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 Topic: the lies about science told by iERA and Islamic evangelists

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  • the lies about science told by iERA and Islamic evangelists
     OP - May 21, 2014, 10:08 AM


    Science and Islamic Evangelism


    In their evangelical material iERA have made claims of scientific miracles being contained in the Quran.

    The dialogue between science and religion is a topic of immense interest to many philosophers, theologians and scientists. While academics debated over the boundaries of science  or the validity of religious experience, a much cruder relationship between the two fields began to trend in Muslim communities across the developing and developed countries in recent decades. Many Islamic proselytizers began to widely publicize the belief that the sacred Islamic text, the Qur'an, contains scientific information that had only been discovered recently.
     
    As a proselytizing tool, claims of scientific foreknowledge are found in the evangelical practices of many major religions.  However, this belief has gained much mainstream acceptance in the Muslim world, with adverse effects.

    The claim is that Islam’s supremacy and mission is validated by scientific proof, and that the veracity of the Qur'an as God's direct command has been "proven" due to its (alleged) scientific foreknowledge. This tool has been the default argument for Islam by many major apologists such like Harun Yahya, Zakir Naik, and most recently iERA.
     
    The fallacious  line of reasoning behind the belief of scientific foreknowledge in the Qur'an is particularly easy to  demonstrate.

    First and foremost, many of the claims are based on an ignorance of history. For example, some apologists claim that theQur'an foretold a round earth while being ignorant of the fact that the knowledge of a  spherical earth can be found even among the Ancient Greeks.

    Secondly, many claims are based on semantics whereby ancient words are given novel or modern connotations. For example, some apologists claim that the Qur'an foretold the existence of atoms while not acknowledging the fact that the particular word in question merely acquired the meaning of atom in modern times. In other cases, apologists rely on mistranslations to achieve their goals. For example, a  Qur'anic word used in association to the Earth is often translated by apologists as round or "egg-shaped" while academic lexicons of Arabic clearly demonstrate the word is actually used to denote flat surfaces.
     
    A few other claims, that are neither based on historical ignorance or  semantics, commit the fallacy of equivocation or the fallacy of undistributed middle. For example, some apologists claims that the Qur'an foretold the 'expansion of the universe' while failing to acknowledge that they have merely equivocated a modern scientific discovery on to a word the describes the 'vastness of heavens'.

    Similarly, some apologists claim that the Qur'an foretold the implantation of a blastocyst with the words "safe place" while failing to acknowledge the fallacy of the undistributed middle since the words "safe place” could easily refer to a mother's womb.

    There are yet other claims that are based on misunderstandings of scientific information where by apologists have claimed that the Qur'an "foretold" non-existent scientific phenomenon. For example, some apologists claim that the Qur'an foretold the existence of impenetrable barriers between seas when in fact no such barriers exist.

    Ironically, the apologists, in their zealous attempt to implant science in the Quran, unwittingly plant errors in the text instead.
     
    Skeptics who have examined much of the claims of scientific foreknowledge have not found a single genuine case in the Qur'an. Even a few Muslim scholars have come forward criticizing the methodology and misinformation touted by the advocates of such claims. Despite the intellectual bankruptcy of this phenomenon,  proselytizing organizations like iERA continue to push this trend through books, videos, lectures, websites, advertisements and  billboards.

    Members of iERA have been known to engage in disingenuous methods in order to exploit the religious sentiments of people and have used unethical behaviour in their evangelism. Hamza Tzortzis staged a debate in Pakistan with Dr. Pervez Hoodhboy, a well-respected physicist and an activist for science and education in Pakistan. Despite the fact that Dr. Hoodhboy was a Muslim and that he even affirmed the Islamic dogma of the divinity of the Qur'an, Hamza Tzortzis characterized him as an atheist during the debate and incoherently censured Dr. Hoodhboy of having failed to prove atheism. If such dishonesty was not sufficient, Hamza later stated that Dr. Hoodhboy hated the Muslim world; a remark that can have deadly consequences in a country like Pakistan.

    The assertion of scientific verification for the ideas of a group like iERA services hatred.

    By suggesting that their version of Islam is an example of scientific truth, they assert an authority that they suggest is bolstered by science. With that authority, their version of Islam is unquestionable. And thus the views they project through speakers and clerics towards gays, women, non Muslims, ex Muslims and liberal dissenting Muslims are depicted as part of a rational, scientific authority.

    The wider effect is to claim that science verifies the foundational prejudices of a Hate Group.

  • the lies about science told by iERA and Islamic evangelists
     Reply #1 - May 21, 2014, 12:33 PM

    Great article.  Afro

    Which forum member was this written by ? 


    I wanted to say HM but the writing sounds like billy.


    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • the lies about science told by iERA and Islamic evangelists
     Reply #2 - May 21, 2014, 01:06 PM

    not me, its by the very brilliant captndisguise



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • the lies about science told by iERA and Islamic evangelists
     Reply #3 - May 21, 2014, 01:18 PM

    ^

    oh that guy.  I've always loved his youtube videos and especially the new blog he has.

