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 Topic: How do we choose what is appropriate for women to wear?

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  • How do we choose what is appropriate for women to wear?
     Reply #120 - April 06, 2014, 04:16 PM

    Quote
    But even by that naive, prudish and socially tone deaf definition, you're still using it as a derogatory term.  

    If that's what you mean, fine. But don't expect to go through life unscathed saying shit like that.


    I've always understood that when used as an adjective, whore means sexually immoral and one who just sleeps around with anyone and slutty what I defined it as.
    Derogatory term, hard to say as I don't know exact definition of derogatory. But I know derogatory means negative, so I assume it's also derogatory.
    I don't think slutty is something that I hope women would dress like but I also think nowadays that I shouldn't care that much what people dress like and I know now it doesn't show that that woman automatically has low self-respect. So I'm not thinking that much about it but I would also like to know what's so bad thinking that some dressing is slutty? I mean, if it's immoral for children because it's so sexual, then isn't it obviously kinda slutty?

    And obviously I know words have responsibility. I don't have to go further than few posts to see people calling me on my BS. Calling some woman slut/whore/bitch is bad but I'm now talking purely impersonal, so who would/should beat me up for using a word slutty to describe blatantly sexual and kinda objectifying dress? I just don't get it, I'm sorry. Or maybe I misunderstood what you meant?

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • How do we choose what is appropriate for women to wear?
     Reply #121 - April 06, 2014, 04:19 PM

    I never said that a piece of clothing automatically sexualizes or doesn't sexualize a person, it all depends on the norms and customs of society. I just don't think that we should look at those norms and customs as set in stone, or even "best" or "right". What I meant was that just because a woman dresses sexually provocatively, doesn't make her a "slut". I do have an issue with making the female body into a sexual object, for others to enjoy only. Being a sexual subject, if she enjoys showing off parts of her body, then that fact does not mean she has low self-esteem of self-confidence or self-respect. When you sexualize a young girl and her body, you automatically turn her into a sexual object for others to enjoy because biologically and emotionally she cannot be a sexual subject.  That is why I said that selling puch-up bras for children who have barely started growing breasts is as despicable as the borderline pedophiles who marry 9-12 year old girls. Sexualizing young girls sends the wrong signals to these young minds and this is also one of the reasons why a lot of young women have problems with enjoying sex or being able to say YES or NO to sexual invitations. They see themselves as objects for others to enjoy instead of seeing themselves on equal terms as their male counterparts.


    But it comes back to the problem that if social norm is  not showing nipples, vagina, ass, highest parts of legs, stomach, lower back, upper back, then is someone not following those sexual object or "slutty"?

    Edit: I also don't see how the fact that those girls who haven't yet reach puberty are automatically sexualized when using that kind of clothes but adult female is not automatically sexualized. I agree that those girls are sexualized but I also see women are sexualized with those clothes and men are sexualized with some dressings too.

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • How do we choose what is appropriate for women to wear?
     Reply #122 - April 06, 2014, 04:24 PM

    Oh for fuck's sake.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • How do we choose what is appropriate for women to wear?
     Reply #123 - April 06, 2014, 04:25 PM

    It's not a problem, because the answer is no. There is a problem with the mindset that female sexuality can be "pure", "modest" and "self-respecting" vs "slutty" and "whorish". It's this highly destructive obsession with the female body and sexuality that we have these discussions in the first place, and why there are far more derogatory terms for women in reference to their sexuality than there are for men. To be honest, I can't think of a single derogatory term that is negative and which you can use against men and male sexuality.  

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • How do we choose what is appropriate for women to wear?
     Reply #124 - April 06, 2014, 04:27 PM

    C'mon Ishina, what did I do now?

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • How do we choose what is appropriate for women to wear?
     Reply #125 - April 06, 2014, 04:28 PM

    I also don't see how the fact that those girls who haven't yet reach puberty are automatically sexualized when using that kind of clothes but adult female is not automatically sexualized. I agree that those girls are sexualized but I also see women are sexualized with those clothes and men are sexualized with some dressings too.


    Because there is a reason why you would want a 9 year old girl to have breast like and adult women, especially when you are selling these types of bras in a society where female breasts are seen to be very sexual. In cultures where women go topless, they would find push up bras for their kids insane and completely useless and no kid would want them.

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • How do we choose what is appropriate for women to wear?
     Reply #126 - April 06, 2014, 04:30 PM

    It's not a problem, because the answer is no. There is a problem with the mindset that female sexuality can be "pure", "modest" and "self-respecting" vs "slutty" and "whorish". It's this highly destructive obsession with the female body and sexuality that we have these discussions in the first place, and why there are far more derogatory terms for women in reference to their sexuality than there are for men. To be honest, I can't think of a single derogatory term that is negative and which you can use against men and male sexuality.  


