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 Topic: the lies of 'Islamic Feminism'

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  • the lies of 'Islamic Feminism'
     Reply #120 - March 22, 2014, 07:00 PM
    Quote from: suki on March 22, 2014, 06:16 PM
    Hi Quod, you dont need one, in islam everyone is equal, no royalty, no leader just a representative, an iman is not a religious leader he just leads the prayer, muslims dont need a court, you can get married or divorced via text if u want, so long as you have witnesses for everything.. Shariah court and shariah law is a load of bs


    This is not true. Why do women have mahram and wali, if they are equal?
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • the lies of 'Islamic Feminism'
     Reply #121 - March 22, 2014, 07:16 PM
    i knew i shouldnt have said what i said Smiley..  i mean they are meant to be..  islam is so messed up with so many conflicting versions and practises that it is impossible to even have a proper debate, thats why i gave up talking about it years ago.. Its such a mess..

    I best get off here, been on all day...

    Xxxxxx
  • the lies of 'Islamic Feminism'
     Reply #122 - March 22, 2014, 08:42 PM
    Quote from: three on March 22, 2014, 05:02 PM
    This is very interesting. I remember being told women had the right to initiate divorce in certain situations. Does the buyout stipulation change in those cases, such as when the husband is apostate or neglecting her? Are there no wife initiated divorces free of it?


    Talaq can only be initiated by the husband.
    Khul is not divorce, rather "separation", and is on the woman's initiative but only if the husband agrees or if the judge sees it fit to "persuade" the husband. She then must buy her out of the marriage by returning all her mahr, in addition to other posessions and money if the husband asks for it.
    There can be separation by order of the court, and the wife can ask the court to make a judgment in the matter. But that request must be accompanied with legitimate reasons such as the husband not fulfilling his obligations such as providing for his family within his means (ie he just doesn't pay the rent or buys food even though he has money for it). But the judge can refuse to grant the woman separation if he sees that the problem can be solved in some other way.

    In the end, no, the wife can never initiate a divorce or separation without a man's consent either her husband's or the judge's
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • the lies of 'Islamic Feminism'
     Reply #123 - March 22, 2014, 08:46 PM
    Ok, so what's the practical difference between "separation" and "divorce"?
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • the lies of 'Islamic Feminism'
     Reply #124 - March 22, 2014, 08:51 PM
    Quote from: suki on March 22, 2014, 06:16 PM
    Hi Quod, you dont need one, in islam everyone is equal, no royalty, no leader just a representative, an iman is not a religious leader he just leads the prayer, muslims dont need a court, you can get married or divorced via text if u want, so long as you have witnesses for everything.. Shariah court and shariah law is a load of bs


    I agree with three, that is simply not true. And it has nothing to do with different interpretations. Islam is an extremely hierarchal ideology, every single unit in society must have someone "in charge". The state must have it's khalifa, the court must have it's judge (remember that Shariah and Islam does not support a codified law, which means that people are at the whims of that particular judge they come in contact with), the family unit has it's patriarch and even amongs friends when traveling, the group must appoint a "leader" of the group. When leading prayer, an imam (leader) is selected and for all of this there are pretty clear cut guidelines who comes in what order in the line to take charge. The woman must always have a wali for matters pertaining to her life, and if she marries it goes from father to husband. If she has no father, then her paternal uncle or grandfather, then maternal uncle and grandfather, then her son etc etc etc.
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • the lies of 'Islamic Feminism'
     Reply #125 - March 22, 2014, 08:57 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on March 22, 2014, 08:46 PM
    Ok, so what's the practical difference between "separation" and "divorce"?


    It's just that talaq usually translates as divorce but khul' as separation. Divorce needs no other person's consent or initiative except the husband. In case of separation by khul', the woman takes initiative and must give back mahr etc as I've stated before. But in the end, she has no power over the separation as the husband has over divorce. Separation by orders of the court, the husband nor the wife has anhy real say in the matter once the judge has made a ruling. The couple can be separated by the support of relatives (there is a passage that talks about "reconciling" the couple by the help of "supporters" or family members). We used the different terminology in order to separate the different rulings connected which each type of case. A marriage can also be annulled, but that is a whole other story with additional complicated rulings.
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • the lies of 'Islamic Feminism'
     Reply #126 - March 22, 2014, 09:06 PM
    Yeah I get that a woman has to jump through many more hoops. I was wondering what the difference (if any) was in terms of results once the process was finalised. "Separation", to most people in western societies, would imply something that may or may not be temporary, whereas divorce is final.

