So this took a surprising turn. My chat partner ended up giving me his e-mail. I've edited it so it doesn't show. but I will say it's the site e-mail.
Magicical creatures
Ibrahim has joined the chat.
Ibrahim (03:27:37) : welcome dear Solomon
Solomon (03:27:46) : Hey thanks
Solomon (03:28:19) : I was hoping I could get some information on the magical side of islam, specifically magical creatures
Ibrahim (03:28:40) : what is exactly a magical creature?
Solomon (03:28:55) : Angels, dust devils, jinns, and I've recently learned mermaids are also a factor in islam
Ibrahim (03:29:16) : mermaids? I've never heard of it
Ibrahim (03:29:32) : neither dust devils
Solomon (03:29:55) : Mermaids I've seen some fatwas on. I've had to look into it for a college report
Ibrahim (03:29:58) : Angels and Jinn is what I can talk about
Solomon (03:30:13) : Basically any info on magical creauters you have
Ibrahim (03:30:10) : what is your religion dear Solomon?
Solomon (03:30:33) : I don't have one. I'm mostly hoping I can get some information for my report
Ibrahim (03:30:33) : magical means fancy
Ibrahim (03:30:42) : we don't have such creatures
Ibrahim (03:30:52) : either they exist or they do not exist
Solomon (03:31:20) : I just need some info for my report
Ibrahim (03:31:26) : so strating on that fact let's talk about Angels
Solomon (03:31:51) : Sure, thanks
Ibrahim (03:31:55) : Angels are created by God, out of light. They are all obedient to God
Ibrahim (03:32:09) : They do not have a free will
Ibrahim (03:32:22) : and they do not have a gender
Ibrahim (03:33:18) : we humans are surrounded by angels, under normal conditions
Ibrahim (03:33:45) : there is angel on our right side, writing down our good deeds
Solomon (03:33:57) : Is there anything in the theology that specifies how they come to earth, and the process involved? I understand islamically they're made of light, so by what process do they communicate
with the various prophets?
Ibrahim (03:34:18) : there is another angel on the left side of us, writing the bad deeds we perform
Ibrahim (03:35:11) : the prophets have a vision and senses that we can not understand. they see deeper and further
Ibrahim (03:35:57) : they can see angels without having a communication
Solomon (03:36:18) : So there's nothing in the islamic traditions that go into it?
Ibrahim (03:36:35) : when a prophet communicates with an angel is because the angles is either instructing or revealing some message to the messenger
Ibrahim (03:36:54) : does that answer your question?
Solomon (03:37:20) : How does a being made of light communicate when it comes to earth?
Ibrahim (03:37:43) : prophets can see them in their original form
Ibrahim (03:37:59) : but they can also see them in a human shape too
Ibrahim (03:38:12) : we human can see an angel in a human shape
Ibrahim (03:38:19) : humans*
Solomon (03:38:32) : Oh that's interesting
Solomon (03:38:42) : Do they exist ina human shape only on earth or in heaven as well?
Ibrahim (03:38:59) : an angel can test you and you need deep knowledge to know it is an angel
Ibrahim (03:39:13) : you will probably not notice it
Solomon (03:39:26) : By the way I just looked it up, apparently the mermaid thing was a fatwa by someone named Saleh al-Fawzan. Looking into it more I can't see any islamic sorces on it, so I may have been misinformed
Ibrahim (03:39:50) : many of them are constantly travelling from heavens to earth and viceversa
Solomon (03:40:03) : When you say test, how does that work? Are they limited in knowledge?
Ibrahim (03:40:11) : yes they are
Ibrahim (03:40:53) : the Quran tells us that when first God created man, angels protested after they saw the human nature
Ibrahim (03:41:14) : but God asked them to say names of things on earth and they could not reply
Ibrahim (03:41:29) : then God ordered them to ask man about the names of things
Solomon (03:41:32) : How can they do that if they have no free will?
Ibrahim (03:41:47) : they can ask
Ibrahim (03:41:56) : however they do not disobey
Solomon (03:42:23) : Oh, so they have curiosity even though they have no free will?
Ibrahim (03:42:38) : of course
Ibrahim (03:42:49) : but they never disobey, no matter what
Solomon (03:44:00) : Okay. What is it about prophets that gives them the ability to interact with angels? Is a prophet chosen and given
the ability, or chosen to be a prophet because they have this ability?
Solomon (03:45:37) : Also would it be possible to ask about the Darda'il (Arabic: دردائيل "Journeyers of God")?
Ibrahim (03:46:14) : do you know Arabic?
Solomon (03:46:29) : A few words, that's all
Solomon (03:46:42) : Just what I've picked up with studies
Ibrahim (03:47:19) : it is God who decrees who can see or talk or listen to an angel
Ibrahim (03:47:39) : regarding دردائيل I have no knowledge on it
Solomon (03:48:05) : Yes I understand that, I'm just wondering if prophets are prophets because they were born with the ability or are chosen and graned it?
Solomon (03:48:45) : ie if allah decided I'd make a good prophet, would I wake up tomorrow and see angels or would I have to be born with it?
Ibrahim (03:48:51) : a prophet is chosen even before creation, since it is part of the destiny decreed by God
Solomon (03:49:09) : Ah, okay, thank you. I wasn't clear on it
Solomon (03:49:29) : Do you have a quranic reference for that, or a hadith?
Ibrahim (03:49:48) : one minute
Solomon (03:50:22) : Thanks
Ibrahim (03:51:11) : وَإِن مِّن شَيْءٍ إِلَّا عِندَنَا خَزَائِنُهُ وَمَا نُنَزِّلُهُ إِلَّا بِقَدَرٍ مَّعْلُومٍ ﴿٢١﴾
Solomon (03:51:26) : Cheers
Ibrahim (03:51:35) : welcome
Solomon (03:51:44) : You mentioned Raqib and Atid before, can you tell me anything about them?
Ibrahim (03:52:03) : no I didn't mention them by names
Ibrahim (03:52:27) : I suspect the asker knows better than the one who answers
Solomon (03:52:37) : The
two kiraman katibin (Arabic: كراماً كاتبين "honourable scribes"), are two angels called Raqib and Atid
Solomon (03:53:00) : Those are the ones that stay with you all your life and write down your deeps and words
Solomon (03:53:06) : *deeds
Solomon (03:53:41) : I'm unsure why there are two of them, my best guess is one for good and one for bad?