    Gigolo, limanuljaska (slimy douche(man who tries to bone anything).
    Also 'boy' is used, at least in some cultures, as derogatory term for a man who has not had sex or who has had very small amount of sex.

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • How do we choose what is appropriate for women to wear?
     Reply #127 - April 06, 2014, 04:32 PM

    Because there is a reason why you would want a 9 year old girl to have breast like and adult women, especially when you are selling these types of bras in a society where female breasts are seen to be very sexual. In cultures where women go topless, they would find push up bras for their kids insane and completely useless and no kid would want them.


    Great point to explain why it is sexual for the youngsters! But how doesn't it sexualize women too?
    And just to make clear, sexualizing child is obviously much more perverted than sexualizing man or woman, IMHO.

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Re: How do we choose what is appropriate for women to wear?
     Reply #128 - April 06, 2014, 04:33 PM

    C'mon Ishina, what did I do now?

    Find another word to describe women you don't like the look of. Consider this a warning.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • How do we choose what is appropriate for women to wear?
     Reply #129 - April 06, 2014, 04:37 PM

    Great point to explain why it is sexual for the youngsters! But how doesn't it sexualize women too?
    And just to make clear, sexualizing child is obviously much more perverted than sexualizing man or woman, IMHO.


    There is no problem with sexualizing the female body per se, the problem lies in whether she is seen as an object or subject, and whether or not she is valued according to her sexuality. There is no problem with looking at a hot woman in a short dress and red high heels, but there is a problem if you start judging and valuing on the sole basis of her clothing.

    Gigolo, limanuljaska (slimy douche(man who tries to bone anything).
    Also 'boy' is used, at least in some cultures, as derogatory term for a man who has not had sex or who has had very small amount of sex.


    They often refer to men not having sex/not being able to get a woman, and are not nearly as negatively loaded as those used against women, and even if you can come up with two or three you have at least 10 times as many directed towards women.

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • How do we choose what is appropriate for women to wear?
     Reply #130 - April 06, 2014, 04:39 PM

    Well, my mouth has never uttered word "lutka" (slut) or "huora" (whore) aloud and I don't plan to, so I think I'm safe. But your warning is good. Edit: this was to Ishina.

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • How do we choose what is appropriate for women to wear?
     Reply #131 - April 06, 2014, 04:46 PM

    There is no problem with sexualizing the female body per se, the problem lies in whether she is seen as an object or subject, and whether or not she is valued according to her sexuality. There is no problem with looking at a hot woman in a short dress and red high heels, but there is a problem if you start judging and valuing on the sole basis of her clothing.

    They often refer to men not having sex/not being able to get a woman, and are not nearly as negatively loaded as those used against women, and even if you can come up with two or three you have at least 10 times as many directed towards women.


    Yes, objectifying woman is obviously bad and so is judging her ONLY based on her dress. Obviously clothing tells about the person but not to a decree where you can tell what person is like. And I honestly think,
    Quote
    and whether or not she is valued according to her sexuality.

    , this quote of yours is amazing! I have always missed that point.

    I agree that there are more negative terms about women's sexuality and they are much harsher, but I just pointed that there are also negative terms for male sexuality. Only rule breaker is homosexuality, where female homosexuals get with much less terms.

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • How do we choose what is appropriate for women to wear?
     Reply #132 - April 06, 2014, 05:58 PM


    Edit: I also don't see how the fact that those girls who haven't yet reach puberty are automatically sexualized when using that kind of clothes but adult female is not automatically sexualized.


    Because kids are not sexuality active nor have sexual feelings, therefore it is immoral and inapropriate doh.. wacko  ofcourse revealing clothes sexualize a woman but she is in control of her sexuality in most cases.
  • How do we choose what is appropriate for women to wear?
     Reply #133 - April 06, 2014, 06:32 PM

    I did not understand that it was about someone being objectified, not sexualized. Then I agree, child is objectified and woman sexualizes herself.

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • How do we choose what is appropriate for women to wear?
     Reply #134 - April 06, 2014, 06:35 PM

    Define "woman sexualizes herself".

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • How do we choose what is appropriate for women to wear?
     Reply #135 - April 06, 2014, 07:56 PM

    Ask from the ones who used it (Suki & Cornflower, I think). I'm really busy now, I just saw your post. I don't have the energy to define anything now. Sorry!

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • How do we choose what is appropriate for women to wear?
     Reply #136 - April 06, 2014, 07:58 PM

    I never used the expression "women sexualizes herself", so I'm not sure what you mean. Smiley

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • How do we choose what is appropriate for women to wear?
     Reply #137 - April 06, 2014, 08:01 PM

    I think it means "slutty". Cheesy

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • How do we choose what is appropriate for women to wear?
     Reply #138 - April 06, 2014, 08:15 PM

    t'wasnt me..   : )

    xooo
  • How do we choose what is appropriate for women to wear?
     Reply #139 - April 08, 2014, 01:56 AM

    I never said that a piece of clothing automatically sexualizes or doesn't sexualize a person, it all depends on the norms and customs of society. I just don't think that we should look at those norms and customs as set in stone, or even "best" or "right". What I meant was that just because a woman dresses sexually provocatively, doesn't make her a "slut". I do have an issue with making the female body into a sexual object, for others to enjoy only. Being a sexual subject, if she enjoys showing off parts of her body, then that fact does not mean she has low self-esteem of self-confidence or self-respect. When you sexualize a young girl and her body, you automatically turn her into a sexual object for others to enjoy because biologically and emotionally she cannot be a sexual subject.  That is why I said that selling puch-up bras for children who have barely started growing breasts is as despicable as the borderline pedophiles who marry 9-12 year old girls. Sexualizing young girls sends the wrong signals to these young minds and this is also one of the reasons why a lot of young women have problems with enjoying sex or being able to say YES or NO to sexual invitations. They see themselves as objects for others to enjoy instead of seeing themselves on equal terms as their male counterparts.


    I don't think we're really addressing one another so I'll put my question in a different way.

    Why does it matter what a young girl wears?

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • How do we choose what is appropriate for women to wear?
     Reply #140 - April 08, 2014, 02:24 AM

    ^I think I'm the one who brought up the kid thing, so I may as well offer my defense of that idea.

    For one thing, when you're a young kid of, say, 7, your body has not reached sexual maturity, which is indicated in humans by a number of things. One of those things is usually the obvious development of breasts. Now, something like a padded push-up bikini for a child is specifically designed to give the appearance of having cleavage--and for what purpose? It does nothing besides give the illusion of sexual maturity. The child will most certainly pick up on that, and, perhaps, others will, too.

    Besides it not being the best idea to give children provocative outfits and send them out in a world where, unfortunately, children are sometimes victims of sexual abuse and exploitation as it is, a number of studies, including a pretty big one by the APA back in 2007, have suggested that introducing children too early to things like provocative clothing or other things heavy on beauty and sexuality can disrupt healthy psychological development, and expose children to a number of mental issues such as low self-esteem and anxiety with their body image.

    The psychology and the mental faculties of a child and an adult are simply not comparable. If you are asking why it is fine for a woman to be in control of her sexuality and her physical appearance, but why it is not fine for a young child, it may help for you to remember this important distinction.
  • How do we choose what is appropriate for women to wear?
     Reply #141 - April 08, 2014, 02:56 AM

    Wearing/not wearing clothing isn't like weed or driving a car. There's nothing inherently dangerous about the thing itself, so I dunno why we're talking about a certain age needing to be reached.

    Exploitation is irrelevant if we're assuming that the child/parent aren't endangering themselves. Finally the first objection that you mentioned is that there is something about the clothing that creates an illusion of sexual maturity. I still fail to see how that's relevant in how a child/parent chooses to dress themself.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • How do we choose what is appropriate for women to wear?
     Reply #142 - April 08, 2014, 03:01 AM

    If you go naked out in public in our society, its considered not only socially unacceptable, but also immoral and often leads to criminal sanction.

    I think that there's something very, very wrong about that being the case and is necessarily symptomatic of a greater social ill.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • How do we choose what is appropriate for women to wear?
     Reply #143 - April 08, 2014, 03:04 AM

    Wearing/not wearing clothing isn't like weed or driving a car. There's nothing inherently dangerous about the thing itself, so I dunno why we're talking about a certain age needing to be reached.

    Exploitation is irrelevant if we're assuming that the child/parent aren't endangering themselves. Finally the first objection that you mentioned is that there is something about the clothing that creates an illusion of sexual maturity. I still fail to see how that's relevant in how a child/parent chooses to dress themself.


    While something is not inherently dangerous on its own, we must understand that there may nevertheless be consequences associated with them in certain situations and circumstances.

    Like I said before, one of those circumstances is the early exposure to standards of beauty and sexuality in children who are neither sexually or mentally mature, and who have less capacity to make conscious decisions for themselves in respect to what will be of least psychological harm to them. As I said, there have been many studies relating this premature exposure to these things with confidence and anxiety issues in children.

    If you want to take the possibility of increased exploitation out of it for some reason, that is fine, it is a trickier thing for me to assert as I doubt there's much data on that. But you cannot ignore the psychological findings of introducing a child to beauty standards and sexuality before they reach a state of maturity.
  • How do we choose what is appropriate for women to wear?
     Reply #144 - April 08, 2014, 03:06 AM

    If you go naked out in public in our society, its considered not only socially unacceptable, but also immoral and often leads to criminal sanction.

    I think that there's something very, very wrong about that being the case and is necessarily symptomatic of a greater social ill.


    On this, we can pretty much agree.
  • How do we choose what is appropriate for women to wear?
     Reply #145 - April 08, 2014, 03:24 AM

    If you want to take the possibility of increased exploitation out of it for some reason, that is fine, it is a trickier thing for me to assert as I doubt there's much data on that. But you cannot ignore the psychological findings of introducing a child to beauty standards and sexuality before they reach a state of maturity.


    Why should we assume that this is the paradigm under which a child is dressing in a certain manner? There's any number of reasons for a child to be dressed in any way.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • How do we choose what is appropriate for women to wear?
     Reply #146 - April 08, 2014, 03:31 AM

    Why should we assume that this is the paradigm under which a child is dressing in a certain manner? There's any number of reasons for a child to be dressed in any way.


    A little confused by your wording...Or perhaps mine wasn't so clear to begin with. The intention is not the important thing. The important thing is whether or not an early concern with beauty or with appearing sexually attractive has be potential to be psychologically damaging. The reasons for dressing that way is unimportant. It is whether or not consequences are observed, and there's a correlation between dressing with the aim to attain a beauty standard or a sexual standard as a child, whether by the child's own volition or someone else's, and an increase in these mental issues.
  • How do we choose what is appropriate for women to wear?
     Reply #147 - April 08, 2014, 03:36 AM

    So if a child thinks something is "pretty" and then chooses to wear it, they're likely to experience mental issues and psychological damage?

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • How do we choose what is appropriate for women to wear?
     Reply #148 - April 08, 2014, 03:48 AM

    So if a child thinks something is "pretty" and then chooses to wear it, they're likely to experience mental issues and psychological damage?


    Of course not. Ideally, I think we'd all choose our clothing based on our own personal tastes. The problem comes in when, like I said, they are aware too early of standards in beauty and the concept of sexuality. A child is very unlikely to find a bikini top specifically engineered to make her look like she had developed breasts to be pretty on that merit. Whether consciously or subconsciously, a desire for that specific function is a symptom of early sexualization.

    I guess it's time to inject some sources to see if we can clear this up. Excerpts taken from an APA article (http://www.apa.org/pi/women/programs/girls/report.aspx)

    Quote
    If girls purchase (or ask their parents to purchase) products and clothes designed to make them look physically appealing and sexy, and if they style their identities after the sexy celebrities who populate their cultural landscape, they are, in effect, sexualizing themselves. Girls also sexualize themselves when they think of themselves in objectified terms. Psychological researchers have identified self-objectification as a key process whereby girls learn to think of and treat their own bodies as objects of others’ desires (Frederickson & Roberts, 1997; McKinley & Hyde, 1996). In self-objectification, girls internalize an observer’s perspective on their physical selves and learn to treat themselves as objects to be looked at and evaluated for their appearance. Numerous studies have documented the presence of self-objectification in women more than in men. Several studies have also documented this phenomenon in adolescent and preadolescent girls (McConnell, 2001; Slater & Tiggemann, 2002).


    Quote
    Although most of these studies have been conducted on women in late adolescence (i.e., college age), findings are likely to generalize to younger adolescents and to girls, who may be even more strongly affected because their sense of self is still being formed.[...]
    Cognitively, self-objectification has been repeatedly shown to detract from the ability to concentrate and focus one’s attention, thus leading to impaired performance on mental activities such as mathematical computations or logical reasoning (Frederickson, Roberts, Noll, Quinn & Twenge, 1998; Gapinski, Brownell & LaFrance, 2003; Hebl, King & Lin, 2004). [...] In the emotional domain, sexualization and objectification undermine confidence in and comfort with one’s own body, leading to a host of negative emotional consequences, such as shame, anxiety, and even self-disgust. The association between self-objectification and anxiety about appearance and feelings of shame has been found in adolescent girls (12–13-year-olds) (Slater & Tiggemann, 2002) as well as in adult women. [...] Research also links exposure to sexualized female ideals with lower self-esteem, negative mood and depressive symptoms among adolescent girls and women. [...] evidence suggests that the sexualization of girls has negative consequences in terms of girls’ ability to develop healthy sexuality. [...] Negative effects (e.g., shame) that emerge during adolescence may lead to sexual problems in adulthood (Brotto, Heiman & Tolman, in press).[...] More general societal effects may include [...] increased rates of sexual harassment and sexual violence; and an increased demand for child pornography.

  • How do we choose what is appropriate for women to wear?
     Reply #149 - April 08, 2014, 03:54 AM

    From source: "Self-motivated sexual exploration, on the other hand, is not sexualization by our definition, nor is age-appropriate exposure to information about sexuality."

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
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