    Him and TheRationalizer have both done an excellent job of debunking the latest dawahganda produced by Hamza Tzortzis and iERA.

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • the lies about science told by iERA and Islamic evangelists
     Reply #4 - May 21, 2014, 01:29 PM

    One of the things that really irked me about that infamous webinar with Tzortzis and Dawahman was the way they talked about people who began to doubt Islam or who even left Islam after finding their claims debunked.

    Tzortzis in particular pretty much built his career off of touting this false science and trying to rationally and logically "prove" the truth of Islam because of these scientific or cosmological claims. Then, when they turn out to have been nonsense all along, Tzortzis and his lackey criticized the people who ever put stock in Tzortzis' claims by saying it's their fault and they have a weak iman and it's some mental sickness/disconnect/weak relationship with Allah/misunderstanding of Islam.

    Suddenly it's like they were saying, "Come on, do you need science to justify Islam or prove it? What's the matter with you doubting Muslims, thinking science ever had anything to do with Islam? Where did you get that idea? Shame on you!"  Roll Eyes
  • the lies about science told by iERA and Islamic evangelists
     Reply #5 - May 21, 2014, 04:32 PM

    Can someone provide a link to that webinar^?
  • the lies about science told by iERA and Islamic evangelists
     Reply #6 - May 21, 2014, 04:37 PM

    http://vimeo.com/89462663

    It should be here. Taken from this thread: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=26059.0
  • the lies about science told by iERA and Islamic evangelists
     Reply #7 - May 22, 2014, 01:33 AM

    When cornered, the apologists often use this slogan as the distraction of last resort 'Quran is not a book of science, it's a book of signs'. One can only mutter a WTF in response! Really, book of signs? signs of what? Define a sign? isn't all the creation a supposed sign of God's existence? then what's so special about Quran? To say that a fire and brimstone lecture is full of signs is almost akin to saying it is full of words..
  • the lies about science told by iERA and Islamic evangelists
     Reply #8 - May 22, 2014, 09:57 AM

    iERA should go into business, installing football pictches, they love moving the goal posts.
  • the lies about science told by iERA and Islamic evangelists
     Reply #9 - May 22, 2014, 10:33 AM

    When cornered, the apologists often use this slogan as the distraction of last resort 'Quran is not a book of science, it's a book of signs'. One can only mutter a WTF in response! Really, book of signs? signs of what? Define a sign? isn't all the creation a supposed sign of God's existence? then what's so special about Quran? To say that a fire and brimstone lecture is full of signs is almost akin to saying it is full of words..


    The Quran is a very bad book of signs. Especially when it tells us that God is horrible at science like me and is an immoral bigot.
  • the lies about science told by iERA and Islamic evangelists
     Reply #10 - May 26, 2014, 04:02 PM

    so Hammy is up to his old tricks again

    His been going around in his normal hyberbolic, cocksure, conceited manner saying he has come up with this brand new argument that no one has ever used before called the argument from consciousness(even thought he has no training or qualifications in Neuroscience), however this is Richard Swinburnes argument that Swinburne has been using for at least 13 years as shown by this refutation written in 2001.  http://infidels.org/library/modern/steven_conifer/ac.html

    Swinburne has also written about the argument in many of his books

    This is Tzortzis's article on it
    http://www.iera.org/research/blog/consciousness-and-the-new-scientist-magazine-reflections-on-false-materialist-assumptions-hamza-tzortzis
    this is the argument
    http://atheism.about.com/od/argumentsforgod/a/consciousness.htm

    At least Hamza Tzortzis hasn't been stupid enough to copy almost direct quotes, but he was going around on social networks bragging (along the lines of) " ohh ive come up with this brand new argument for the existence of god that no one has used before". Does Hammy really really think all kuffar who will hear his arguments, will never have heard christian apologists ? Why take credit for coming up with the argument and boasting you are the first to use it ? It appears he is a huckster similar to Mo Ansar who over sells and tries to seem more intelligent then he is and ends up with egg on his face regularly.
  • the lies about science told by iERA and Islamic evangelists
     Reply #11 - May 26, 2014, 04:11 PM

    Whether he believes he invented it or not, the fact of the matter is that it was debunked centuries before he was even born.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • the lies about science told by iERA and Islamic evangelists
     Reply #12 - May 26, 2014, 04:16 PM

    Actually, scrap that. The fact of the matter is that it isn't even an argument for the existence of a god.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • the lies about science told by iERA and Islamic evangelists
     Reply #13 - May 26, 2014, 04:37 PM

    Hamza's argument summarised:

    There is a hard problem of consciousness.
    ∴ God is the best explanation for this.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • the lies about science told by iERA and Islamic evangelists
     Reply #14 - May 26, 2014, 04:43 PM

    The only 'hard problem of consciousness' is getting the people who have a problem to put forward a coherent definition of consciousness.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • the lies about science told by iERA and Islamic evangelists
     Reply #15 - May 26, 2014, 04:51 PM

    Have you seen Hamza's video on the Higgs boson? It's fucking comedy gold.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6JtXfBHvms

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • the lies about science told by iERA and Islamic evangelists
     Reply #16 - May 26, 2014, 04:59 PM

    No. And I hopefully never will unless someone RickRolls me with it.

