Sudan apostasy case - Former Archbishop of Canterbury Lord Carey

12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
- Adey5
- Pub Regular
- No Nonsense Non-believer
- offline
Sudan apostasy case - Former Archbishop of Canterbury Lord Carey
OP - May 19, 2014, 05:21 PM

Regarding the recent death sentence passed for Meriam Yehya Ibrahim in Sudan for apostasy:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/apostasy-case-former-archbishop-of-canterbury-lord-carey-calls-on-british-muslim-leadersto-back-the-right-to-convert-from-islam-9393056.html

However he is also reported as saying "Isn’t there something fundamentally wrong with Islam at its core that it cannot allow people to change their religion?"

That is a real foot-in-mouth moment for the Archbishop......

Deuteronomy 17:2-5

2 If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the Lord thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the Lord thy God, in transgressing his covenant,

3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded;

4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel:

5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.

Ooops!

I am better than your god......and so are you.

"Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
- Adey5
- Pub Regular
- No Nonsense Non-believer
- offline
Sudan apostasy case - Former Archbishop of Canterbury Lord Carey
Reply #1 - May 19, 2014, 05:25 PM

Or this:

Deuteronomy 13:6-9 "If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying: Let us go and worship other gods (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other, or gods of other religions), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people."

I am better than your god......and so are you.

"Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
- Nikolaj
- Pub Regular
- Yes, I have a duck fetish!
- offline
Sudan apostasy case - Former Archbishop of Canterbury Lord Carey
Reply #2 - May 19, 2014, 05:36 PM

It is only in the periods where the Christian cycle go back to fundamentalism this is a major problem

I can see some people eventually following this in e.g. parts of Africa like Uganda with the hardcore evangelical Christianity being injected from the US.

Danish Never-Moose adopted by the kind people on the CEMB-forum
Ex-Muslim chat (Unaffliated with CEMB). Safari users: Use "#ex-muslims" as the channel name. CEMB chat thread.
- David
- Pub Regular
- offline
Sudan apostasy case - Former Archbishop of Canterbury Lord Carey
Reply #3 - May 19, 2014, 05:51 PM

Adey, Christianity has a second act that, if it doesn't entirely repudiate the first, flings the doors wide open for re-interpretation. No amount of fire and brimstone passages from the Old Testament can change that.
- Adey5
- Pub Regular
- No Nonsense Non-believer
- offline
Sudan apostasy case - Former Archbishop of Canterbury Lord Carey
Reply #4 - May 19, 2014, 06:02 PM

Hey, all I am saying is that it's in his holy book. I wasn't suggesting that Carey or Christians today in general would suggest such laws, or that Dominionism is any major threat. But it does kinda put him in a shaky position regarding biblical doctrine and the god he claims to believe exists.

he is basically saying:

1- Religions that rule death for apostasy must be fundamentally wrong

2 - His religion is guilty of the same thing (Deut 17:2-5)

3. Therefore there must be something fundamentally wrong with the bible/Christianity.

Yet he still believes.

I am better than your god......and so are you.

"Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
- Rubaya
- Pub Regular
- offline
Sudan apostasy case - Former Archbishop of Canterbury Lord Carey
Reply #5 - May 20, 2014, 12:58 AM

At least Christians WANT to reform which some Muslims DON'T. Yes and coming to your point all religions I know about has some sort of stupid stuff.
- Adey5
- Pub Regular
- No Nonsense Non-believer
- offline
Sudan apostasy case - Former Archbishop of Canterbury Lord Carey
Reply #6 - May 20, 2014, 03:44 PM

Yes, Christianity has largely been through that mill already, its teeth have been pulled, its claws filed down, and it is largely domesticated in most parts of the world, basically it has been dragged by its coat-tails by secular societies. Islam needs to go through that same process.

But my point was that Carey's personal view is refuted by Deuteronomy. Most Christians are rightfully embarrassed by some of the things said in the bible, and they try to skirt round it by the absurd apologetics and mental gymnastics as espoused by William Lane Craig and his ilk.

I would hope that most thinking Muslims, one day, will be embarrassed by some of the things their religion describes too.

Here's hoping.