Ibrahim (03:53:42) : I think you need a book on the subject
Ibrahim (03:53:53) : not a chat service
Solomon (03:54:19) : Sorry mate, I have a few books, I just figured talking to someone who believes all this, and in fact lives it, would offer insite
Ibrahim (03:54:18) : I ll give you some reference
Ibrahim (03:54:21) : one minute please
Solomon (03:54:42) : Thank you
Ibrahim (03:54:39) : what books do you have?
Solomon (03:56:19) : The End of the World by Muhammad Al Areefi , Description of Paradise in the Glorious Qur'an by Abdul Halim Ibn and Islamic medicine by Darussalam are the one I can say off the top of my head
Solomon (03:56:36) : I'm also using quran.com and online resources for hadiths
Ibrahim (03:57:04) : what are you studying at college?
Solomon (03:57:49) : Comparative religion, psychology and English Lit. Hoping to study philosophy in two years as well
Ibrahim (03:58:14) : interesting
Ibrahim (03:58:50) : I will give you a couple of references
Ibrahim (03:59:02) : The World of the Noble Angels by Umar S. AlAshqar
Solomon (03:59:10) : This particular report is a comparison of the different interpretations of mythical creatures and the psychology behind them.
Solomon (03:59:13) : Oh thanks
Ibrahim (03:59:26) : and The world of Jinns and Demons by same author
Solomon (04:00:09) : I thought islam didn't hae demons, only good and bad jinns?
Ibrahim (04:00:17) : they are not mythical
Ibrahim (04:00:49) : they are observable, and when not, their effects are observable, therefore it is a scientific fact
Ibrahim (04:01:11) : a demon is misbehaving Jinn or human
Solomon (04:01:27) : Didn't know the human bit
Solomon (04:02:07) : When you say observable, you mean illness, disease, mental disorders, heart attacks, autism, cancer etc?
Ibrahim (04:03:01) : to be honest I find it strange that you have knowledge of not basic staff while ignoring the basic things!
Ibrahim (04:03:11) : stuff*
Solomon (04:03:23) : *shrug* Not my religion I guess
Ibrahim (04:03:46) : then why to study it?
Solomon (04:04:31) : I like stories. Religions are the best stories, plus I genuinely find them interesting, the hold they have on people, how they shape the world, the devotion they provoke. It's fascinating
Solomon (04:05:03) : It's also something very much reloved from myself, so I'm hoping it'll open my eyes to new things
Solomon (04:05:13) : *removed
Ibrahim (04:05:16) : We have the most authentic sciences for over 14 centuries, with an authenticated transmission of knowledge
Ibrahim (04:05:42) : if you consider such knowledge as story I consider you must revise such position
Solomon (04:05:54) : Yeah, that's cool. The contribution on Persia to islam and the world
was fun to learn about
Solomon (04:06:29) : I don't mean the world history and applications
Ibrahim (04:06:38) : Islam is a flexible system that can work in any sound culture
Solomon (04:06:49) : I dont' doubt it
Solomon (04:07:17) : It's pretty obvous that's true when you look a
t the world
Ibrahim (04:07:24) : the orientalist view that you have is very far from reality
Solomon (04:07:35) : How do you mean?
Ibrahim (04:07:33) : (a free tip for you) =)
Ibrahim (04:07:59) : please write down another reference for you:
Solomon (04:08:05) : I'm sorry if I'm come across the wrong way
Ibrahim (04:08:12) : "Orientalism" by Edward Said
Solomon (04:08:39) : Post-colonial Studies?
Ibrahim (04:08:57) : one second please
Solomon (04:09:21) : "without examining Orientalism as a discourse one cannot possibly understand the enonnously systematic discipline by which European culture was able to manage-and even produce-the Orient politically, sociologically, militarily, ideologically, scientifically, and imaginatively during the post-Enlightenment period"
Solomon (04:09:29) : Sure, thanks for the book tip
Solomon (04:09:47) : I didn't mean to say that I don't realise the impact islam has had on the worl
Ibrahim (04:09:45) : back
Solomon (04:09:53) : Hey
Solomon (04:10:00) : I really hope I haven't come across the wrong way
Ibrahim (04:09:58) : sure
Ibrahim (04:10:18) : I really appreciate you have come to know from Muslims
Solomon (04:10:33) : Seemed like the logical thing
Ibrahim (04:10:57) : however our knowledge is passed in an unconventional way (at least for you in your understanding)
Ibrahim (04:11:03) : from one person to another
Solomon (04:11:20) : Actually that was incredibly common throughout the world
Solomon (04:11:30) : The oral tradition is a tradition of all times
Solomon (04:11:49) : In the early islamic period it would mostly be strange to the Chinese and Romans
Ibrahim (04:11:59) : in case you really want to learn it from Muslims, you need to come with an empty bag where real knowledge can be deposited
Solomon (04:12:03) : The rest of the world basically did the same with a few xeptins
Solomon (04:12:15) : Well that's the idea
Ibrahim (04:12:20) : would you pour crystal water in a dirty glass to drink?
Solomon (04:12:41) : You're saying I'm a dirty glass?
Ibrahim (04:12:53) : basically we all are!
Solomon (04:13:08) : That's a rather bleak with of the world
Solomon (04:13:13) : *view
Ibrahim (04:13:12) : what I am trying to say is that we have polluted knowledge
Ibrahim (04:13:44) : and we need to clean the container before receiving sacre knowledge
Solomon (04:14:12) : Well, we're all effected by the bigotry of our environment to some degree. Hopefully it's something we can overcome
Ibrahim (04:14:20) : again, that is in case you want to learn it from the true sources. In any other case you better keep reading from orientalists
Solomon (04:15:08) : Mate, the fact I don't believe in the supernatural doesn't mean I'm bias in favour of only one view. I can listen to what others say
Ibrahim (04:15:06) : to overcome such pollution we need to work hard =)
Ibrahim (04:15:22) : it doesn't go off by itself
Ibrahim (04:15:35) : you do believe in supernatural
Solomon (04:15:47) : Can't say I do
Ibrahim (04:15:49) : it is just that you have a filter on it
Ibrahim (04:16:09) : one day you will realise it, I am sure of it =)
Ibrahim (04:16:28) : that day the filter will be lowered...
Solomon (04:16:51) : You think one day I won't go out at night without stakes, crosses, garlic and holy water because I'm worried Dracula will jump me?
Ibrahim (04:17:07) : =)
Ibrahim (04:17:09) : funny
Solomon (04:17:21) : Trying to make a point
Ibrahim (04:17:46) : didn't succeed
Solomon (04:18:17) : Point being that I don't see how one day I'll suddenly start believing in the supernatural
Ibrahim (04:18:22) : by the way Dracula was a real character
Ibrahim (04:18:28) : and Muslims killed him
Solomon (04:18:38) : I'm talking the vampire, not Vlad Tepes
Solomon (04:19:10) : You're talking about the Ottomon expansion. Fasinating times
Ibrahim (04:19:12) : vampires are stories
Solomon (04:19:18) : Spain fell rather quickly
Solomon (04:19:30) : I'm aware vampires don't exist
Ibrahim (04:19:49) : 7 centuries is not that quick
Solomon (04:20:14) : You do realise that it's far more likely the church killed Tepes than the Ottomans right? They would of seen him as a geritic and a blasphemer. Unholy
Solomon (04:20:19) : *heritic
Ibrahim (04:20:50) : facts are that Tepes was killed by Muslims
Ibrahim (04:21:04) : it is well documented no need for speculation
Solomon (04:21:32) : Oh well I'll take your word for it, honestly it's not something I've studied in depth
Ibrahim (04:21:58) : find sources then you can take my word =)
Solomon (04:22:24) : Sure, I'll look it up. So muslins killed the Impaler. Point being?
Ibrahim (04:22:23) : this is how gaining knowledge is healthy
Solomon (04:22:34) : Agreed
Solomon (04:22:46) : So what point are you making about Tepes' death?
Ibrahim (04:22:55) : point was vampires do not exist
Solomon (04:23:05) : I'm aware of this
Ibrahim (04:23:21) : ok brother.
Ibrahim (04:23:27) : may I ask how old you are?
Solomon (04:23:40) : 26
Solomon (04:23:55) : You?
Ibrahim (04:23:54) : great
Ibrahim (04:23:59) : 35
Solomon (04:24:36) : So I'm not sure I get your point. You want to say one day I'll believe in the supernatural by making a point vampires don't exist?
Ibrahim (04:24:48) : may I ask, what a 21 year old young man thinks about the hereafter?
Solomon (04:25:03) : Depends on the person I imagine
Ibrahim (04:25:16) : the supernatural is not always a fantasy
Ibrahim (04:25:35) : person?
Solomon (04:25:59) : ifferent people believe different things obviously. I can't speak for everyone who happens to be 21
Ibrahim (04:26:20) : well you are the only 21 around here
Ibrahim (04:26:34) : so you can claim that question to answer
Solomon (04:26:53) : I don't think the hereafter exists
Ibrahim (04:27:11) : are you aware we are energy?
Solomon (04:27:23) : Yes
Ibrahim (04:27:43) : and also, energy can not be destroyed?
Solomon (04:28:01) : Far as we currently know
Ibrahim (04:28:17) : when we die we know what happens to our body
Solomon (04:28:28) : Yup
Ibrahim (04:28:43) : however the energy of our intrinsic being, feelings, thoughts, etc, should go somewhere
Solomon (04:28:55) : Yup
Ibrahim (04:29:02) : hereafter?
Solomon (04:29:21) : So you consider the hereafter to be our remains?
Ibrahim (04:29:35) : sure
Solomon (04:29:51) : Are you at all familiar with neurology?
Ibrahim (04:29:56) : sure
Solomon (04:30:10) : Okay, well let me ask you this
Ibrahim (04:30:19) : go on
Solomon (04:30:38) : You accept that, as far as we know at this point in time, everything we are is housed in our brains?
Ibrahim (04:31:26) : how about those feeling, for example desperation, fear, that we feel in our chest rather than our brain
Ibrahim (04:31:26) : ?
Ibrahim (04:31:39) : feelings*
Solomon (04:32:04) : If you have some kind of brain damage you lose part of yourself. Forget how to speak, personality alters, can't recognise your children, etc. So many things that make us us cease to be when the brain is damaged. And yet I'm supposed to believe that when the entire thing dies, I somehow make it out intact? Everything I know points to the reverse
Ibrahim (04:33:17) : as far as you can not prove where such energy goes, then you can not deny it either
Solomon (04:33:27) : Mate, I have lost people. Grandparents. Uncle. My dad. Several friends. All dead. I understand loss. It's part of what fascinates me about religion
Solomon (04:34:33) : I don't not care that they are dead. I've cried my eyes out. I've been overcome. But that doesn't change what I currently understand about what makes us us ie the brain
Solomon (04:34:53) : It also doesn't change that no matter how mcu I would wish it otherwise I can't see anything to say that isn't the end
Solomon (04:35:08) : That's why it's called death
Ibrahim (04:35:14) : I can show you the opposite
Ibrahim (04:35:28) : do you believe in justice?
Solomon (04:35:49) : In the concept or the application?
Ibrahim (04:35:54) : concept
Solomon (04:36:29) : Sure
Ibrahim (04:37:19) : are you aware that many oppressors end their lives getting away with it? just as if justice didn't exist...
Solomon (04:37:38) : Yup
Ibrahim (04:37:58) : and we can see in nature that every cause comes along with a consequence right?
Solomon (04:38:30) : I'm not sure I buy into the literal butterfly effect, but go on
Ibrahim (04:39:15) : if you don't taste justice in this life, then you are due to taste it in the hereafter
Solomon (04:39:34) : Seems more desire that reality
Ibrahim (04:39:32) : such things makes it a necessary thing to be
Ibrahim (04:39:54) : how could the butterfly effect change it?
Solomon (04:40:10) : Ibrahim (04:37:58) : and we can see in nature that every cause comes along with a consequence right?
Ibrahim (04:40:49) : we cut a plant it dies
Solomon (04:41:17) : If you get the roots
Ibrahim (04:41:14) : a plant grows, we have more oxigen
Solomon (04:41:28) : Yup
Ibrahim (04:41:36) : we eat, we nurture our blood and organs
Ibrahim (04:41:39) : etc etc
Solomon (04:41:49) : Sure
Ibrahim (04:41:49) : so how can justice perish?
Solomon (04:42:34) : Justice isn't a thing. It's not a plant or an organ or something you can hold in your hand, it's a concept we created
Ibrahim (04:43:04) : do we create justice? or a system to apply it?
Solomon (04:43:15) : Obviously
Ibrahim (04:43:22) : ??
Solomon (04:43:32) : Yes, we do
Solomon (04:43:47) : Of course we do
Ibrahim (04:43:52) : example?
Solomon (04:44:11) : Legal system? Courts? Mortality? etc
Solomon (04:44:34) : Where do you think right and wrong comes from?
Ibrahim (04:44:32) : systems of application of justice
Solomon (04:44:41) : Right
Ibrahim (04:44:49) : not justice itself
Ibrahim (04:44:58) : we have observed justice
Ibrahim (04:45:20) : our systems fail most of the time when it comes to make justice
Solomon (04:46:07) : Justice isn't a static thing. Right and wrong changes. Most people today would agree homophobia was fine, god's will, and slavery was nothing to be concerned about. We've changed
Ibrahim (04:46:02) : sometime we say that is just, and other times we say that is not just, not fair
Solomon (04:46:25) : *Most people yesterday
Ibrahim (04:47:01) : perception changes, and not for everyone as you have said
Solomon (04:47:52) : So can we agree justice is a concept that evolved from ideals of mortality, right and wrong, and we created a system around it?
Ibrahim (04:48:05) : I don't see evolution of justice
Solomon (04:48:18) : Seriously?
Ibrahim (04:48:37) : on the contrary it seems justice has been deteriorating in the last century
Solomon (04:49:09) : By evolution of justice I meant changing nature
Ibrahim (04:49:06) : look at the US, the levels of incarceration are alarming!
Solomon (04:49:24) : Yeah but the yanks are morons when it comes to that
Ibrahim (04:49:51) : please let's show some respect or at least sympathy. They are human beings after all )=
Solomon (04:50:30) : You want me to show respect to the idiots who create and maintain and often unfair and racist justice system?
Ibrahim (04:51:25) : the whole world is in crisis, therefor we are as idiots as they
Solomon (04:51:45) : Right, because the Swedish model is exactly the same
Solomon (04:52:05) : One focuses on punishment, the other of reforming
Ibrahim (04:52:11) : you see mate? you get angry at injustice
Solomon (04:52:23) : Most normal people do
Ibrahim (04:52:36) : so it is an independant concept, free from man
Solomon (04:52:49) : That makes no sense.
Ibrahim (04:52:54) : nature always tends to balance things
Solomon (04:53:14) : I think we're coming at this from different angels and calling it the same thing
Solomon (04:53:24) : *angles
Ibrahim (04:53:25) : Justice, therefor, shall be done, at any point in time, no matter if you died before it
Solomon (04:53:42) : Yeah, definetly coming at it from different angles
Ibrahim (04:54:09) : I am trying to prove the need of a hereafter
Ibrahim (04:54:21) : am I doing right?
Solomon (04:55:22) : I understand your thinking I really do. But wanting something doesn't make it so. Wanting fair and balanced justice even for the dead doesn't mean the dead will be anything other than dead
Ibrahim (04:56:16) : but they can not simply walk away with it...there is something deep inside you agreeing with me
Solomon (04:56:32) : Yes, it's called mortality
Ibrahim (04:56:31) : isn't it?
Solomon (04:56:45) : Again, morality
Ibrahim (04:57:00) : and we have not created it
Ibrahim (04:57:13) : but that would lead us to same discussion
Solomon (04:58:00) : We have created morality. How different it is around the world and how it changes over time show that. The very concepts of heavens and hells and karma ad reincarnation show that
Ibrahim (04:58:59) : if we could handle it as a creation then we would be able to impose it on any being. Then at some point injustice would be vanished!
Solomon (04:59:26) : That's flawed logic
Ibrahim (04:59:33) : not at all
Ibrahim (04:59:39) : for exmaple capitalism
Ibrahim (04:59:56) : it has been imposed almost all over the world
Solomon (05:00:13) : If we were all angels we wouldn't need police. A exa
mple example but to the point
Solomon (05:00:34) : *simple example
Ibrahim (05:00:48) : as you can see, a creation can be imposed
Solomon (05:01:23) : I see that every day
Ibrahim (05:01:22) : however an intrinsic nature put within us by the creator can not be imposed on everyone
Solomon (05:02:02) : Isn't the very fact that it's been put within us imposing it on us?
Ibrahim (05:02:59) : you have the choice! you can respect others or you can walk on everyone's head just to fulfill your desires
Solomon (05:03:20) : That's a very sociopathic outlook
Ibrahim (05:03:29) : doesn't it happen?
Solomon (05:03:37) : No
Ibrahim (05:03:51) : you even gave it its scientific name
Ibrahim (05:04:06) : therefore it is a reality
Solomon (05:04:46) : But you're twisting it to make it seem like it's the norm. Ibrahim (05:02:59) : you have the choice! you can respect others or you can walk on everyone's head just to fulfill your desires <--------- Easy as flipping a switch?
Solomon (05:05:17) : You're completely disregarding morality in that statement unfairly
Ibrahim (05:05:14) : what can stop us from that?
Solomon (05:05:30) : Mortality, I don't know how many times I have to say it
Ibrahim (05:05:51) : but many people prefer their desires over morality
Ibrahim (05:05:57) : I can give you an example
Solomon (05:06:02) : False
Ibrahim (05:06:18) : making the poor poorer, is it moral?
Solomon (05:06:22) : Take a sociology class mate, you'll se
Ibrahim (05:06:34) : the father of sociology is a Muslim
Ibrahim (05:07:04) : (another book for you: the muqaddimah by Ibn Khaldun)
Solomon (05:07:18) : The hell does that have to do with anything? It could be a little green man from Mars, it doesn't impact on whether or not it's reliable
Solomon (05:07:29) : But I will actually save that though, ta
Ibrahim (05:07:38) : making the poor poorer, is it moral?
Solomon (05:07:57) : No. You can tell by charity and welfare
Ibrahim (05:08:10) : do you support capitalism?
Solomon (05:08:21) : Loaded question
Ibrahim (05:08:29) : do you?
Solomon (05:08:52) : Loaded question. Specify capitalism
Ibrahim (05:09:12) : do you support the basis of capitalism?
Solomon (05:09:32) : Still too loaded
Ibrahim (05:09:42) : :/
Solomon (05:09:52) : It is
Solomon (05:09:53) : For example
Ibrahim (05:10:01) : the basis of capitalism is interest, do you support it?
Solomon (05:11:36) : I support people being able to reap what they sow. I support that high interest rates have given poor people financial freedom they've never had before. I support how it sustains. I don't support how it's used. I don't support that in the US it's created a new feudal system. I do support how in Europe it creates an environment for free healthcare and education
Ibrahim (05:12:17) : I will put it naked for you now
Solomon (05:12:21) : Saying point blank do you support capitalism only
is a loaded question
Ibrahim (05:13:22) : a poor man has nothing, so he takes a loan, he needs 10000. after sometime, the poor man owe 10.000 plus interests. Is he poorer than before?
Solomon (05:14:05) : Again, it's a loaded question. What has he done with this money? What are the local laws? You're being to simplistic
Ibrahim (05:14:31) : the bank doesn't care what he is going to do with the money
Solomon (05:14:43) : So it's a bank then, not a loan shark?
Ibrahim (05:14:47) : they only care that he will be engaged in the system and his blood sucked out
Ibrahim (05:15:16) : I am talking of the basis of capitalism, of course the bank is the head of this system
Solomon (05:15:35) : Are you English?
Ibrahim (05:15:51) : so, afterall, the poor will be poorer and the rich will be richer
Ibrahim (05:15:59) : no I am not
Solomon (05:16:19) : Okay, well give me a minute
Ibrahim (05:16:28) : tyt mate
Solomon (05:16:46) : In England, if you take out university loans, they want their money back
Solomon (05:16:50) : They chanrge interest
Ibrahim (05:16:47) : you are a brilliant chatter =)
Ibrahim (05:17:09) : let's go deeper
Solomon (05:17:41) : However, there are laws in place. They CANNOT demand the money back from you until you're in a financial
position to pay them back without you ending up on the street
Solomon (05:17:57) : This is part of a balance we're trying to create
Ibrahim (05:18:05) : when a baby is born in any nation, he instantly becomes a debtor of the nation in the US for example, a new born baby owed 40.000 dollars, that was 4 years ago) today the debt is higher!!
Solomon (05:18:18) : Capitalism can be a good thing depending on what goes with it
Ibrahim (05:18:46) : it is based in a oppresion = making the poor poorer and the rich richer
Solomon (05:18:52) : Why do you keep focusing on the US? The Us is fucking itself over more and more. I lived there for three months, I was glad to come home
Solomon (05:19:04) : America is a bad example
Ibrahim (05:19:05) : what is the ruling currency on the planet?
Ibrahim (05:19:13) : wake up mate
Solomon (05:19:16) : Gold
Ibrahim (05:19:23) : keep dreaming
Solomon (05:19:34) : Trust me, I will
Solomon (05:19:37) :
Ibrahim (05:20:03) : Gold used to be, Today nations can not justify all that money and back it up with all that gold!
Ibrahim (05:20:35) : so going back to morality
Solomon (05:20:46) : You realise China has been keenly buying up American debt right?
Solomon (05:20:51) : The dollar is worth less and less
Ibrahim (05:20:49) : we all are idiots supporting an oppressive system
Solomon (05:20:55) : Sure, morality
Solomon (05:21:14) : Which oppressive system? There's a number to choose from
Ibrahim (05:21:25) : there isn't
Ibrahim (05:21:31) : dollar rules on the planet
Solomon (05:21:33) : There is
Solomon (05:21:39) : Eh
Ibrahim (05:21:40) : a golabl deceit
Ibrahim (05:21:44) : global*
Solomon (05:21:56) : So did Rome back in the day
Solomon (05:22:01) : What's your point?
Ibrahim (05:22:12) : ISlam however, forbids interest
Ibrahim (05:22:17) : o.O
Solomon (05:22:22) : No it doesn't
Ibrahim (05:22:45) : =)
Solomon (05:23:01) : Islamic banking in the 21st century. You rent an account. It's the exact same thing, just a different name
Ibrahim (05:23:26) : you are talking about a wolf in sheep's clothes! lol
Solomon (05:23:42) : Bibli
cal of you
Ibrahim (05:23:46) : Islam forbids interest, period.
Solomon (05:24:06) : Right, that's why you have to pay money on rent. Same thing, different name
Ibrahim (05:24:17) : paying rent is permitted
Solomon (05:24:26) : It's amount to the same thing
Ibrahim (05:24:26) : but speculating is not
Solomon (05:24:43) : The rent and the interest amount to the exact same thing. The only difference is name
Ibrahim (05:25:01) : not in Islam
Ibrahim (05:25:18) : a loan is the ammount that you are not using and you can borrow
Solomon (05:25:26) : You've never banked islamically have you. Or you've never banked non islamically
Ibrahim (05:25:48) : it is impossible to avoid the bank if you are in a city
Ibrahim (05:26:45) : I don't believe in wolves in sheep's clothes mate
Solomon (05:27:09) : Kaduna secures N22.56 billion islamic bank boan for infrastructure in Nigeria recently
Solomon (05:27:17) : *loan
Ibrahim (05:27:31) : I know there is a try to be islamic
Ibrahim (05:27:52) : but at then end those banks are submitted to the global system
Ibrahim (05:28:06) : there are many studies on that
Solomon (05:28:57) : Qard hassan is a loan extended on a goodwill basis, islamically
Solomon (05:29:03) : That's not islam to you?
Ibrahim (05:29:06) : in the end a new born baby in nigeria will be a new debtor of the system
Solomon (05:29:27) : You're a very glass half empty person aren't you
Ibrahim (05:29:26) : being born with a debt!! awesome =D
Ibrahim (05:29:47) : check at the national debt of each nation
Ibrahim (05:30:05) : the external debt imposed on innocent-idiot citizens
Ibrahim (05:30:27) : that indeed is a human created system
Ibrahim (05:30:32) : it can be imposed
Solomon (05:30:40) : What system isn't
Ibrahim (05:30:38) : marality can not
Solomon (05:30:50) : Morality can and is imposed
Solomon (05:31:10) : If we didn't need to impose it we wouldn't need laws
Ibrahim (05:33:33) : laws today are not preventive, moreover, they create bigger problems like overpopulation of prisoners, frustration in ex-prisoners, corruption, and so on...
Ibrahim (05:33:52) : opposite to morality
Solomon (05:33:57) : Are you American? You focus on the US a lot
Ibrahim (05:34:13) : us is only the first in the list of the first fact
Solomon (05:34:21) : How things work in American isn't how everything works outside of it
Ibrahim (05:34:30) : by the wya, not every American is an US citizen
Solomon (05:35:07) : You remember my university fees example earlier? That right there is imposing morality on the university
Ibrahim (05:35:10) : let's see incarceration in Germany
Ibrahim (05:35:38) : aha
Solomon (05:35:42) : You keep jumping from one thing to another
Solomon (05:35:52) : US, Germany, morality, banks
Solomon (05:36:15) : Who killed Vlad bloody Tepes
Ibrahim (05:36:35) : we are on morality
Solomon (05:36:46) : Morality: human invention
Ibrahim (05:36:48) : and dracula was brought up by you
Ibrahim (05:37:17) : morality: intrinsic feeling not invented
Solomon (05:38:10) : I made the point in reply to your common on how you're sure I'll believe in the supernatural that I'm not going to wake up one day and refuse to go out at night without stakes, crosses garlic and holy water. Point being I have no reason to and just changing my entire
outlook in such a drastic way is silly
Solomon (05:38:36) : And morality is invented
Solomon (05:38:42) : God and evil are human inventions
Solomon (05:38:53) : *good
Ibrahim (05:38:58) : let's see
Solomon (05:39:09) : Dazzel me
Ibrahim (05:39:18) : there is a wild cat killing a baboon
Ibrahim (05:39:38) : suddenly it realized there is a baby baboon attached to its meal
Ibrahim (05:39:53) : the wild cat takes care of it
Ibrahim (05:39:58) : did it learn it from humans?
Ibrahim (05:40:25) : if so, what school was that?
Solomon (05:41:14) : I walked into a rattlesnakes den and it offered me a cup of tea. Did it learn it from the English or the Chinese?
Ibrahim (05:42:02) : I am quoting a real example
Solomon (05:42:19) : I'm replying with something equally as valid
Ibrahim (05:42:22) : you can watch the documentary in youtube
Solomon (05:42:30) : I've seen those vids
Solomon (05:42:39) : Usually they end up dinner after a while
Ibrahim (05:42:40) : so it is not a human invention
Solomon (05:42:52) : It really is
Ibrahim (05:43:15) : how did that invention was passed on the feline ?
Solomon (05:43:46) : Okay, fine, you want to go into it, we'll go into it. Gimme a minute for a good reply
Ibrahim (05:43:51) : it was an act of mercy, a good act
Ibrahim (05:44:03) : according to you, a human invention
Ibrahim (05:44:15) : tyt
Solomon (05:48:05) : Where morals come from, I'd say us. It's ingrained into us on an evolutionary level because we're a social species. It's not just humans. In a wolf pack, if one wolf is to sick or old to hunt other wolves will hunt for it, sometimes chewing the food to make it easier for the sick/old wolf to eat. Primates will care for and guide other primates in their group who may be blind or have some other kind of disability. Dogs will run into a burning building to alert it's sleeping owners, or drag out a child. If we had evolved differently, into more solitary creatures, any morals we had would be alien to us from our current viewpoint I imagine we'd still have communication and trade because it would benefit us. But yes, morals, right, wrong, good, evil, these are human inventions. You may think that if it's just something we made up they aren't real. Obviously they are. The fact they come from us in no way lessens this. We think and we feel and we share pain. We do this because as human being we have empathy. I see a fellow human being and he/she is
in pain, and myself and others understand this. It's the basis of morality. I understand it and I empathise with them as much as I can because I'm not a psychopath. When I see a fellow human being suffering I am moved to try and offer comfort.
Ibrahim (05:49:44) : ingrained into us, exactly what I am saying...then you go back to say it is a human invention, yet you could not justify it for animals
Solomon (05:49:57) : I just did
Ibrahim (05:50:18) : ingrained into us, means, we did not invented it
Solomon (05:50:39) : Did you read hat I wrote?
Ibrahim (05:50:41) : the question would be ingrained by who?
Solomon (05:50:55) : See above
Ibrahim (05:51:06) : you mentioned evolutionary process
Solomon (05:51:18) : I mentioned more than that
Ibrahim (05:51:29) : but that conditions your answer
Ibrahim (05:51:43) : if the specimen is not a man yet, then he can not invent anything
Ibrahim (05:52:02) : (according to evolutionary process)
Solomon (05:52:10) : You miss the part on social species? A dog will adopt a child. See what happens if you try that with a scorpion
Ibrahim (05:52:33) : so I ask again
Ibrahim (05:52:51) : who taught the feline to take care of the baby baboon?
Solomon (05:53:20) : So you want me to repeat myself?
Ibrahim (05:53:33) : the strong evidence suggests that morality is not a human invention
Solomon (05:53:57) : Human morality is the same as feline morality in your
eyes?
Ibrahim (05:54:26) : so now we have two kinds of morality
Solomon (05:54:34) : Solomon (05:52:10) : You miss the part on social species? A dog will adopt a child. See what happens if you try that with a scorpion <------ Take a second to reflect on that
Ibrahim (05:54:40) : a scape door =D
Solomon (05:55:47) : I can give you a list of animals you can apply "morality" (as you're talking about it) to. I can give you a list of animals you'd be stupid for trying to apply it to
Ibrahim (05:55:47) : can you bring any scientific written source corroborating that morality is a human invention?
