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Theme Changer

 Topic: Introduction carpentaro

 (Read 3687 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Introduction carpentaro
     OP - September 07, 2014, 05:30 AM

    First off, I'm not nor have ever been Muslim or Islamic.

    I found this site as a result of wanting to better understand Muslims and Islam. I have studied [a bit] on some of the "hot button" ideological differences in religions. I was looking for first hand experience validation to some of the conclusions that I had arrived at about Islam.

    I do practice religion, I am a Christian. My intention is to act as a resource, as from what I have gleaned from some of the postings [and I've only read a few] is that "organized religion" has dealt a harsh blow to many, and is held with great and justifiable scepticism. I would like to help any that have questions. 

    Although my experience [with religion] is in no way as severe as most who are here, I am familiar with some of the fallout of; disillusionment, rejection [family, church/religion], isolation, cult-like status of religious authority refusing to be questioned...

    I believe that people are spiritual beings, and that a spiritual journey does not have to result in being pushed to what may seem an abyss. I believe that there is something after this life and there is hope for all to bridge the gap.

    Your humble Christian kafir, carpentaro

       
  • Introduction carpentaro
     Reply #1 - September 07, 2014, 07:42 AM

    Welcome!  parrot

    Do you mind sharing any more about your faith? Which, if any, denomination? How do you regard the Bible or any other Christian texts? Do you use them as literal guides, or is it your belief that much of it is metaphorical?

    Feel free not to answer if you're not comfortable, just curious. I spent my early years as a Methodist. That didn't require much commitment. We got baked goods and coffee just for showing up to church. Grin
  • Introduction carpentaro
     Reply #2 - September 07, 2014, 08:28 AM

    Ooh I think you're the third christian I've seen on the forums, hello and welcome.

    My question is: Do you believe in evolution? and please explain.

    أشهد أن لا إله
  • Introduction carpentaro
     Reply #3 - September 07, 2014, 08:37 AM

    I'd consider myself "born again", non denominational. We've been going to Baptist recently, but we've tried lots of others [church shopping when relocating]. We've attended 4 square, Free Methodist, Christian and Missionary Alliance [CMA]... Depends on the individual church.
    I believe the Bible to be literal, there is heaps of archaeological evidence to believe otherwise, weight of evidence proves most, the rest is taken on faith.
    I am encouraged by the individual courage and fortitude exhibited on this site. An individuals ability to reason and make decisions that have [I believe eternal] consequences.
    I know about being stuffed into religion, I was brought up Catholic [0-12], and I just never got what they were peddling. It was not until later [30 years old] that I got it. Protestant [generally] does not get on with Catholic, so I see or hear little from my immediate family.

    One point that has made a huge difference in my spiritual life, collective practice of "religion" [Muslims not that different than Catholics in this regard] is not what God desires from us, it is the individual free choice to recognize that there is a God of creation. Once you make that individual free will choice [away from the collective "religion"], God will make Himself known to you. That is His promise. Try it, you'll like it.

    Micro or macro?



  • Introduction carpentaro
     Reply #4 - September 07, 2014, 08:57 AM

    Oh, nice. It's cool that you're kind of making your own path.

    You wrote the opposite, but I don't think that's what you meant. Did you mean there is archaeological evidence to support Biblical claims? I'm going to have to say that, if so, with all due respect, you and I couldn't be further in disagreement. But I won't make you cover all of that in your introduction when you just get to the forum. You should explore around and see what you can contribute to on here.  yes

    Also,
    Quote
    Micro or macro?


    you don't really need to elaborate or answer any more about that. The second we hear that question, we get your feelings on the matter. Grin
  • Introduction carpentaro
     Reply #5 - September 07, 2014, 09:07 AM

    Welcome Carpentaro, and have a nice  parrot

    I think that you and I hold diametrically opposing views on religious belief, but that need not be a barrier to polite and respectful intercourse on the subject.

    The established Christian Church has always made asinine proclamations on scientific advances, and has always had to grudgingly accept that they were entirely wrong.  History is littered with accounts of the torture, imprisonment and executions of scientists who were ultimately to be proved right, and it was all done in the name of Christianity.

    I am, as you will already have guessed, an Agnostic.  Though I am by no means a disciple of his, I do respect the views of Thomas Henry Huxley.

    I look forward to reading more of your thoughts.  In the meantime, have another  parrot

    Kind Regards,
    Stephen.
  • Introduction carpentaro
     Reply #6 - September 07, 2014, 09:28 AM

    There is a progression, a refining of the faith. Granted Christianity has been a slow adopter of newer things.
    But when you take in to account the responsibility of billions of souls, I recon that I'd be erring on the side of caution.
    Christianity does progress, adapt though. Most of what you bring up is ancient history and may be embarrassing, but in the whole, has come a long way.
  • Introduction carpentaro
     Reply #7 - September 07, 2014, 09:33 AM

    Hello Again, Carpentaro.   Here is another  parrot to go with your burgeoning collection.

    Having now re-read your introduction, I note that you accept the bible as being literal.

    Do you know about the Council of Nicaea at all?

    This was the unseemly bun fight which determined what should or should not be included in the bible, and was actually a fight for political control of the church.

    Constantine did not invite bishops who were opposed to his mastery of the church, and those bishops who risked travelling to the council were ambushed and murdered en route.

    Those who did make it to Nicaea were physically bullied into accepting his terms of reference, and his primacy over the church.  The bible was cobbled together under these circumstances, which caused the rift between the Eastern Orthodox and Coptic Church on the one hand, and Roman Catholicism on the other.

    The bible, therefore, is not the word of god, but a representation of political ambition and greed, designed to support the aspirations of murderous criminals.

    Kind Regards,
    Stephen.
  • Introduction carpentaro
     Reply #8 - September 07, 2014, 09:42 AM

    Welcome to the forum carpentaro, have a rabbit!  bunny

    One point that has made a huge difference in my spiritual life, collective practice of "religion" [Muslims not that different than Catholics in this regard] is not what God desires from us, it is the individual free choice to recognize that there is a God of creation. Once you make that individual free will choice [away from the collective "religion"], God will make Himself known to you. That is His promise. Try it, you'll like it.


    I agree strongly with you that religion, should be a personal, individual matter. The state's should rather butt out of this, although we know there's a long history to the contrary.

    What do you think will happen to me if I don't use my free will to choose to recognize the god of creation?

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Introduction carpentaro
     Reply #9 - September 07, 2014, 06:20 PM

    First off, I'm not nor have ever been Muslim or Islamic.

    I found this site as a result of wanting to better understand Muslims and Islam.

    Welcome. parrot That's pretty much how I ended up here.


    Quote
    I was looking for first hand experience validation to some of the conclusions that I had arrived at about Islam.

    I see. At this point I have to mention that going looking for validation of your own preconceptions is not necessarily the best way to approach learning.


    Quote
    I do practice religion, I am a Christian.

     far away hug


    Quote
    My intention is to act as a resource, as from what I have gleaned from some of the postings [and I've only read a few] is that "organized religion" has dealt a harsh blow to many, and is held with great and justifiable scepticism. I would like to help any that have questions.

    Sounds awesome. We could do with some fresh meat. At least, those of us who are not vegetarians.


    Quote
    I believe that people are spiritual beings, and that a spiritual journey does not have to result in being pushed to what may seem an abyss. I believe that there is something after this life and there is hope for all to bridge the gap.

    Why do you believe this, apart from the obvious and usual reasons of fear and narcissism?

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Introduction carpentaro
     Reply #10 - September 08, 2014, 05:34 AM

    Whilst recognising that contributors wish to share their views and opinions, I think it highly unlikely that members of this forum will rally to your proselytizing call.
    Few people (if any) would go through the turmoil of leaving one religion, only to be persuaded to pick up another set of unsubstantiated beliefs.
    I stand to be corrected, but I believe that your ultimate goal is, in your mind, to save souls from the eternal flames of damnation.
    It appears that I am not entirely alone in this assumption, as Osmanthus has also touched on the subject.
    I look forward to seeing how your future posts develop.  Until then, have a lovely  parrot.
    Kind Regards,
    Stephen.
  • Introduction carpentaro
     Reply #11 - September 08, 2014, 05:56 AM

    Welcome to the forum!
  • Introduction carpentaro
     Reply #12 - September 08, 2014, 07:28 AM

    Welcome.

    One question, however: why 'carpentaro' and not, say, 'pescataro' (assuming the spelling of the former to be deliberate), if you intend to fish for souls here?
  • Introduction carpentaro
     Reply #13 - September 08, 2014, 07:54 AM

    Carpentaro= Spanish spelling of carpenter. Nothing too flash.
  • Introduction carpentaro
     Reply #14 - September 08, 2014, 07:57 AM

    Carpentaro= Spanish spelling of carpenter. Nothing too flash.


    OK then.
  • Introduction carpentaro
     Reply #15 - September 08, 2014, 08:14 AM

     Cheesy
  • Introduction carpentaro
     Reply #16 - September 09, 2014, 06:03 AM

    Carpentaro,

    You accuse me of dragging up ancient history, and by doing so imply that the modern church is much improved.

    Maybe you have heard of ODESSA, or perhaps not.  ODESSA was a Vatican based organisation which assisted NAZI war criminals to escape justice after the war in Europe was over.

    ODESSA was funded by the Vatican Bank, which laundered money stolen from European Jews during the Holocaust, and used that money to establish escape routes to Latin America.

    It was administered by very senior Bishops at the Vatican and in South America, and the then Pope was fully aware of what was going on.

    I have a comprehensive list of the Catholic Bishops who were involved, and will dig it out if you are sufficiently interested.

    Bringing us bang up to date, there are tens of thousands of cases of priests behaving in a predatory manner, and the Catholic Church pays out millions in compensation to try to keep a lid on it. 

    You obviously practice your religion with zeal, but it is religious zealots who do the most damage. 

    If you want further examples of rotten behaviour by Christians, I have loads.

    Kind Regards,
    Stephen.
  • Introduction carpentaro
     Reply #17 - September 11, 2014, 09:27 AM

    Welcome to the forum carpentaro. parrot

    I also come from a catholic family, however unlike you I came to the conclusion that christianity in it's entirety is false. I'm interested in your statement that christianity adapts and progresses. While I wouldn't say there has been no adapting with the times I would say this isn't down to the religion, but rather the religion having no choice. It's evolve or die and christianity often drags behind. If you're lucky enough to live in the western world, partially western Europe, you have the luxury of picking and choosing your religion. This is because society fought and struggled for centuries, and christianity was dragged kicking and screaming into the enlightenment. I'm actually of the opinion one of the reasons there is such a clusterfuck in the west in regards to islam is that islam has not gone through the same process as christianity, but like christianity islam will also adapt or die.

    In regards to your comment on the sins of the churches being ancient history, I have to disagree. The crimes and suffering heaped on the faithful is alive and well to this day.

    The following is a verse from a hymn written in 1892 for use in the church of England to call upon god to convert the jews to christianity.

    Though the Blood betrayed and spilt,
    On the race entailed a doom,
    Let its virtue cleanse the guilt,
    Melt the hardness, chase the gloom;
    Lift the veil from off their heart,
    Make them Israelites indeed,
    Meet once more for lot and part
    With Thy household's genuine seed

    Hitler has ripe pickings for his attempt to wipe out the jews in no small part because of christianity. For centuries christianity had accused the jews of deicide, literally the murder of god. Up until the 19th, possibly 20th century, jews would be accused of blasphemy of some sort or another, usually breaking into churches in the dark of night and desecrating sacred wine or crackers, and as a result entire villages would be wiped out.

    In the late 19th and early 20th centuries the church adhered to a distinction between "good anti-semitism" and "bad anti-semitism". The "bad" kind promoted hatred of jews because of their descent. This was considered un-christian because the christian message was intended for all of humanity regardless of ethnicity; anyone could become a christian. The "good" kind criticized alleged jewish conspiracies to control newspapers, banks, and other institutions, to care only about accumulation of wealth, etc. Many bishops wrote articles criticizing jews on such grounds, and, when accused of promoting hatred of Jews, would remind people that they condemned the "bad" kind of anti-semitism

    After the world was horrified by treatment of the jews in the second world war, it still wasn't until the second Vatican council in the 1960s that the church issued a declaration which repudiated the belief in the collective jewish guilt for the crucifixion of Jesus.

    Moving on from that into the later part of the 20th century to today, we find that christianity is desperate to interfere in other parts of peoples lives. AIDs is god's judgement on the sodomites. Women's health services are under attack. Our governments and our schools and our children's education is under threat. The psychological damage that is being done with christian dogma, the most evil being the concept of original sin being taught as truth. And this is just in the west. Who can forget how the Africans were told that AIDs is bad, but not as bad as condoms. Or the survivors of the Haiti tragedy being told it was their fault, that god had judged them for their sin. Even now, today. laws are being pushed for in some countries to persecute people who don't conform to the standards of particular christian fanatics convinced they have god on their side.

    I accept that most christians are decent people, and in no way am I saying that any of the above describes you, but saying all sins are in the past, simply ancient history, is not true and needs to be faced.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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