I am better than your god......and so are you.

"Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
- Quod Sum Eris
- King of the
- Pub Regular
- offline
Sudan apostasy case - Former Archbishop of Canterbury Lord Carey
Reply #7 - May 20, 2014, 03:50 PM

I think most people consider Jesus to refute Deuteronomy. Classic example would regard the stoning of an adulterer. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone". You don't have to agree with that, but there it is. Christianity is the new testament, with some exceptions for using the OT to justify personal bigotry.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
- Adey5
- Pub Regular
- No Nonsense Non-believer
- offline
Sudan apostasy case - Former Archbishop of Canterbury Lord Carey
Reply #8 - May 20, 2014, 04:21 PM

So Jesus over-rules/contradicts god? Hmmm.

So was god wrong in the OT? But Jesus IS god? Fuck, this son/god thing ain't half confusing.

As Jeff Dee of the Atheist Experience says "The bible - the big book of multiple choice"

If someone can cherry-pick what they like to follow that fits with their own conscience from 'the good book' then they don't need it, as they already have their own superior morality to the god they claim to worship.

I bet you many have been killed over the centuries because of Deuteronomy.

Also Xtianity with the OT causes its own issues for Xtian theology, as with no OT, then no 10 commandments, no prophecies, no Adam & Eve or original sin, and thus no need for Jesus to be sent down to atone for our sins. What a Fuster-Cluck!

Also Jesus says in Matthew 5:17-18

"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfil. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished"

I am better than your god......and so are you.

"Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
- Lilyesque
- The Deconverter
- Pub Regular
- offline
Sudan apostasy case - Former Archbishop of Canterbury Lord Carey
Reply #9 - May 20, 2014, 04:34 PM

Quote from: Adey5 on May 20, 2014, 04:21 PM
So Jesus over-rules/contradicts god? Hmmm.

So was god wrong in the OT? But Jesus IS god? Fuck, this son/god thing ain't half confusing.

As Jeff Dee of the Atheist Experience says "The bible - the big book of multiple choice"

If someone can cherry-pick what they like to follow that fits with their own conscience from 'the good book' then they don't need it, as they already have their own superior morality to the god they claim to worship.

I bet you many have been killed over the centuries because of Deuteronomy.

Also Xtianity with the OT causes its own issues for Xtian theology, as with no OT, then no 10 commandments, no prophecies, no Adam & Eve or original sin, and thus no need for Jesus to be sent down to atone for our sins. What a Fuster-Cluck!

Also Jesus says in Matthew 5:17-18

"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfil. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished"

Basically its almost like there is no Christianity and therefore no Christians; just christians with a small C!
- Adey5
- Pub Regular
- No Nonsense Non-believer
- offline
Sudan apostasy case - Former Archbishop of Canterbury Lord Carey
Reply #10 - May 20, 2014, 04:38 PM

Or Christians who disagree with the bible.

I am better than your god......and so are you.

"Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
- Lilyesque
- The Deconverter
- Pub Regular
- offline
Sudan apostasy case - Former Archbishop of Canterbury Lord Carey
Reply #11 - May 20, 2014, 04:43 PM

Ergo not really Christian christians.
- yeezevee
- Pub Regular
- offline
Sudan apostasy case - Former Archbishop of Canterbury Lord Carey
Reply #12 - May 20, 2014, 04:45 PM

Quote from: Adey5 on May 20, 2014, 04:21 PM

.......I bet you many have been killed over the centuries because of Deuteronomy. .........

Sure there could be some ., but it would be nice to get some examples of such murders because of Deuteronomy. I wonder whether you could get some of those names on to the board Adey5??

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- Adey5
- Pub Regular
- No Nonsense Non-believer
- offline
Sudan apostasy case - Former Archbishop of Canterbury Lord Carey
Reply #13 - May 20, 2014, 05:17 PM

Well 'some' is too many, no?

You don't think that over a considerable period of the time and subsequent centuries during which this was considered law, as are still going on today (see above and below), scriptural laws were not acted upon, and anonymous victims weren't needlessly exterminated because of religiously based rulings like these?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uganda_Anti-Homosexuality_Act,_2014

Imagine what it was like back in those early days.

