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 Topic: DawahMan & Hamza Tzortzis concerned about the Counter-Dawahganda Movement

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  • Re: DawahMan & Hamza Tzortzis concerned about the Counter-Dawahganda Movement
     Reply #30 - March 21, 2014, 08:08 PM
    Quote from: Qtian on March 21, 2014, 07:53 PM
    That's based on a conditional though isn't it?  Positive atheism is saying that "God doesn't exist" since we can't prove it's counter proposition we can't really disprove/prove that. The best we can do is show the illogic behind it imho.

    There isn't really much difference between saying a god is logically impossible and saying it doesn't exist.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • DawahMan & Hamza Tzortzis concerned about the Counter-Dawahganda Movement
     Reply #31 - March 21, 2014, 08:09 PM
    It's just the sort of thing that religious types would say though: "If you don't believe in God you'll get the anal probe........"

    It'd be on a par with their usual threats.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • DawahMan & Hamza Tzortzis concerned about the Counter-Dawahganda Movement
     Reply #32 - March 21, 2014, 08:09 PM
    Hey dude, you just claimed that I make typos!

    The anus of proof is now on you to prove that!

    Oh SHIT, I meant onus.
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • DawahMan & Hamza Tzortzis concerned about the Counter-Dawahganda Movement
     Reply #33 - March 21, 2014, 08:10 PM
    Quote from: billy on March 21, 2014, 06:01 PM
    Da'wah is lies, and they are liars. Nothing they can say, no matter how slick the dawah propaganda, or 'narrative', will change that. Liars will fool some tiny miniscule amount of vulnerable people who have good natures and are easily fooled, or people who want to be fooled, but in this day and age, in this society when dawah liars have no way to enforce society into silence (unlike in Islamic countries), liars will simply always be exposed as liars. Its as simple as that. Liars are liars and will always be seen to be liars, and lies will be exposed as lies.


    For their own sake, I would be charitable and accept that they sincerely believe their nonsense (because they desperately want it to be true).

    It is good enough if at least a few of them are able recognize their mistakes and change (whatever the change maybe). I mean, they didn't have to do any of this; they could have easily just went "you are wrong lalalala" and I am sure they would still have their following of gullible circle-jerkers. So I'd like to take it as a step for the better since they are going out of their way to let people know their old arguments are shit
    http://www.youtube.com/captaindisguise
    http://captaindisguise.blogspot.com/
    http://dawahganda.blogspot.com/
    https://twitter.com/CaptainDG64

    "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies" ~ Nietzsche
  • DawahMan & Hamza Tzortzis concerned about the Counter-Dawahganda Movement
     Reply #34 - March 21, 2014, 08:13 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on March 21, 2014, 08:08 PM
    There isn't really much difference between saying a god is logically impossible and saying it doesn't exist.


    Based on current evidence, I'd have to agree. However, that doesn't change the notion of what falsifiability is.
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • DawahMan & Hamza Tzortzis concerned about the Counter-Dawahganda Movement
     Reply #35 - March 21, 2014, 08:18 PM
    Here's an analogy.

    Many a moon ago, people used to believe that the world was flat.  When evidence counter to that became available, the claim became falsifiable.
    The claim was eventually proven to be untrue, and we have since accepted the truth.

    This means that that although the claim became falsifiable, it didn't change the notion of what falsifiability is. Thus in a state of inertia wrt evidence a claim can only be falsified when empirical evidence related to that proposition is made available.

    These are my thoughts on the basis of my philosophical knowledge anyway.
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • DawahMan & Hamza Tzortzis concerned about the Counter-Dawahganda Movement
     Reply #36 - March 21, 2014, 08:19 PM
    Quote from: captndisguise on March 21, 2014, 08:10 PM
    For their own sake, I would be charitable and accept that they sincerely believe their nonsense (because they desperately want it to be true).

    It is good enough if at least a few of them are able recognize their mistakes and change (whatever the change maybe). I mean, they didn't have to do any of this; they could have easily just went "you are wrong lalalala" and I am sure they would still have their following of gullible circle-jerkers. So I'd like to take it as a step for the better since they are going out of their way to let people know their old arguments are shit


    It is a level of self-awareness that I didn't expect from them, but I think the force against their claims just became so undeniable that they had to face facts in order to cut some losses and save themselves embarrassment after the quote-mined scientists turned on them. It seems they mentioned the hits that the sites were getting for a reason. I think it was clearly a big factor in motivating them to tweak their strategy. Had the attention to the debunking sources been very low in comparison to the traffic for dawah sources, they might have ignored it for longer.

    Tzortzis is clearly not a moron. I sometimes wonder to what degree he believes what he says, if he is so swept up in the identity and praise and love he has found in his success, or if his convictions are always as strong as he presents them to be.
  • DawahMan & Hamza Tzortzis concerned about the Counter-Dawahganda Movement
     Reply #37 - March 21, 2014, 08:20 PM
    Quote from: Qtian on March 21, 2014, 08:13 PM
    Based on current evidence, I'd have to agree. However, that doesn't change the notion of what falsifiability is.

    Well, when theists can present a god that isn't impossible, I'll start wondering if I should accept the possibility of it existing or not.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • DawahMan & Hamza Tzortzis concerned about the Counter-Dawahganda Movement
     Reply #38 - March 21, 2014, 08:22 PM
    @Ishina

    Exactly! that is why it is unfalsifiable.  Anyway, let's cause an end to this disagreement (if it is one) these sorts of argument have a lot of epistemic circularity in them.
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • DawahMan & Hamza Tzortzis concerned about the Counter-Dawahganda Movement
     Reply #39 - March 21, 2014, 08:22 PM
    I agree to disagree with you Ishina (if you are disagreeing). If you aren't, I apologise for that statement.
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • DawahMan & Hamza Tzortzis concerned about the Counter-Dawahganda Movement
     Reply #40 - March 21, 2014, 08:25 PM
     Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • DawahMan & Hamza Tzortzis concerned about the Counter-Dawahganda Movement
     Reply #41 - March 21, 2014, 08:28 PM
    Ok, instead of "God doesn't exist" I'll say "Most gods can't even possibly exist."
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • DawahMan & Hamza Tzortzis concerned about the Counter-Dawahganda Movement
     Reply #42 - March 21, 2014, 08:34 PM
    I never said that you can't say that God doesn't exist!  I just said that it does invite a burden of proof.  You may state whatever you want, I have no right to tell you what to claim.
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • DawahMan & Hamza Tzortzis concerned about the Counter-Dawahganda Movement
     Reply #43 - March 21, 2014, 08:38 PM
    The same burden of proof I have when I say Spiderman doesn't exist.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • DawahMan & Hamza Tzortzis concerned about the Counter-Dawahganda Movement
     Reply #44 - March 21, 2014, 08:40 PM
    Not particularly, we can deductively assign a creator "God" (albeit with a faulty cosmological premise). We can't really do with Spiderman, it's a straw man when used against the monotheistic God hypothesis & a category error since the premise of God vs the premise of Spiderman serve completely different purposes( i.e. non physicality). But yeah, both situations present a burden of proof if we claim that they exist.  Anyways, I'm done with this topic now it's not too exhaustive so we could go for ages and I don't want to.
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • DawahMan & Hamza Tzortzis concerned about the Counter-Dawahganda Movement
     Reply #45 - March 21, 2014, 08:48 PM
    We can deductively establish literally anything with faulty premises.

    All men are bald.
    Qtian is a man.
    Therefore, Qtian is bald.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • DawahMan & Hamza Tzortzis concerned about the Counter-Dawahganda Movement
     Reply #46 - March 21, 2014, 08:53 PM
    Indeed, but Spiderman as we know him,  does not fit the criterion of either God hypothesis 1 or 2, thus it's a category error.

    All men are mortal
    Socrates is mortal
    Soc. is mortal therefore socrates is a man

    I'm aware of modus ponens Tongue
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • DawahMan & Hamza Tzortzis concerned about the Counter-Dawahganda Movement
     Reply #47 - March 21, 2014, 08:56 PM
    Anyways, thanks for the discussion Ishina, I have to get off my computer for a bit, so I can get work done Tongue
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • DawahMan & Hamza Tzortzis concerned about the Counter-Dawahganda Movement
     Reply #48 - March 21, 2014, 08:58 PM
    Quote from: Qtian on March 21, 2014, 08:53 PM
    Indeed, but Spiderman as we know him,  does not fit the criterion of either God hypothesis 1 or 2, thus it's a category error.

    What hypothesis? All I hear from theists is a bare claim that a magic creature exists.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • DawahMan & Hamza Tzortzis concerned about the Counter-Dawahganda Movement
     Reply #49 - March 21, 2014, 09:01 PM
    Oh, there are two main philosophical hypotheses for God. One is classified as the Monotheistic (GH2) one the other is a physical creator of the universe(GH1)
    I'll inbox you the details if you want, I find this discourse in philosophy fascinating.
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • DawahMan & Hamza Tzortzis concerned about the Counter-Dawahganda Movement
     Reply #50 - March 21, 2014, 09:02 PM
    *claims he has to do some work........

    *continues thread...................

     Cheesy
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • DawahMan & Hamza Tzortzis concerned about the Counter-Dawahganda Movement
     Reply #51 - March 21, 2014, 09:04 PM
    Quote from: Qtian on March 21, 2014, 09:01 PM
    Oh, there are two main philosophical hypotheses for God. One is classified as the Monotheistic (GH2) one the other is a physical creator of the universe(GH1)
    I'll inbox you the details if you want, I find this discourse in philosophy fascinating.

    Put them in a thread or something so we can all discuss it.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • DawahMan & Hamza Tzortzis concerned about the Counter-Dawahganda Movement
     Reply #52 - March 21, 2014, 09:09 PM
    Ok cool, I'll do it later, just jumping off at the moment. remind me please.
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • DawahMan & Hamza Tzortzis concerned about the Counter-Dawahganda Movement
     Reply #53 - March 21, 2014, 09:10 PM
    Remember to start that thread.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • DawahMan & Hamza Tzortzis concerned about the Counter-Dawahganda Movement
     Reply #54 - March 21, 2014, 09:12 PM
    If you want something done right, do it yourself.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • DawahMan & Hamza Tzortzis concerned about the Counter-Dawahganda Movement
     Reply #55 - March 21, 2014, 09:12 PM
    =.= ill start it in 2 hours, hopefully.
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • DawahMan & Hamza Tzortzis concerned about the Counter-Dawahganda Movement
     Reply #56 - March 21, 2014, 09:16 PM
    I'd prefer just a casual dialogue. I lose interest in long-statement debates, unless I'm in the mood. Prefer something more interactive.

    Also, I'm going out soon.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • DawahMan & Hamza Tzortzis concerned about the Counter-Dawahganda Movement
     Reply #57 - March 21, 2014, 09:17 PM
    Yeah I quickly realised that the two aren't really up for debate anyways, it would be stupid to force a debate out of them. You'll realise what I mean when it's posted.
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • DawahMan & Hamza Tzortzis concerned about the Counter-Dawahganda Movement
     Reply #58 - March 21, 2014, 09:22 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on March 21, 2014, 09:02 PM
    *claims he has to do some work........

    *continues thread...................

     Cheesy


    I am going now!  I have a bad habit of posting even when I shouldn't be.
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • DawahMan & Hamza Tzortzis concerned about the Counter-Dawahganda Movement
     Reply #59 - March 21, 2014, 09:32 PM
    So I watched the video. I heard no rebuttals to the arguments against the refutation of their claims. All I heard was waffling on topics which both figures said were true, propagated as true which has now been refuted.
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