.


    Yes, apparently he threw himself off a mountain when contemplating infinities. Something along those lines. Mathematicians tell each other folktales a lot too so I don't really know who to believe anymore! It's sad because Cantor's work was groundbreaking in every sense. It's standard though, people do tend to reject what is new and revolutionary very quickly. Nevertheless set theory has come a long way.

    One only acquires wisdom when one sets the heart and mind open to new ideas.

    Chat: http://client01.chat.mibbit.com/#ex-muslims
  • Could we get a Math section?
     Reply #170 - July 10, 2015, 11:29 AM

    Quote
    Nevertheless set theory has come a long way.


    Indeed. Banach-Tarski and all that stuff.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Could we get a Math section?
     Reply #171 - July 15, 2015, 07:51 PM

    Since there's a fair amount of stuff about logic in this thread already...

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Could we get a Math section?
     Reply #172 - July 15, 2015, 07:52 PM

    :( I got too hasty.
  • Could we get a Math section?
     Reply #173 - July 15, 2015, 07:52 PM

    One sec.
  • Could we get a Math section?
     Reply #174 - July 15, 2015, 07:53 PM

    Oh fuck this. When he's saying the other guy can't know anything is that saying that he knows it can't be the months with the unique dates and the other dude obviously would know he doesn't have one of the unique dates so it has to be the one odd number left out?

    Edit: so like July 16th?

  • Could we get a Math section?
     Reply #175 - July 15, 2015, 07:55 PM

    Quote
    Edit: so like July 16th?


    Correct. Took your time though.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Could we get a Math section?
     Reply #176 - July 15, 2015, 07:56 PM

    >: ( I hate it. Don't ever do that to me again.

    Also in my defense you sent that at the end of my semester. Grin Also for some reason the first time you sent it I thought they weren't looking at the list together.
  • Could we get a Math section?
     Reply #177 - July 15, 2015, 07:59 PM

    After I completed the puzzle I decided to write out a formal step by step thingy for reference purposes:

    1. From the first statement, it follows that Albert was told either July or August.

    2. The second statement suggests that we need to find a unique birthday, we can remove July and August 14 from our search.

    3. If her birthday was in August, the third statement would not be true. We can remove August from our search.

    C. The survivor is July 16.




    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Could we get a Math section?
     Reply #178 - July 15, 2015, 08:00 PM

    >: ( I hate it. Don't ever do that to me again.

    Also for some reason the first time you sent it I thought they weren't looking at the list together.


    No, you were right the first time. They aren't looking at the list together. One guy has the months and the other the days, the "complete list" exists for our eyes only.

    The trick is to take each of the statements in conjunction rather than considering them separately. Most people consider them separately which leads to the brainfuck.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Could we get a Math section?
     Reply #179 - July 15, 2015, 08:02 PM

    Quote
    No, you were right. They aren't looking at the list together. One guy has the months and the other has the date, the "complete list" exists for our eyes only.


    What. If there's no total list for them to look at, how does Bernard realize the date when he hears the other guy say he doesn't know and Bernard can't know?
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