    All Muslim apologists are low hanging fruit. It's not even sport debunking Muslim apologists. Christianity is where the action is.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • the lies about science told by iERA and Islamic evangelists
     Reply #17 - May 26, 2014, 05:05 PM

    Ahmadi apologists are becoming increasingly irritating.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • the lies about science told by iERA and Islamic evangelists
     Reply #18 - May 26, 2014, 05:43 PM

    Ahmedi's are easily the best Muslim community. They're probably the most educated as well. Sure they still think the Prophet was some great guy, but at least they fully accept evolution.
  • the lies about science told by iERA and Islamic evangelists
     Reply #19 - May 26, 2014, 05:46 PM

    @Descent.

    Yes, many Ahmadis I have met are genuinely nice people. However, some are excessively slippery when it comes to Islamic debates & gainsay any possible interpretation which could portray Muhammad as being anything other than "perfect" & anything that disagrees with their "true" version of Islam.

    Being nice & accepting of Science still doesn't disqualify you from performing intellectual gymnastics in order to rationalise your presuppositions.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • the lies about science told by iERA and Islamic evangelists
     Reply #20 - May 26, 2014, 10:40 PM

    @Descent
    Are you sure? Ahmedis sound more like a cult to me, where the serfs  pay excessive donations to the leaders (who conveniently belong to the founder's bloodline) and evangelize using techniques lifted straight from the Mormons' playbook to expand the base of the pyramid.
  • the lies about science told by iERA and Islamic evangelists
     Reply #21 - May 26, 2014, 11:02 PM

    Hamza's argument summarised:

    There is a hard problem of consciousness.
    ∴ God is the best explanation for this.


    Hamza makes such a sneaky jump from the 'God' of these arguments (which are mostly borrowed from equally insecure Christians) to the God of Islam that his opponents often fail to call him on it. Why doesn't anyone stop him in his tracks and say 'wait a second - even if your argument was valid, how in the world can it be stretched to apply to the God as explained by the Quran'? Did the God of Quran make any such detailed arguments in his favor in the first place? if not, who are you to speak on his behalf? Had the authors of Quran even heard of the term logic let alone learned it? As far as I can see, God is simply incapable of carrying out a meaningful, threat-free dialogue in the Quran. You would be hard pressed to find any basic argumentation without it being peppered with the mention of Hell etc. Often, the punchline sounds like 'this is just a reminder', 'this is just a warning' etc., as if the debate is already settled.
  • the lies about science told by iERA and Islamic evangelists
     Reply #22 - May 27, 2014, 02:30 AM

    A little off topic but I just had to comment on this. Anyways I use a number of extension for Chrome for protection. These extension stop pages from loading due to poor reviews or if malware/spyware is detected. Some of these extension block the iera website due to either malware, spyware, phishing or some sort issue with their page. The review based extension blocks the site as belonging to a hate group. News of iera sure gets around fast  Cheesy
  • the lies about science told by iERA and Islamic evangelists
     Reply #23 - May 27, 2014, 02:38 AM

    Hamza makes such a sneaky jump from the 'God' of these arguments (which are mostly borrowed from equally insecure Christians) to the God of Islam that his opponents often fail to call him on it. Why doesn't anyone stop him in his tracks and say 'wait a second - even if your argument was valid, how in the world can it be stretched to apply to the God as explained by the Quran'? Did the God of Quran make any such detailed arguments in his favor in the first place? if not, who are you to speak on his behalf? Had the authors of Quran even heard of the term logic let alone learned it? As far as I can see, God is simply incapable of carrying out a meaningful, threat-free dialogue in the Quran. You would be hard pressed to find any basic argumentation without it being peppered with the mention of Hell etc. Often, the punchline sounds like 'this is just a reminder', 'this is just a warning' etc., as if the debate is already settled.


    Just watched this, extremely interesting.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0YtL5eiBYw

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • the lies about science told by iERA and Islamic evangelists
     Reply #24 - December 28, 2014, 07:43 AM

    BREAKING NEWS: I found Hamza's library:
  • the lies about science told by iERA and Islamic evangelists
     Reply #25 - December 28, 2014, 12:59 PM



    They actually quote a post from CEMB in that video.
  • the lies about science told by iERA and Islamic evangelists
     Reply #26 - December 28, 2014, 02:54 PM

    What post is that?

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • the lies about science told by iERA and Islamic evangelists
     Reply #27 - December 28, 2014, 03:08 PM

    What post is that?


    The video is too poor quality to read the username or what is said but I recognise the picture under the username, It's a man in a black suit with a black square behind him (maybe a door or something). I can't remember what user that is, They are keeping an eye on us.
  • the lies about science told by iERA and Islamic evangelists
     Reply #28 - December 28, 2014, 05:45 PM

    Good. Maybe they'll learn something.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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