Solomon (05:55:57) : See above
Ibrahim (05:56:18) : I see no bibliographical references
Solomon (05:56:51) : I can sign it if you like
Ibrahim (05:57:31) : t in The Bonobo and the Atheist, primatologist Frans de Waal argues that there's another answer that fits the data better: morality comes from our evolutionary past as a social primate.
Ibrahim (05:58:05) : a scientist, and expert on the field, contradicts you!
Solomon (05:58:23) : Your point?
Ibrahim (05:58:32) : made
Solomon (05:58:49) : Considerng he said exactly what I said, how exactly?
Ibrahim (05:59:05) : 0.0%
Ibrahim (05:59:33) : Solomon (11:38:35) : And morality is invented
Solomon (06:00:29) : I said it's engrained into us on an evolutionary level because we're a social species, and gave examples of other social species who have gone through a similar process. This person you've just quoted said the same thing. I'll quote your statement for you. "primatologist Frans de Waal argues that there's another answer that fits the data better: morality comes from our evolutionary past as a social primate."
Ibrahim (06:00:28) : this has been a very enriching chat mate!
Ibrahim (06:00:59) : come on dear
Ibrahim (06:01:22) : at half point of your answer you changed back to "invented by men"
Solomon (06:01:37) : So when it's right there in front of you that "morality comes from our evolutionary past as a social primate", what do you see that I don't?
Ibrahim (06:01:36) : quote completely and you will see
Ibrahim (06:01:54) : you said it was invented by humans
Solomon (06:01:59) : It is
Ibrahim (06:02:09) : not according to de Wal
Ibrahim (06:02:12) : Waal
Solomon (06:02:44) : Okay, I think I understand now. You think that the basic of mortality coming from us means it doesn't come from us? How's that work?
Solomon (06:02:52) : *basis
Ibrahim (06:03:22) : whereas the other two possibilities are morality coming from God, or through the applicatin of reason.
Ibrahim (06:03:40) : for sure you know my sound position
Solomon (06:04:06) : It's empathy and reason. Heart and mind working together
. We feel things, we reason how to apply them
Solomon (06:04:28) : Th
e result? We create morality
Ibrahim (06:04:34) : no problem dear, anyone can change his point of view anytime
Solomon (06:04:57) : Okay, let me ask you this. Should ex-muslims who speak out against islam be murdered?
Ibrahim (06:05:24) : no
Ibrahim (06:05:31) : they should be granted a long life
Solomon (06:05:37) : You realise there are those who disagree with you?
Ibrahim (06:05:51) : and given more programmes to talk in
Solomon (06:06:09) : So you see the difference.
Ibrahim (06:06:09) : yes I am aware of it
Solomon (06:06:17) : Yet think the same god gave the sme morality
Ibrahim (06:06:33) : we both agree that bullying on Islam is wrong
Solomon (06:06:43) : Not the point
Ibrahim (06:06:41) : they just apply a different veredict
Ibrahim (06:06:47) : yes it is
Solomon (06:07:07) : I say homosexuality is fine, someone else says it's wrong. Why are our moralities so different?
Ibrahim (06:07:34) : is it right to throw the seeds of the plants we eat into the ocean?
Solomon (06:08:17) : Someone says thou shalt not suffer a witch to live, I say if you're not hurting anyone everyone should be free to believe what they want. Why the different morality? Why is mine so different?
Solomon (06:08:27) : Why does morality look so different in different parts of the world?
Solomon (06:08:35) : Why has it changed so much?
Ibrahim (06:08:44) : the right thing to be done is to put the seed in fertile soil
Solomon (06:09:00) : To simplistic
Ibrahim (06:09:04) : that's why homosexuality is not logically ok
Solomon (06:09:31) : Logically it is okay. So why are our views so different if we were given the same morality by the same god?
Ibrahim (06:10:08) : we could keep the issue within the borders of logic
Ibrahim (06:10:26) : and we go back to my original point
Solomon (06:10:40) : Okay. Why is the US justice
system so different from the Swedish one?
Ibrahim (06:10:45) : If I wanted, I could go out and fulfill all of my desires
Solomon (06:11:05) : What are your desires?
Ibrahim (06:11:09) : because it is formed by different contexts
Ibrahim (06:11:17) : and different thinkers
Ibrahim (06:11:29) : I'll keep my desires to myself
Ibrahim (06:11:39) : but I can bring examples
Solomon (06:11:57) : Do you desire to hurt people? Is the only thing keeping you from unleashing evil onto the world the threat of flames licking your skin?
Ibrahim (06:12:07) : a man doesn't like certain type of race
Ibrahim (06:12:20) : so he tries to annihilate such race
Solomon (06:12:28) : No, let's stay with desires. Do you desire to hurt people? Is the only thing keeping you from unleashing evil onto the world the threat of flames licking your skin?
Ibrahim (06:13:03) : I want people to live in a beautiful garden
Ibrahim (06:13:16) : that is my personal desire
Solomon (06:13:32) : You ever watch those debates with atheists and theists, usually c
hristian or muslim?
Ibrahim (06:13:41) : yes
Solomon (06:14:16) : So many times, the atheist will ask the question "Would you really go out and steal, rape, murder if you lost your belief in god?" And every time the theist will say yes and every time the atheist won't expect that yes. The fact that the atheists keep being surprised by that yes should tell you more than the entire debate
Solomon (06:15:25) : Those people? They aren't good. If the only thing keeping them from going horrible things is the threat of hell, they aren't good people. Just monsters in a cage
Solomon (06:15:55) : Being an atheist myself obviously I still follow codes and live a moral life without the threat of a god, without the threat of hellfire. In fact, I truly believe that if in the end nothing we do matters, all that matters is what we do. And even the smallest act of kindness can be the greatest thing in the world.
Ibrahim (06:16:08) : as Jesus said, no one is good
Ibrahim (06:16:14) :
Solomon (06:16:50) : What do you expect, he was working off the old testament. You ever read that thing?
Ibrahim (06:17:13) : sure
Ibrahim (06:17:40) : let's do something
Ibrahim (06:17:55) : let's read a bit more on morality
Ibrahim (06:18:06) : and let's meet again
Ibrahim (06:18:20) : our chat has been very intense, don't you think?
Ibrahim (06:18:27) : it is midnight here too!
Solomon (06:18:36) : It's been all over the place
Solomon (06:18:45) : Where
are you? Egypt?
Ibrahim (06:18:52) : America
Solomon (06:19:14) : And of course Egypt is ahead. I feel silly
Ibrahim (06:19:14) : in Egypt it should be 6 am
Solomon (06:19:26) : It's 6am here
Solomon (06:19:34) : Well, 6:19
Ibrahim (06:19:31) : just a sign that you are tired too
Ibrahim (06:19:39) : yeah
Solomon (06:20:04) : You know, being in America was an interesting experience for me. You lot are really religious
Ibrahim (06:20:14) : I'll share my email with you
Ibrahim (06:20:19) : ****@edialogue.org.s45.en.wbprx.com
Ibrahim (06:20:32) : if you write to me, do not worry I won't spam you
Solomon (06:20:40) : Sure
Ibrahim (06:20:51) : I am really looking forward to chatting again with you
Solomon (06:21:20) : Yeah, I'll entitle the subject Solomon so you know it's me
Ibrahim (06:21:19) : you can't tell how many "dead brains" come to the chat
Solomon (06:21:37) : I'd believe it
Ibrahim (06:21:51) : finding people like you to chat
Ibrahim (06:22:00) : is like an oasis in the desert
Solomon (06:22:18) : Is Ibrahim your actual name or did you choose it for your screen name? What with the whole wanting to murder his son
Ibrahim (06:22:40) : Ibrahim is my Muslim name
Ibrahim (06:22:50) : my western name is Edward
Solomon (06:23:15) : You CHOSE to call yourself after a bloke that was going to murder his son?
Ibrahim (06:23:13) : ...murder whose son?
Ibrahim (06:23:34) : but he didn't murder him
Solomon (06:23:43) : He was going to
Ibrahim (06:23:40) :
Ibrahim (06:23:58) : do you judge a person who doesn't commit an act?
Ibrahim (06:24:07) : where has your justice gone
Solomon (06:24:15) : It's a fucked up story. Glorifying someone who was going to murder a child
Ibrahim (06:24:29) : watch up your vocabulary please !
Solomon (06:24:40) : How can anyone
be morally serious and claim otherwise?
Ibrahim (06:24:42) : but did not murder
Solomon (06:24:50) : I always watch my vocabulary
Ibrahim (06:24:55) : thank you!
Solomon (06:25:12) : I do my best to say what I mean to
Ibrahim (06:25:10) : Solomon I will be waiting for your email
Ibrahim (06:25:16) : I think we need a fresh start over
Ibrahim (06:25:32) : I really do not like rude words
Solomon (06:25:38) : So this is the end of the chat then? If so, can I leave you with something?
Solomon (06:25:52) : It's not rude, it's a perfectly valid word used to express a certain sentiment
Ibrahim (06:25:50) : do it please
Ibrahim (06:26:07) : I won't debate that
Solomon (06:26:15) : You can sum up everything with a swearword that otherwise you'd be at odds to express
Ibrahim (06:26:22) : this is my house and you are welcome in it, as a highly educated man
Solomon (06:26:34) : Thanks
Ibrahim (06:26:43) : bad words are not welcomed
Solomon (06:27:03) : I don't consider them bad.
Anyway, toodles, thanks for the chat. You made me think of this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDfoJ29CR4ESolomon (06:27:21) : Just to clarify, it's not meant to be mocking, just a laugh
Ibrahim (06:27:17) : ok I will give it a watch
Solomon (06:27:31) : Atheist humour
Ibrahim (06:27:36) : so it is not serious
Ibrahim (06:27:53) : Solomon I am not 25 anymore
Solomon (06:27:59) : Nah, only 4 minutes long. A poke at the story of Abraham, I liked it
Ibrahim (06:28:04) : so my conception of a joke might be pretty different
Ibrahim (06:28:15) : 4 minutes can be wisely spent
Ibrahim (06:28:25) : a capitalist guy should know that better than me!
Solomon (06:28:39) : I never said I was capitalist
Ibrahim (06:28:41) : we don't joke about the prophets
Solomon (06:29:01) : I hope you aren't including me in that we
Ibrahim (06:29:00) : so I'd rather not watching it
Solomon (06:29:05) : I most certainly so
Solomon (06:29:09) : *do
Ibrahim (06:29:18) : of course, I mean we Muslims
Solomon (06:29:39) : So you'd mock non muslim prophets? Prophet Joseph Smith?
Ibrahim (06:29:56) : not a good idea either
Solomon (06:30:11) : Joseph Smith deserves to be mocked
Ibrahim (06:30:08) : the Quran asks us not to do so
Ibrahim (06:30:17) : no mockering =)
Ibrahim (06:30:27) : even if they deserve it
Solomon (06:30:35) : You do realise satire is one of the things that helps progress?
Ibrahim (06:30:50) : satire of oneself yes
Solomon (06:31:05) : Taking the piss out of religion got us out of the dark ages
Ibrahim (06:31:01) : satire of the sacred for others don't
Ibrahim (06:31:07) : doesn't*
Solomon (06:31:33) : Ahh, so Galileo
was wrong to insist the Earth was round. Silly him
Ibrahim (06:31:46) : correction: Muslim enlightenment got you Europeans out of dark ages
Solomon (06:32:05) : That's misleading
Ibrahim (06:32:21) : the more you read the more you will realise it
Solomon (06:32:31) : Indeed
Ibrahim (06:32:30) : I am off now dear
Ibrahim (06:32:37) : I need to get some sleep really
Ibrahim (06:32:44) : peace be upon you!
Solomon (06:32:57) : Can't believe a yank keeps calling me dear. One of the reasons I wouldn't
of guessed
Solomon (06:32:59) : Salam
Ibrahim (06:33:08) : I am not a yank
Ibrahim (06:33:15) : yanks are originally from Europe
Ibrahim (06:33:23) : I am a native American
Ibrahim (06:33:28) : take care
Solomon (06:33:40) : You're a native American
muslim?
Solomon (06:33:43) : Sure, night
Ibrahim (06:33:45) : yes
Ibrahim (06:33:47) : bye
Ibrahim (06:33:49) :
Topic: Conversation with a dawah pusher