I am better than your god......and so are you.

"Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
- Adey5
- Pub Regular
- No Nonsense Non-believer
- offline
Sudan apostasy case - Former Archbishop of Canterbury Lord Carey
Reply #14 - May 20, 2014, 05:23 PM

Surely this is a problem theologically even more so for progressive and moderate Jews as they don't believe in the NT so they don't even get the "he who is without sin cast the first stone" 'abrogation' by Jesus to fall back on.

I am better than your god......and so are you.

"Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
- billy
- Pub Regular
- Tripitaka ~ Closet Juice
- offline
Sudan apostasy case - Former Archbishop of Canterbury Lord Carey
Reply #15 - May 20, 2014, 07:52 PM

Christians have by and large castrated the worst parts of the Bible, although in Uganda and elsewhere they still go Old Testament violent.

Islam on the whole still hasn't reached the stage Christianity has reached. He can reconcile his faith with the bullshit because the faith, especially the Anglican faith, has de-literalised the Bible. So its not an issue for him. They can discard because the non negotiable part is Jesus dying and resurrecting as the son of God. The non negotiable part for Muslims is that the Quran is the literal word of Allah and that certain hadiths and traditions are non negotiable that uphold the superstructure of Islam.

Islam hasn't reached the point of confronting that yet. And I'm personally grateful that at least one public figure has stood up and called Islam out for the apostasy laws, instead of beating around the bush and ignoring it for the sake of 'inter-faith' political correctness. Yeah, he's a religious man so he's a hypocrite himself, but at least he's right on this. If only a few other people had the cojones to say the same thing we'd be in a better place as Exmuslims, and Islamists wouldn't be able to sweep it under the carpet so much.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on April 30, 2011, 11:33 PM
God is Love.
Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
- David
- Pub Regular
- offline
Sudan apostasy case - Former Archbishop of Canterbury Lord Carey
Reply #16 - May 20, 2014, 08:38 PM

Adey, you're getting your knickers in a twist. As Quod says, 'I think most people consider Jesus to refute Deuteronomy.'

You can cherry-pick verses all you want, but there is an awful lot of anti-establishment love in the New Testament that made it possible for Christianity to reform.

I think all religions are man-made, but better surely to invent something with room for manoeuvre. When I plant a garden, plants get culled or moved around. It's still the same garden, but a better garden.

Quote from: Adey5 on May 20, 2014, 05:17 PM
magine what it was like back in those early days.

I think they were all up each others' arses. Whatever scripture said, homosexuality was a cultural norm in the ancient world. (I have as much proof for this assertion as you do for yours.)
- Adey5
- Pub Regular
- No Nonsense Non-believer
- offline
Sudan apostasy case - Former Archbishop of Canterbury Lord Carey
Reply #17 - May 21, 2014, 04:00 PM

Ok, ladies and gents, I wasn't criticising Carey's comments on killing of apostates (did you really think that I was?) but rather his broad hypocritical statement about only 'bad' religions punish apostates with death.

Yes the NT comes with some good stories and a softer touch with the introduction of Jesus, but it also brings with it into the mix the punishment of hell, so the NT kind of nullifies the good bits.

I bet Mr Carey is a great bloke, and I have respect for him in many ways, but my criticism was theological rather than against him or Anglicans or Anglicanism on the whole.

Regarding cherry picking, I would imagine that that are many decent Muslims around the world who are horrified by this Sudan case., and I am sure that the phrase 'There is no compulsion in religion' will be used by apologists in the same way that modern Christians use the NT to debunk the OT.

On the question of biblical punishments regarding throwing stones, what was that phrase about glass houses again?

I am better than your god......and so are you.

"Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
- Adey5
- Pub Regular
- No Nonsense Non-believer
- offline
Sudan apostasy case - Former Archbishop of Canterbury Lord Carey
Reply #18 - May 21, 2014, 04:10 PM

Quote from: David on May 20, 2014, 08:38 PM
As Quod says, 'I think most people consider Jesus to refute Deuteronomy.'

So then Jesus ("I haven't come to abolish the law one jot or tittle"), refutes himself ("be nice and love everyone"), refuting Deuteronomy ("Kill apostates")?