    This talaq business: you mentioned that the bloke can decide to take his wife back, even if she wants out. How long does this right apply after the initial talaq?
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • the lies of 'Islamic Feminism'
     Reply #127 - March 22, 2014, 09:10 PM
    However long it takes, a ho never had it so good you feel me? Islam respects dem bitches yo.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • the lies of 'Islamic Feminism'
     Reply #128 - March 22, 2014, 10:24 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on March 22, 2014, 09:06 PM
    .............How long does this right apply after the initial talaq?


    Quote
    229-230:   Take note that when dissolution of marriage takes place for the first time, it is possible either to finalise the dissolution or resume marital relationship. According to Law if marital relationship is resumed and dissolution takes place once again, then also it is permissible either to finalise the dissolution or resume marital ties. However, if marital ties are resumed and dissolution takes place for the third time, then remarriage is not permissible. The only exception to this is as follows: if the woman marries another man and dissolution takes place, then it is permissible for her to remarry her former husband. These are the limitations imposed by Allah’s Laws, do not transgress them and whoever does so, would be held guilty in the eyes of the Law. (Dissolution of a marriage is a serious matter and should not take place without due consideration or trivially.)   ......Quran chater-2

    that is a fun one on talaq.  but there is whole chapter on that in Quran...

    So...If a Muhammad following ROBOTIC IDIOT divorces his wife for some silly reason and if they want to reconcile again.     THE LADY HAS TO MARRY SOME OTHER GUY AND SLEEP WITH HIM , MAKE SOME BABIES & DIVORCE THE GUY AND REMARRY HER FIRST BELOVED HUSBAND?? 


    And this is circular logic of Islam
    Quote
    "Quran Says so, so I believe That it is the word of Allah"
    "Quran Says so, so I believe Muhammad is the Last messenger & Prophet of Allah"
    Quran Says so, so I believe Prophet Muhammad can act like SODOM"

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • the lies of 'Islamic Feminism'
     Reply #129 - March 22, 2014, 10:29 PM
    That doesn't answer the question. Tongue
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • the lies of 'Islamic Feminism'
     Reply #130 - March 22, 2014, 10:33 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on March 22, 2014, 10:29 PM
    That doesn't answer the question. Tongue

      finmad  Ohyeee  Osama   your question is incomplete. you didn't mention w.r.t what kind of women is getting divorced?

    If the women is voluptuous..good looking.. still on period then 

    "the divorced women should keep themselves in waiting for three courses"

    the rules are different if she didn't had period.. if they didn't sleep together before dovorce..etc..etc..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • the lies of 'Islamic Feminism'
     Reply #131 - March 22, 2014, 11:33 PM
     from what i know an iman is not needed for a marriage ceremony, a pious person is ok, wali is included as the witnesess i mentioned as compulsory, wali doesnt have to be a father or brother, it can be someone who is an elder or someone respectable, in my old muslim community people got married and divorced among friends, some married at the mosque because they enjoyed the ceremony, some got married at home with family, my ex performed divorce with his group of friends as counsellors and witnesses, and i got divorced by his two brothers over the phone, his brother also divorced his wife by letter with two witnesses.. Anyway, thats all i know, and witnessed, i guess it will be totally different in an islamic country under shariah law that is very backwards..

    Peace xxooooo
  • the lies of 'Islamic Feminism'
     Reply #132 - March 22, 2014, 11:53 PM
    Quote
    Quote from: suki on March 22, 2014, 02:51 PM
     i remember the iman laughing out loud

    Quote from: suki on March 22, 2014, 11:33 PM
    from what i know an iman is not needed for a marriage ceremony, ............


    hellooooo....... suki I have not read all the posts of yours so greetings and my good wishes to you..

    So I read twice that word iman.,  and you seem to use it for the word "Imam".  In Islam Imams are  Idiots(not all but many) where as the word "Iman" has special meaning., Translation may read it as "Belief"  but it is more than just belief.  it is in fact,  "utterly blind unquestionable unwavering belief for all times. "
    Quote
    ......My dowry was 100 pounds lol, thats all im worth apparently Cry  ........
    Sorry just blurting out an uneducated rant ..

    whaaat? 100 pounds ?  100 pooooounds ??   that is a loooooootsss  of money  in some countries., In the LAND OF PURE  it is close to 17000 rupees.. you are a riiiiiiich girl kiddoo..    

    No., no you are not blurting suki ., write it away.. rant it  away
    Quote
    Peace xxooooo

    peace??  peace??? what peace??   what is it good for?

    what is it good for with no wars??    so no peace.. never..never ever?? never ever never for yeezevee...

    With best wishes'
    yeezevee
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • the lies of 'Islamic Feminism'
     Reply #133 - March 23, 2014, 12:01 AM
    You're funny Yeezevee...  : )  i didnt care about the money, not one for caring about material things, i was joking around..     


    ok, no peace for you lol xoo
  • the lies of 'Islamic Feminism'
     Reply #134 - March 23, 2014, 12:07 AM
    Quote from: suki on March 23, 2014, 12:01 AM
    i didnt care about the money, not one for caring about material things, i was joking around..     

    what?   you have some Utopian ideals stored in your brain  suki.

    No..no.,   YOU MUST CARE FOR MONEY.. YOU MUST CARE FOR MATERIAL THINGS., if you were a rich girl like Khadija(ra),  then rascals will line up and no scoundrel will dare to give you 100 pounds.

    So,  one of the goal in your life MUST BE to make money.. make lots of it kiddo. Now it is different what you do with it  but first make it suki..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • the lies of 'Islamic Feminism'
     Reply #135 - March 23, 2014, 01:44 AM
    no idea if anyone's already said this.

    Fuck those people who wear hijab voluntarily and don't acknowledge the vast amount of forced women. In fact, they walk around saying "oh am I oppressed? Do I look oppressed". Hey, fuck you.

     *having a bad day* finmad
    Quote from: ZooBear 

    • Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.

  • the lies of 'Islamic Feminism'
     Reply #136 - March 23, 2014, 01:47 AM
    ^  Grin

    That irks me nowadays, too. We clearly aren't talking about the privileged and the fortunate who were blessed by men and circumstances that support her. I can wear a hijab (and, indeed, have) as a non-Muslim. Deciding to veil is not the issue.

    Edit: Also sorry you are having a bad day!
  • the lies of 'Islamic Feminism'
     Reply #137 - March 23, 2014, 03:44 AM
    Quote from: Jila on March 23, 2014, 01:44 AM
    no idea if anyone's already said this.

    Fuck those people who wear hijab voluntarily and don't acknowledge the vast amount of forced women. In fact, they walk around saying "oh am I oppressed? Do I look oppressed". Hey, fuck you.

     *having a bad day* finmad

     

     far away hug   

    I know what you mean. To hell with all those holier than thou hypocrites.

    That is kind of like the hijaabi girl I overheard at my uni on why she hates malala because she is a western tool to make Islam look bad. 

    It took all the strength I had in me to ignore her and stay in my chair. I had an urge to call her out on her bullshit and say "Hey! you have the privilege of having a "western education" and then you have the audacity to try and shame a girl who is fighting for her right for the same education you get " And since you haven't even done a fraction of what Malala's done for human rights and education you best keep your stupid mouth shut.

    God! I wanted to tell that stupid hypocrite off soo bad. 
    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • the lies of 'Islamic Feminism'
     Reply #138 - March 23, 2014, 03:49 AM
    Do it. Although maybe suggest that it's the Taliban making Islam look bad, rather than just calling her a raving fucktard.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • the lies of 'Islamic Feminism'
     Reply #139 - March 23, 2014, 03:50 AM
    Isn't Malala a practicing Muslim anyway? Doesn't she wear the hijab?
  • the lies of 'Islamic Feminism'
     Reply #140 - March 23, 2014, 03:56 AM
    Quote from: TheDarkRebel on March 23, 2014, 03:44 AM
     

     far away hug   

    I know what you mean. To hell with all those holier than thou hypocrites.

    That is kind of like the hijaabi girl I overheard at my uni on why she hates malala because she is a western tool to make Islam look bad. 

    It took all the strength I had in me to ignore her and stay in my chair. I had an urge to call her out on her bullshit and say "Hey! you have the privilege of having a "western education" and then you have the audacity to try and shame a girl who is fighting for her right for the same education you get " And since you haven't even done a fraction of what Malala's done for human rights and education you best keep your stupid mouth shut.

    God! I wanted to tell that stupid hypocrite off soo bad. 

    I would have.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • the lies of 'Islamic Feminism'
     Reply #141 - March 23, 2014, 01:13 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on March 22, 2014, 09:06 PM
    Yeah I get that a woman has to jump through many more hoops. I was wondering what the difference (if any) was in terms of results once the process was finalised. "Separation", to most people in western societies, would imply something that may or may not be temporary, whereas divorce is final.

    This talaq business: you mentioned that the bloke can decide to take his wife back, even if she wants out. How long does this right apply after the initial talaq?


    It's just that when using English as a medium, we made sure to use divorce referring to talaq and separation when referring to khul so that the discussion was not confusing for the students. It was also called separation when the divorce was decided by the court. There are different rulings connected with the three different scenarios. Either keeping or returning the mahr has already been mentioned. In the case of khul the iddah is only one menstrual cycle while talaq requires three. The man can take back his wife anytime under this period. However, the third time he utters talaq, and the iddah period expires, he cannot take her back nor can they remarry with a new marriage contract before the woman has had a second genuine marriage (consummated) with someone else. There are so many detailed rulings for each specific scenario and we actually spent a whole semester studying the different arkan and shurt for a marriage to be valid, when it is annulled and the rulings connected with annulment etc etc. It was interesting, but it was so obvious after the course that women are worth shit in Islam.

    Muslim men are very often aware of women's inability to divorce or attain divorce, while most Muslim women try to highlight how "wonderful" khul' is Roll Eyes It's self-delusional, I also did it until I took this course and everything was crystal clear...
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • the lies of 'Islamic Feminism'
     Reply #142 - March 23, 2014, 01:25 PM
    I was also free to chose to wear the hijab and niqab, it was my own choice and decision... Until I didn't want to wear it anymore and then wasn't free to take it off...

    I hate Muslim women in the West who enjoy all their rights and freedoms that secularism and democracy have brought them with the sweat, blood and tears of non-Muslim kafir feminists in the past. And the fight is still ongoing. I hate them because they criticize the system and ideology that gave them these privileges, privileges they would never want to give up, while supporting and promoting an ideology that would take away all those rights and make them into 2nd class citizens. And then they have the audacity to claim that every singe Muslim and Islamic society throughout history have "misunderstood" Islam and that Islam really "liberated" women far long before "feminism" ever did. I hate them, I fucking hate them, and I just wish one of them would dare to utter that crap in front of me. No, I hope it'll happen, I fantasize about it happening. I would fucking destroy them, I would destroy them so that they could never again show their faces without people remembering what complete idiots they are.

    Sorry for being so unpleasant today, it's one of those days when my tolerance for people's shit and idiocy is at its limit.

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • the lies of 'Islamic Feminism'
     Reply #143 - March 23, 2014, 01:27 PM
    Cornflower, If I lived alone I might frame that comment and hang it up in the hall.
  • the lies of 'Islamic Feminism'
     Reply #144 - March 23, 2014, 01:31 PM
    Quote from: suki on March 22, 2014, 11:33 PM
    from what i know an iman is not needed for a marriage ceremony, a pious person is ok, wali is included as the witnesess i mentioned as compulsory, wali doesnt have to be a father or brother, it can be someone who is an elder or someone respectable, in my old muslim community people got married and divorced among friends, some married at the mosque because they enjoyed the ceremony, some got married at home with family, my ex performed divorce with his group of friends as counsellors and witnesses, and i got divorced by his two brothers over the phone, his brother also divorced his wife by letter with two witnesses.. Anyway, thats all i know, and witnessed, i guess it will be totally different in an islamic country under shariah law that is very backwards..

    Peace xxooooo


    A wali is always the father, then the uncle or grandfather on the paternal side, then on the maternal side, then her son if she has a son from a previous marriage, and if there is no single male relative in her family that has the right to be her guardian, then the leader of the Muslims takes the role of wali. Some random guy is not allowed to take the role of a wali, the marriage contract could be argued to be invalid in such a case depending on the situation. If you are in a non-Muslim society, then the local imam who does the marriage contract is the wali of the woman, according to recent fatawas I've read pertaining to the matter (since a lot of Muslims live in non-Muslim societies nowadays). There are, as I mentioned, pretty detailed rules who is who and who can take what role in a Muslim society. And the ease with what a (man) can marry and divorce is not something positive, rather it undermines the woman's rights because she can be tossed away anytime.
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • the lies of 'Islamic Feminism'
     Reply #145 - March 23, 2014, 02:40 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on March 23, 2014, 03:49 AM
    Do it. Although maybe suggest that it's the Taliban making Islam look bad, rather than just calling her a raving fucktard.


    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on March 23, 2014, 03:56 AM
    I would have.

     

    It would be hard for me to speak on a topic like that without my atheist and secular views slipping out.  I'd end up having to pretend to be a "liberal" muslim and end up trying to make Islam look liberal (a view I don't even hold).
    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • the lies of 'Islamic Feminism'
     Reply #146 - March 23, 2014, 03:10 PM
    I've had a similar situation with two friends. One thought of me as a devout Muslim, the other knew me as an anti-theist. My most dreaded fear was them meeting me at the same time. Oh, that would have put me in an awkward situation.

  • the lies of 'Islamic Feminism'
     Reply #147 - March 23, 2014, 03:31 PM
    Quote from: Cornflower on March 23, 2014, 01:31 PM
    A wali is always the father, then the uncle or grandfather on the paternal side, then on the maternal side, then her son if she has a son from a previous marriage, and if there is no single male relative in her family that has the right to be her guardian, then the leader of the Muslims takes the role of wali. Some random guy is not allowed to take the role of a wali, the marriage contract could be argued to be invalid in such a case depending on the situation. If you are in a non-Muslim society, then the local imam who does the marriage contract is the wali of the woman, according to recent fatawas I've read pertaining to the matter (since a lot of Muslims live in non-Muslim societies nowadays). There are, as I mentioned, pretty detailed rules who is who and who can take what role in a Muslim society. And the ease with what a (man) can marry and divorce is not something positive, rather it undermines the woman's rights because she can be tossed away anytime.


    If there is no family male rep available as the wali then she can turn to an elder or respected person in the community or respected person at the local mosque, i didnt say a random guy off the street lol..  in many cases a family may not consent to a marriage taking place due to prejudices, therefore the couple may turn to the local community for help, they may even be in a part of the world where there is no family, mosque or community to perform marriage, alternatives are there, just not in those controlled islamic societies..   anyway, i cant bear to even think about the fake shariah law put together by saudi ape men..  gets me agitated..

    Xooooo
  • the lies of 'Islamic Feminism'
     Reply #148 - March 23, 2014, 03:43 PM
    Shariah wasn't invented by the Saudis Smiley Shariah is what it is, but when you don't have a state to enforce them, individuals are able to pick and chose what to practice. Hence, Islam for the individual can be "cosy", but as soon as shariah courts start creeping up, then the pick and choose mentality is not an option any longer Smiley

    By the way, I know a lot of Muslim try to downplay the wali thing, but even though the legal wali hinders his daughter from marrying someone due to "un-Islamic" reasons, his guardianship cannot be taken away before he's been advised and that only from the local leader. The woman can't just decide that for herself... well, if she lives in the west and don't have to turn to a court/system she can do whatever she wants... But that is not what shariah law allows Roll Eyes
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • the lies of 'Islamic Feminism'
     Reply #149 - March 23, 2014, 04:44 PM
    Quote from: Cornflower on March 23, 2014, 01:25 PM
    I was also free to chose to wear the hijab and niqab, it was my own choice and decision... Until I didn't want to wear it anymore and then wasn't free to take it off...

    I hate Muslim women in the West who enjoy all their rights and freedoms that secularism and democracy have brought them with the sweat, blood and tears of non-Muslim kafir feminists in the past. And the fight is still ongoing. I hate them because they criticize the system and ideology that gave them these privileges, privileges they would never want to give up, while supporting and promoting an ideology that would take away all those rights and make them into 2nd class citizens. And then they have the audacity to claim that every singe Muslim and Islamic society throughout history have "misunderstood" Islam and that Islam really "liberated" women far long before "feminism" ever did. I hate them, I fucking hate them, and I just wish one of them would dare to utter that crap in front of me. No, I hope it'll happen, I fantasize about it happening. I would fucking destroy them, I would destroy them so that they could never again show their faces without people remembering what complete idiots they are.

    Sorry for being so unpleasant today, it's one of those days when my tolerance for people's shit and idiocy is at its limit.




    Actually, Cornflower, this statement has caused me to feel a great and overwhelming affection for you, and I agree, wholeheartedly. I don't think you need to apologize for anything at all.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
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