So we have a double refutation? no?

So Jesus, is it kill apostates or not?

I am better than your god......and so are you.

"Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
- Quod Sum Eris
- King of the
- Pub Regular
- offline
Sudan apostasy case - Former Archbishop of Canterbury Lord Carey
Reply #19 - May 21, 2014, 04:30 PM

If there was a historical Jesus, he was a radical rabbi. If he was around today he'd be a hippy religious reformer. He couldn't throw out the OT and start fresh, but he could bring reform. Again, let he who is without sin cast the first stone. None of us are without sin, so none are fit to judge. I would assume he was one of those people who have a shitty religion but are good people, so seek to make the religion good.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
- billy
- Pub Regular
- Tripitaka ~ Closet Juice
- offline
Sudan apostasy case - Former Archbishop of Canterbury Lord Carey
Reply #20 - May 21, 2014, 05:00 PM

Quote from: Adey5 on May 21, 2014, 04:00 PM

On the question of biblical punishments regarding throwing stones, what was that phrase about glass houses again?

Yeah but the point is its not hypocritical for an Anglican because they have already thrown all of that out and rejected Biblical literalism. That is what Islam needs to do (but which is extremely hard to do because the literal word of god thing is what is its non negotiable principle)

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on April 30, 2011, 11:33 PM
God is Love.
Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
- Quod Sum Eris
- King of the
- Pub Regular
- offline
Sudan apostasy case - Former Archbishop of Canterbury Lord Carey
Reply #21 - May 21, 2014, 05:10 PM

So the logical route would be it was a different time and it's not applicable anymore.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
- bogart
- Pub Regular
- offline
Sudan apostasy case - Former Archbishop of Canterbury Lord Carey
Reply #22 - May 21, 2014, 06:16 PM

Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on May 21, 2014, 04:30 PM
If there was a historical Jesus, he was a radical rabbi. If he was around today he'd be a hippy religious reformer. He couldn't throw out the OT and start fresh, but he could bring reform. Again, let he who is without sin cast the first stone. None of us are without sin, so none are fit to judge. I would assume he was one of those people who have a shitty religion but are good people, so seek to make the religion good.

Rabbi is a term used after the diaspora. It fills the vacant role once filled by the Priesthood. Jesus was in no way a Sage nor a legal Judge, as this what a Rab was during his life. He was against the post-captivity Priesthood which took power due to conflicts with Hellenistic cultures, Hellenized Jews and fpreign influences. One of his primary concerns was that Jews were not learning their scripture themselves rather they were accepting whatever the Priesthood told them. Also the Priesthood had become fractured into hostile camps which led to internal conflicts. These conflicts often involved foreign powers in an attempt to suppress radical elements or to enforce peace when the region was under foreign control. Considering foreign powers involvement was for their own benefit rather than the people in question. This just added to the image that the people were no longer following the path God provided. Jesus was anti-Gentile during his own life. The pro-Gentile movement started after his death. His goal was to reunify the people of God and to expel foreign influences. He was a revolutionary. If you look at the Bible in Hebrew, Greek or Aramaic Jesus is anything but some love thy neighbour hippy.
- Cheetah
- Global Moderator
- offline
Sudan apostasy case - Former Archbishop of Canterbury Lord Carey
Reply #23 - May 21, 2014, 06:47 PM

Quote from: Adey5 on May 21, 2014, 04:10 PM
So then Jesus ("I haven't come to abolish the law one jot or tittle"), refutes himself ("be nice and love everyone"), refuting Deuteronomy ("Kill apostates")?

So we have a double refutation? no?

So Jesus, is it kill apostates or not?

Anglicans are not Biblical literalists, so your point is moot. You'll find other Christian denominations who are vulnerable to your criticism if any of their pastors criticise the Islamists for apostasy laws, but the Anglicans are on safe enough ground.

"Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny." - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
- Quod Sum Eris
- King of the
- Pub Regular
- offline
Sudan apostasy case - Former Archbishop of Canterbury Lord Carey
Reply #24 - May 21, 2014, 07:37 PM

Quote from: bogart on May 21, 2014, 06:16 PM
Rabbi is a term used after the diaspora. It fills the vacant role once filled by the Priesthood. Jesus was in no way a Sage nor a legal Judge, as this what a Rab was during his life. He was against the post-captivity Priesthood which took power due to conflicts with Hellenistic cultures, Hellenized Jews and fpreign influences. One of his primary concerns was that Jews were not learning their scripture themselves rather they were accepting whatever the Priesthood told them. Also the Priesthood had become fractured into hostile camps which led to internal conflicts. These conflicts often involved foreign powers in an attempt to suppress radical elements or to enforce peace when the region was under foreign control. Considering foreign powers involvement was for their own benefit rather than the people in question. This just added to the image that the people were no longer following the path God provided. Jesus was anti-Gentile during his own life. The pro-Gentile movement started after his death. His goal was to reunify the people of God and to expel foreign influences. He was a revolutionary. If you look at the Bible in Hebrew, Greek or Aramaic Jesus is anything but some love thy neighbour hippy.

You've just described islam today.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
- Quod Sum Eris
- King of the
- Pub Regular
- offline
Sudan apostasy case - Former Archbishop of Canterbury Lord Carey
Reply #25 - May 21, 2014, 07:39 PM

Out of curiosity, how does Hebrew, Greek or Aramaic Jesus compare with the figure we're more familiar with? Is the figure you find in the widespread bible (i.e. King James) a different character?

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
- bogart
- Pub Regular
- offline
Sudan apostasy case - Former Archbishop of Canterbury Lord Carey
Reply #26 - May 22, 2014, 03:51 AM

Well for one he followed the current system at the time which was a patriarchal society. So obviously he followed the standards of the time. He still promoted a male dominated society with much of the female aspects following suit of just such a society. Much of the pro-female interpretation have changed over time from one of obedience to fathers and husbands to one of equality(ish). Jesus still promoted barbaric customs like killing children if they disobeyed their parents. He clearly promoted an us(believer) vs them mentality(unbeliever) when the cities rejected him early in his preacher years. He said those cities would face a worst fate than Sodom and Gomorrah, destruction by brimstone and God's divine wrath. Tyre and Sidon which were destroyed, it's people massacred by foreigners never to rise again as a warning from God. Keep in mind many of the foreign invasions of the Promised land were God's tools in punishment and warnings for the Israelites. So as with the invasion unbelievers or those whom do not repent will face God's wrath, justice and judgment.

Remember for a believer whatever judgement an unbeliever faces is their own doing, freewill and all. Many of the horrors you can read in the OT and NT are not evil but God's divine command. Look at WLC's defense of genocide for an idea how such issues are turned into a positive or warning for the believer.

Just as with Arabic, Greek and Aramaic are languages which have changed over time. Very few people are raised with one of these classical languages as their native tongue. They learn a standardized or modern version. We rely on others to translate these languages for us. Hence you can find authorities promoting different views for verse, books and words alone. You can see such differences in laws regarding blasphemy, apostasy, adultery, OT vs NT law, Quran vs Hadith, moderate vs fundamentalist, reform vs tradition.

Read Revelations for an idea of what you as an unbeliever will face, even if you are not alive during these events. Do not worry you will be brought back just in time! It's going to be World War G with Jesus leading the way of God's Host.
- avalanche
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Sudan apostasy case - Former Archbishop of Canterbury Lord Carey
Reply #27 - May 22, 2014, 06:55 AM

Bogart - I am interested in what you say above. Can you provide a source for what you consider to be a more accurate English translation of the gospels? One that reflects better the Aramaic or Greek?
- Quod Sum Eris
- King of the
- Pub Regular
- offline
Sudan apostasy case - Former Archbishop of Canterbury Lord Carey
Reply #28 - May 22, 2014, 08:09 AM

Seconded!

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
- lua
- Ex-Muslim
- Grossly Incandescent
- offline
Sudan apostasy case - Former Archbishop of Canterbury Lord Carey
Reply #29 - May 22, 2014, 09:32 AM

I know Revelations was supposed to be scary, but as a kid I loved it. It was cool Sunday sermon reading material. There were monsters and fire and drama!
12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »